Scotland squad for the 6 Nations

by Solid8 Thu 24 Jan 2013, 3:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

Edit - Original 1000 or so posts on this thread are here https://www.606v2.com/t38845p950-scotland-squad-for-the-6-nations - KiwiPete

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Been browsing some Rugby news sites...

Regarding the delay in announcing the Scotland captain, Johnson can't really be thinking about playing Stroks at 6 instead of brown can he?

No but there may be other players he feels could be better captains, given the strong representation of Glasgow in the squad, Kellock maybe.

by reallybored Sun 27 Jan 2013, 12:52 pm

Would like to see Laidlaw as captain, tough on Brown but he doesn't talk to the ref enough and we're going to need the ref on our side. Laidlaw is our Petit General In the same mould as Parra or Yachvila, he should be the controlling pivot in the team.

We should target Marler because the guy stills has discipline issues, hopefully Murray and either Hamilton or Kellock can wide him up.

Would like to see;

1 - Grant
2 - MacArthur
3 - Murray
4 - Gray
5 - Hamilton
6 - Harley
7 - Brown
8 - Beattie

9 - Laidlaw (c)
10 - Jackson
11 - Visser
12 - Scott
13 - Lamont
14 - Maitland
15 - Hogg

16 - Ford
17 - Dickinson
18 - Low
19 - Kellock
20 - Denton
21 - Pyrgos
22 - Heathcote
23 - Evans

Don't care about how much we've been written off, that's still a good team and decent bench. If they can show the same level of graft that Glasgow do in defence we'll do alright. England are a very good team but they won't look as special if Tuilagi is out.

by bsando Sun 27 Jan 2013, 1:16 pm

Agree with ya on Tuilagi. He is a huge part of England's recent successes in my opinion. If he is out I would definitely be willing to say that our chances just got a lot better. Still gonna be a huge contest though, I just really hope we can compete to a reasonable standard.

I personally don't like the idea of Laidlaw being captain, mainly because he is the captain of a team who are losing every game at the moment. I'd prefer someone like Hamilton, Brown or Kellock captaining Scotland, but I agree that Brown was a little tentative last year as El Capatan. I doubt if Laidlaw will be starting every game anyway, he's only just been switched back to scrum half and could potentially struggle to perform in that position. Would be a risky choice I think. I've had several disagreements on here about Laidlaw and his skills as a player. I think he's been a big part of Edinburgh's rubbish season where as many blame Edinburgh's game plan as the cause. Guess we'll see in the 6 nations, because I highly doubt Johnson will have Laidlaw doing the same things as Bradley has, ie, kicking the ball away when we have good possession/chances. Hopefully he'll perform well and mix his distribution up nicely, only doing chip kicks and grubbers when its definitely on and players are in a position to chase.

by UlstermaninGlasgow Sun 27 Jan 2013, 1:55 pm

reallybored wrote:Would like to see Laidlaw as captain, tough on Brown but he doesn't talk to the ref enough and we're going to need the ref on our side. Laidlaw is our Petit General In the same mould as Parra or Yachvila, he should be the controlling pivot in the team.

We should target Marler because the guy stills has discipline issues, hopefully Murray and either Hamilton or Kellock can wide him up.

Would like to see;

1 - Grant
2 - MacArthur
3 - Murray
4 - Gray
5 - Hamilton
6 - Harley
7 - Brown
8 - Beattie

9 - Laidlaw (c)
10 - Jackson
11 - Visser
12 - Scott
13 - Lamont
14 - Maitland
15 - Hogg

16 - Ford
17 - Dickinson
18 - Low
19 - Kellock
20 - Denton
21 - Pyrgos
22 - Heathcote
23 - Evans

Don't care about how much we've been written off, that's still a good team and decent bench. If they can show the same level of graft that Glasgow do in defence we'll do alright. England are a very good team but they won't look as special if Tuilagi is out.

