What to do with a problem like Phillips

First topic message reminder :

One of the biggest discussion points for the upcoming lions tour is the scrum half / flanker that is Phillips. Never in recent history has one player brought so many polar opinions, from a sure fire starter to not even on the plane in the minds of posters

But what does Phillips have that would make us want him in the lions team, or is he a failed experiment of large men in the wrong positons

We know Phillips brings aggression, toughness and a fairly good turn of pace. He can keep the flankers guessing and can create a good break. He is solid in defense and has improved his passing out of the rucks.

But is his flankiness enough to cover from his limitations at the core of scrumhalfiness?

Can he control a game, change the direction, bring into attack players and mix it up enough. Does he spend too much time looking to hug the opposition, is he too slow getting the ball out of the ruck and does he have too much gravel in his tracks making him go route one too often


For the lions, do we need an extra flanker? Does he bring enough to the party? Does he bring a different dish to put on the barbie that gives us options? Is he the cure, or the disease? Is he the one or the bum?

In short should he go, start or stay at home?

I will!

I would certainly be more concernd if Williams started. I reckon he is excatly what Wales need.

What we need is a platform so that the 9 can have some decent ball

The thing is Phillips is the sort of Scrum half you want when you don't have a platform. He tackles well, he is big and strong and can generate momentum.

To get the best out of the more skillful scrum halves you want a pack that won't get butchered every week. Ryan Jones and Tipuric should be able to help you out at the breakdown and I must say that Coombs chap has impressed me.

I disagree ruggerradghe, a sh is a good sh behind a good or bad pack. Look at gregan for example, towards the end of his career he was behind a wallabies pack which often went backwards more often than forwards, but still got the back line moving. Well any decent wallabies scrummie needs to be quite sharp as their pack often are on the back foot.

Saying that I think MP has his place in a squad. Maybe not as 1st choice starter but can come on maybe to hold a slender margin, or if suddenly the lion's pack starts falling apart. Prob not select him to score heapsa points but at least with MP you know pretty much what he can produce, and he usually produces that well

Toadfish wrote:These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

Pathetic and pointless to be honest.

Morgannwg wrote:

Toadfish wrote:These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

Pathetic and pointless to be honest.

Yeah, but enough about you. What do you think of the stats?

Morgannwg wrote:

Toadfish wrote:These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

Pathetic and pointless to be honest.

Couldn't agree more.

To be honest I do think a lot of Welsh fans are in a bit of denial about Phillips. I don't want to come across as someone who is trying to antagonize because Wales are my 2nd team and I really want them to play well and be successful.

I just think Phillips is an empty shirt and Wales have ditched far better players than him Hook, Peel & Byrne all spring to mind.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against

Genia loves playing against him. He's made him look like a lumbering oaf plenty of times. Doesn't bode well, does it?

Well I just count the one occassion. Keep digging though.

Heterz gon' hate.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Toadfish wrote:These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

Pathetic and pointless to be honest.

Yeah, but enough about you. What do you think of the stats?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To be honest I do think a lot of Welsh fans are in a bit of denial about Phillips. I don't want to come across as someone who is trying to antagonize because Wales are my 2nd team and I really want them to play well and be successful.

I just think Phillips is an empty shirt and Wales have ditched far better players than him Hook, Peel & Byrne all spring to mind.

Bluesman has been making it his own minority crusade in Phillips favour to elude the public to his benefits, many of BM's points ring true.

He can physically handle himself against any backrower infancy most forwards and therefor offers a challenge that other nines do not.

He has proved an asset behind a bad pack and a good one plus the experience he has compared to the other options is huge.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against

Genia loves playing against him. He's made him look like a lumbering oaf plenty of times. Doesn't bode well, does it?

Blair loved playing against him too

Made him look slow and poor

Riskysports wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against

Genia loves playing against him. He's made him look like a lumbering oaf plenty of times. Doesn't bode well, does it?

Blair loved playing against him too

Made him look slow and poor

I don't seem to remember that. But even if that's true, if we go by Toadfish's hypothesis then none of that matters because surely all of those games have been L's for Scotland.

