Ospreys, Ireland and Europe, the conundrum !!

First topic message reminder :

O.k, here we are, the one subject that we never seem to discuss, what is it with the Ospreys ? They can go to Ireland and show their provinces there behinds but when it comes to a French or English team, or even an Italian team (Treviso, cough, cough) they just do not seem to be able to get over the line. What is the issue's here ? Do they lack any confidence ? I would say no, as they constantly go to Ireland and win, it cannot be ability as you can see from the previous answer, for me it must be intelligence, perhaps the way they play is better suited against the Irish sides but they lack the intelligence to make the decisions when it comes to playing sides from other European countries, hopefully the young Ospreys can learn from this and get better in time, but for me something must change or they will be forever the under achievers of European rugby. What does eveybody else think ? Perhaps somebody else can solve the conundrum that we call the Ospreys.

Brendan wrote:It is also worth pointing out that since the dodgy pass till two weeks ago the irish players haven't troubled a welsh team really and our quick ball has always been useless against the welsh, I think this pays a big part in the O's sucess against Irish teams.

O's are kind of like Northampton. The big English teams don't seem to bother them but apart from their final three years ago they haven't been able to do the same against other top european teams

Leinster beat the Scarlets quite comfortably away and hammered them at home in the HC. Our bogey team is definately the Ospreys though.

The Ospreys have a mental block I'd say. Like Irelands mental block against some opposition, they'll be playing well and maybe even on top of the opposition in a match and then go and blow it with comical errors.

This seasons away match against Leicester is a good example. I backed them with a 7point handicap and they were looking very good and likely winners at one point in the second have but deep inside the Leicester half they made some comical errors which allowed Leicester to score. After that they completely collapsed.

I also don't think they're very good any more. That boat has sailed now. Last summer they lost Bowe, Williams, James etc. They're still a tough team who have underachieved in the HEC.

I think it is fair to say if you can compete with the Irish Provinces in big games (ie play offs) you should be able to compete with any team in Europe.

Ospreys have been unlucky with H-cup groups, but having an Italian team used to be seen as a good thing.

Dropping to being a third seed team is always going to make it harder for them, Good news is Leinster, Ulster and Munster are likily to be top seeds next year, so there if a 50/50 chance Ospreys will be in a group with an Irish Province and we know they could do well against them.

Don Alfonso wrote:This is a genuine question.

Have they beaten an Irish province in a high-stakes, full-on pressure Rabo knock-out game when they weren't already out of the HEC, but the province wasn't either still competing in it or hadn't just won it?

Maybe losing to those HEC teams, and going out of the competition, allows the Ospreys to focus on the big Rabo games with the provinces?

I am pretty convinced that situation has never arisen and couldn't unless both Ospreys and an Irish province were in the final.

Considering the amount of players that will likely be leaving Wales, Ireland and Scotland for the huge budgets of England and France, this might not happen for some time.

They may be a trickle of Irish players leaving in the next couple of years 2/3 more perhaps but nothing like Wales and Scotland.

I honestly cannot think of any IQ Ulster player who would both attract outside interest who is interested in going

geoff998rugby wrote:They may be a trickle of Irish players leaving in the next couple of years 2/3 more perhaps but nothing like Wales and Scotland.

I honestly cannot think of any IQ Ulster player who would both attract outside interest who is interested in going

Sorry Geoff but this one's a bit of an exaggeration. Ulster players will leave the same as any other team.

Last season you saw Conor Gaston, Ian Humphreys, Ian Whitten, Tim Barker, Jerry Cronin, Andy Kyriacou, James McKinny all Irish Qualified players, who attracted interested from outside Ireland and were interested enough to leave Ulster.

Did ulster want to keep any of those players?

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:They may be a trickle of Irish players leaving in the next couple of years 2/3 more perhaps but nothing like Wales and Scotland.

I honestly cannot think of any IQ Ulster player who would both attract outside interest who is interested in going

Sorry Geoff but this one's a bit of an exaggeration. Ulster players will leave the same as any other team.

