Tigers confirm Ford to depart

First topic message reminder :

Now confirmed that he's leaving, probably to Bath (so much for the earlier denials)
Time will tell if he's made the right decision but as a young lad I feel his advisers have let him down.

If he want's more game time it will be interesting to see what Heathcote does if Bath is his destination. Doesn't make much sense.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/George-Ford-leave-Leicester-Tigers-summer/story-17928917-detail/story.html

I beg to differ Nathan. You have some incredibly good backs, but you can't call many of them creative or mavericks; that doesn't make them any worse at all, far from it. Tigers have a well oiled backline that is better than most, but the clear fact is that your style of play has traded the risk of some teams for a more pragmatic approach. The Allen v 36 is an ideal example. 36 is a far more creative player, but Allen has been your chosen 12 for some time due to his excellent defensive work.

In terms of Ford's game time, it is a pretty straight forward argument as far as I'm concerned. You're stating that if a 19 year old, learning the game, is better than the England FH he'll get the game time. Common sense suggests he is not going to be your first choice 10. He needs to know he'll get a good run of games even if he makes mistakes, as this will develop him. If he is going to Bath, he will be competing against another young FH but you would strongly suggest he would be able to cement his starting place there.

If you look at Freddie Burns, which Ford may well have done to. He was second choice behind Nicky Robinson. Robinson was playing very well for Glaws, but the decision was made to not re-sign Robinson in favour of giving Burns regular game time in order to develop his clear potential. It took a season, with a fair few mistakes, but this year it has yielded dividends. Ford is not likely to get this support at Tigers with his competition being the England FH, whereas, Bath are far more likely to give him this opportunity.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bring on Farrell for the kicks then ship him off again...abuse the blood replacement rule...

Given your name and that comment are you Dean Richards perchance ?

HongKongCherry wrote:I beg to differ Nathan. You have some incredibly good backs, but you can't call many of them creative or mavericks; that doesn't make them any worse at all, far from it. Tigers have a well oiled backline that is better than most, but the clear fact is that your style of play has traded the risk of some teams for a more pragmatic approach. The Allen v 36 is an ideal example. 36 is a far more creative player, but Allen has been your chosen 12 for some time due to his excellent defensive work.

In terms of Ford's game time, it is a pretty straight forward argument as far as I'm concerned. You're stating that if a 19 year old, learning the game, is better than the England FH he'll get the game time. Common sense suggests he is not going to be your first choice 10. He needs to know he'll get a good run of games even if he makes mistakes, as this will develop him. If he is going to Bath, he will be competing against another young FH but you would strongly suggest he would be able to cement his starting place there.

If you look at Freddie Burns, which Ford may well have done to. He was second choice behind Nicky Robinson. Robinson was playing very well for Glaws, but the decision was made to not re-sign Robinson in favour of giving Burns regular game time in order to develop his clear potential. It took a season, with a fair few mistakes, but this year it has yielded dividends. Ford is not likely to get this support at Tigers with his competition being the England FH, whereas, Bath are far more likely to give him this opportunity.

but those backs have been a part of the team that has scored more tries than any other team in the last 2 or 3 seasons, hardly shows a pragmatic approach. Your example doesn't really apply as the reason 36 was usually on the bench was because he was a utility player so the players aren't really a like for like comparison.

Ford has has a good run of games this season, he did last season too. This season his run of games were pretty poor form, he would of got another chance when Flood is of with England. If he played well Cockers would of played him ahead of Flood.

Ford is second choice but has still played in 13 games this season. He would hit 20 at least if he opted to stay.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ford is second choice but has still played in 13 games this season. He would hit 20 at least if he opted to stay.

Out of interest how many of those 13 are starts and how many have been in the HC?

Ford obviously doesn't rate the HC if he's going to Bath!

I think It's 9 or 10 starts with two starts in the HEC and one appearence off the bench in the HEC. I could understand if he was only getting 10 minutes at the end of games and was in good form but he is playing full 80 mins most of the games he plays and his form has been average.

Bowden is more experienced but Ford has progressed past him in the pecking order and is allowed to challenge Flood. He is only 19 I could imagine if he was 21 and the situation was the same he'd get itchy feet but at only 19 he's very eager.

George Carlin wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:Quote Beshocked: "Lost a lot of respect for Heathcote for taking the far easier route to international rugby."

