Irish Provinces and NIQ, with particular reference to Ulster

Firstly good to be back.
The main reason for my absence being a family illness which has taken its toll

But enough of that back to the matter in hand.


I thought I would clarify the above specifically the fact the 1 player per position, cannot replace a player in the same position idea Dublin had is dead in the water. I think they realized it was too perscriptive and was unworkable. The new approach is to work with the Provinces to reduce the NIQ over the course of time.
With respect to Ulstrer the scenario goes something like this:

Williams the most straight forward. He will be retained as long as it suits both parties but he may only be offered 1 year contracts. If he leaves a NIQ backrower will probably be signed to replace with leadership qualities to the fore - see Muller below.

Afoa the most complicated. Irish rugby has a huge problem at TH as we all know. However Dublin do recognise that simply stopping NIQ players is not going to help. If players of the right quality are not available where do we go? - there are recognized safety issues in putting young players in before they are ready.I think both Munster and Ulster will be allowed to retain a NIQ player , or preferable a 'Project player' beyond 2014. In Ulster case I think the hope is a potentail project player can be found for next year so that when Afoa leaves in 2014 ( a certainty) he will be 2 years away from qualification. Scouting is happening as we speak. All sort of options - I could see Leinster being forced to give up 1 of their 5 IQ TH's, Humphreys eating humble pie and talking to Andress. I can see Botha staying at Munster for a further year if he wants. The whole thing is a mess in truth.

Payne will either become Irish qualified in 2014 or will leave. If he leaves he will not be replaced - the feeling is Ulster in Nelson, Andrew, D'Arcy (if he stays) and Olding have sufficient potential that a NIQ replacement cannot be justified.

Muller will not be replaced when he retires. He will be 34 at the end of his current contract in the summer of 2014. The feeling being that Tuohy, Stevenson, McComb, Henderson plus the promise of the youngest - Simpson and O'Connor is more than enough. McComb at 30 is the oldest of these players and as of yesterday all contracts for these players have been sorted.

Pienaer Ulster want to give he a contract beyond 2014 (2 more years?). The arguement is beyond Marshall and Heaney we do not have the talent coming through. Also the arguement is by them the young 10 talent will be mature enough - Jackson, Olding, McKinney? (Rumour is he may be coming back - with NOC leaving in the summer)

The net effect of all this is Ulster will have 2 NIQ players for 2014-2015, and a TH who will, probably be what we used to call a Project. I believe Munster and Leinster are in similar conversations in working out a measured way of droping the NIQ numbers without falling off a cliff performance wise

As a little aside some other Ulster snippets:

Doyle is out for the sason, probably Nelson too. Doyle had to have a second operation.
Trimble and Ferris the only contracts, of note, outstanding and that is only because their central contracts are up this summer - no danger of either leaving.
Spoke to Nick Wiliams on Friday - what a total gent - you could not meet a nicer fella.
Paddy McAllister is growing the beard because he was one of the closest friends of Nevin Spence and he is doing as a charity funding raising activity (also a really nice personable individual). He is putting on some serious muscle - he will be a beast next year
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Soory to hear about the illness, G - delighted to have you back.

Can we now bombard you with questions?

You can - cant promise answers though

Geoff, nice to have you back... Been missing the Ulster gossip and sorry about the family illness!

Was McKinney not just a loan deal to Rotherham for the season anyway?

I think it was 2 but not sure it has gone that well hence a early return - may just be a case of good old fashion homesickness.

Allied to this I think they have given up NOC as a lost cause

I think anyone could see NOC was a lost cause... Just as well Paddy has stepped up to the plate so well. The future looks bright for Ulster rugby!

If we were to go for a Leinster prop, I'd much rather we went for Moore or Furlong... Hagan would be a step back if you ask me!

He would but Leinster would resist with a passion and from what I have seen the player on offer would be Hagan or Bent not Moore or Furlong.

No real chance of either of them imo

Hmmm I'd go for Bent then. Far rather him than Hagan...