One of the things that people keep bringing up about Philips is how well he did in the last lions

I actually thought he cost us the second match to be honest

Too often he would go for the the line himself at rucks when we have men over, just to be held up or turned over. There was one example 2 m out that was a sure fire score if he had passed, but he picked up and tried to bully his way over - he lost the ball

That is imo one of his biggest weaknesses - he chooses to crash it himself and ends up at the bottom of rucks far too often, meaning someone else has to do his job

Morgannwg wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against

Genia loves playing against him. He's made him look like a lumbering oaf plenty of times. Doesn't bode well, does it?

Blair loved playing against him too

Made him look slow and poor

I don't seem to remember that. But even if that's true, if we go by Toadfish's hypothesis then none of that matters because surely all of those games have been L's for Scotland.

It was in the league - with a W :-)

Riskysports wrote:One of the things that people keep bringing up about Philips is how well he did in the last lions

I actually thought he cost us the second match to be honest

Too often he would go for the the line himself at rucks when we have men over, just to be held up or turned over. There was one example 2 m out that was a sure fire score if he had passed, but he picked up and tried to bully his way over - he lost the ball

That is imo one of his biggest weaknesses - he chooses to crash it himself and ends up at the bottom of rucks far too often, meaning someone else has to do his job

I see what you mean.

The thing is, no matter your personal opinion on him, Gatland seems to like his physical backrow-with-hands scrum half (Phillips and Knoyle seem to be liked by Gats). So at a guess Phillips or Murray will start, but I would assume that somewhere in the squad a place will be found for someone who will be able to step into the scrum half slot as required. If you look at Wales, Ryan Jones (and now Coombs) tend to be at the base of the rucks when Phillips is on the deck.

Morgannwg wrote:

Toadfish wrote:These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

Pathetic and pointless to be honest.

Funny that does rather nicely describe your response.

Toadfish wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Toadfish wrote:These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

Pathetic and pointless to be honest.

Funny that does rather nicely describe your response.

You and Cyril the serial complainer must be twins .

So how does your arguement hold up? Change the context, say Phillips versus the other opposition on that list in all games in the past two years. The stats change. So again how does this hold up? Alternatively, look at OzT's reply.

Morgannwg wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Toadfish wrote:These stats obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt as rugby is a team game and there is only so much influence an individual can have but looking at the respective contenders records against Australia is interesting:

Player Starts Subs Wins
Phillips 8 1 0
Laidlaw 1 0 1
Youngs 2 2 2
Murray 0 1 1

As I say doesn't necessarily say much but for every argument that experience favors Phillips could be argued against with experience of winning being just as (if not more) valuable.

Pathetic and pointless to be honest.

Funny that does rather nicely describe your response.

You and Cyril the serial complainer must be twins .

So how does your arguement hold up? Change the context, say Phillips versus the other opposition on that list in all games in the past two years. The stats change. So again how does this hold up? Alternatively, look at OzT's reply.

I didn't make any arguments or form a hypothesis as you seemed to have claimed. Can you read? You seem to be taking this very personally.

People talk about experience all the time and one element of experience can be winning against a particular side. In this respect Phillips doesn't have any, the others do. As I said though originally this has to be taken with a pinch of salt as there are a tonne of other factors to consider.

Well then I don't understand your reasoning for posting said stats, and assumed it was another dig at Mikey Phil.

All I can say about Phillips is that he needs to watch Peter Stringer play.

As a Bath fan I've thought we had a very good Scrum Half in Michael Claassens, a good solid performer that was until I've saw Stringer play at the Rec. Even in his twilight years he looks class and has helped make us look half decent since his arrival.

Phillips was a shoe-in on the last Lions tour. His form has see-sawed since then, but on his day he is a class international act. That to my mind says it and he should definitely go on tour.

The fact that his form has mirrored the success of the Welsh side is no coincidence. Prior to WC2011, several Welsh posters were saying he shouldn't even be on the plane which frankly was ridiculous. In the event he was one of the experienced players who started performing at their best, and the result was very good for the team. Now, he's one of several experienced players who are not on top form, and the national side has gone accordingly.

