Matthysse weighs in at 138.5 (fights at 163.5)

Nice work from David Greisman as usual: http://www.boxingscene.com/fighting-words-who-stand-up-lucas-matthysse--61823

Lucas Matthysse outweighed Mike Dallas by 12 pounds come fight night. So, for a light welterweight contest, Dallas entered the ring as a junior middleweight, Matthysse a super middleweight.

Why do we have all of those divisions again?

Merit to your argument Haz............

However it's a choice between probable dehydrated fighters risking brain injuries...or the day before and 24 hrs to replenish and bulk up..........
as it is now....

The fact that someone has had to strip to get to the weight may give some consolation to the smaller fighter...you're screwing with your body..

Sport isn't a level playing field Haz and it never will be....

Good to see you sticking around..

Surely in this day and age there's a procedure that can be implemented in order to check for dehydration close to a fight? Thing is, everyone loses money if a fight gets pulled last minute and so no-one's likely to go into bat on that one.

There's got to be more regulation in terms of how much weight a guy can pile back on after a weigh-in. How the hell does someone put almost two stone and look like Matthysse does? Remember James Toney and his rubber ring against Jones?

It makes the numerous weight classes kind of redundant lower down. I think they should just limit the amount you can rehydrate to per each division.

manos de piedra wrote:It makes the numerous weight classes kind of redundant lower down. I think they should just limit the amount you can rehydrate to per each division.

Restricting the amount you can rehydrate to is a good idea, but how much? Why not just bring back same day weigh-ins and then we wouldn't have to even talk about this? I wasn't aware that there was a pandemic of fighters suffering brain damage due to weighing in the same day of the fight before they changed the rules. Having said that, I do see that weighing in 24 hours earlier is a good idea, but it's being abused.

I think the IBF limit how much you can put back on, it's a percentage of the weigh in amount but I don't know what it is. Also I have no idea how you gain 25lbs in 24 hours without some help, boxing really needs to look at it's drug testing as it is more dangerous leaving it as it is in my eyes than the same day weigh in.

In my eyes if a guy drains themselves too much to make a same day weigh in it's their own fault and they take the risks. As it is at the moment guys can take god knows what to lose weight then pile it back on with the poor testing in the sport and put the opponent at risk more than themselves. Joey Gamache suffers from brain damage after being Knocked out by Gatti who must have out weighed him by over a stone on fight night.

Holyfield put on 25 pounds after he was put on a drip after the Qawi fight....

He weighed 167 after it it was so hot...

If you starve the muscle as soon as it gets loaded again with quality fuel it has memory...and fills out..

Hence the term muscle memory....

I would say as a general rule limit rehydration to one weight class. As in a LWW cannot weigh more than the WW limit on fight night for example.

That's quite disgusting, no wonder he seems so durable at the weight when he outweighs everyone by so much.

Why is it disgusting?????

One has to speculate that getting to 138.5 is torture for the guy and a damn sight harder than for the others If he can get to 163 right after.....

Fairplay to him.....

Has it's pros and cons Truss but having such significant size advantage does make it a lot harder to be knocked out, that's a whole stone heavier than Mayweather weighs for a light middleweight fight. Call me old fashioned but I do prefer to see fighters weigh inside the actual limit of their division, for all his talent Broner is huge compared to everyone he's faced so far.

You're right Ghosty....pros and cons......

Pro...He has a big advantage weight wise...

Cons..He kills himself to make the weight...He'll pay in the end.

I agree with Ghosty on this one, the whole point of weight divisions is creating a Level playing field. When fighters are outweighed by 14-16 pounds on fight night surely that's more dangerous than any dehydration issues.

I've always held the same opinion about this one, managers and promotors should have the book thrown at them making unrealistic matchups at an unrealistic weight for a fighter. The 24 hrs weigh in is flawed and unfair, IMO regular weight checks should be stipulated from when the fight is sanctioned and neither fighter should be allowed to weigh a % over the limit.

As a point of interest does anyone have any stats whether weight related have caused more deaths/injuries pre 24 h weigh ins
Cheers Rodders

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Holyfield put on 25 pounds after he was put on a drip after the Qawi fight....

He weighed 167 after it it was so hot...

If you starve the muscle as soon as it gets loaded again with quality fuel it has memory...and fills out..

Hence the term muscle memory....

I read that somewhere but it must be a load of nonsense. Even if we to are assume Holy weighed no more than 190 he would still have to lose 23 pound. Or 1.5lb per minute not including the liquids he takes inbetween rounds.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Cons..He kills himself to make the weight...He'll pay in the end.

Shouldn't be fighting at the weight would be my answer on this one Truss, so many divisions why kill himself, promotors and managers need to have a look at themselves.

Cheers Rodders

He weighed 167 at the hospital...he stayed there for two days he was dehydrated so bad..

So it isn't nonsense.....If Mattysse can put on 25 pounds it shows it can be possible.

So he can fight smaller men Rodney..

I think it is a load if nonsense to suggest someone can lose 23lb in 15 minutes. It is not physically possible unless you chop your own leg off.