If only Reggie Corrigan could teach these boys how to scrum! Oh wait isn't he the Leinster Scrum coach now?

Sorry to hear about you and your family having a tough time. I'm sure I speak for all of us here when I say I hope happier and healthier times lie ahead for the GeoffRugby clan!

I've always though that the approach to NIQs is wrong, and the proposals the IRFU laid down were so prescriptive as to be utterly unworkable. I think that the better approach is minutes, not quotas. Let me explain. We have a system where our internationals have certain number of minutes they must not exceed- well, why not flip it. Should a province need to sign an NIQ in a key position, set a number of minutes they must play an Irish alternative in that position.

For instance, Munster resign BJ Botha. But the IRFU mandates that as a condition of this is that they give say the equivalent of 9 full games (720 minutes) to an Irish qualified tighthead across the whole season. The logic being if that player is good enough for the Heineken Cup he will get to make his case and if not he will still be learning at Pro12 level.

I agree with one comment in this particularly Geoff, regarding tighthead- "the whole thing is a mess". Long term, my worry is that none of our current crop of second rows are particularly good at calling the lineout. When it was Stevenson and McComb Diack was the caller- Tuohy isn't a lineout general in the traditional mould either. When Muller is absent this is an issue- hopefully they all continue learning as much as possible from JM when he's here.

Do you know whether Henderson is seen as a lock or blindside flank in the long term? Also, I'd take Hagan. I don't think he is very good, not good enough for the Heineken Cup and therefore we will need to sign another prop regardless, but I do think he is better than Adam Macklin.

Hands off Moore and Furlong lads.

You better hurry if you want Hagan as I believe he has interest from outside as well as inside Ireland.

I can see Bent going to Munster, however I don't really want to part with him.

He will improve dramatically with gametime imo, I suppose being honest it's best for Ireland if he get's that as first choice.

So whichever of yiz wants to give up Botha or Afoa first..........

I agree Hagan could be leaving which why I see a new 'Project' being the more likely scenario.

Regarding lineout callers I agree a problem - but at some stage, soon Muller will leave, and we will have to manage without him.
Better to deal with it now whilst he is here to teach.

Henderson, at least, in the short term is seen an interchangeable 6 and lock. It is a case of wait and see how he develops.

Notch wrote:Sorry to hear about you and your family having a tough time. I'm sure I speak for all of us here when I say I hope happier and healthier times lie ahead for the GeoffRugby clan!

Seconded.

Good to see you back Geoff!

geoff998rugby wrote:He would but Leinster would resist with a passion and from what I have seen the player on offer would be Hagan or Bent not Moore or Furlong.

No real chance of either of them imo

We will definately want to hold onto both Moore and Furlong as they are the two with the most potential. The best thing for Furlong would be to stay with us imo.

Hagan has been ok with us this season. He took Duncan Jones apart not so long ago. He would definately be a good 2nd choice TH.

Verybody raves about Pienaer, but for me without a shadow of a doubt, Nick Williams is the best player at Ulster, without him Ulster are only half of the force they can be, but without Nick Williams and Pienaer, are they a force at all ?

LordDowlais wrote:Verybody raves about Pienaer, but for me without a shadow of a doubt, Nick Williams is the best player at Ulster, without him Ulster are only half of the force they can be, but without Nick Williams and Pienaer, are they a force at all ?

Well by that calculation Pienaar would be of equal value to Williams in terms of contributing to Ulsters net force, so either you're lying about rating Williams higher than Pienaar or you aren't very good at maths......

rodders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Verybody raves about Pienaer, but for me without a shadow of a doubt, Nick Williams is the best player at Ulster, without him Ulster are only half of the force they can be, but without Nick Williams and Pienaer, are they a force at all ?

Well by that calculation Pienaar would be of equal value to Williams in terms of contributing to Ulsters net force, so either you're lying about rating Williams higher than Pienaar or you aren't very good at maths......