I don't think you can blame him for that. Is it a tenuous connection he has to Scotland?

What kind of respect do you have for Barritt?

Heathcote is qualified due to the rather 'direct' route of having been born in Inverness.

Beshocked - to answer your question, yes, it would bother me if there was the slightest chance that my team mates thought I was getting selected on anything other than merit. But what the hey, that's just me.

That is a little disingenuous George. His Dad was a RAF pilot stationed at Kinloss. He moved back to England at 3. It's like certain English fans claiming George North is English. Glad for the lad but let's not overrate his Scottishness too much!

Interview with Cockerill and Gold taken from the beeb.

Cockerill;

I have been told by him and his advisers he is going to sign for Bath. Bath will deny it because they have to because [if they have done a deal already] it's an illegal approach.

I am not sure how it works with a father talking to a son about joining when he's the coach of another club. Is that an illegal approach or is there a loophole because he's his father? I don't know.

It's OK. I'm over it. George doesn't want to play for us next year that's OK. I can cope with it and we move on

He'll be a Bath player next season. There are all the protocols around that which is fine. They will have to pay compensation. He is very close to his father and wants to play in the same team as his father coaches. You can understand it. That's life.

We have made every effort to keep George, Cockerill added. We have spent a lot of time, effort and money developing him. He has chosen to leave because he wants to play every week.

I can live with that. From a Leicester end it's disappointing and you want your best young players to stay. But he has plenty of game time. Floody is a very good player and is in the side on merit and we pick on merit.
If guys choose to move on because they don't want to fight for their spot then that's fine. I can cope with that. The rules apply to everybody and you earn your place in the side and have to fight for your spot.

I have a lot of time for George. He is here until the end of the season and he will play when he is needed. He can't sign for anybody else because regulations dictate he can't. I think the club and myself have done everything we can. In my opinion it's poor advice but I would say that because he's leaving us. I'm not begging anybody to sign for Leicester. We have put a good offer on the table and have gone through all the scenarios and he's played plenty of rugby this season but he wants to play every week.

I am not going to guarantee that to anybody, that's the cultural core values we have. We would love George to stay. We would happily do a deal but at this point he is leaving.

From Gary Gold;

If George became available he's a type of player we would have a look at, Of course we know who he is and I do rate him. But unfortunately he falls under the England Under-20 remit and nobody is allowed to speak to him - not us, not anybody - and it's irrelevant that his father is here.

Cockerill seems to be alluding to Bath approaching Ford illegally, i think he raises an interesting question regarding the fact that Ford dad is at Bath. Is it a father son "chat" or is it an approach?

nathan wrote:Your example doesn't really apply as the reason 36 was usually on the bench was because he was a utility player so the players aren't really a like for like comparison.

But he isn't a utility player, he's a 12.

But he isn't a utility player, he's a 12

He is actually a really good 13 as well which is often overlooked. He continues to play 10 and 12 and played all those positions plus the odd appearance a 15 whilst at Bedford (or I was led to believe). Just because he'd fit the mould for what we want from an England 12 doesn't mean he isn't a utility option.

Back to Ford, Cockers clearly blames the advice of the agent and George's father for the move and in the full interview (I heard it on radio Leicester earlier) leaves the door open for George to change his mind and stay on.

Given the paucity of classy 12's using Twelvtrees at 13 is a terrible waste.

There were some pre-AI games where Ford just didn't get onto the pitch as Flood played the full game. For what it is worth I think that's when Tiger's lost him. He's seen how Cockerill likes to run things, and wants to go somewhere where he'd be more likely to be first choice. I hope he goes to Saints, but I guess it looks like Bath.

It's confirmed Bath. He won't touch Saints after what happened to his brother there. Pre AIs he was used as a sub in a couple of games and played a full game vs Sale away. I think he suffers slightly from Cockers dislike for changing his midfield in close games. He often changes the props, a winger and the number 8 but rarely the half backs, second row or centres unless we have a serious lead.

Depends on how much game time Ford thinks he needs.

I'd also disagree Twelvetrees would be wasted at 13, he's a very good 13 and Barritt has proven himself a good international 12.

Only just seen this news. Stupid decision from Ford. He was in exactly the right place at this time in career, and training with Ben Youngs, Toby Flood and Anthony Allen perfect for development. I actually thought the Tigers were giving him pretty good opportunities generally.

