Ospreys, Ireland and Europe, the conundrum !!

O.k, here we are, the one subject that we never seem to discuss, what is it with the Ospreys ? They can go to Ireland and show their provinces there behinds but when it comes to a French or English team, or even an Italian team (Treviso, cough, cough) they just do not seem to be able to get over the line. What is the issue's here ? Do they lack any confidence ? I would say no, as they constantly go to Ireland and win, it cannot be ability as you can see from the previous answer, for me it must be intelligence, perhaps the way they play is better suited against the Irish sides but they lack the intelligence to make the decisions when it comes to playing sides from other European countries, hopefully the young Ospreys can learn from this and get better in time, but for me something must change or they will be forever the under achievers of European rugby. What does eveybody else think ? Perhaps somebody else can solve the conundrum that we call the Ospreys.

Lord Dowlais

I think the channel their energy in the wrong manner.

Ospreys look at Munster, Leinster and now Ulster doing well in Europe and think "We're as good as they are".

They'll lose to Biarritz or Saracens or Tigers or whoever it is in Europe and then come over to Ireland full of bluster and motivated to prove to the Irish Provinces that they are a match for them.

They'll win in Ireland and go back to Wales assuming that they have thrown down a marker to the Irish Provinces and shown their quality.

But they'll go and play away in France or England and not show that same motivation.

red_stag wrote:Lord Dowlais

I think the channel their energy in the wrong manner.

Ospreys look at Munster, Leinster and now Ulster doing well in Europe and think "We're as good as they are".

They'll lose to Biarritz or Saracens or Tigers or whoever it is in Europe and then come over to Ireland full of bluster and motivated to prove to the Irish Provinces that they are a match for them.

They'll win in Ireland and go back to Wales assuming that they have thrown down a marker to the Irish Provinces and shown their quality.

But they'll go and play away in France or England and not show that same motivation.

So you think it is a motivation issue then Stag, if this is the case then arses need to be whipped, or they will just be the also rans in the HC.

Lord Dowlais,

I think that they are channelling their motivation in the wrong way. Not that they are lacking in it.

They seem more focused about being this team who can come and win game in the Rabo in Ireland.

I get the feeling that coming to Thomond Park or the RDS or Ravenhill and winning in a Rabo game means more to Ospreys than beating Treviso at home in the Heineken Cup.

They beat an Ulster side with 20+ players missing (I know they were missing 16 themselves)

Meaningless in terms of assessing relative strengths

geoff998rugby wrote:They beat an Ulster side with 20+ players missing (I know they were missing 16 themselves)

Meaningless in terms of assessing relative strengths

Seriously ?

Just wondering, when was the last time the Ospreys beat an irish province in the HC?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Just wondering, when was the last time the Ospreys beat an irish province in the HC?

Munster at the Liberty stadium a few years back. 2009 I think. When we had all that snow.

LeinsterFan - To be fair when was the last time the Ospreys drew an Irish team in the HEC. Due to the seeding it has been pretty unlikely over the last few seasons.

Ospreys have won the final Pro 12 twice in Dublin

If they can do that they really should be convinced they can travel to anywhere in Europe and win,

The Pro 12 final is sure to have more pressure involved than a H-cup group game.

There are 4 top class teams in the Pro 12 Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Ospreys,

I just feel Ospreys haven't had the group in the H-cup to make the break through, they have the quality, to get to the final, and have proven it in the Pro 12, they just haven't had the rub of the green in Europe.

For the sake of the regions and the Pro 12, we all really need a Welsh team to win the H-cup. Once that happens and the Welsh people have a region that they can be proud off and call the best in Europe, I can see the Pro 12 taking off in Wales. At the minute I get the feeling that Welsh people are a little embrassed by the regions.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:LeinsterFan - To be fair when was the last time the Ospreys drew an Irish team in the HEC. Due to the seeding it has been pretty unlikely over the last few seasons.

Oh ye I know. I didn't mean it like that, I was just wondering

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:They beat an Ulster side with 20+ players missing (I know they were missing 16 themselves)

Meaningless in terms of assessing relative strengths

Seriously ?