True, I am not good at maths, but all I am saying is, Ulster WITH Williams and WITHOUT Pienaer would be better than Ulster WITH Pienaar and WITHOUT Williams, but WITHOUT both of them they would be mid table and scrapping with the Glasgows and Scarlets of this world.

Wishful thinking there man. Williams and Pienaar have both missed a lot of games and we keep trundling on.

Notch wrote:Wishful thinking there man. Williams and Pienaar have both missed a lot of games and we keep trundling on.

At the same time ?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hands off Moore and Furlong lads.

You better hurry if you want Hagan as I believe he has interest from outside as well as inside Ireland.

I can see Bent going to Munster, however I don't really want to part with him.

He will improve dramatically with gametime imo, I suppose being honest it's best for Ireland if he get's that as first choice.

So whichever of yiz wants to give up Botha or Afoa first..........

If the IRFU let that happen they have no right to come and lecture us about NIQ tightheads.

OK so the answer to your original point is (based on the assumpion that Williams is a greater contributor than Pienaar and Williams is worth 50% of Ulsters success) is that Yes Ulster would still be a force without Williams and Pienaar.

I'm sure I had this one in my GCSE maths paper......

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Verybody raves about Pienaer, but for me without a shadow of a doubt, Nick Williams is the best player at Ulster, without him Ulster are only half of the force they can be, but without Nick Williams and Pienaer, are they a force at all ?

Well by that calculation Pienaar would be of equal value to Williams in terms of contributing to Ulsters net force, so either you're lying about rating Williams higher than Pienaar or you aren't very good at maths......

True, I am not good at maths, but all I am saying is, Ulster WITH Williams and WITHOUT Pienaer would be better than Ulster WITH Pienaar and WITHOUT Williams, but WITHOUT both of them they would be mid table and scrapping with the Glasgows and Scarlets of this world.

Is that the 2nd in the table Glasgow? 2nd to.....Ulster? so without Pienaar and Williams both teams would be mid table?

Confusing stuff.

Williams is a limited enough player. Deadly off a 5M scrum but not a great workrate.

Ulster have him going well and in good shape, he did not look as good in Munster barring a 3 try romp v the Dragons.

Pienaar is a class act. Can play 9 10 and 15 to a high standard and is great with the boot.

Notch wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hands off Moore and Furlong lads.

You better hurry if you want Hagan as I believe he has interest from outside as well as inside Ireland.

I can see Bent going to Munster, however I don't really want to part with him.

He will improve dramatically with gametime imo, I suppose being honest it's best for Ireland if he get's that as first choice.

So whichever of yiz wants to give up Botha or Afoa first..........

If the IRFU let that happen they have no right to come and lecture us about NIQ tightheads.

Sign Tony Buckley then......quick before Wasps do.

OK so would Ulster - (Pienaar + Williams) + Buckley still be a force assuming Williams (50%) > Pienaar(?%) and Buckley (-100%).....

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Wishful thinking there man. Williams and Pienaar have both missed a lot of games and we keep trundling on.

At the same time ?

Yeah, at times. In fact our best home performance of the season in my opinion was against Castres- we won 41-17. Pienaar scored the fourth try but he only got the last 20 minutes off the bench. This was our team.

Ulster
(15 - 9) J Payne; T Bowe, D Cave, P Wallace, A Trimble; P Jackson, P Marshall
(1 - 8) T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (c), D Tuohy, I Henderson, C Henry, M McComish

Replacements (16 - 23) R Herring, C Black, A Macklin, L Stevenson, N McComb, R Pienaar, L Marshall, C Gilroy

I've highlighted several other top-class players outside Williams and Pienaar who would walk into most European sides. For your reference.

I think the fact Ulster have used 45 players this season shows we are more than a one-man team. I've always held to the theory that one player can't carry a rugby team.

Pienaar started against Ospreys, but was ineffective. Why? Our backrow was crap. They were physically overpowered and didn;t clear the ruck. It allowed the Os to disrupt and eventually take him out of the game with a well-timed shoulder charge/ruck clearout. All he got was slow ball.