I'd stick Denton ahead of Hartley, not because he's better but with Brown, McArthur and Grant there's plenty of choppers in the team and giving an extra carrying option is never a bad thing. Evans should be nowhere near the bench, either Dunbar or Horne for me... And to tell the truth I'd start Dunbar and put Lamont on the bench, especially if Tuilagi is out! Heathcote has been the in form man for Bath and fully deserves a shot on the bench.

Anyone think Richie should be on the bench and Al should start?? He's not exactly setting the heather on fire for Bath, and as much as he was decent in the AIs, it's a full 3 months later and he still hasn't been good. Even Vernon is outplaying him!

by bsando Sun 27 Jan 2013, 2:17 pm

Haven't seen enough of Sale games to have a real opinion on Gray, but the one game I watched him play in he looked alright to me. I think with familiar faces around him he'll do just fine again so I'd risk starting him. But if he doesn't perform well I think Kellock deserves a shot vs Italy, he's been good for Glasgow. But Gray/Hamilton in scrum = much better in my view.

by bsando Sun 27 Jan 2013, 2:21 pm

I read somewhere that Gordon Ross was being bigged up by his coach for a start in Scotland Squad after just earning his 100th cap for London Welsh. So after researching this bloke it seems like he has been totally ignored by Scottish coaches over the last 6 years when I think he may well have been a much better choice than either Godman or Parks. Shame really, he's obviously a talented player who probably deserved more games in the Blue jersey.

by Glas a du Sun 27 Jan 2013, 3:07 pm

Lyn Jones would know. He discovered the backbone of three Grand Slams whilst at Neath and the Ospreys.

by jimbopip Sun 27 Jan 2013, 3:11 pm

While musing on our chances of giving England a "doing" I asked myself what if we started by stating the blatantly obvious i.e. who are the players who own their jerseys? That is who are obviously outstanding or are well ahead of any alternatives in the current squad (not the same thing).
1.Ryan Grant.
3.
4. Big Richie
5.
6.
7.
8. Beattie the younger
9.
10.
11. Visser ( on try scoring- couldn't tackle a fish supper as they say)
12.
13.
14.
15. Hogg
This either means we have four players who could walk into any 6N squad OR that 11 of our places have no genuine contenders. Really bored's comparison of Laidlaw with, lots of, French scrum halves/petit generals misses the small but crucial point that they were excellent scrummies first and gobby little Gaels second. Laidlaw just hasn't shown enough at 9, yet.
I think that several players have the opportunity to claim a jersey, yes Pat MacArthur your time has come, and for some this could/should be their last chance; Big Al, Throwaway Ford, Rev Euan to name a few.

by bsando Sun 27 Jan 2013, 4:18 pm

Glas a du wrote:Lyn Jones would know. He discovered the backbone of three Grand Slams whilst at Neath and the Ospreys.

Really?? Bugger. Maybe thats why we've been so crap the last decade Whistle

by bsando Sun 27 Jan 2013, 4:30 pm

I agree Jimbopip! Especially Ford, he's been a solid starter for a long time now, I think he may at risk of being nudged out by MacArthur this 6 Nations if MacArthur gets to start vs England plays the way he has been playing for Glasgow.

Interesting thing about that list of yours is I bet by this time next year there'll be more filled spots than blanks.

by Cryptoyourisan Sun 27 Jan 2013, 5:25 pm

bsando wrote:I read somewhere that Gordon Ross was being bigged up by his coach for a start in Scotland Squad after just earning his 100th cap for London Welsh. So after researching this bloke it seems like he has been totally ignored by Scottish coaches over the last 6 years when I think he may well have been a much better choice than either Godman or Parks. Shame really, he's obviously a talented player who probably deserved more games in the Blue jersey.