Last season you saw Conor Gaston, Ian Humphreys, Ian Whitten, Tim Barker, Jerry Cronin, Andy Kyriacou, James McKinny all Irish Qualified players, who attracted interested from outside Ireland and were interested enough to leave Ulster.

All of which not being good enough for the Ulster first team, and some with their best days behind them.

Morgannwg and London Tiger,

I completely understand why they moved but still they were IQ players who attracted interest from other countries and they went there.

Players may not be interested until the offers come in.

With just 4 pro teams - it is likely that players will move on, especially if they are not wanted where they are (see Tomas O'Leary as well). These are the sort of players that english clubs can afford, because despiter continued assertions we do not have massive budgets.

Far more worrying for any country is if there is a continued exodus of players that the clubs want to keep - but are unable to either due to finance or player ambitions. This is typically to France as they have had the budgets.

I think Sexton and gray are the only players to Leave Scotland and Ireland who the unions wanted to keep. Wales will have nearly a whole team in france next year and they will not be playing much games.

England are not losing the top players they were to france.

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:They may be a trickle of Irish players leaving in the next couple of years 2/3 more perhaps but nothing like Wales and Scotland.

I honestly cannot think of any IQ Ulster player who would both attract outside interest who is interested in going

Sorry Geoff but this one's a bit of an exaggeration. Ulster players will leave the same as any other team.

Last season you saw Conor Gaston, Ian Humphreys, Ian Whitten, Tim Barker, Jerry Cronin, Andy Kyriacou, James McKinny all Irish Qualified players, who attracted interested from outside Ireland and were interested enough to leave Ulster.

Well I was talking about top notch player seen as key to the Ulster set up - that does not apply to any of the above. Ferris, Tuohy, Court, Gilroy and the like. None of the ones you mention were 1st XV players at the end of last year. We are talking money attracting players away not squad players leaving

Gaston - allowed to leave as not consider good enough
Humphreys - told his contract would not be renewed and allowed to leave
Whitten - allowed to leave because with, at the time, Marshall and Spence, Farrell coming through the ranks it was understood his game time would be limited
Barker - retired from professional rugby
Cronin - seen as surplus to requirements
Kyriacou - effectively kicked out
McKinney went to England to gain experience and will be back - for next year if rumours are correct

It may seem harsh but Irish International rugby will not be any weaker by these players leaving and the only players who would/could provide a level of performance at club level whould be Whitten and, potentially, McKinney

I think the IRFU would break the bank before they would let their top players move overseas

It is fine to have one or two but I think the IRFU learned their lesson when professionalism started and all the top players moved.

Also the sponership deals in Ireland have to be nice enough which they would get in the UK or France

Ii wonder that with players demands increasing due to bigger offers from France, wil the IRFU introduce a 4th autumn international to pay for the higher wages?

I think it may be something in the pipeline, for Ireland to compete with the wages being offered for top players in France. Hopefully the French limits on non french players start taking effect soon, before the wages get to inflated.

I think you have it a bit confused Stag. Marquee players leaving is a sign of weakness. Academy players popping up in other leagues is a sign our underage systems are strong. Squad players leaving for more gametime is a sign competition for places is running high, another positive.

The thing with four provinces is, places are limited. We have a maximum of about around 120, 140 professional rugby contracts in Ireland; thats everyone from Brian O'Driscoll to Danny Barnes, Jamie Heaslip to Mike McComish. If the system is producing more players with the ability to play professional rugby that we can accommodate then we are in a strong position because it is more likely that the ones that remain are the elite.

Its not binary like that, either players leave or players stay and thats the story. Players leaving can indicate that teams are not good enough or rich enough to keep them- can also indicate that teams academy systems are operating at a surplus. What we have to look at with players leaving is a) why they are leaving b) what position they are in c) What were we offering to pay them d) Where they are going e) what they are getting paid there and f) the rugby nous and judgement ability of the guy making the decisions on contract negotiations at our end

If a player is leaving because he feels he has no realistic chance of achieving his goals in Ireland and is getting paid more elsewhere, it's reflective of a problem at their home province and a weakness in our system.

