Ireland Vs Scotland - Injurymageddan vs Resurgence

First topic message reminder :

UPDATED - Ireland 29 Man Squad Announced:

Hooker- Rory Best, Sean Cronin,
Props- David Kilcoyne, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Declan Fitzpatrick,

Second Row- Donnacha Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Ian Henderson, Lewis Stevenson, Devin Toner
Backrow - Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Chris Henry, James Coughlan,

Scrumhalf - Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan,
Flyhalf- Ronan O'Gara, Paddy Jackson,

Centre- Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Earls, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave,
Wings- Craig Gilroy, Fergus McFadden, Luke Fitzgerald,
FullBack- Rob Kearney, Robin Henshaw

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So with Darcy now out, where will Deccie be forced to go? I think we all realize he will go with ROG and use the Darcy injury as even more excuse to stay with a “wise” old head at outhalf. Below I put in what I believe Deccie will put down as the starting line-up and below that my selection. Just to clarify, either team is capable of beating Scotland as we all know that we can show up and randomly, erraticly beat nearly anyone, but I believe my team has the benefit of win or lose being a team that starts to prove out whether the young players we all have such hopes for can do a job for us.

Deccie (Total Starting Caps, 663, 363 Backs, 300 Forwards)
15 Kearney (43)
14 McFadden (16)
13 Earls (36)
12 O’Driscoll (122)
11 Gilroy (3)
10 ROG (127)
9 Murray (16)
8 Heaslip (54)
7 SOB (24)
6 POM (11)
5 Ryan (25)
4 DOC (92)
3 Ross (26)
2 Best (64)
1 Kilcoyne (4)

16 Cronin (24), 17 Court (29), 18 Fitzpatrick (4), 19 Henderson (2), 20 Henry (6), 21 Reddan (48), 22 Jackson (0), 23 Fitz (49)
Bench Caps: 162

Me (Total Starting Caps, 394, 207 Backs, 187 Forwards)
15 Kearney (43)
14 Earls (36)
13 O’Driscoll (122)
12 Marshall (0)
11 Gilroy (3)
10 Madigan (0)
9 Murray (16)
8 POM (11)
7 Henry (6)
6 SOB (24)
5 Ryan (25)
4 Henderson (2)
3 Ross (26)
2 Best (64)
1 Court (29)


16 Cronin (24), 17 Kilcoyne (4), 18 Fitzpatrick (4), 19 DOC (92), 20 Heaslip (54), 21 Reddan (48), 22 Jackson (0), 23 McFadden (16)
Bench Caps: 242

Standulstermen wrote:O'Brien gave away at least two braindead, and I emphasise braindead penalties. I think there were more. He carried but mostly was handled very very well and was shovelled sideways. He made the break that led to the try but I don't recall much more carrying forwards.

You can argue thats lack of support but he went on his own and that's his call.

I only noticed one really stupid one, which was bad enough, but I didn't see anything more. He literally made ground every single time he carried the ball, but the support was woeful. We have no mobility in the pack really, I guess with Ryan and O'Callaghan at second row we are very slow compared to other young options other teams have. O'Mahony was also anonymous after a great start to the tournament.

Can I just add that I have given up entirely on Earls and his abilities as an international rugby player. He can break the line wonderfully, but he seems to forget it is a team game and totally ignores his support. Amateur.

heaslip has not been a potent ball carrier for at least 3 years now

His discipline is also terrible. Will be lucky to get on the plane at this stage.

The Lions will lose to Australia, you heard it here first.

I thought Heaslip was good today, maybe not his decision making but other than that he was comfortably our best performing backrower.

Beeb saying O'Gara is done on the red button.

Clive, BOD was right there in support . No excuse for earls not to throw the pass. Earls was outperformed by Gilroy IMO and his career has taken a major shunt because he wanted to be a 13 and it's evident he was never suited to it. I shudder to think how good a wing he could be by now had he not persevered with some romantic notion of being BODs successor

Our front five were, collectively, poor today.

I think a lot of the scrum problems was due to lack of grunt in the second row.
For the second Scottish penalty the gap between them was as wide as the Red Sea.
Also when DOC starts a game these days our scrum is often in trouble - I dont think that is a coincidence.

ROG simple put - retire man for the sake of your own self esteem.
That was simply embarressing.

No doubt the 8 points from the edge of the pitch by Jackson will get the blame - will we see any mention of the 10 points Earls blew.

Jackson had a decent game and set up 3 try scoring runs which the other backs blew.
One bad pass aside Marshall was excellent - as I suspected we have found D'Arcy's replacement

SOB and Heaslip did well, Ireland won the contact and the breakdown.