It is a shame that Gordon Ross never played for Scotland again after 2006 but not being able to find a regular starting place at the right club after Leeds were relegated in 2006 played a big part in his omission from Scottish squads. I had also heard that he had a bad attitude in training so Frank Hadden was reluctant to include him for that reason also. In any case, bringing back a 35-year-old, could-have-been is exactly what Scotland need to avoid doing. It is a bit daft when you think that Scotland had Townsend, Hodge and Ross available during that era but none of them were capped into their 30s.

by jimbopip Sun 27 Jan 2013, 7:27 pm

bsando wrote:I agree Jimbopip! Especially Ford, he's been a solid starter for a long time now, I think he may at risk of being nudged out by MacArthur this 6 Nations if MacArthur gets to start vs England plays the way he has been playing for Glasgow.

Interesting thing about that list of yours is I bet by this time next year there'll be more filled spots than blanks.

I believe, lord do I believe, that Maitland, Dunbar, hopefully Scott, Fozzy, Harley, still have a lot of progress in them, Horne if he keeps going at the present rate. The rest as they say is silence.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun 27 Jan 2013, 9:29 pm

People - believe in Jacko - he will deliver. Wink

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 27 Jan 2013, 9:31 pm

Have the Scottish fans gone off Denton? I still think he has the potential to be fantastic.

by **RDW** Sun 27 Jan 2013, 9:34 pm

I've not! I think he'll get picked and will be a standout player

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 27 Jan 2013, 9:35 pm

If he has a good 6 nations he could still be in contention for the Lions number 8.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun 27 Jan 2013, 9:39 pm

I have. If he (Denton) gets selected ahead of Beattie it will be an complete disgrace. I.E. back to the Bath Bell End days of friends over form !

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 27 Jan 2013, 9:49 pm

Denton plays 6 and 8 though. Has Beattie suddenly come back to form or something? Seems an extreme reaction to suddenly call him back in for Denton. Who despite being inconsistent at times, has been a one man army some games I have seen Edinburgh play this season. I think he has the potential to be one of the greatest 8s in the world.

by **RDW** Sun 27 Jan 2013, 10:08 pm

Totally agree Rory. yes beattie has been playing well supposedly but most people on here are basing their opinions having barely actually seen him play!

As you say the past 4 or 5 games for Edinburgh Denton's actually played really well in a poor team.

It's a real selection dilema anyway but I agree that it's maybe a little hasty to disregard one of Scotland's best players last year for someone who has been in international wilderness for 2 years!

by **RDW** Sun 27 Jan 2013, 10:09 pm

And for 21st to class it as a disgrace if Denton got picked over Beattie, well, there's no surprise he goes all irrational on us when an Edinburgh player is involved!

by IanBru Sun 27 Jan 2013, 10:10 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Has Beattie suddenly come back to form or something?

Oh yes, very much so.

Cautiously, I'd say he's looking back to his 2010-era best. His form at Montpellier has been so good that he is keeping Mamuka Gorgodze out of the no.8 shirt (pushing him to lock). Played in all six of Montpellier's HC matches this year, scoring two tries and winning man of the match twice.

by IanBru Sun 27 Jan 2013, 10:16 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Most people on here are basing their opinions having barely actually seen him play!

Not to get all contrarian on you RDW, but I've made a point of watching all of Beattie's HC appearances this year - he is definitely looking like the real deal.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Denton at his best, and I would definitely have him on the bench for Saturday. However, Denton's tendancy to take the ball into contact almost every time (presumably, a sort of 'lead from the front' instinct, which is admirable) is getting really predictable. Beattie, by contrast, has really good handling skills, and some of his offloads this year have been outrageous.

Ideally, we'd find a way to squeeze them both into the starting XV (I'm sure Davey boy and play 10), but we're stuck. Still, this is exactly the sort of selection headache we like to have.

by **RDW** Sun 27 Jan 2013, 10:20 pm

Agreed Ian - it's a good problem to have!

I just think people are getting a bit carried away acting like beattie is the answer to our problems and Denton has just punched the queen or something!