Yep seriously - Ulster had 3 of their best XV playing in the starting lineup and 2 others out of position.
I am sure Ospreys had similarly low numbers.
In terms of which team has the stronger starting XV it was meaningless

The Ospreys did beat Toulouse in France this season, so they are not exactly shy of big teams in the HEC. ANd the fact that they lost to Treviso in the HEC should not be held against their HEC form, because they lost to Treviso in the Rabo too this season.

Kingshu wrote:Ospreys have won the final Pro 12 twice in Dublin

Ulster have won in Dublin too.

It's just that it was in the same millennium as the battle of Hastings

Don't worry, you'll get another crack at the end of next month

I'll get me coat.....again.

geoff998rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:They beat an Ulster side with 20+ players missing (I know they were missing 16 themselves)

Meaningless in terms of assessing relative strengths

Seriously ?

Yep seriously - Ulster had 3 of their best XV playing in the starting lineup and 2 others out of position.
I am sure Ospreys had similarly low numbers.
In terms of which team has the stronger starting XV it was meaningless

Right ok I will name the Ospreys players missing, you name the ulster players missing, off the top of my head:-

Adam Jones
Justin Tupric
Ryan Jones
Ian Evans
Dan Biggar
Richard hibbard

Thats six international players there not including all the injuries, I still do not get what your point is though, at the end of the day, the Ospreys went to Ulster and won, facts are facts.

From Ulster's starting XV - 10 players missing:

Best
Afoa
Tuohy
Ferris
Williams
Henry
Jackson
Cave
Bowe
Payne

2 players out of position:

Court
L Marshall

Hence my figures.
Facts are facts but Ospreys winning the game, which they deserve to do does not reflect the strength of the respective teams which is where we came in.

Best,Afoa,Williams,Ferris and Bowe I will give you as a big miss but the rest are no better than what the Ospreys were missing or putting out on Friday, at the same time Afoa is no bigger miss than adam Jones for the Ospreys, Neither is Ferris a bigger loss than Ryan Jones, Williams no bigger miss than Tuperic, so you just have Tommy Bowe, at the end of the day it is a squad game anyway, it's not the Ospreys fault that they have better stregnth in depth than Ulster, perhaps they should have paid less money on fancy foriegn imports and getting a very good first fifteen and try and build some stregnth in depth.

wow...hold on tiger dont get so hot under the collar

The goal post have changed I see, sorry cant keep up with your changing of logic

As for your knowledge of the manner Ulster are conducting themselves in order to develop the team and improve lets just say its less than zero

Hold on lads- we know both sides were missing loads of players. Ravenhill the week of a test match and Ravenhill in the Heineken Cup are different things. Not easier as such- but different.

You can't compare playing in France or England when everyone is available on BOTH sides to a Pro12 game with loads of players missing. And thats not trying to discredit the Ospreys win on Friday, I'm just saying- thats apples and oranges. Not the same thing in terms of intensity or pressure. Arguing over who had more players missing is beside the point.

i agree Notch, I just do not get his point, I asked the question of how the Ospreys can go to Ireland and beat the provinces but fail most other places and Geoff went on about players missing ect. Facts are facts the Ospreys do go to Ireland and beat the provinces, not matter who is playing for who.

Sorry Ulster boys but I do not buy it for a second.

Remember the away win in France this preseason? I logged here after Ulster beat Castres in France and all those wise Ulster fans were (correctly IMO) saying that the preseason victory in France was important in that they had come over and won in what is traditionally a very difficult place. Even if the result wasn't significant the victory was still very valuable.

Ulster also felt the same way about that time you came down and beat the living snot out of us in Thomond Park about 3 years ago - that even though result wasn't key it was still a big achievement.

Don't try and belittle other teams for winning in Ravenhill.

LD we had far more than 6 players missing from the team selected against Ulster, Dirksen,Bishop,Beck,Biggar,Walker,Adam,Hibbard,AWJ,Evans,Ryan and Tipuric, that game was basically an A team match. No comparison can be made between that and any HC match this season.

red_stag wrote:Sorry Ulster boys but I do not buy it for a second.

Remember the away win in France this preseason? I logged here after Ulster beat Castres in France and all those wise Ulster fans were (correctly IMO) saying that the preseason victory in France was important in that they had come over and won in what is traditionally a very difficult place. Even if the result wasn't significant the victory was still very valuable.

Ulster also felt the same way about that time you came down and beat the living snot out of us in Thomond Park about 3 years ago - that even though result wasn't key it was still a big achievement.