Are Bath ditching the mighty Steven Donald then?

Donlads replacing Sexton at Leinster

Strange decision tbh, not to say he won't prove everyone wrong over time but Tigers imo are one of those clubs that offers its players the intensity and consistency playing at a high level which prepares them for international honours more thoroughly than many others would.

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's confirmed Bath. He won't touch Saints after what happened to his brother there. Pre AIs he was used as a sub in a couple of games and played a full game vs Sale away. I think he suffers slightly from Cockers dislike for changing his midfield in close games. He often changes the props, a winger and the number 8 but rarely the half backs, second row or centres unless we have a serious lead.

Depends on how much game time Ford thinks he needs.

I'd also disagree Twelvetrees would be wasted at 13, he's a very good 13 and Barritt has proven himself a good international 12.

I'd question if 36 would be fast enough for an international 13. He certainly has the skill set, or the ability to develop it to fit a 13.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I'd also disagree Twelvetrees would be wasted at 13, he's a very good 13 and Barritt has proven himself a good international 12.

There's no evidence that anyone other than Cockerill thinks the most sensible place to deploy the most talented English 12 of his generation is at 13.

Compared to Farrell he's BOD

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's confirmed Bath. He won't touch Saints after what happened to his brother there. Pre AIs he was used as a sub in a couple of games and played a full game vs Sale away. I think he suffers slightly from Cockers dislike for changing his midfield in close games. He often changes the props, a winger and the number 8 but rarely the half backs, second row or centres unless we have a serious lead.

Depends on how much game time Ford thinks he needs.

I'd also disagree Twelvetrees would be wasted at 13, he's a very good 13 and Barritt has proven himself a good international 12.

What happened to his brother there?

My memory of it was that he went there as the 3rd choice 10 having been the 2nd choice 10 at Leeds, played badly for their A team so went back to Leeds a year later after they were relegated and were able to offer him the 1st choice 10 role having lost Ceiron Thomas to the Pirates, probably hoping to come straight back up in that position the next season.


I don't know if Northampton are looking for a new 10 (as an outsider I think they should be), but even though Ford doesn't seem available anymore I think King joining them next season could make them a lot more attractive on the market than they were before. Might be why they succeeded in signing Kahn.


Regarding George, as is I don't think joining Bath is an improvement on being at Tigers, but it may make a bit more sense if we see players moving on.

I'm a little concerned at some of the recent moves made by young English players. B Vunipola for example looked like he was developing well at Wasps playing in a really dynamic team. He's gone to a better side, but one playing a lot of stodge in my opinion, i don't think he'll develop any better at Sarries.

Ford may get more game time, which will be valuable, but playing for a team that looks like it has no game plan, no structure and frankly, no coaching, is a little worrying. I guess his defence should improve at least.

I suppose time will tell.

I think you've got an interesting duality between Ford and Vunipola. No disrespect to Bath or Wasps, but on the one hand you've got a squad player at a top 4 club (regularly in the HC and play-offs) moving to a "second tier" club (competing for a HC place, outside shot at the play-offs) to become a regular first team player, and on the other hand you've got a first team player at a "second tier" club moving to become a squad player at a top 4 club.

Looking at Ford, he obviously feels he's at the stage where he needs to be playing first team rugby, but I would disagree. I think he can learn a lot playing behind Flood and filling in during the International breaks and when Flood is injured. As some have said, if he were a couple of years older you could see the logic in moving, but at his age time is on his side and I think he should possibly have stuck it out.

Looking at Vunipola, he obviously feels that if he moves he can break into the first team at Saracens and become their go-to guy at 8. It may be a slight backward step in respect to the minutes he'll get on the pitch, but I think he's seeing it as a one step back to take two steps forward kind of move. Plus there could be players leaving Saracens that will make his path clearer. I think he could have possibly held on at Wasps for one more year, as he has been called into the England squad and it's looking likely that Wasps will get into the Heineken Cup and possibly even the play-offs.

However, in both these cases there was an element of a family connection in the move, and there is also the question of the respective financial packages on offer.

To be fair to Billy and Saracens as well; Saracens do like their no8 to be involved with everything in attack, just look at Joubert he gets plenty of ball each game and with their flankers covering for him he can roam all over the shop. Plus the Saracens pack now that they've stolen JJ will be far more dominant then what he's used to so he could actually move there and end up getting even more chances to shine ball in hand.

