Shhhhhhhhh!!

First topic message reminder :

Any hot headed or over sensitive Irish fans will probably do well to look away now.

What happens when a minority sport improves in popularity? You get a slew of bandwagoners versed in the culture of other sports joining in. They don't get the history or traditions of the cult followers, there throughout the 'thin' years. Things are not quite the same.

Ireland is the success story of professional era Rugby in the Northern Hemishpere. The fourth sport of Ireland is climbing the ladder. The structure of the Country lends itself to the concentration of club talent in three provinces and a fourth 'development' province. This has led with a decent tax break, gifted players and top quality coaching to each of the main three provinces winning the ERC. The Grand Slam of 2009 looked as if it may never come as the game turned pro in the mid 90s. Their rise to success was from a much lower base than England's World Cup or Wales' multiple Grand Slams.

Every province has seen a dramatic rise in attendances since the 'inter-pro' tournament of the amateur era. One man and his dog being replaced by thousands of fans. Domestic games moved to the Aviva Stadium to accommodate demand. This has inevitably led to 'a minority of idiots' attending matches.

Outsiders however latch onto these transgressions with rare schadenfreude. Tight games against Scotland, Wales and now England in the past few seasons at the Aviva have been marred by booing of crucial kicks. So what, the casual observer may say, it happens everywhere. Not in Ireland it didn't.

In Ireland there is a tradition of 'respect for the kicker'. Whether that was born as an expression of good manners or an intimidatory tactic is irrelevant, commentators regularly remind us of this tradition in syrupy prose.

Booing that appears commonplace elsewhere jars in the Aviva for this very reason. Traditionalists bemoan the 'idiotic minority'.

I sat 30 yards from Halfpenny a year ago. He was sizing up a decisive kick; accompanied by a chorus of boos and flag waving from behind the posts. And then in Parc Y Scarlets last season Munster fans were telling Scarlets fans to respect the kicker as O'Gara was lining up a kick:

"Your not in Ireland now good boy, it's not our tradition..."

The Irish seem to have set themselves up for this fall with uncommon hubris. Done in a very self deprecating and charming way, of course.

The boos are rare and it is a minority that engage. Dan Parks, Halfpenny and Farrell nailed those vital kicks, so it probably hurt Ireland for their fans to motivate them so vocally. I would not dare suggest that this is the very reason that the traditionalists get so upset with it...

With the rapid rise of rugby in Ireland surely the odd lapse in this tradition is an inevitable, even an acceptable consequence of rugby's success there, isn't it? Well, maybe, but once you surrender the moral high ground it's a major operation to seize it back.

To the tune of the theme from "The Sweeney"



Raheny
Raheny
Raheny
Raheny

thebluesmancometh wrote:Just on the note of nights out in Dublin, why was BOD on the lash on Sunday straight after the game??? The wife wasn't with him, just a group of friends in Hogans!

Wetting the babies head sure.

I thought thats why he wouldn't have been out

It's a fine tradition. I'm glad a rugby player of his stature can observe it.

thebluesmancometh wrote:So according to you anyone who acts in a different way to your holy rugby traditions are vulger? Are the French fans who boo and wave at kickers vulgar? Are football fans who chant songs vulgar?

1) Re. French fans. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. French fans I've met have all been outstanding and I have no recollection of them ever booing our kicker at Ravenhill. It's something I only notice at home games in France and tests. The European Cup matches I've been to featuring French sides have all been in Ireland or England and the French lads there have been top drawer; no booing, just passionate noise making and colour with plenty of drink on board. They are some craic. I've got to conclude that the French fans booing at games in France aren't cut from the same cloth.
2) Very often yes, yes exactly and it is exactly this that would put me off rugby if it was segregated in the same way- if you look at some of the lyrics of songs chanted at Premier league grounds, some of it is really unpleasant. Especially when it comes to games like Liverpool vs Man Utd. Worse than booing.

Ultimately, for me, its about respect. If I was an away fan in a crowd of home fans who were booing the kicker and acting like eejits, would I be happy? No, I would be seriously peed off. And I would be negative, which makes my interactions with the fans around me if any negative. Creates a negative atmosphere. Which defies the whole philosophy of having unsegregated crowds. For that reason I inwardly cringe whenever I hear the fans of my own team booing and yes, it is something that would discourage me from going to games.