Don't try and belittle other teams for winning in Ravenhill.

Yup.

LordDowlais wrote:i agree Notch, I just do not get his point, I asked the question of how the Ospreys can go to Ireland and beat the provinces but fail most other places and Geoff went on about players missing ect. Facts are facts the Ospreys do go to Ireland and beat the provinces, not matter who is playing for who.

Well if you agree with me you obviously don't get his point- as I am making exactly the same point. There. Sorted

Stag, I don't know why you think my point that winning in the Pro12 is different to winning in the Heineken Cup is belittling the achievement of Ospreys winning last week. They beat us fair and square. They were the better team and I'm sure their coaches were delighted with the achievement. That they'll have been so pleased is in itself a compliment to us.

But inevitably a game when Ulster had 20 players missing and Ospreys had 18 players missing has a different hue to a Heineken Cup game where both are at full strength minus injuries. It's not about who had more players missing or this and that, Holly Wilaboobie for tat... I'm just saying they should compare like with like. Playing in Heineken Cup games and playoffs.

At the same time, I'm absolutely certain that the psychological boost Ospreys will have taken from winning at Ravenhill could be crucial for them. In many ways, the above holds the key to why I think Ospreys can do better away against Irish teams than English or French sides in those big games.

Ulster enjoyed two key away wins in the Heineken Cup in recent times; our quarter-final win in Thomond Park and our away win in Castres. Both were preceded by psychologically important wins in less meaningful games like the pre-season game in France and the big win we had over Christmas in Thomond when both sides were weaker due to IRFU protocols (I remember in the run-up Ulster fans were bemoaning Rory Best being on the bench etc.). Those games were obviously less significant than the Heineken Cup wins, but they paved the way psychologically. They chipped away at the illusion that Thomond is an impregnable fortress or a trip to France is a hopeless endeavor.

I think the answer to the OP is; habituation. You just won at Ravenhill Dowlias- the game was much less meaningful due to international commitments on both sides, even to the point where players had to be played out of position on both sides due to absentees. But for all that, if you were to be lined up for a playoff final in Ravenhill that win would be very important in the Ospreys camp as proof they can do it. And I know that for sure.

I certainly didn't come out of Ravenhill a happy bunny on Friday. I was furious. This was a massively important game for Ulster in the context of our season, massive. We had to lay a marker down for the playoffs and we played well below par, even counting the injuries and absentees. Now the aura of Ravenhill has been punctured. If you look at the fixture list, had we beaten Ospreys it was very possible we could have gone the whole regular season unbeaten at home. We have the two Italian sides and the two lesser Welsh sides to come after this. That would have given us a massive psychological advantage in the playoffs but we squandered it.

You don't get the opportunity to play French and English sides every week. The more you play a team, especially if you beat them, the more mortal they seem.

Were the Ospreys more motivated to beat Ulster at Ravenhill than they were to win at the Liberty, do you think?

An interesting comparison might be to see if they have the same hoodoo over Irish sides at home.

To be honest I'm not sure why this has turned into Ospreys V Ulster thread?

Ulster are only one in a line of wins Ospreys have had in ireland, we don't need to pick each one apart.

The general theme is Ospreys can win against some of the best teams in Europe (the provinces), but yet don't seam to manage the same results against other big teams in Europe.

They have beaten Leinster in pro 12 final (x2) and Munster in the semi final (big games with full strenght teams), and in the league they can beat any of the 4 Provinces (and would have an equal record against them)

So the question is if the Ospreys have proved themselves equal to the Provinces both in big one off games (the play offs) and over the long term using squad depth (finishing in play offs each year), then how come they are not the equal of the Provinces in Europe?? (They have a better record than Connacht to be fair).

Kingshu wrote:To be honest I'm not sure why this has turned into Ospreys V Ulster thread?

Ulster are only one in a line of wins Ospreys have had in ireland, we don't need to pick each one apart.

No we don't. It's just a sign of the rivalry between the teams, I guess. Ospreys are the best Welsh region and have been for a while and Ireland versus Wales has grown into a bigger rivalry than Ireland vs England in the Pro-era in my opinion.