More money with better perks, closer to family, more chance of top flight European rugby and winning trophies, much better facilities and same if not better international prospects. The lad is from bristol (kinda) he can thank wasps for getting him to where he is but he doesn't really owe them the loyalty to turn down that kind of offer from sarries. Ernst Joubert is 32 so his powers will be on the wane soon, Billy has the potential to be one of the best 8's in the world...he will nail down that starting jersey and when he's off with england or gets fatigued Joubert is one hell of a backup and also a great mentor in the fine art of 8 play.

yappysnap wrote:To be fair to Billy and Saracens as well; Saracens do like their no8 to be involved with everything in attack, just look at Joubert he gets plenty of ball each game and with their flankers covering for him he can roam all over the shop. Plus the Saracens pack now that they've stolen JJ will be far more dominant then what he's used to so he could actually move there and end up getting even more chances to shine ball in hand.

I think he'll learn a good deal on defensive work-rate, Sarries pack seems very fit and abrasive. But they also don't spread it as much. With Wasps his work-rate had to improve as the back-row needs to get all over the park. He was also running a lot of ball back from deep. With Sarries that ball will go off the park, and most of his carrying will be done in much tighter channels. That may do wonders for that part of his game, but at the moment Wasps' game seems to encourage him to go both over AND around people, his footwork for a man his size is excellent and he's not bad at finding a gap.

He was developing a real all-round game at Wasps, with the greatest of respect to Sarries (by that I mean none ), they're great at what they do, but that's pretty limited. Fingers crossed it'll all work out, a plus is he'll quickly be up against some big French packs in the HC, something I think he needs.

Thing is I don't think Sarries will just constrict their players to a limited game play. They've worked on their defence and set piece because they win most games. Remember they've built themselves up from a pretty average side. I don't doubt that as they bring through the players they will work to get the most out of them and get them to win.

What hood 83 says makes a lot of sense, sarries game plan is a lot tighter than most and Billy probably won't get as many chances in space, just like Ashton doesn't since moving from saints. He Will learn the Saracens defensive patterns adopted by England however which bodes well for the England team, I just hope he's still given regular opportunitys for 1 on 1s cause that's where he's most exciting to watch!

I have no idea whether Ford has made the right move or not. Nevertheless, there are a few things which might have been going through his mind.

Ford is younger than Owen Farrell but they are often spoken about as the same generation. Unless Farrell has a long term future in the centre, Ford has to get his place. Ford may have won IRB Junior Player but Farrell was (albeit surprisingly) up for the main event, has an All Black Test scalp to his name, and may even win a Lions place.

Farrell is competing with Charlie Hodgson at flyhalf but the senior Saracens man has already called time on his international career. Ford is up against Flood who is still also a major competitor for the England spot. I should probably count how many England positions are being contested by players at the same club but it can't always be comfortable.

When you consider that Ford is also aware of competition from Burns and knows that Goode is a converted 10, there are a few reasons why the status quo didn't look so attractive over the near term.

Surely there's no better way of proving you should be the incumbant England 10 than displacing the more experienced international first choice. Tigers are ruthless, the form player is selected and with Flood in average form there was every chance for Ford to show he was up to the challenge. He didn't though. Dan Cole forced his way past White and then Castro and in doing so has nailed the England shirt down for the forseeable future. Competition breeds development.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Surely there's no better way of proving you should be the incumbant England 10 than displacing the more experienced international first choice. Tigers are ruthless, the form player is selected and with Flood in average form there was every chance for Ford to show he was up to the challenge. He didn't though. Dan Cole forced his way past White and then Castro and in doing so has nailed the England shirt down for the forseeable future. Competition breeds development.

+1

It would be great if Ford could cement his Tigers spot by outplaying Toby Flood.

It's worth pointing out, though, that Owen Farrell didn't get his run at number 10 with Saracens by outplaying the incumbent. He was out on loan at Bedford when he was called back after his club had an injury crisis at flyhalf. Who knows how quickly Saracens would have brought him along without that opportunity. Would Lancaster have still selected him without that top flight Premiership experience?

