Pro 12 teams and H-cup?

First topic message reminder :

There been a few examples of teams that can do well in the Pro 12 league, but just not match that in Europe, and I was wondering if anyone knew any reasons for this?

Ospreys are the best known example, 4 time Pro 12 champions, never really made the progress expected in Europe? The proved they can beat big teams in Knock-outs (Leinster away twice, Munster at home), and can do well in a league to get to play offs, yet in Europe have been disappointing.

Glasgow, is the latest to join, made play offs twice out of the three years its been in existance, currently 2nd in the table, yet have not made the knock outs in Europe, have had some wins but overall have disappointed in Europe.

Scarlets have been 5th (just missing play offs) for the last two years, yet haven't made much impact in Europe either?

Cardiff Blues, and (one year) Edinburgh, have done the opposite, and have had good runs in Europe, but were never challanging for the Leauge title.

Ulster, Munster and Leinster have been able to have good runs in both.

So why is it some good pro 12 teams can play well in the league but not in Europe?

Kingshu wrote:Jen was just trying to make the point that the provinces do not have A-teams, on top of the squads, something it seamed hard to get through so made his point with scarism.

The 'A' teams entered in BandI cup are about the same as used in the LV cup, fringe squad players needing gametime, acamady players, and maybe a senior player coming back from injury.

Aviva teams don't have extra players for LV cup they use the players that don't usually start, same as Provinces.

it is Prob better that the Provinces label these as 'A' teams, rather than calling them the first team, so fans know what to expect, and any wins losses don't count toward the senior team.

ie if Ulster/Tigers lost 2 BandI/LV cup games in a row, and the first XV were playing in the league next, you wouldn't say they were a team out of form, these two loses should not reflect on the senior team.

No wonder the Irish teams are doing so well in the B&I Cup! You're sending provincial squad players, but the Welsh are sending their semi pro clubs (and players not generally in the regional setup) and the English are sending second division clubs! Not fair!!!

Credit to the O's though. They helped knock out Toulouse.

The Irish factor is evident with even two DOR of English clubs being Irish - Conor O Shea and Mark Mccall.

Griff wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Jen was just trying to make the point that the provinces do not have A-teams, on top of the squads, something it seamed hard to get through so made his point with scarism.

The 'A' teams entered in BandI cup are about the same as used in the LV cup, fringe squad players needing gametime, acamady players, and maybe a senior player coming back from injury.

Aviva teams don't have extra players for LV cup they use the players that don't usually start, same as Provinces.

it is Prob better that the Provinces label these as 'A' teams, rather than calling them the first team, so fans know what to expect, and any wins losses don't count toward the senior team.

ie if Ulster/Tigers lost 2 BandI/LV cup games in a row, and the first XV were playing in the league next, you wouldn't say they were a team out of form, these two loses should not reflect on the senior team.

No wonder the Irish teams are doing so well in the B&I Cup! You're sending provincial squad players, but the Welsh are sending their semi pro clubs (and players not generally in the regional setup) and the English are sending second division clubs! Not fair!!!

I've always said it should be Welsh regional 'A' teams, play in it, not Welsh prem, but I guess it keeps the Welsh prem teams happy and the Welsh regional 'A' teams play in the LV=Cup.

To be fair if the Aviva clubs were playing the Championship clubs in a cup they would enter the same strength teams as the Provinces do, provinces are labeled 'A' teams just.

Last Ulster Ravens team was,
(15-9) Blane McIlroy; Neil Walsh, Stuart McCloskey, Niall O'Connor, Rory Scholes; Stuart Olding, Michael Heaney;
(1-8): Richard Lutton, Niall Annett (capt), Adam Macklin, Alan O'Connor, James Simpson, Conor Joyce, Ali Birch, James McMahon;
(16-22): Nigel Brady, Andy Warwick, John Donnan, Neil Faloon, John Creighton, Stuart Morrow, Chris Colvin.

All but the bold would be acamady, development contracts. Brady is 2nd/3rd choice hooker, needing gametime. NOC is an out of favor outhalf, returned from Connacht last year, 3rd choice outhalf, behind paddy jackson and pienaar.

So not really strong provinical teams, mostly acamady development players, maybe a senior player or two looking for form and returning to fitness. To be honest Welsh can use Welsh prem for this but th eAIL League in ireland would be a lower standard than BandI cup, so beter to return players through this, if can, than AIL League.

Wasn't a criticism Kingshu! Just messing. Although it's interesting to see the difference in structures in just 3 nations. I expect Scotland do it slightly differently too, France more like England (not sure?) and Italy seem to have a quasi-region system (they used to have one region - Aironi, and one superclub - Trevisio, I think).

its fine Griff, wasn't taken in a bad way, I think provinces stick with same teams through BandI cup, whereas Welsh/English put out stronger teams in later stages of Lv= cup, and Welsh prem teams would get more regional players for final/semi final of BandI Cup.

Scotland I think would benfit more entering 'A' teams in BandI cup but I think where Wales and Scotland try to applease the clubs by entering them, the IRFU don't have the same issue from AIL clubs.

Italy with thier quasi-region system always intrested me,

They get to enter 6 teams in Europe, 2 Pro 12 teams in h-cup, and 4 super 10 clubs in Almin, yet Wales don't get to enter Welsh prem teams in Almin. it creates problems, they only get 3 +1 Scotland get 2+0 and Ireland get 3+1, so its not right FIR get 2+4. I suspect that it will change after next year, after the european talks, and Super 10 teams will no longer be in Europe.

The other intresting thing is with Zebre they have a team set up in the image of IRFU owned Provinces, and Terviso they have a promoted super club, in image of (some) Welsh regions. It is going to be intresting which works best over time.

I don't know how Italian rugby will sort itself, once super 10 clubs are removed from the Almin, their isn't the place for more Italian teams in the Pro 12.
I think possiby the solution for them is to have 2 more regions, (Aironi and Praetorians Roma?) and play them against Zebre and Treviso in a cup while LV=Cup and BandIcup games are on, (since the German league divided into four regional divisions of six clubs each, a representive team made up from players from each division, could join. An 8 team Germanic/Italian cup, could really help the development of rugby for the two, I suspect Zebre and Treviso would put out 'A' teams, but maybe not as they would want the silverware?) Maybe in time the 4 german regions representive teams could loo at entering the Almin? who knows?

There was talk before of the Italians entering regional teams akin to the Spainish and Romanian.

I do think that the Rabo nations should be doing more to get their second divsions into the Amlin in some way.

Scotland should have to best of the rest teams and call them boarders and Caladonian. That way scotland can enter the B&I with their clubs as is with them only losing their there top few players. The squads would be done up so that if that there is no worries as to who is in which competition.

Wales should push to have to prem representive teams (one east and one west) from and do similar to scotland.

for Ireland I would only enter an u23 team in the amlin for Ireland. It accuall would do quite well. A 40man u23 squad could be named at the start of the season from non HC/amlin for connacht squads and have them as the fifth irish team. The Irish teams in the B&I really are to strong for it.