Similarly at home to Connacht, we limped to a 22-3 win with no bonus point. Williams made yards every time he got the ball but no-one was on his shoulder and no-one was playing off him. Our breakdown again was poor and Connacht were able to slow ball even after Williams got us on the front foot with a typical charge.

Finally- has it escaped your notice that Nick Williams spent the last 2 years of his career starting at number eight for Aironi? Funny how they weren't top of the table since Ulster wouldn't be anything without him. He did well at Aironi, was their top try scorer in fact. But them having one of the best ball carrying forwards in the league didn't make them a better team than any other in the league.

See, when you look at it- it all falls part, your little theory.

Christ you Ulster folk are a touchy lot aren't you. I am only saying what I am seeing, and I see Williams as a wrecking ball continuously breaking the gain line and putting Ulster on the front foot, a lot like Scott Qunniell in his hey day, the man carries at least three players with him every time he has the ball creating space for you Pienaers and Trimbles of this world, I can except Pienars class as a player but I have also seen Jackson have just as much of an influence on the pitch with Williams creating holy havoc around the park with his ability to just not get stopped.

It's a common thing. When you only see a couple of games from a team you miss plenty.

Loads of people were hyping up Leo Auva'a when he was on the front foot last season.

He came from club Rugby (AIL) and may well be headed back there. He has only made our A team this year.

It is easy to notice a 20 stone guy smashing through people, it's less easy to notice him not clearing out rucks and having a lower workrate.

No I'm just messing with you Dowlis, I agree Williams has a huge influence and creates a lot of space for others. We are certainly more potent in attack when he plays.

I actually think our best attacking play comes when Paul Marshall, Williams and Payne are on the field.

Paradoxically I still rate Pienaar as our single best and most influential player.

LordDowlais I think loves Willaims as much as us Ulster fans do, a human wrecking machine,

However I wouldn't put his importance as high as LordDowlais does, We have Wilson at 8 as well and Saints fans (as well as Ulster fans) rate him very highly.

Williams really adds something in attack, but some of the number 8's jobs he isn't great at, control at the back of the scrum, rucks etc.

Wilson is a better all round player, and it's great to have them both as it means we can go for a horses for courses approach.

Therefore for me Williams isn't as important to the team as made out, as he isn't a guarenteed starter. Best, court, Muller, Afoa, Ferris, Bowe, Payne and Pienaar are guarenteed starters and therefore I rate them all more important to Ulster than Willaims.

rodders wrote:No I'm just messing with you Dowlis, I agree Williams has a huge influence and creates a lot of space for others. We are certainly more potent in attack when he plays.

I actually think our best attacking play comes when Paul Marshall, Williams and Payne are on the field.

Paradoxically I still rate Pienaar as our single best and most influential player.

Pienaar is a class act, but he is not the be all and end all you lot seem to think he is, we saw this last Friday against the Ospreys, Williams on the other hand only knows one way to play, and that is front foot rugby, he smashes breakdowns and always gets over the gain line and is probably the highest scoring back row player in the league this year I would have thought.

Williams is the least important of our 5 NIQ.

The fact he is such an useful player shows how valuable these guys are.

One of our main goals in the next 2 years is to come to terms with the fact that we will be losing Afoa and Muller

Dowlias- he was the highest scoring back row forward in the league last season too. It's a lot easier to get credit for it when you have seven good forwards in fron t of you doing the hard graft!

Williams has been massively important this season to be fair, mainly because Roger Wilson and Stephen Ferris have been injured so much! Their seasons haven't got started. They and Williams are our three back row forwards who really can turn slow ball into quick ball and get us back on the front foot- something we desperately lacked against the Ospreys with all three of them injured. But in the absence of Ferris and Wilson, Williams has had much more influence than we expected.