As an England supporter, I've got mixed feelings about Ford at Leicester because I don't want Flood to be losing out on valuable game time either. Flood might seem like a veteran with 53 caps, but he's actually a month younger than Jonathan Sexton. He has a good few years left in him if his body holds up so it's wouldn't have been much use for the national team if he'd been second in the pecking order instead of Ford.

Although not in the same class, I had similar reservations about Geraghty and Myler both vying for the 10 jersey at Saints.

The comparison with Dan Cole doesn't really work since, as others have pointed out, props are always going to get regularly game time as replacements. As a fly half, you need experience controlling a game for extended spells in big games, not just cameos.

Rugbyfan, if Ford managed to force his way past Flood then Toby would probably leave. He'd get game time elsewhere. With Flood's contract up in 2014 I almost expect him to extend for a year then go ro France.

With his contract only to 2014 you've also got to question Ford's motives, it's a bizarre turn around given the previous interviews I've heard from him.

Rugby fan IMO most players make their breakthrough because of injury to rivals.

E.g. look at England. Someone has to play in the no 13 shirt with Manu Tuilagi out injured. The 15 shirt as a example as well.

Flood must have been injured at times but Ford doesn't seem to have made enough of an impression. He's young though.

Farrell Jr is a player that makes the most of an opportunity to an injured player - e.g. win vs NZ.

Ford's just a kid, barely out of nappies. Why not give him a little time to grow up and develop as a player before putting him in competition for the England 10 jumper? Seems like we are rushing things just a bit, no?

doctor_grey wrote:Ford's just a kid, barely out of nappies. Why not give him a little time to grow up and develop as a player before putting him in competition for the England 10 jumper? Seems like we are rushing things just a bit, no?

That's true but it seems that if Ford is moving he believes he's not making quick enough progress at Leicester.

He will be 20 soon. He's no longer a little baby. Still plenty of time for him though.

beshocked wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Ford's just a kid, barely out of nappies. Why not give him a little time to grow up and develop as a player before putting him in competition for the England 10 jumper? Seems like we are rushing things just a bit, no?

That's true but it seems that if Ford is moving he believes he's not making quick enough progress at Leicester.

He will be 20 soon. He's no longer a little baby. Still plenty of time for him though.

Not because he'll get payed more at bath then?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Rugbyfan, if Ford managed to force his way past Flood then Toby would probably leave.

If Flood did think that way, and there's a fair chance you are right, then it would suggest the Tigers environment isn't ideal for sustaining two top level England fly-halves. It could have been tricky for Farrell too at Saracens until Hodgson decided to retire from internationals.

Ford hasn't shown enough class for Leicester to favour him over Flood but that highlights his dilemma. Flood is the default choice and Ford will have to outplay him, not just match him. He has a better chance of doing that if he is playing top games regularly but that's exactly what he won't be given until he has shown he deserves it. By contrast, Farrell didn't win his promotion; he was in the right spot and took his chance well.

You hope that Ford will take his chances too. However, it's a different proposition to be called up, like Farrell, to help your side out during an injury crisis and to be given games by your club as if every one is an audition for the leading role. It's easy to say that class players will always rise to the challenge but we know how much luck and confidence play a role in international sport.

Not all international duels are as even as Kyran Bracken vs Matt Dawson, with both players getting major game time in key Tests. You can be consistently top class but never get near the opportunities of your major rivals if the cards fall differently for you. Just ask Gary Rees, Stuart Barnes, Simon Shaw and James Simpson Daniel among others. Nick Evans is another useful case in point as far as fly half is concerned.

In the future, we are probably going to be talking about some of our current generation of full backs as "lost internationals". Delon Armitage, Ben Foden, Alex Goode, and Mike Brown are all pretty handy at the back and I noticed Will Greenwood arguing that Luke Arscott should be Lions wild card. No matter how many we try to convert into wingers, we'll still see some of that group end their careers without the caps of their peers.

At flyhalf, Lancaster has Flood, Farrell and Burns up front with Ford in the Saxons. I'm sure Ford is only too aware that Cipriani and Geraghty were once spoken of as the future for English rugby. And this isn't age group rugby, where people ahead of you graduate out of direct competition. No-one gives way for you in the real world.

I don't think Leicester have done anything wrong by Ford but I'm not sure he is doing anything wrong by them either, in the modern rugby world. He needs a consistent top flight run with his club's first choice players. Leicester just can't offer that to him without undermining Flood and, potentially, their own immediate prospects.