If a player is leaving because he can't get enough gametime, is going to another Pro12 side and is getting paid the same or less in his new contract- thats an indication of strength at that province. It shows that competition is fierce and a player good enough for our rivals isn't good enough for us because we have better options.

f) is the hardest variable for fans not involved in professional rugby to quantify. We don't have the same expertise as people in professional rugby so its hard to judge people doing those jobs- plus we only see players in matchday situations, not in training or in social situations related to their jobs.

b) is the most important in the health of the national team. We should not be alarmed that Tommy Seymour, a former Ulster winger and player I wish had decided to stay with us, has declared for Scotland and been selected in their squad for the Six Nations due to Irish strength in depth in the back three. Were it Declan Fitzpatrick lining out in blue alarm bells should ring!

I didn't read all that but the for the measured and appropriate ulilisation of the word "binary" alone in a rugby forum surely makes it worth a + 1

That said from what I did read it seem to be a great post.

Geoff and Notch,

You are only mentioning "marquee players" now. A few minutes ago you maintained that it was all Irish Qualified players.

I don't have anything confused Notch. Geoff made an point about how no IQ player would leave Ulster. I questioned him on it and he has now clarified that he meant Marquee Irish Qualified Players not all IQ ones.

I agree in full that your top players are unlikely to leave.

Notch wrote:I think you have it a bit confused Stag. Marquee players leaving is a sign of weakness.

I didn't read it all either. But it could be a sign of...... IRFU Ineptitude, Player greed, Agent greed, Massive French offers. Bad communication between Union and Players/Agents, loads of other stuff.

If players leave en masse then I would agree. Like happened in the past at Ulster with Bowe, Wilson, Boss. Or Leinster with Cullen and Jennings.

For example. Zebo was the subject of a few offers but chose to sign a 3 year deal at Munster.

Possibly not as big an offer as Sexton but nonetheless, It was a good sign. He could be the subject of a huge offer in 3 years time who knows.

Does that mean Leinster are "weak" but Munster are not?

red_stag wrote:Geoff and Notch,

You are only mentioning "marquee players" now. A few minutes ago you maintained that it was all Irish Qualified players.

I don't have anything confused Notch. Geoff made an point about how no IQ player would leave Ulster. I questioned him on it and he has now clarified that he meant Marquee Irish Qualified Players not all IQ ones.

I agree in full that your top players are unlikely to leave.

Ah hold on now! Geoff said that. Not me. Also, its not about our top players in Ulster. Its about the whole Irish system- and how in what situations leaving is indicative of problems and when it's indicative of strengths.

If you were thinking in long-term... er... terms you could could say the fact that we're producing a surplus of one key resource (players) bodes well for future expansion of the provinces. You ideally want the overspill from Munster, Leinster and Ulster to stay in Ireland.

But this doesn't take into account finance and most importantly supporter base. We really should be trying to persaud more leavers like Humphreys, Whitten etc. to take their talents West to Connacht. In this case the point about what they are getting paid comes into play. London Irish and Exeter could probably table better deals.

I think it's obvious increasing funding to Connacht is in everyones best interests when I look at it this way

No probs Notch. For what its worth I agree with your post in full.

Irish players will always have to leave Ireland. We have a finite amount of spots open for professionals.

I don't have anything confused Notch. Geoff made an point about how no IQ player would leave Ulster.

and I was responding to the reference
..Considering the amount of players that will likely be leaving Wales, Ireland and Scotland for the huge budgets of England and France, this might not happen for some time

which doesn't apply to any of the players mentioned.

The problems of a linear thread

Geoff please lay off the red ink mate, it is there for moderation purposes. Also wecneed to keep the colours bland for the benefit of those logging on at their workplaces.