I wasn't best pleased at losing to the Ospreys! And I bet they felt likewise after the game at the Liberty earlier this season. But it poses the question, whether our rivalry in the Pro12 gives them more motivation to beat us and whether the rivalry between Ireland and Wales (which Wales have been on the winning side of until a week or two ago) also gives them more belief in their regional side.

This is a genuine question.

Have they beaten an Irish province in a high-stakes, full-on pressure Rabo knock-out game when they weren't already out of the HEC, but the province wasn't either still competing in it or hadn't just won it?

Maybe losing to those HEC teams, and going out of the competition, allows the Ospreys to focus on the big Rabo games with the provinces?

geoff998rugby wrote:From Ulster's starting XV - 10 players missing:

Best
Afoa
Tuohy
Ferris
Williams
Henry
Jackson
Cave
Bowe
Payne

2 players out of position:

Court
L Marshall

Hence my figures.
Facts are facts but Ospreys winning the game, which they deserve to do does not reflect the strength of the respective teams which is where we came in.

Jeez geoff, a win is a win. You don't see any Ospreys fan dismissing Ulster's win at the Lib at the start of the season. Alternatively, you could look at past results, say the last two years? They're heavily weighted in Ospreys favour rather than the Irish Provinces (hence this article). I think Ospreys just lost at Ravenhill, I believe it was last year, to the most dubious penalty decision ever. Otherwise they would have had a clean sweep.

"The Ospreys did beat Toulouse in France this season," -- No, they didn't. Toulouse beat them very comfortably on the scoreboard in France, but Ospreys beat them at home at the Liberty.

LordDowlais wrote:Best,Afoa,Williams,Ferris and Bowe I will give you as a big miss but the rest are no better than what the Ospreys were missing or putting out on Friday, at the same time Afoa is no bigger miss than adam Jones for the Ospreys, Neither is Ferris a bigger loss than Ryan Jones, Williams no bigger miss than Tuperic, so you just have Tommy Bowe, at the end of the day it is a squad game anyway, it's not the Ospreys fault that they have better stregnth in depth than Ulster, perhaps they should have paid less money on fancy foriegn imports and getting a very good first fifteen and try and build some stregnth in depth.

Ospreys 'strength in depth' ain't that good LD. The backs especially where you have to start with three scrum-halves. That's just utter lunacy. Don't call me up now because you won in Belfast. That was down to the Ospreys pack (who were at the bare bones too).

Morgannwg wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:From Ulster's starting XV - 10 players missing:

Best
Afoa
Tuohy
Ferris
Williams
Henry
Jackson
Cave
Bowe
Payne

2 players out of position:

Court
L Marshall

Hence my figures.
Facts are facts but Ospreys winning the game, which they deserve to do does not reflect the strength of the respective teams which is where we came in.

Jeez geoff, a win is a win. You don't see any Ospreys fan dismissing Ulster's win at the Lib at the start of the season. Alternatively, you could look at past results, say the last two years? They're heavily weighted in Ospreys favour rather than the Irish Provinces (hence this article). I think Ospreys just lost at Ravenhill, I believe it was last year, to the most dubious penalty decision ever. Otherwise they would have had a clean sweep.

Isn't it always the way?

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:i agree Notch, I just do not get his point, I asked the question of how the Ospreys can go to Ireland and beat the provinces but fail most other places and Geoff went on about players missing ect. Facts are facts the Ospreys do go to Ireland and beat the provinces, not matter who is playing for who.

Well if you agree with me you obviously don't get his point- as I am making exactly the same point. There. Sorted

Well no, because I believe LD is referring to Irish Provincial teams in general. Not just the Ulster side from last friday night. Saying that though, there are a few Irish who will come out with any number of excuses anyway. I agree with him. The Irish are among the best in europe. Playing and beating them over a long period is the best practice you can get, surely?

Notch wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:From Ulster's starting XV - 10 players missing:

Best
Afoa
Tuohy
Ferris
Williams
Henry
Jackson
Cave
Bowe
Payne

2 players out of position:

Court
L Marshall

Hence my figures.
Facts are facts but Ospreys winning the game, which they deserve to do does not reflect the strength of the respective teams which is where we came in.