Mind you, it's another matter altogether whether Bath is the right destination.

Farrell Jnr also has the substantial advantage of his dad being an England coach as well as the fly half that is keeping him out of the 10 berth at club level being retired.

Beshocked how many games has Farrell started at 10 this season?

I could understand the want to move if he was a little older ala Twelvetrees (though the way his agent went about that was not good for Billy's reputation). At 19 he is still developing as evidenced by some of his displays this season. He is into double figures of games for this season is learning from the uncumbant England 10. He's had consecutive games and has played in both the HEC and important AP games (vs Glaws). His dad has clearly offered some guarentees and with Bath's spending power his agent no doubt encouraged him to move.

PSW will he be played more at Bath though?

Ford needs to play well.

If you don't play well you get dropped.

Farrell Jr didn't win his promotion because of the circumstances. Glen Jackson had retired. Hougaard was the starting fly half but loved to kick more than even Farrell Jr. Hougaard picked up an injury.

Saracens needed a fly half and Farrell Jr stepped up to the challenge.

Top clubs like Leicester and Saracens need two decent fly half options in case one gets injured. Especially when challenging for trophies.


One question that should be asked: Is Ford too lightweight? According to his Leicester profile he is only 5,9 and 12st 8lb.

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/leicester_tigers_senior_squad.php?player=88441&includeref=dynamic


Compare that to Owen Farrell who is 6,2 and 15 stone,2lb.

Ford probably is not too lightweight to play 10 - and if you have seen the Matt Hampson 2013 Calendar (Ford is Mr january) the muscle bulk he has built up suggests that 12 1/2st may be innacurate now. His defenc has not been a problem this seaso - and certainly he seems to tackle better than Flood, who is appreciably bigger.

However he really is just a 10. Without the pace/power needed to play 13/15 nor the power to play at 12.

This means that unlike Burns who started for Glaws at 15, and Farrell who has played more at centre in the last season and a half, that 10 is the only option. his goalkicking has not been good enough to oust what has been a rather lacklustre Flood.

Payed not played.

He will be payed more as he wont be limited by Tigers strict wage structure ( not a capped international? 6 bags of peanuts and a shiny ha'penny)

As for his development and playing time as has been pointed out this and other threads at yawnsome length hes getting plenty at Tigers currently and more than others at his age did ( Ford Farrel). For a 19 year old to be 4th in line to throne ( with noone else on the horizon considered worthy of even training with the Saxons) is pretty damn good really.
Maybe he should look at guys like Geraghty and Cipriani...chucked in to England shirts at a young age, then disappearing off the face of the planet.

Maybe hes looked at Baths chances of Amlin cup glory next season and realised its more likely he'll win that with them than the HC with Tigers?

Who knows. He will be getting payed more there though.

Your point about his frame and physical presence is fair and one that is constantly cited as a reason he may never be suitable for international rugby. Mind they said the same about Neil Back.
Perhaps Bath have promised him a bucket of HGH and some platform shoes?

Sam I think it's about 6 games. Do you honestly think that Farrell Sr is picking Farrell Jr just because he's his daddy? He dropped him for the AIs afterall.

Oh and don't forget his perceived ability to play in the centres means the Saracens coaches pick him there in quite a few games.

Londontiger I agree to a certain extent but when a fly half is forced to make more tackles it can take a toll on their body. This certainly becomes more of an issue at international level.

Ford has not yet had to face this.

PSW to be fair it just tells you how poor the likes of Cipriani,Myler,Lamb etc are.

Not many fly halves these days actually seem to do the basics well.

True about Neil Back but remember he was surrounded by a beast of a pack both for Leicester and England. Would he have made such an impact now for example?