However, the reason you don't notice the fact Williams doesn't do much rucking or tackling is the workrate of our flankers, especially Chris Henry. These past two seasons Henry has been killing other sides momentum in attack by leading the defensive effort and being a nuisance at the breakdown. If we weren't so good in defence, if we weren't so good at winning turnovers and slowing ball, Williams displays wouldn't be in a winning team. And you'd be talking about him less.

Would say Henry is more important than Williams if everyone is fit. Harder to replace.

Against the Ospreys you saw what happens when we have no ball carriers in the backrow, and no great openside on the pitch. I like Diack but not at 8. He doesn't give enough go forward. I feel the same way about Jamie Heaslip. Ireland are crying out right now for an 8 in the mould of Johnnie Beattie or Ben Morgan who can give us go-forward.

I am curious if any Leinster or Munster fans know how their Provinces are going to handle the attempt to reduce to 3 NIQ (including Project style players for 2014-15). I am assuming the plan Ulster have laid out is being replicated at their provinces - at least as a goal to strive for

How would you see it panning out - Howlett to retire for Munster seems an obvious one

If Ulster are going to ditch Williams can you send him over to PYS for us lot.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:If Ulster are going to ditch Williams can you send him over to PYS for us lot.

No way man. We are onto a winner- he's not on big money at all. Amazing no-one else picked up on his potential when he with Aironi- a very cute piece of business.

Unfortunately he is one of the ones staying.

The players we will be losing will be Muller (retirement) and Afoa (will be replaced by someone who is Irish or could qualify through residency) - Sorry!

For Leinster
When O'Driscoll goes he must be replaced by player Ireland-qualified

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0212/1224329948400.html

Because Munster’s Casey Laulala is the designated overseas player wearing the 13 shirt, Leinster would have to look to home-grown talent to fill the position O’Driscoll has held for the province and Ireland since 1999.
“I don’t think we would be allowed get in a world-class centre because of yer man down in Munster. Casey Laulala is covering the position,” said Leinster manager Guy Easterby

With Johnny Sexton leaving for France, outhalf and secondrow appear to be the positions Leinster are thinking about most. Leo Cullen, a year older than O’Driscoll, is also thought to be considering his future. Leinster will be making an announcement soon on lock Quinn Roux as well as backrow Jordi Murphy.



It looks like Guy Easterby, is going by the old IRFU one NIQ player per position? Read that Leinster will get a NIQ 10 and madigan wil be back up.

So Leinster is seams, will keep
Isa Nacewa
add a NIQ outhalf
add/keep NIQ lock
Heinke van der Merwe??

Heinke is almost certainly leaving kingshu

We are currently developing 2 13's for when BOD retires. Macken and EOM. EOM will be our next starting 13 but I think Macken has the potential to make the shirt his own imo.

Next year we will be bringing through Daly and then a few years behind him Harrison Brewer (son of former all black Mike Brewer). We also have mcFadden who can play 13.

We definately wont be signing a 13.

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:If Ulster are going to ditch Williams can you send him over to PYS for us lot.

No way man. We are onto a winner- he's not on big money at all. Amazing no-one else picked up on his potential when he with Aironi- a very cute piece of business.

He was a last minute scramble the way I remember it. Brought in at short notice. Rather than an astute signing. Ulster have done well with him though.

Guy Easterby must have his fingers crossed - the directive is dead and he knows it.

They may well be prevented from replacing BOD with a NIQ but nothing to do with the directive but because there is, as yet, no adequate replacement.

Lualua is already a problem at Munster (in terms of taking game time from NIQ) and Cave is deemed, by Kidney at least, as not good enough.

As for Fly Half - I will be absolutely amazed if a NIQ player will be allowed, at least at a level where he would be in front of Madigan.