The beauty of rugby is that fans can mix freely, unsegregated and have a laugh together. That happens because of mutual respect and the best way to preserve that respect is to act in a sportsmanlike manner. Support your team instead of trying to undermine the opponents. I've been really irritated at recent Ireland and Ulster games because there are people around me acting the eejit. And it's annoying and disrespectful and they should probably shut the hell up.

It IS just a game people!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I thought thats why he wouldn't have been out

Well sure you have to the hospital after to certain hour so best thing to do is celebrate with family and friends. Thats what everyone does no?

Round here we do.

That's right. It's just a game, Notch. No need to get riled up with something none of us can control.

That horrible Aussie chant makes my blood boil - and it's getting worse by the year in all sports we play. If only I could wind back the clock and gag the 'inventor' of that. In the meantime, I'll have to learn to accept it unfortunately.

Or devise some brilliant new chant or fad to replace it.

You never hear Waltzing Matilda anymore

* grouse on the pitch at Adams Park are quite common, as the ground is in the Chiltern Hills. Now that's elitist.

Surely it would only be elitist if only a certain percentage of the crowd was allowed to shoot at it (you just KNOW that some of the florid faced idiots in Barbour jackets have a brace of Purdy’s secreted somewhere in one of those poacher pockets – all that clinking cannot just be solely down to hip flasks)

I think as Rodders has already said “Good sportsmanship and respect for the opposition” is required, but additionally tradition has to have common sense at its heart. I’ll always respect other folks traditions, but then again most people do, it’s just when ‘our own’ start bucking the trend that the disapproving sssshhs and haughty looks start appearing.

However in this particular case, booing kickers at Lansdowne, I think that it doesn’t fit into either the respect for the opposition or the common sense area.

Why should you respect the kicker whilst you shout down the lineout. Why respect the kicker whilst you bay at the oppositions fullback taking a high ball?

You cannot condone it logically, all you can do is point out that ‘it’s the way things are, it’s different’ – ie tradition because its traditional. I know a few of you have tried to say ‘it’s different’ – but it’s not. It’s using the voice of the home crowd to influence a part of the oppositions game play.

I must admit here, I’m not a great one for tradition – it’s just that being a scumbag northern working class Englishman I find a lot of the traditions are there to keep me in a place I don’t particularly want to be in (ie not being able to shoot grouse at Wasps)

Glas a du wrote:You never hear Waltzing Matilda anymore

If we're lucky it might be sung in June or July. We are hopeless singers traditionally. So much room for improvement.

The problem is if your an away fan and your trying to press your ideals on others then you are being mightily disrespectfull to the home fans don't you think?

Remember this isn't your game, it's global and incorporates numerous different heritages, traditions, cultures and classes.

Yeah. Got to think outside the polygon... or polyglot as bluesman says. Take your pick lads!

OK so the haka, yay or nay.....

Fight wood with steel I say.

I they wanna pretend to be pop stars before the game let them jiggle everything they have at people, it's the pre post anthem thing thats the issue!

Linebreaker wrote:That horrible Aussie chant makes my blood boil - and it's getting worse by the year in all sports we play.

Which Aussie chant is that?

I wont repeat it on here Lucky. There's only one. It's awful.

thebluesmancometh wrote:The problem is if your an away fan and your trying to press your ideals on others then you are being mightily disrespectfull to the home fans don't you think?

Remember this isn't your game, it's global and incorporates numerous different heritages, traditions, cultures and classes.

Always a risk of culture clash. Whats rude in one society is not rude in another. In this case, its easy to give and take offence when none is meant.

For that reason I'm not rushing out to condemn fans from around the world who have different values. But the distance between Ireland and Wales is NOT significant. Make no mistake, bluesman. I'm from Northern Ireland, you're from Wales. We pay taxes to the same government, we have the largely same media, we follow the same sports, we speak the same language and our society has the same values. I'm not gonna pass off fans poor conduct in Wales or Ireland as a culture clash because we're not from meaningfully different cultures. If you boo you're just acting like an oik. Thats why I'm more critical of Welsh fans than French fans for the same behaviours.

If I go to Blues vs Ulster next season, and by some quirk of fate we are sat next to each other, and you boo my team a) I'm probably going to see if I can move seats b) I'm not going to shake your hand at the end of the game c) I'm not going to engage with you in any way. No loss to you I might think. But its a loss to the game at large. And fans of my own team, on the road, are no angels either. This is similarly shaming.

If I'm sat next to someone who can talk rugby with a smile on his face and applaud good play by both teams I'm gonna have more fun. Booing- the person booing is having fun, presumably, whilst irritating everyone else. If we can all enjoy the game together everybody is having fun. Emotions run high during games and having a code like this helps stop things from getting nasty and keeps things friendly.