All-in-all, he's too good and too experienced to be left behind. Definitely not a test starter as things stand, but form is a fickle thing...

Phillips behind a dominant pack is a great asset to have

Morgannwg wrote:Well then I don't understand your reasoning for posting said stats, and assumed it was another dig at Mikey Phil.

Because they were both interesting and amusing whilst being rather meaningless as Toadfish said

RubyGuby wrote:Phillips behind a dominant pack is a great asset to have

Nah - thats when you need a wee quick guy.
Philips you need on the bench for if your pack is getting cuffed and the wee nippy guy getting trampled

TJ wrote:Stay at home. a poor scrum half. he looks good at what he does but people forget what he doesn't do - which is get the ball into attackers hands quickly.

Youngs, Laidlaw, Murray, etc etc - we don't need him

Murray was dreadful against England. A poor mans Mike why would you take him in preference if that style of SH is needed in the squad.

[quote="VictorU3"]All I can say about Phillips is that he needs to watch Peter Stringer play.

You do read some funny things on here, even if they are often not meant to be

B91212 wrote:Straight shoot out with Murray for me to be a physical 9 option for the tour. Going for him he has experience, against him maybe he isn't great for team unity based on some of his previous. Also wasn't his fitness in question during the AI's by Gatland?

All the Irish lads speak highly of him (including ROG). POC said he thought he was going to be a right pain in the neck going on the Lions, but said he found him to be great crack.

Who will go will depend on who the outhalfs are - Murray will go if Sexton goes etc. Same idea as when Gatland played 13 Ospreys to win the grand slam. Country partnerships will be retained.

dragonbreath wrote:

TJ wrote:Stay at home. a poor scrum half. he looks good at what he does but people forget what he doesn't do - which is get the ball into attackers hands quickly.

Youngs, Laidlaw, Murray, etc etc - we don't need him

Murray was dreadful against England. A poor mans Mike why would you take him in preference if that style of SH is needed in the squad.

He didn't look like the poor man's Mike the week before when playing Wales.

Sin é wrote:

B91212 wrote:Straight shoot out with Murray for me to be a physical 9 option for the tour. Going for him he has experience, against him maybe he isn't great for team unity based on some of his previous. Also wasn't his fitness in question during the AI's by Gatland?

All the Irish lads speak highly of him (including ROG). POC said he thought he was going to be a right pain in the neck going on the Lions, but said he found him to be great crack.

Who will go will depend on who the outhalfs are - Murray will go if Sexton goes etc. Same idea as when Gatland played 13 Ospreys to win the grand slam. Country partnerships will be retained.

But who would have thought BOD & Roberts would have worked so well? Or Toonie & Dawson in 97 or WJ McBride and Broon in 77? Or the Front row of Sole, Moore and Young in 89?

The differant countries coming together is where the strength comes from. To retain partnerships solely for familiarity would be a mistake.

[quote="dragonbreath"]

VictorU3 wrote:All I can say about Phillips is that he needs to watch Peter Stringer play.

You do read some funny things on here, even if they are often not meant to be

Not especially, the thing you want first and foremost from yer scrummy is a decent pass and Stringer more often than not fires a decent pass quickly. Mikey Phillips (the biggest badass in McDonalds) pass has never been that good, Ben Youngs and Danny Care have been too slow to ship the ball from the base of the ruck in the past but Stringer keeps things moving quickly. I was never his biggest fan as a player but it can't be denied how effective he has been internationally and for his province, I also think there's less of the 'look at me' factor which could be attributed to MP, BY and DC.

Versatility is very important in this series.

We need options in all positions. Forwards who can play a tight game, forwards who can play a loose game, backs who are defensive rocks, backs who are attacking lynchpins.

Phillips is different from other 9s. He's big, he's strong and can act like a backrow forward with more gas.
He has his downsides. His kicking game could be better, his passing game is below par as is his game management.