Not now the rules have changed to ban blatant cheating no

l I presume you mean the hand of Back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQlJ8K7XjQc

Neil Back was an excellent backrower though. An integral part of the holy trinity.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:As for his development and playing time as has been pointed out this and other threads at yawnsome length hes getting plenty at Tigers currently and more than others at his age did ( Ford Farrel). For a 19 year old to be 4th in line to throne

PSW, you can't talk about age as if there is a natural progression for a younger man to to take over from an older man. Players don't just compete with their immediate age group, you are on the line against everyone in a ten year age band. Ford has to consider now whether he is getting the same club opportunities as Burns, Farrell and Flood. He isn't.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:As for his development and playing time as has been pointed out this and other threads at yawnsome length hes getting plenty at Tigers currently and more than others at his age did ( Ford Farrel). For a 19 year old to be 4th in line to throne

PSW, you can't talk about age as if there is a natural progression for a younger man to to take over from an older man. Players don't just compete with their immediate age group, you are on the line against everyone in a ten year age band. Ford has to consider now whether he is getting the same club opportunities as Burns, Farrell and Flood. He isn't.

But its not unreasonable for a 19 year old to not be getting in with that group ...thats my point. He has to accept that you cant just become a world great overnight, or at least that its extremely rare players do, especially if you arent actually that good or playing that well. Compared to Clegg (older, had the saxons place before Ford) who sat behind Nick Evans and now Botica hes done very well for game time.
In terms of his development hes already doing well to have pushed ahead of the likes of Myler, Clegg, Cipriani and a whoever else. Hes playing more first team rugby and the saxons fly half at a younger age than the guys ahead of him were. Its not like he isnt on a course thats pushing him in the right direction. Farrel battling it out with Hogdson ( and previouslyu Houghaard and Alex goode too ...oh look hes in the senior england squad as well) didnt stop his development, Fords only had competition from flood at Tigers and he was likley to miss a third of the season even before injuries and rest due to international commitments.
Nor is it it guaranteed that he will get more at Bath as has been pointed out. Certainly less chance of HC rugby, playoff rugby or the chances like Tuilagi got to shine in friendlies against SA and Aus ( which is what really showed he had the big match mentality to step up against the best sides in the world )
What he will get at Bath is his dad on the coaching staff and a better pay packet. The opportunities were there..and unless they were planning to sign another senior 10 will continue to be there... at Tigers, he just hasnt taken them. Hes still ahead of where he might reasonably have expected in terms of his England development all the same.

From an England perspective, I just don't see what is gained by having one of our brightest prospects in a key position like fly-half warming the bench instead of playing.

Like John Callard said the other day, We should be looking to get these guys playing regular premiership rugby - it's the only way they'll learn.

Mawhis,

Again for a player at his age and stage of development he is getting a lot of firs team rugby. By the same Logic Farrell should have quit Saracens years ago, yet managed to get to England first choice and a strong Lions contender) whilst hardly playing there at all.
Ford will get as many if not more chances of playing in top games at Tigers than he is likely to at a perenial mid table club where he has no greater guarantee of being permanent first choice.

id also argue that endless hours of getting smashed about ion muddy jeff fields is actually not in a young players best interests , and often one of the major reasons why many england players have ended up as crocks by there mid 20s. Dan Coles workload has been very carefully managed playing behind Castro, and he has stayed relatively injury free as a result. hes also had the time and energy to train hard and build his phsique, strength and technique...something youd hope Ford would get a chance to continue to do as well.

Moving for a better paycheck is not neccasarilly in a young englands players best long term interests IMO. However he has made an informed decision, good luck to him.

PSW, you can't talk about age as if there is a natural progression for a younger man to to take over from an older man. Players don't just compete with their immediate age group, you are on the line against everyone in a ten year age band. Ford has to consider now whether he is getting the same club opportunities as Burns, Farrell and Flood. He isn't.

According to Beshocked Farrell has started 6 games at 10 Ford is one away from double that. At 19 Burns was alternating between the bench and full back with occasional games at 10. Ford has been getting steadily more time at 10 for Tigers after getting his debut for the first team at 16.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

PSW, you can't talk about age as if there is a natural progression for a younger man to to take over from an older man. Players don't just compete with their immediate age group, you are on the line against everyone in a ten year age band. Ford has to consider now whether he is getting the same club opportunities as Burns, Farrell and Flood. He isn't.

According to Beshocked Farrell has started 6 games at 10 Ford is one away from double that. At 19 Burns was alternating between the bench and full back with occasional games at 10. Ford has been getting steadily more time at 10 for Tigers after getting his debut for the first team at 16.

I meant club games of course. Plus most of them are the big ones like Leicester,Quins,Saints, Munster, Racing Metro away etc.

Ford doesn't get the crunch clashes. Plus of course Farrell Jr will get less gametime at 10 when he's on England duty.