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 27 Jan 2013, 10:27 pm

I think Denton has the potential to be better than Beattie ever was. Experience and consistency are what he lacks. He has a lot of time on his side to correct that.

by **RDW** Sun 27 Jan 2013, 10:35 pm

He also got a massive kick up the arse when he sauntered through the early Edinburgh games and got dropped for the nz game - he'll have learnt a massive amount from that and will know not to do it again. It led to him coming off the bench and running over McCaw!

by IanBru Mon 28 Jan 2013, 12:57 am

Thanks for reminding me of that RDW - I've just spent the last ten minutes watching this again... and again... and again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mblN1Rhawc8

Boomtown.

The more I think about it, if one of Denton or Beattie doesn't start (Johnson keeps talking about 'surprises' in selection, so I wouldn't be surprised if they both start... if you understand what I mean...), then it would be pretty criminal if the other isn't on the bench.

by Solid8 Mon 28 Jan 2013, 1:55 am

Great video that highlights our biggest strength for the last few years, carrying the ball into contact. The lack of ability to make important tackles and to catch the ball without knocking the damn thing on still gives me sleepless nights though. Especially as I have foolishly parted with money to and see the match at the home of bad winners.

For what its worth I think that England are setting themselves up for a fall; they beat a great team who were having an off day and recovering from norovirus, their other performances over the autumn were not exactly great. I'm not sure we are in a position to take advantage though, I cannot shake off doubts about Johnson's reputation and am scared that any marked improvement in form will be down to Dean Ryan, who has made it abundantly clear is leaving after the tournament.

by **George Carlin** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 5:39 am

Yes, there's been quite a bit of hype about Beattie on these boards but by the same token it must mean something to get a solid personal recommendation from the captain of France:
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/pascal-pape-backs-beattie-for-six-nations-start-1-2760771

With Denton, I suspect that we're actually doing the un-Scottish thing of being unduly harsh given his age. He's only 22 and we shouldn't expect miracles. It's not like he's alone in his Second Season Syndrome at the moment.

Welcome to 606v2 Solid8.

by Glas a du Mon 28 Jan 2013, 6:49 am

Why not go:

6 Denton,
7 Brown,
8 Beattie.

by **George Carlin** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 7:02 am

That might well be what happens Glas.

About 80% of our previous 1000 posts on this thread were people debating the merits or demerits of that arrangement. The arguments go that we should not neutralise our form player (Brown) by playing him out of position versus the fact that Brown is the most experienced footballer and therefore the person most likely to make the best fist out of playing away from his usual position in the first place.

If you're French, you might look over the fug of croissant crumbs and Galloise smoke and conclude that as England doesn't have a fetcher in their usual first choices of Robshaw and Wood, then it doesn't matter and you should just treat your flankers as 'left' snd 'right' as you wish.

And so it goes.

by Glas a du Mon 28 Jan 2013, 7:19 am

With Gray and Kellock about the park (and even Ford and Murray) do you need a fetcher, or will you rely on rucking the opposition off the ball. Wallace for Ireland was not a fetcher.

by **George Carlin** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 7:24 am

I would actually disagree with that Glas. He's the closest that you came in recent times to a classic 7 and was fairly brilliant at it.

The tactic, of course, is to get our biggest ball carriers on the pitch at the same time. That's Denton, Gray, Grant, Hamilton and Beattie. Kellock can come on and lean against the rucks looking hard later in the match.

Hopefully Lancaster will make the enormous mistake of choosing the blunt tool that is Morgan over the rugby brain (and great current form) of Easter. That would help us a lot.

How do you rate Ireland's chances this year, Glas?

by Glas a du Mon 28 Jan 2013, 8:14 am

Good. They will beat us in Cardiff and get on a roll. The Leinster boys have something to prove.

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 9:07 am

Thinking about it again, if we don't play Brown, Beattie and Denton the alternative options aren't that great:

1 - Stokosh at 7, or play him at 6 and Brown at 7

2 - Harley at 7

3 Fusaro at 7

Now for me the first one is a non-starter. Strokosh has never set the world alight for Scotland and not sure his mind will be on the game if he's just had a baby. Also, if he was to start at 6 and move Brown to 7 I'd much rather Denton was at 6 and Brown at 7!