Jeez geoff, a win is a win. You don't see any Ospreys fan dismissing Ulster's win at the Lib at the start of the season. Alternatively, you could look at past results, say the last two years? They're heavily weighted in Ospreys favour rather than the Irish Provinces (hence this article). I think Ospreys just lost at Ravenhill, I believe it was last year, to the most dubious penalty decision ever. Otherwise they would have had a clean sweep.

Isn't it always the way?

I don't remember any O's fans crying about it at the time. But when I seen it in the highlights I couldn't believe it. So maybe it's just me. It was 'lazy running' apparently.

Look, why has this turned into a peeing match with the Ulster fans over Friday nights game ? The Ospreys have beaten better Irish sides in Ireland than the current Ulster side even when it is full to the brim with it's multi award winning foreign superstars.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, why has this turned into a peeing match with the Ulster fans over Friday nights game ? The Ospreys have beaten better Irish sides in Ireland than the current Ulster side even when it is full to the brim with it's multi award winning foreign superstars.

It's not. Geoff tried to start it that way and then we intervened. Jeez

geoff998rugby wrote:They beat an Ulster side with 20+ players missing (I know they were missing 16 themselves)

Meaningless in terms of assessing relative strengths

ulster still had some seriously talented first team players in their team, no matter who was out...!

R Andrew; A Trimble, L Marshall, P Wallace, M Allen; S Olding, R Pienaar; C Black, R Herring, T Court; J Muller (capt), L Stevenson; M McComish, A Birch, R Diack.

Marshall and Wallace are both 12's, they can't both be first choice

Plus Court is a loosehead, PLUS IT DOESN'T MATTER.

That was a decent Ulster team guys. Not your best but neither was the team we fielded.

Credit is being given in the OP and is very much appreciated by us Ospreys fans. We haven't had a great year and to beat an Ulster team at Ravenhill, even during the international window is a serious achievement for us. The accolade of this post is very warming indeed.

Ulster have been the best team, and squad, in Europe this season. We all have a huge amount of respect for them. It was a cracking game, really enjoyable and you have to say that the try that won the match was a great one too.

maestegmafia wrote:That was a decent Ulster team guys. Not your best but neither was the team we fielded.

Credit is being given in the OP and is very much appreciated by us Ospreys fans. We haven't had a great year and to beat an Ulster team at Ravenhill, even during the international window is a serious achievement for us. The accolade of this post is very warming indeed.

Ulster have been the best team, and squad, in Europe this season. We all have a huge amount of respect for them. It was a cracking game, really enjoyable and you have to say that the try that won the match was a great one too.

It was a fully deserved victory.

I would have a different perspective on the game. It was hugely frustrating that we made so many errors in the lineout, losing over six lineouts with inaccurate throws to the tail. We made stupid, uncharacteristic mistakes. We ran sideways looking for space instead of looking to employ the offloading game that has characterised our best performances this season. Our clearing of rucks was pathetic. Our talismanic scrum-half Pienaar had one of his poorer displays, shoveling slow ball onto an inexperienced 10. Eventually our backrows failure to protect him at a ruck ended in him picking up an injury and leaving the pitch- thankfully it was just a stinger. Our backrow failed to get across the gain line, at all, and it was all too easy for the Ospreys defence.

None of that is an excuse. This Ulster team is nowhere near as good as we'd like you to think it is- we've had more poor displays than good ones this season. But the only once this season have we put out a half-decent team and lost. We make ourselves hard to beat. We win games we have no business winning. Ospreys dominated us everywhere but the scoreboard. Their defence was smothering. They exploited Tom Court playing out of position at tighthead. The wrapped up all our ball carriers, they were more physical at the point of contact and they cleared the rucks better. And they knew when to give away the penalty, when to kill the ball, when to sneak offside, when to lead with the shoulder. All this, and at 12-9 they were still behind late in the second half. They had done everything right and yet they would still need a moment of magic to decide the game.

So credit it to them because they produced it. And let us be furious because we let you. Thats the way it is- we could have won that game had we played closer to our own potential. It was another below par performance from Ulster in a season with plenty of them. And it's a mark of how well we're developing that we could have swayed the game our way like we have so many others this year, but if you keep underperforming you're gonna get burnt sooner or later. And Ospreys were smart enough, physical enough and had enough belief in themselves to hang in there and capitalise.