There is talk of VdM leaving as part of the reduction of overall NIQ numbers

Kingshu wrote:For Leinster
When O'Driscoll goes he must be replaced by player Ireland-qualified

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0212/1224329948400.html

Because Munster’s Casey Laulala is the designated overseas player wearing the 13 shirt, Leinster would have to look to home-grown talent to fill the position O’Driscoll has held for the province and Ireland since 1999.
“I don’t think we would be allowed get in a world-class centre because of yer man down in Munster. Casey Laulala is covering the position,” said Leinster manager Guy Easterby

With Johnny Sexton leaving for France, outhalf and secondrow appear to be the positions Leinster are thinking about most. Leo Cullen, a year older than O’Driscoll, is also thought to be considering his future. Leinster will be making an announcement soon on lock Quinn Roux as well as backrow Jordi Murphy.



It looks like Guy Easterby, is going by the old IRFU one NIQ player per position? Read that Leinster will get a NIQ 10 and madigan wil be back up.

So Leinster is seams, will keep
Isa Nacewa
add a NIQ outhalf
add/keep NIQ lock
Heinke van der Merwe??

Some of the things in the Leinster pipeline will surprise you. Quit a bit.

Let's say they have a lot of options with NIQs. The other provinces have very few.

geoff998rugby wrote:Guy Easterby must have his fingers crossed - the directive is dead and he knows it.

They may well be prevented from replacing BOD with a NIQ but nothing to do with the directive but because there is, as yet, no adequate replacement.

Lualua is already a problem at Munster (in terms of taking game time from NIQ) and Cave is deemed, by Kidney at least, as not good enough.

As for Fly Half - I will be absolutely amazed if a NIQ player will be allowed, at least at a level where he would be in front of Madigan.

There is talk of VdM leaving as part of the reduction of overall NIQ numbers

We need to sign a fly half as back up to Madigan as there is no way Reid could be 2nd choice.

Think we can then say Leinsters 3 NIQ players
Isa Nacewa
add a NIQ outhalf
add/keep NIQ lock

Ulster
Williams
Pienaar
and a TH who will, probably be what we used to call a Project

Munster
BJ Botha - what will happen TH?
CJ Stander same as Payne IQ or leaves
Doug Howlett retired
Wian du Preez
Casey Laulala both 30, so not sure if they will keep or look at alternatives?
I'd say they will keep Laulala and lose du Preez

Munster NIQ
Casey Laulala
BJ Botha
An other

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:If Ulster are going to ditch Williams can you send him over to PYS for us lot.

No way man. We are onto a winner- he's not on big money at all. Amazing no-one else picked up on his potential when he with Aironi- a very cute piece of business.

He was a last minute scramble the way I remember it. Brought in at short notice. Rather than an astute signing. Ulster have done well with him though.

Well yes and no. True we wanted to keep Wannenburg and he wanted to stay in principle, but left in the end because of the one-year deal being the ceiling. That left us needing a replacement relatively late in the day, so really all our options were relatively last minute, but he was in the mix from the start. So it was a scramble but he was one of our preferred options from the start of that scramble, if that makes sense? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, he was identified and signed as direct successor to the much loved and missed Wannenburg (you'll always be an Ulsterman Pedrie!). Much to the disgust of some Ulster fans, and the misgivings of most! Myself included (in the misgivings category, not the disgust one) Most people in Irish Rugby and Ulster Rugby thought it was a joke signing after the way he went in Munster. A lot of humble pie has been eaten since then. I was surprised by the impact he's had but David Humphreys hasn't been.

Either that, or Humph is just excellent at appearing like it was the masterplan all along when things go right; i.e. Williams signing, ditching Brian McLaughlin etc. Thing is, even when we've thought he's screwed a big decision up it's worked out better for us than the previous status quo so maybe he is just good at his job after all!

Wiliams was not a last minute signing as soon as we knew Wannenberg was not staying Anscombe put forward Williams as a replacement. He was asked whether he could get the best out of him and he said he could.

I agree Leinster could well sign a NIQ 10 but it will a backup to Madigan not a marque signing. I would expect a Lock to be there big NIQ signing. (Sorry did not make that clear earlier)

Williams was at Munster and looked pretty average, only able to make an impact in the dying moments of games opposed to the 60-80 mins he can do now. I'd say Munster are on to more of a winner with CJ Stander.