The 2nd one is better but still not ideal. Although he has played a few games at 7 this year he hasn't played for a few weeks now. He's also just got one cap, 10 minutes in the summer tour.

The 3rd one would be good in normal circumstances, but he hasn't played in a good few weeks now and even last week there were question marks over his fitness. You can't go into a brutal Calcutta cup game with question marks over your fitness. Plus he has no experience at international level.

So looking at the above options to me our only option is to play Brown, Denton Beattie with one out of position, as the alternatives are a lesser player playing out of position or someone with no experience and lacking game time.

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 9:09 am

Oh the team is announced tomorrow so we don't have to wait long to find out!

by Solid8 Mon 28 Jan 2013, 9:32 am

Thanks for the welcome George Carlin.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 28 Jan 2013, 9:32 am

Is the captaincy announced today?

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 9:40 am

by MacKnocked-on Mon 28 Jan 2013, 10:05 am

What about the A team for Friday, are there enough spare players in the squad already to make up a team or will additional players be called up with only a few days notice?

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 10:08 am

Training squad of 35, 23 man match day squad and 2/3 standby for the main team- there'll definitely be players called up for the A-team.

Players like Tonks, McInally, Cairns, Fife, Lawrie, Welsh, Ryder, Eddie etc. I suspect

by MacKnocked-on Mon 28 Jan 2013, 10:13 am

They're not getting much notice, I would have thought the A squad players should have been training for the match already. Sounds as though most additional players will be from Glasgow and Edinburgh, it always used to be fun when the selectors pulled a rabbit form the hat selection wise like one or two Anglos.

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 10:16 am

In a Matt Scott interview he said before the 35-0 win last year against the English they had only had one training session - a team run together!

He said they basically went out there and played with their instincts - maybe that's where we've been going wrong all these years?? The less training together the better!

by MacKnocked-on Mon 28 Jan 2013, 10:23 am

Well if that works again great,problem is our main team usually appear not to have been training together much.
It would certainly be wise to keep the likes of Grove involved and I'd still like to see one or two 'surprise' selections. Unfortunately having only one A game is a bit limiting otherwise I would have liked to see Fleming from the 7s given a runout.
Last thing I want to see is the team filled up with Morrison etc.

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 10:28 am

If it was a really young backline I would maybe see the sense in Morrison playing, but chances are it will be Weir or Heathcoat at 10 and Cairns, Grove or Dunbar at 13 so don't think we really need him.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:00 am

http://www.scottishrugby.org/content/view/3377/2/

Right decision IMO, Kelly Brown as captan for the Calcutta Cup Clash.

Kelly Brown, the 30-year-old back-row forward, is to continue as Scotland captain for the opening game of the 2013 RBS 6 Nations Championship – the Calcutta Cup clash against England at Twickenham on Saturday.

The candidacy of Brown – who skippered Scotland during all three of the EMC Tests in November – has been endorsed by interim head coach Scott Johnson and his new management team.

Johnson said: “It was right and proper that the coaches considered captaincy at the same time as we were looking at selection of our squad for the England game.

“We believe Kelly has the qualities we’re looking for to captain Scotland. Captaincy is about deed in my book, not Churchillian oratory, and the knowledge and experience that Kelly brings to the Test match arena is good for this team. We are also looking at our leadership group and I’ll be naming two vice-captains in the team that we announce tomorrow.”

The 52-times capped Brown (Saracens) has not played against England since the corresponding match at Twickenham two years ago.
“As I said back in November, it’s a huge honour to captain Scotland. The job now, though, is to work with all the other players in the squad to deliver a performance to make the country proud this weekend.

“It’s a while since I’ve played against England. I missed out through injury in last year’s Six Nations and I was sidelined during the Rugby World Cup match in Auckland as well, so I’m really raring to go,” Brown said.

Johnson has trimmed the squad that were in camp last week from 35 to 27, all of whom will remain attached to the national team with none featuring on Scotland A duty.

The only addition to those who were in Glasgow last week is flanker Alasdair Strokosch who was excused the camp as his wife gave birth to their second child

Interesting to note he hasn't been named as captain for the whole tournament......