Stag once told me Declan Kidney said there are three types of game; the ones you win, the ones you are outclassed in and have to admit you'd no chance and the ones you lose but know you left a potential win out there because you didn't do enough, you didn't play to your potential. This game was definitely the third of those for Ulster. We could have- perhaps even should have- closed out that game much better. And when we went behind, we could have been more accurate, more composed, more creative.Thats not disrespectful to the Ospreys, it doesn't discredit your win. We've played worse and won this season because the opposition didn't have what it takes. Ospreys had it where it matters. And Ulster- looked lethargic in comparison to how we've played at our best.

But, but... if you were away in France with 15 minutes to go and 12-9 down despite being the better team- would you be as composed and determined as you were at Ravenhill? I think thats your big problem and has been for a while. Part of the reason why you flatter to deceive. We were similarly poor against Castres as we were against Ospreys. It was another poor Ulster performance, the lineout again misfired, we leaked a soft try, we slipped off a few tackles and we didn't look after the ball. But in the last 20 minutes- with the scores poised at 9-8- I don't think we missed a single tackle and we turned them over in our own 22 multiple times. We actually held Castres to 0 in that second half despite everything to run out 9-8 winners.

Had we had that level of resolve and focus, we would have beaten you on Friday. We slipped up. You were the ones with the focus, determination, resolve. That time, it was your turn. And I hate losing to you, but I can't help giving your team some begrudging respect for it. As for us- we need to learn the lessons of it. Teams have bad days. But it goes to show there is a lot we can still improve upon. I still think this Ulster team is falling short of its potential. It will take us time to start performing to our potential in the league, and the fans need to be realistic about this.

Maybe the provinces are just better in Europe than they are in the league? Maybe Ospreys are better in the league than they are in Europe. Maybe it's a combination of both.

Some people are easy to take offence.

Ospreys won and deservedly so, as I have already said.
However the original post suggests in some way this shows Ospreys ability to best the Irish in their own back yard.

My point was a simple one that the huge number of players missing, on both sides, mean that this particular result had no relevance in regard to evaluating the different strengths of the respective sides.

In addition we need to remember Ulster had not played for 3 weeks and Ospreys had - ring rustiness was a factor imv.

To be Fair to the O's the last two HC groups have not been the best.

This year they won two games at home, and were unlucky not to pick up the third. They had three strong teams. Treviso almost beat Tigers and so O's losing is not really a suprise esp when you look at the year before.

The year before they lost twice to Sarries and they away to Biarrtiz (who did go on to win the Amlin). They drew with Treviso who that year would have beaten Saries at home but for stringer getting under the ball in the try area.

But then if you look at connacht this year they did no worse then O's with a top English team and Biarrtiz. When was the last time the O's won an away game in the HC and who was it against. There away form in the HC is terrible.

Also until Ulster started picking up away wins they did what O's are doing now. The other problem is when the big teams in the HC go and play away they expect atleast a LBP but O's seem to just get blown away

How about we change this from Ospreys beating Ulster, to when they beat Munster in the play offs last year?

Ok Ospreys were at home, but both teams were out of Europe, and this was a big game for both teams, big pressure, and a knock out game.

Ospreys beat Munster (that years H-cup Q-finalists) and went on the beat Leinster (H-cup winners) in Dublin.

We really don't need to talk about Ulster, for this thread, its just a small mention, in the grand scheme of the thread, but seams to have picked up most attention.

So in BIG games Ospreys beat Munster (that years H-cup Q-finalists) and went on the beat Leinster (H-cup winners) in Dublin, but cannot seam to be able to do this in Europe against similar (or lesser) quality teams. should be what we are discussing not who had the weaker team on Friday?

Agree Kingshu

I don't know if it is that the players aren't as intemidated by the Irish as they might be by the bigger English and French teams. Treviso at home in the past have beaten quite a few teams and only been ten mins from beating other teams. This year against toulouse Treviso got a good lead but were pulled back and then lost as the momentum had shifted back.

Also Apart from Leinster and their own group I think they would have been happy with the other groups, maybe not munster's but hard to say.

It is also worth pointing out that since the dodgy pass till two weeks ago the irish players haven't troubled a welsh team really and our quick ball has always been useless against the welsh, I think this pays a big part in the O's sucess against Irish teams.

O's are kind of like Northampton. The big English teams don't seem to bother them but apart from their final three years ago they haven't been able to do the same against other top european teams