Haye v Qawi was over an hour..

Ah it was the first fight...

Still a load of rubbish. He'd be taking in fluids in between rounds and would have to lose a net weight of 30lb or so.

As I said. Nonsense.

chavez jr is the most notorious "rehydrater" i can think of, but the 2 points against changing it that i can see are:-

1. dallas could boil down and campaign at lightweight, and himself hydrate up to welter on fight night and have the advantage, but he is more comfortable (i would guess) at not having to push himself that hard in training- his choice.
2. heavyweights frequently outweigh each other by more that that, and no excuses are made for haye, adamek, cunningham or any other small framed heavyweight.

Maybe he embellished his ordeal...Does seem a lot to lose however fluid intake between rounds is minimal...

But I'll concede the point..

Why should someone like Dallas have to boil himself down because others are capable of exploiting the system. Say what you want of Mayweather and Pacquiao but their success has been built on talent not physical size.

He can Truss, but these super 12 week training camps are specifically for weight cutting nowadays.

If promotors were realistic, we'd have the possibility of same day weigh ins, fighters at there contacted weights could have breakfast lunch and a snack and still rehydrate what 8lbs at most?

36hrs weigh ins are absolutely ridiculous and dangerous, really annoys me this one.

Cheers Rodders

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Why should someone like Dallas have to boil himself down because others are capable of exploiting the system. Say what you want of Mayweather and Pacquiao but their success has been built on talent not physical size.

not saying he should have too, but if the option is there for him to do so, so he cannot complain it's unsfair (not saying he is). but on the same hand lucas shouldn't have to fight at SMW if he feels comfortable boiling down to WW just because his opponent doesn't do it. as you say talent will shine through anyway and win regardless of size advantage (i'm thinking martinez vs chavez jr) so the point is mute.

If we go back as far as the 20's you had Greb putting on 6lbs after the weigh in which in today's terms is minimal but fighters did have to be at fighting weight pretty much 24/7.

If fighters had a big lunch they'd be puking during the fight...

Dehydration starves the body.........and hurts recovery......that is more dangerous...

If a guy weighs more than you on the night of the fight big deal....outbox them....it's called Boxing.

If you are a small heavy most guys outweigh you..

Can't agree with any of that I'm sorry eddy. If you weigh 163lbs you should at least fight at middleweight. Hell froch would outweigh him by less than matthyse does over his opponents and that would be a massacre. Puts his talent into perspective for me.

So he should fight at middle against guys that outweigh..

Right I get it...

Well if that's the case Truss, just do away with the boxing divisions,

Most fighters have breakfast and lunch,look at Hatton full fried breakfast!

Salido was having steak before the Garcia fight last week. Managers and promotors hurt fighters not dehydration

Cheers Rodders

When you had weigh.ins on the morning of a fight..you had naturally bigger guys.....

What Matty gains on fight night he's lost in other detrimental ways...He must be really hurting to make the weight..

You don't like it...don't fight him!!!!!!

Not what I'm saying, the whole system needs restructuring. I may well start a thread on it tomorrow.

matteysse wouldn't weigh that if the rules didn't allow him, meaning that he isn't a middleweight masquerading as a welter, he is a welter timing his weight loss and gain perfectly for maximum benefit. i don't think froch could get to the welterweight limit if he had a year to prepare, and again if froch wants to maintain a steady weight, and other fighters in the division choose to bulk up by timing their training then there perfectly within their right. we can't expect everybody to be exactly 147 on fight night as a few pounds really is neither here nor there, and no fighter should have to not eat or drink on fight night, for obvious reasons.

Absolutely eddy..

Boxing's never been a level playing field....

So you think weight differences of 15lbs are fair?

Yes........Why isn't it....he has the capacity to put on weight in a day and takes advantage....

Why not stop a guy with bigger lung capacity doing the tour de france....

Sport isn't a level playing field...Boxing isn't any different..

Imperial Ghosty wrote:So you think weight differences of 15lbs are fair?

as fair as possible, granted its a advantage to the heavier fighter, but as i said earlier if the lighter guy was willing to push himself harder he would be facing someone lighter. its not a perfect system but definitely the lesser of two evils. added to the fact that talent seems to prevail (mayweather and manny as you said, plus donaire, roy jones etc) then it doesn't seem worth changing. heavyweights don't complain about there being no super heavyweight divison if there just over the limit and lose.

Just done a bit online searching in the old newspaper archives
McFarland-Gibbons. At 3 PM both weighed under 147 pounds. At ringside, around 10 PM - McFarland 152, Gibbons 153.

Fighters like Joey Gamache who got dangerously knocked out by Gatti, don't think they'd say it's fair!

Cheers rodders

if he didn't think it was fair why agree to the terms of the fight in the first place?

I wouldnt blame Matthysse for what he does as he just uses the system to his advantage. But I doubt the rehydration period was intended for this kind of use use. The way the modern game is weight cutting seems to have become a real science in terms of how much they can cut and rehydrate. It should really be capped. Especially given the amount of weight classes now. Id like to see both the weigh in and in ring weights announced and published as a matter of course now to get a better overall picture.