Biltong wrote:Geoff please lay off the red ink mate, it is there for moderation purposes. Also wecneed to keep the colours bland for the benefit of those logging on at their workplaces.

he he. and I thought it was just me he didn't like quoting.

when you don't quote people, other people have to look back through the thread to find out who said what originally. Can be a pain on the hole.

No problem guys

Brendan wrote:It is also worth pointing out that since the dodgy pass till two weeks ago the irish players haven't troubled a welsh team really and our quick ball has always been useless against the welsh, I think this pays a big part in the O's sucess against Irish teams.

O's are kind of like Northampton. The big English teams don't seem to bother them but apart from their final three years ago they haven't been able to do the same against other top european teams

Brendan you say the big English teams don't seem to bother Northampton. I think you'll need to look at Saints record vs Saracens in the last 4 years in the AP. Plus I am sure the likes of Saints and Leicester have done quite well vs them too recently.

Plus this season most of the top sides have beaten them so far - Saracens x 2, Gloucester x2, Leicester, Quins.

Ospreys have been unfortunate to face possibly the two toughest English sides they could in the last two HC seasons.

I suppose the Ospreys are like Saints in their inability to beat these two sides.

Why both side struggle? It's all psychological.Both Saints and Ospreys should have talented enough teams to pick up the wins but seem to falter.

Cheers boy's you have turned this thread into another Ulster one. Sheesh, Ulster have come good now after about ten years and all you get is Ulster this Ulster that, do you realise you can be very good and humble at the same time.

LordDowlais wrote:Cheers boy's you have turned this thread into another Ulster one. Sheesh, Ulster have come good now after about ten years and all you get is Ulster this Ulster that, do you realise you can be very good and humble at the same time.

It's every 7 years.

14 Since hc. 7 since celtic league. they are due a trophy this season

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Cheers boy's you have turned this thread into another Ulster one. Sheesh, Ulster have come good now after about ten years and all you get is Ulster this Ulster that, do you realise you can be very good and humble at the same time.

It's every 7 years.

14 Since hc. 7 since celtic league. they are due a trophy this season

Is there a Trophy for most talked about team on 606, think we could get than one. If its most talked about subject, then we'd be second to Gavin Henson.

Kingshu wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Cheers boy's you have turned this thread into another Ulster one. Sheesh, Ulster have come good now after about ten years and all you get is Ulster this Ulster that, do you realise you can be very good and humble at the same time.

It's every 7 years.

14 Since hc. 7 since celtic league. they are due a trophy this season

Is there a Trophy for most talked about team on 606, think we could get than one. If its most talked about subject, then we'd be second to Gavin Henson.

I think it is just that there are a lot of Ulster Prot.....sorry posters on the forum. Many of the Munster ones have left and there are much less Leinster and Connacht fans.

Also a lot of them post often, like yourself, Rodders & Notch for example.

Actually I think you will fine a few of us are not Ulster Prot......but we are posters

geoff998rugby wrote:Actually I think you will fine a few of us are not Ulster Prot......but we are posters

Ah sure I know. I just typed the first few letters by accident then thought I'd leave it as it was funny.

I realise that up there it is best not to comment on stuff like that for fear of upsetting someone. That will pass. Some day Marches on either side will be as controversial as morris dancing..... Hopefully

Check this for light hearted take on it from down here

http://plaintalking.ie/how-to-spot-an-irish-protestant/

http://plaintalking.ie/how-to-spot-an-irish-protestant/

Love it!

I think a bit of craic about it is all well and good. Just the other day I was chatting with my mate about how I'd been to the Grand Social in Dublin, and lots of strangers were really friendly- coming up to chat and that. He said something like I've never had that experience and I automatically replied "Sure thats because they can smell the Prod off ya". Didn't think much of it, we had a laugh about it you know- who's the bigger prod. I maintained I don't look like a prod, another friend maintains I do etc. etc. Of course thats all cool because a Prod can call a Prod a Prod, right? But I have similar craic with friends from other backgrounds, including my much loved Catholic friends. Now I'm not rushing out to have that kind of banter with just anyone, cause you never do know. Could be a good way to get punched in the mouth still. And there are a lot of embittered people out there and in truth bigots on both sides. But I think tensions, whilst they inevitably rise around marching season and around things like flag protests, are on a generally downward slope.