Kingshu wrote:Think we can then say Leinsters 3 NIQ players
Isa Nacewa
add a NIQ outhalf
add/keep NIQ lock

Ulster
Williams
Pienaar
and a TH who will, probably be what we used to call a Project

Munster
BJ Botha - what will happen TH?
CJ Stander same as Payne IQ or leaves
Doug Howlett retired
Wian du Preez
Casey Laulala both 30, so not sure if they will keep or look at alternatives?
I'd say they will keep Laulala and lose du Preez

Munster NIQ
Casey Laulala
BJ Botha
An other

Sounds about right to me.
I think Leinster big signing will be a lock and the NIQ 10 a squad player. Remember I am talking for 2014-15 - could Nacewa retire by then?

As for Munster certaintly some rumours doing the round that they will be able to keep BJ - but the sticking point may be only 1 year contracts because of age. If he goes I would not be surprised if they are allowed a replacement. In truth the could ditch Lualua in 18 months and that would given them a lot of flexibility re future NIQ. Maybe only 1 other - as the price for having a NIQ TH - just a thought

Anyone know anything official on the NIQ rules for next season? I thought it was 1 per position over the 3 provinces. Have they changed it again?

Notch wrote: I feel the same way about Jamie Heaslip. Ireland are crying out right now for an 8 in the mould of Johnnie Beattie or Ben Morgan who can give us go-forward.

Jack Conan in Leinster. Big and fast no 8 but still in the academy. He should be getting gametime next season.

OK so the "directives" that the IRFU came out with are no longer "Rules" but they are still "Guidelines". i.e. provinces will have to make a good case to get around them. So they are still a usefull way to look at things.

I love the way the likes of Payne has already become IQ in the minds of some, while Roux and Stander have not. :-)

These are the ACTUAL current standings.
Current contract end date, position, and who is NIE or NIQ

Leinster

Nacewa......2014 Position 11......NIE
Goodman......2013 Position 12......NIQ until 2015
Van der Merwe......2013 Position 1......NIE
Free spot
Roux......2013 Position 5......NIQ until 2015

Ulster

Pienaar......2014 Position 9......NIE
Muller ......2014 Position 4......NIE
Afoa......2014 Position 3......NIE
Williams......2014 Position 8......NIE
Payne......2014 Position 15......NIQ until 2014

Munster

Howlett......2013 Position 14......NIE
Botha......2013 Position 3......NIE
Laulala......2014 Position 13......NIE
Du Preez......2014 Position 1......NIE
Stander......2014 Position 6......NIQ until 2015

Spot at hooker, Munster.
Spot at out half, Leinster
Spot at openside, ???

Loose Head will probably go at Leinster. Munster will throw DuPreez under the bus to try and keep Botha.
That is grand and all, but will Botha want to stay if he has a big offer from Toulon or wherever?

Leinster forced to give Munster a TH is the logical answer. Or else Buckley back or Andress or someone.
I reckon Howlett will retire at Munster too. Frees up the 14 spot.

Ulster have another year before they have to worry, but then they could loose up to 1/3 of their starting 15

Leinster have all the cards as they have performed well in bringing players through, but will be losing the most capped centre paring in test Rugby over the next season or so, and have just lost the Lions starting 10.

Ideally we could sign a 2nd row AND keep Roux as a project.
Sign a replacement for Isa when the time comes, and a 10 behind Madigan

That would still leave us with a place to play with or 2 if we don't renew Goodman

profitius wrote:

Jack Conan in Leinster. Big and fast no 8 but still in the academy. He should be getting gametime next season.

Good player, I agree about the gametime. He is only in first year though, so no immediate panic. Jordan Coughlan who may have been ahead of him has changed to centre, hopefully that works out.

The directive is dead in the water Dublin just dont have the balls to come out and publically admit it.

I suspect ther Munster TH situation will be the signing that shows this.
If they stick by the rules Botha should not be retained or replaced by a NIQ or a Project player.