It'll be interesting to see if this is a one off from Matthysse or if he's always going to scale 160 or more from now on, because I find it alarming that, having been rehydrated up to the 149 / 150 mark for his last few fights, he's suddenly a whole stone heavier than come the first bell against Dallas. Who knows, maybe he really had to drive himself in to the ground to make Light-Welter this time compared to past fight, but whatever the truth it's a huge gain.

As for the rest, I'd say that Manos' suggestion of putting a cap on rehydration weight is something I'd agree with. As it stands, Matthysse is doing absolutely nothing wrong and shouldn't really be criticised for it; he's obviously meeting the thirty-day weigh in requirements and, ultimately, if someone can make 140 lb a day and a half before the fight then they are a Light-Welter by definition.

But I don't think it's healthy to be putting on the best part of two stone in such a short period, even if most of it is water weight, and it does lessen the credibility of having seventeen weight classes even further.

I'd suggest an in-ring weight limit of eleven stone at the absolute most for the Light-Welters - maybe even a bit lower at 150 lb - and I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for any fighter in that weight class to stay within that parameter in those thirty-six hours after the weigh in.

Keeping a cap on rehydration is just b*****ks......Once you start eating properly the body finds it's own comfort zone...

By messing with rehydration weights it's screwing up a guy's system even more..

If a guy can make a weight good luck to him...If matthyse has an advantage tough..

If everybody else could get up to 160 you wouldn't be moaning would you...

Untwist those knickers, big boy!

Nobody is 'moaning'. And even if all Light-Welters could get to 160-odd come fight night, I'd still much prefer a rehydration weight cap to be placed on the division in any case. Yes, there will always be differences in fight night weights and some guys will outweight others, but the basic premise still stands that we have weight classes for a reason - I still feel that the two fighters should at least be in the same(ish) ball park by the time that first bell rings.

The thing is, Truss, that Matthysse, as far as I can see, is an incredibly rare case. What other Light-Welter can anyone name who could have been even close to 163 lb on fight night? It's worth noting that he's usually been 'only' about 150 lb on fight night previously in any case. Peterson looked huge compared to Khan but I believe he was bang on eleven stone when they actually fought, which is ample rehydration in the large majority of cases, I think.

I'm pretty confident that the huge majority of Light-Welters are 154 lb or less when they step through the ropes. I'd rather cater to the majority and impose such a cap. I have absolutely no issue with fighters blowing up after the weigh in at all, but 25 lb is just too much and not particularly healthy, in my eyes.

Just my take on it, but pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things as the sanctioning bodies and State Athletic Commissions would never impose such an idea in any case.

I just think it makes the idea of so many weight classes rather pointless. Why are they there if come fight night fighters are as many as two or three weight classes above?

Having a cap might discourage the big cutters to bother boiling down so drastically if they know they can only rehydrate to a certain amount and thus have fighters generally weighing similar come fight night. There are enough weight classes now that fighters dont need to be going through extremes to make a division. Its just encouraging more intense weight cutting if anything which is why its probably becoming more prominant.

I think the general principal of weight classes is to have fighters within a similar size of each other fighting.

Armstrong had better lung capacity that the other riders in the Tour de france....should we ban him..

Let's change the whole system because one guy is a freak of nature..

Do me a favor..I don't want to see another Duk koo kim leaving a Son behind..or ..Parents burying a Son!!

The guy makes the weight good luck to him.....

His body rehydrates back to the level it's comfortable at...just happens to be bigger than everyone else so what...

We can't keep screwing around with fighters bodies they take enough stick.

Aye they should make it 9 weight classes or hold the weigh in on the same day and withhold a large chunk of their pay for non-performance if they turn up like Oscar did.

Oscar showed what draining can do...Matthyse takes that risk....

It's not a one way street.....what he gains one way he loses by the stress that's already been involved..

I tend to think fighters shouldnt be dehydrating themselves so badly in the first place. Allowing them a period where they can rehydrate so much is simply encouraging them to dehydrate themselves badly in order to benefit from big size gains. There are enough weight classes now that major dehydration shouldnt be an issue. Its just fighters trying to obtain weight advantages.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Armstrong had better lung capacity that the other riders in the Tour de france....should we ban him..

Cycling isn't categorised in to separate classes of lung capacity. Boxing, on the other hand, is categorised in to different weight classes.

As for your Duk Koo Kim point, well I'd suggest that a rehydration cap would at least make fighters consider boxing in a weight class that they don't have to drain themselves dry to make, which would be safer in the long run anyhow.

Can't really say much else on the matter as it's simply too conflicting opinions with no middle ground and, as I said, the authorities will never introduce such a cap anyway.

It is categorised into weight categories so what's your problem.....He makes the weight.

You don't understand the human body........

If I eat the same as you it will have a different affect....

Rehydration levels mean a guy has to starve his body even more....because people put on weight easier..

where will it end..