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:05 am

Right decision.

Suspect the vice captains will be Hamilton/Kellock and Laidlaw?

Looking at the revised squad I can see Dunbar, Kennedy, Weir, Heathcoat, Seymour, Ryan Wilson, Fusaro and Vernon have been dropped.

by Solid8 Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:13 am

The fact that he hasn't been given the nod for the whole tournament may be a good sign that going forward the match form of players will be more important to selection than their prowess on the training field.

Is anyone surprised with the revised match day squad?

Backs – Max Evans (Castres), Stuart Hogg, Peter Horne, Ruaridh Jackson (all Glasgow Warriors), Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby), Sean Lamont, Sean Maitland, Peter Murchie, Henry Pyrgos (all Glasgow Warriors), Matt Scott and Tim Visser (both Edinburgh Rugby)

Forwards – Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Geoff Cross, David Denton, Ross Ford, Grant Gilchrist (all Edinburgh), Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Sale Sharks), Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester), Robert Harley, Alastair Kellock, Moray Low, Pat MacArthur (all Glasgow Warriors), Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) and Alasdair Strokosoch (Perpignan).

Fusaro isn't in there so Brown, Denton and Beattie to start as widely predicted? Can't imagine that Brown will be expected to Skipper the team and play out of position.

by beshocked Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:14 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:http://www.scottishrugby.org/content/view/3377/2/

Right decision IMO, Kelly Brown as captan for the Calcutta Cup Clash.

Kelly Brown, the 30-year-old back-row forward, is to continue as Scotland captain for the opening game of the 2013 RBS 6 Nations Championship – the Calcutta Cup clash against England at Twickenham on Saturday.

The candidacy of Brown – who skippered Scotland during all three of the EMC Tests in November – has been endorsed by interim head coach Scott Johnson and his new management team.

Johnson said: “It was right and proper that the coaches considered captaincy at the same time as we were looking at selection of our squad for the England game.

“We believe Kelly has the qualities we’re looking for to captain Scotland. Captaincy is about deed in my book, not Churchillian oratory, and the knowledge and experience that Kelly brings to the Test match arena is good for this team. We are also looking at our leadership group and I’ll be naming two vice-captains in the team that we announce tomorrow.”

The 52-times capped Brown (Saracens) has not played against England since the corresponding match at Twickenham two years ago.
“As I said back in November, it’s a huge honour to captain Scotland. The job now, though, is to work with all the other players in the squad to deliver a performance to make the country proud this weekend.

“It’s a while since I’ve played against England. I missed out through injury in last year’s Six Nations and I was sidelined during the Rugby World Cup match in Auckland as well, so I’m really raring to go,” Brown said.

Johnson has trimmed the squad that were in camp last week from 35 to 27, all of whom will remain attached to the national team with none featuring on Scotland A duty.

The only addition to those who were in Glasgow last week is flanker Alasdair Strokosch who was excused the camp as his wife gave birth to their second child

Interesting to note he hasn't been named as captain for the whole tournament......

Total no brainer. Kelly Brown is arguably Scotland's best player with 52 caps. Certainly your best no 6. We'll see if Johnson picks Brown in his best position or not.

If I were a Scotland fan I wouldn't want to see the massively overrated Strokosch in the 23.

by **RDW** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:14 am

Worryingly Max Evans is a step closer to starting at 13... picard

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:17 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Worryingly Max Evans is a step closer to starting at 13...

Surely not?

Johnson seems to be saying all the right things. Max Evans has done nothing to warrant inclusion.

by **George Carlin** Mon 28 Jan 2013, 11:19 am

Dunbar didn't make the cut, which is a real shame - obviously two inexperienced centres was a step too far for Johnson.

I think that this means Schlong at 13 with Scott at 12.

Could not cope with the Squashed Goblin on anything other than the bench or a flight home.

The more I see Murchie's name in there, the most mystified I am as to why. Horne has come a long way to be included in the match squad 27.

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