The most problems with puffed up morons I've had from fans at rugby games have been with Welsh fans, closely followed by Irish fans of all stripes. The most personable fans in my experience are English and French. This is just anecdotal evidence, but I think it bears thinking about.

But the best craic I've had with away fans has been with clubs like Stade Francais, Clermont, Northampton Saints, Leicester etc.

surely if you want to put the Hooker and his team off the line out you'd shout NOW

that, or PIES!

I see your points Notch, for the record If I'm sat next to a booer they will know I dislike it because I will boo them as they boo (I have done before)

'BOOOOO YOUR NOT BOOING RIGHT, IT SHOULD BE LOUDER BOOOOO'

But generally it wasn't because he booed, it was him and his mates singing sheep shagger songs (just for the record it was at the MS a few years ago and they were Glos fans)

I also had to tell off a few Blues fans at twickers for singing typical Cardiff city songs (you know the ones, Harold Shipman etc...)

But in genmeral and from what Ive witnessed a crowd who are fully invested in the game, cheering booing singing, are the best type.

I find in general that there is no point generalising fans, some are good, some are great, some are not to your taste, Ive had a great night in Dublin with Englishmen, good times in Edinburgh with Scots and even an excellent night in Paris with kiwi's (who'd have thought)

But the worst type of fan IMHO are those who bemoan the crowd, declare unsportsmanship behaviour, and have this holier than thou attitude, it is far more disagreeable than a family booing a kicker IMHO.

What Linebreaker, the one that goes..

Up There Cazaly, in there and fight...



Wish we had that for rugby!!!

( that's a footy song back home for the non aussies on the board )

TrailApe wrote:

* grouse on the pitch at Adams Park are quite common, as the ground is in the Chiltern Hills. Now that's elitist.

Surely it would only be elitist if only a certain percentage of the crowd was allowed to shoot at it (you just KNOW that some of the florid faced idiots in Barbour jackets have a brace of Purdy’s secreted somewhere in one of those poacher pockets – all that clinking cannot just be solely down to hip flasks)

I think as Rodders has already said “Good sportsmanship and respect for the opposition” is required, but additionally tradition has to have common sense at its heart. I’ll always respect other folks traditions, but then again most people do, it’s just when ‘our own’ start bucking the trend that the disapproving sssshhs and haughty looks start appearing.

However in this particular case, booing kickers at Lansdowne, I think that it doesn’t fit into either the respect for the opposition or the common sense area.

Why should you respect the kicker whilst you shout down the lineout. Why respect the kicker whilst you bay at the oppositions fullback taking a high ball?

You cannot condone it logically, all you can do is point out that ‘it’s the way things are, it’s different’ – ie tradition because its traditional. I know a few of you have tried to say ‘it’s different’ – but it’s not. It’s using the voice of the home crowd to influence a part of the oppositions game play.

I must admit here, I’m not a great one for tradition – it’s just that being a scumbag northern working class Englishman I find a lot of the traditions are there to keep me in a place I don’t particularly want to be in (ie not being able to shoot grouse at Wasps)

We don't get too many 'barbour jacket' types, despite our ground's location in a generally well off part of the country. Wasps were always London's blue collar club.

95% of the time the kicker is respected at Wasps. The only time you will get booing is on tghe rare occasion the ref has made a howler of a decision leading to an opposition try or penalty. The derision is aimed at the ref, but can linger while the kicker is lining up his pot at goal.

thebluesmancometh wrote:But the worst type of fan IMHO are those who bemoan the crowd, declare unsportsmanship behaviour, and have this holier than thou attitude, it is far more disagreeable than a family booing a kicker IMHO.

You can disapprove of booing without being this caricature.

Hound - And there was I thinking that the english crowd at Wasps were so biased that they even boooed Stephen Jones when he was taking a pot at the posts

Ah, come on Ruby, these days we are more 'London Welsh' than the Exiles themselves.

Nice to see you on here Hound - Your boys are looking real good this year and Lancaster's a great coach IMO - Good luck in your remaining games

Yes. A strong England is needed for the tournament.

Glas a du wrote:Yes. A strong England is needed for the tournament.

I couldn't agree more, having won 9 out of our last 11 Six nations games we desperately need some quality opposition

Not a boo-er myself, dont really like it but not fussed if others want to do it. What I dislike(fking hate) are voovuzellers(?) Havnt been to a live rugby game recently so not sure if they are about but a little kid had one at an olympic football game I went to and it took most of my willpower not to take it off him and smash it up.

kj7 - bath have 'mini vuvzelas because they don't' have any songs.