Against SA in 09 we needed big lumps all over the park. Thats why they went with Monye, Roberts, Phillips in the backs. Against AUS the test team will need something different. They need to be street smart rugby players and they need a scrum half who can exploit weaknesses and give his backs a great platform.

I think he'll tour and I think he should. I would have him on the test bench but not the first XV.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Phillips - the man they all like to hate, the recent scorer of winning trys v England and Ireland both in the 6 nations and RWC - The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against - The Lions scrum half on the last tour who ripped through defences. I'm afraid Mike will be on the plane to Aus and lets see how he goes for the rest of the 6 Nations. Iron Mike v little Ben should be interesting in March and may the best man win.

He'll also have to deal with Laidlaw in the Scotland match... Currently I fancy Laidlaw to win that exchange too.

Mike will have to have the worst game of his life for that to happen.

[quote="Sugarlump"]

dragonbreath wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:All I can say about Phillips is that he needs to watch Peter Stringer play.

You do read some funny things on here, even if they are often not meant to be

Not especially, the thing you want first and foremost from yer scrummy is a decent pass and Stringer more often than not fires a decent pass quickly. Mikey Phillips (the biggest badass in McDonalds) pass has never been that good, Ben Youngs and Danny Care have been too slow to ship the ball from the base of the ruck in the past but Stringer keeps things moving quickly. I was never his biggest fan as a player but it can't be denied how effective he has been internationally and for his province, I also think there's less of the 'look at me' factor which could be attributed to MP, BY and DC.

Stringer is a decent player, but no more. I often have this discussion with an Irish mate of mine who sanctifies ROG and Stringer. The way I see it is that both benefited from a lack of competition over the years and rather than being the reason for Ireland's success are actually the reason that Ireland underachieved during that period. Sure they won some triple crowns and a GS but they would have been the dominant side for the past decade or more had they had some world class half backs. PS is barely international standard let alone in a position to school Mike Phillips

dragonbreath wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Phillips - the man they all like to hate, the recent scorer of winning trys v England and Ireland both in the 6 nations and RWC - The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against - The Lions scrum half on the last tour who ripped through defences. I'm afraid Mike will be on the plane to Aus and lets see how he goes for the rest of the 6 Nations. Iron Mike v little Ben should be interesting in March and may the best man win.

He'll also have to deal with Laidlaw in the Scotland match... Currently I fancy Laidlaw to win that exchange too.

Mike will have to have the worst game of his life for that to happen.

True. I'm reading this and do not understand the Scottish dislike for Mike Phillips. Much like I don't understand their dislike for Lee Byrne.

Maybe we should have a thread for most hated 15? With Phillips, Hartley, Ashton, Byrne, Healy - plenty of names to go around.

I guess I (and the scots) are probably respectful of Byrne's ability as a kick boxer, its the rugby thats more of an issue.

lostinwales wrote:Maybe we should have a thread for most hated 15? With Phillips, Hartley, Ashton, Byrne, Healy - plenty of names to go around.

I guess I (and the scots) are probably respectful of Byrne's ability as a kick boxer, its the rugby thats more of an issue.

OK here goes

We hate Hartley because he’s a thug
We hate Ashton because he looks like Hartley
We hate Phillips because he truly is the most useless SH in test rugby
We hate Byrne because he’s too dim
We hate Healy because of his imitation of Stampy the elephant in the Simpsons


Hey, this is fun.

dragonbreath wrote:
Stringer is a decent player, but no more. I often have this discussion with an Irish mate of mine who sanctifies ROG and Stringer. The way I see it is that both benefited from a lack of competition over the years and rather than being the reason for Ireland's success are actually the reason that Ireland underachieved during that period. Sure they won some triple crowns and a GS but they would have been the dominant side for the past decade or more had they had some world class half backs. PS is barely international standard let alone in a position to school Mike Phillips

On the hope and a prayer that none of my fellow Irish posters are reading this thread I'll second this.