I don't think I am not humble Dowlias. Just talkative. I want us to win with a burning desire. Had we won a trophy maybe I'd be less active on the forum actually. We still are less successful than Ospreys, Munster, Leinster. We have achieved nothing. But there's not been a season since 1999 when I didn't think about when we're gonna get our second European Cup. Even in the darkest days. Now we're getting back to the level to be competitive and realistically target that, I can smell it- practically taste it. I'm pretty wound up! Like a sailor on shore leave and brother... I've been out to sea a long time!

But don't worry about the threadjack, Jack. It's par for the course. The force of Irish conversation is like leaves on a windy day. No point sweeping them, just got to abide them.

The thing about us is we think quicker, we talk quicker and we make love quicker. And, you know... 2 out of 3 ain't bad

Depends which one your missing Notch

Wish I could dig out the "Uncle Andy" (Give My Head Peace) clip about the Flag Protest - brilliant

we make love quicker

I bet my house I could finish before any Irish man, and any woman where ever she came from.

At the last Ulster game I was on a pub bus full of Prods (I am fairly sure we were the only 2 Taigs, defo the only Leinster fans) when we came to the flag protesters, the whole rest of the bus got up and wanted to get out and batter them. (OK. I am exaggerating)

If you look like a Taig the ancestors must have "taken the Soup" :-)

In the early 80s my then GF was in college with a girl from Belfast who had red hair and had the surname Kelly. She used to tease her granny that her family must have "taken the soup" The granny was none too impressed.

LordDowlais wrote:we make love quicker

I bet my house I could finish before any Irish man, and any woman where ever she came from.

That's not necessarily a good thing Dowlais.

I saw one of those "Britain's roughest Pubs" type of programmes a while ago about Merthyr, so I won't be asking to fight you about it.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:At the last Ulster game I was on a pub bus full of Prods (I am fairly sure we were the only 2 Taigs, defo the only Leinster fans) when we came to the flag protesters, the whole rest of the bus got up and wanted to get out and batter them. (OK. I am exaggerating)

If you look like a Taig the ancestors must have "taken the Soup" :-)

In the early 80s my then GF was in college with a girl from Belfast who had red hair and had the surname Kelly. She used to tease her granny that her family must have "taken the soup" The granny was none too impressed.

Hehe, probably true though! Reminds me of all those Shinner types who have vaguely prod names so they try and change them up! Like Eddie McCann becomes Eadbhárd Mac Anna or something. Be more convincing if they spoke any other Irish at all, but you know how it goes

I don't "look like a Taig". Apparently I do look like a Prod AND I lack self-awareness. Nice to have friends to keep ye ground eh?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Also a lot of them post often, like yourself, Rodders & Notch for example.

P.S. The flag protests were/are pretty uniformly unpopular in my direct experience. Even amongst Unionists there are a lot of people who agree broadly with what they want but are annoyed with their behaviour. It really is an extremist fringe of unionist politics with only highly localised popular support.

But sure what would you expect when they were masterminded by a man who is so politically adept he's managed to lose his deposit in pretty much every election he's contested? Even managed to get temporarily disowned by his own movement as the protests wound down.

Any way, enough of that shoite. Hope ye had a good time at Ravenhill all the same. Always love seeing the Leinster boys up in force. Especially when we win!

And here... what about the Ospreys eh? Er, how come they never win in like... France and that? Bit weird that

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:we make love quicker

I bet my house I could finish before any Irish man, and any woman where ever she came from.

That's not necessarily a good thing Dowlais.

I saw one of those "Britain's roughest Pubs" type of programmes a while ago about Merthyr, so I won't be asking to fight you about it.

It might not be for the women, but for me it is, I can just roll over open a can of Stella and put the game on.