Ruby/Glas - what a pleasure it is to have the London Welsh choir at Prem games. Absolute gentlemen and a credit to the game.

When we played them at Adams Park they were singing 'Men of Harlech' (a great rugby song), then dropped it down to a very low hum - to keep the beat - as our kicker took a pot at goal.

They applauded the kick and resumed singing to appreciation from the Wasps fans.

Class, and tradition.

OzT wrote:What Linebreaker, the one that goes..

Up There Cazaly, in there and fight...



Wish we had that for rugby!!!

( that's a footy song back home for the non aussies on the board )

I really like that one. the...............crowd.............is on...................your...side!

oooo..
ooooo...

oooooooooo...


(slower tempo) Up there Cazaly
In there and fight
Up there and at 'em, show them your might...


We could be at the MCG, and Kelly playing as well!!!

Remember when Bosustow got the ball or Doull (the Human Doormat) was lining up for a goal? The crowd would go off! They hardly ever missed too.

this was a good one too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX7domu4dSo

Couldn't 'Cazaly' be changed to 'Australia'? Just a thought.

Good morning Aussies.

Morning Hound - yes it could.

However it's a Victorian thing - maybe our cousins down south wouldn't let us?

Rugby is growing in Ireland and attracting new fans who probably don't know anything about traditions. Its good to see new fans but the booing is the downside.

profitius wrote:Rugby is growing in Ireland and attracting new fans who probably don't know anything about traditions. Its good to see new fans but the booing is the downside.

That's a convenient and lazy excuse.

They're the best kind

Linebreaker wrote:Morning Hound - yes it could.

However it's a Victorian thing - maybe our cousins down south wouldn't let us?

Ha, no matter what country, there's parochial bias.

Looking forward to the Lions tour.

You are allowed to boo for anything here - except at half time when important advertisements are on and people get very, very angry if they miss a Harvey Norman special or can't properly hear an AAMI car insurance ad.

Shhhhssshhhing is only considered polite in supermarkets when single mothers are unable to control their quadruplets screaming in the Kinder Chocolate section.

Risca Rev wrote:

profitius wrote:Rugby is growing in Ireland and attracting new fans who probably don't know anything about traditions. Its good to see new fans but the booing is the downside.

That's a convenient and lazy excuse.

Isn't the same in Wales? The real fans who grew up with the game have the craic while the daytrippers dress up like daffodils, get peed, send abusive tweets to Sam Warburton and- dare I say it- boo? Hounds anecdote about the London Welsh choir is a perfect example. I met some London Welsh fans when we played them in the British and Irish Cup. A mixture of Welsh and second-generation Welsh English, good lads.

It might be a good excuse, but in my experience its also true. Not universally so. I've run across a few ignoramuses who should know far better at Ravenhill with strong ties to the club game. There are a lot out there. But it tends to be the fans who act as though they are at a football match who are new to the sport. It's not like no Irishman ever raised his voice to boo before rugby became popular here. But I've noticed a very pronounced upward trend in this kind of behaviour in Ireland over the past 10 years.

Thats good in a way. It's a sign that we are growing the game. Ospreys would be laughing all the way to the bank if they had 20000 vocal booers every week. And they'd get even more stick from us on forums like this!

I can see we need their money. I just don't need their company

Risca Rev wrote:

profitius wrote:Rugby is growing in Ireland and attracting new fans who probably don't know anything about traditions. Its good to see new fans but the booing is the downside.

That's a convenient and lazy excuse.

What excuse?

I think you might be interested in this piece by Alan Quinlan. He really has a go at some people he thinks under-performed on Sunday for Ireland- not at the coach and not the fans. The supporters.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0213/1224329981475.html

I've spoken many times on this forum about how I feel less and less engaged with the national team due to the lack of atmosphere at the AVIVA. Quinlan nails it- and the new breed of Ireland fan- to a tee. We've gone from having a crowd of respectful, passionate, partisan fans to having an audience of booing, boozing, biased bandwagoners at the home of our national team. It's becoming less and less worth paying for- or, if you're a current rugby international, playing for.

Rugby is curious. When I go to the theatre or cinema, I'm not paying for a good crowd. When I go to a rugby match I don't see the point of shelling out when its not a good atmosphere. I think I'm going to save my money in future. Irish fans lecture you on the values and etiquette of rugby supporters because it used to mean something over here. Sadly, even the best traditions fall way.