Although I will say that ROG was an exceptional tactical kicker and distributor who was complimented by an excellent passer in Stringer, very solid Munster based Irish pack and a quicksilver backline for Ireland containing a prime O'Driscoll for many years. Square pegs in square holes but fairly limited all round players all things considered.

If a player is loved by his own people and hated by his opponents, he must have done something right in his career.

How many people hate the Italian rugby team?

Once they start getting good see that hatred double up.

fa0019 wrote:If a player is loved by his own people and hated by his opponents, he must have done something right in his career.

How many people hate the Italian rugby team?

Once they start getting good see that hatred double up.

+1 with Phillips and Hartley encapsulating that statement - Both are very very good players but opposing fans are reluctant to admit this

rodders

Stringer was wee and never a ball carrier but what he did was unleash your backline and gave players like BOD ample time to work his magic.

We had the same with Brian Redpath.... he too was a wee general who commanded great respect and controlled our pack like a jockey.

fa0019 wrote:rodders

Stringer was wee and never a ball carrier but what he did was unleash your backline and gave players like BOD ample time to work his magic.

We had the same with Brian Redpath.... he too was a wee general who commanded great respect and controlled our pack like a jockey.

Ah no he played his role no doubt, underrated cover defender too but for me he was never that good a scrum half. Redpath was a more complete player for sure. Scotland produced quite a good SHs recently - Redpath, Armstrong, Nicol, Custiter, Blair etc-.

Reddan was underrated, as was Boss and Marshall is now.... compared to these guys Stringer was and still is massively overrated by Irish fans and media imo.

dragonbreath wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Phillips - the man they all like to hate, the recent scorer of winning trys v England and Ireland both in the 6 nations and RWC - The powerhouse that no other 9 likes to play against - The Lions scrum half on the last tour who ripped through defences. I'm afraid Mike will be on the plane to Aus and lets see how he goes for the rest of the 6 Nations. Iron Mike v little Ben should be interesting in March and may the best man win.

He'll also have to deal with Laidlaw in the Scotland match... Currently I fancy Laidlaw to win that exchange too.

Mike will have to have the worst game of his life for that to happen.

You think? - Laidlaw is a fine scrum half and if he plays to his best in this 6N he could well be on the plane. He is a smart rugby player. I'd back him to make Phillips look slow and stupid. We will see.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:OK here goes

We hate Hartley because he’s a thug
We hate Ashton because he looks like Hartley
We hate Phillips because he truly is the most useless SH in test rugby
We hate Byrne because he’s too dim
We hate Healy because of his imitation of Stampy the elephant in the Simpsons


Hey, this is fun.

Dan Parks for his sideburns and his rabbit in the headlights look
Ronan O'Gara for having a face you would never get tired of slapping

TJ wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:OK here goes

We hate Hartley because he’s a thug
We hate Ashton because he looks like Hartley
We hate Phillips because he truly is the most useless SH in test rugby
We hate Byrne because he’s too dim
We hate Healy because of his imitation of Stampy the elephant in the Simpsons


Hey, this is fun.

Dan Parks for his sideburns and his rabbit in the headlights look
Ronan O'Gara for having a face you would never get tired of slapping

Henson. For being an orange to$$er
Campese for living up to just about every Australian stereotype available.

Wouldn't take Phillips, for me Youngs and Murray are the 2 choices to make the 23, I would take Care as 3rd choice for the midweek side, the only reason to take Phillips would be to take some more experience in the touring party, but he would still only feature in the midweek side for me.

He is Benny's pick (Phill Bennett) because he is a frightening physical presence. There is no doubt that the area around the breakdown is his. Gatland loves him. I was never a fan until I saw him lift Wales to beat Ireland last year. The players were less frightened of the Irish than they were of their scrum half!

Apart from one game against Wales and the odd game for Munster, Murray has been ranged from poor - average.

Sin é wrote:He didn't look like the poor man's Mike the week before when playing Wales.

To be fair, in that first half against Wales, the entire Ireland team looked like the 1973 Barbarians reincarnated. That was one of the great halves of Rugby at the top level in quite a while.