It's a bit like that (AQ's article and your experience) at Tests matches here too.

I won't go into the detail again but last years 3rd match v Wales at the SFS was a very similar experience with folks going up and down stairs clutching beers and clogging up the concourse watching TV screens.

Same thing at the SCG at a cricket match a few weeks ago. Some 'spectators' have absolutely no sense of etiquette. The rule is that you stay where you are during an over - then quickly move to your seat in between overs... similar to the do not move anywhere during a tennis match until after the game is complete... and especially when a point is being played!

Sorry to spoil the traditional party here but I think you're all getting a little bit too precious and poncy with your ideas - I like the stadiums to have a cross section of fans who are there for a good day out, whether you wear a red hat, want to boo or like me are transfixed to the game to such an extent that I can't eat or drink anythinng for 80 minutes. Rugby should have room for all of these. As for the boooing; just deal with it, for me it's like booing the pantomime villain; too much fecking PC bullshxx creeping into our lives. Make it raucous make it a verbal riot and wear what you want for a great day out - and if you don't like it stay home and watch it on TV

Notch wrote:
I can see we need their money. I just don't need their company

Yeah I mean thats the reality. Ulsters average attendences are up maybe a 5th this year and the fans need to come from somewhere to fill the increased capacity that will be there next year.

You see a lot of people on works nights out etc. at Ravenhill now, companies buying tickets and giving them out free to employees etc. Thats an easy way to get numbers but sometimes the people that come don't really follow the game, its just a thing to do in between a meal and going clubbing on a Friday night.

Thats the nature of things. I'd say enjoy the atmosphere at Ravenhill this year because it will be changed forever come next few seasons. There'll still be the core support and fans coming from the rugby clubs etc. but as the corporate sponsorship increases and the B2B relationships are built up through aggressive and more professional marketing that old school traditional atmosphere will die away quickly the way it did in the new aviva.

Club and school level participation is the real acid test of growth and if the pace of ticket sale growth at provincial and national level far outstrips this then in all likelyhood you will see a noteable change in the atmoshpere at the games.

It's debatable whether this is a positive thing or not but I don't have any doubt that this is the direction things are going.

Notch wrote:I think you might be interested in this piece by Alan Quinlan. He really has a go at some people he thinks under-performed on Sunday for Ireland- not at the coach and not the fans. The supporters.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0213/1224329981475.html

I've spoken many times on this forum about how I feel less and less engaged with the national team due to the lack of atmosphere at the AVIVA. Quinlan nails it- and the new breed of Ireland fan- to a tee. We've gone from having a crowd of respectful, passionate, partisan fans to having an audience of booing, boozing, biased bandwagoners at the home of our national team. It's becoming less and less worth paying for- or, if you're a current rugby international, playing for.

Rugby is curious. When I go to the theatre or cinema, I'm not paying for a good crowd. When I go to a rugby match I don't see the point of shelling out when its not a good atmosphere. I think I'm going to save my money in future. Irish fans lecture you on the values and etiquette of rugby supporters because it used to mean something over here. Sadly, even the best traditions fall way.

The biggest reason why the atmosphere has dropped is because the quality of performance has dipped significantly.

Compare Ireland v England in the Aviva 2011. I was at that match. Best atmosphere for any match in any sport I have ever witnessed bar maybe Ireland v Oz 1991 RWC.

However, fast forward to 2013 same fixture yet there was no crowd noise. Why? Simply because there was very little to cheer about. Its a no brainer really. Same goes for all teams.

Cardiff for example. Ireland hockied Wales in the first half. You could hear a pin drop at times. Second half they raised the roof.

Granted there is a new breed of fans that arent great but I dont think the atmosphere is much different now as it has ever been and I have been to over 40 Irish internationals.

Linebreaker wrote:You are allowed to boo for anything here - except at half time when important advertisements are on and people get very, very angry if they miss a Harvey Norman special or can't properly hear an AAMI car insurance ad.

Shhhhssshhhing is only considered polite in supermarkets when single mothers are unable to control their quadruplets screaming in the Kinder Chocolate section.

Wow, I know youre only messing but if someone shushed my kid Id be pretty embarassed or maybe tell them to f off depending on the mood I'm in.

Only messing of course...

I loved that hush in '91. I remember it just like yesterday. Think we did the same in the other World Cup (final) that year with Ricky and Big Mal. Same stunned silence too.