Ireland lost the scrum and more significantly, the lineout and kicking game

wales606 wrote:.

Ireland lost the scrum and more significantly, the lineout and kicking game

The lineout was ok in the second half - it was the 3 try scoring opportunities in the first half that cost us the game

unless earls learns how to pass the ball, execute a 2 v 1 and actually make something of his line breaks he should not be in the team period. wing or centre it does not matter

He has pace and can break the line but his basics and rugby are not of international standard.

International rugby is too tight and serious to carry a player who bungles overlaps and try scoring opportunities ad nauseum regardless of what number is on their back.

the whole thing is rotten. i have no idea what team kidney will pick for France and to be honest if i was in his shoes i would have no clue either. So many injuries and players out of form

geoff998rugby wrote:

wales606 wrote:.

Ireland lost the scrum and more significantly, the lineout and kicking game

The lineout was ok in the second half - it was the 3 try scoring opportunities in the first half that cost us the game

Earls is the kid who didn't need to pass playing youth rugby because he was faster than everyone else, and hasn't learned that he can't do that anymore.

Hook saying Marshall had a poor game

Congrats scotch...

Well held on. Good defensive effort..

However no disrespect but Ireland were all over ya.... Irish are gonna be hurting over that one

Scotland for 2nd

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Scotland for 2nd

We could still win

Finally the Irish media are starting to call for an end to Deccie's reign. It's amazing they've stayed loyal to him for so long. It's been like watching a slow motion train crash for the last 3 years. Somebody put him out of his misery.

What happened to the clinical Ireland try scorers of a year or so back? I've never seen a 6N game where a team effectively blew a nailed on win like that one.

Poor second half discipline, and a woeful front row are partly responsible, and some real gutsy defence from Scotland.

G

Will be a good game next time out Wales v Scotland both on 2 a piece.

Looking forward to that.

our front row are not woeful we just have no cover. bad day at the office today to be honest it happens. best,healy,ross is very far from a woeful front row. scotland has a massive back 5 supporting their front row.

i maintain our back play has been very poor all through kidneys reign. We scored a few trys last year fair enough but Scotland and Italy were terrible and we were not much cop either but racked up a few at hom.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Finally the Irish media are starting to call for an end to Deccie's reign. It's amazing they've stayed loyal to him for so long. It's been like watching a slow motion train crash for the last 3 years. Somebody put him out of his misery.

And it is all off the back of our most positive selection for years. I said it earlier and I will say it again. They past selections and the fact that Marshall and Jackson haven't even a cap off the bench at this stage are to blame, not the selection for today's game.

He was a also let down by his more experienced players today.

majesticimperialman wrote:Will be a good game next time out Wales v Scotland both on 2 a piece.

Looking forward to that.

I agree that the damage has been done with Kidney's refusal to blood youngsters other than when he has needed to over the whole of his Irish tenure.

Surely this must be the end for O'Gara? He isnt even Munster's best 10 any more. The next game against france will be massive. France need a win to avoid the spoon and Saint Andre getting his cards and Deccie needs to win to have any chance of a contract renewal.

I'm very pleased Scotland won that game but they were absolutely atrocious. Scotland started to show some nice play when they actually tried to go through the phases rather than Laidlaw kicking everything. It was a poor performance not so much in heart or execution - defence needs a lot of work - but in ambition and tactics.

However, a win is a win and Scotland have now had their best Six Nations since 2006 with two rounds to go. Coupled with sorting out the various hoodoos that have been hanging over us, I think Scott Johnson has done enough to get the job full time. I think Wales will be far more clinical than Ireland were today and now they have a bit of belief they will still be favourites.

In terms of Scotland's starting line-up, I really think we need to bring in an openside and get Kelly back to the blindside with Harley going to the bench in place of a fairly out-of-form Denton. Duncan Weir showed promise today. His kicking and defence is better than Jackson's, although neither player has shown consistent form this season, but I think Johnson is probably right to try to keep as much consistency in selection as possible and mix things up in the summer.

On the plus side

If Wales beat Scotland and England they will now be guaranteed to finish 2nd. Cheers Ireland/Scotland

If you watch the game closely ford sold the jerseys for a couple of the Irish breaks and the try.
He's still out of form.
I'm still baffled by refereeing in the 6 N this year. Absolutely no consistency.
Why don't they sit everyone down at the start of the tournament like they do in football and explain what's expected both from players and refs.
It would make being a supporter a whole lot less stressful.

Just a word about the front rows - Ireland's starting 3 are all very good scrummagers. We all know it and whilst Ireland would rather have had Healy, Court is hardly a slouch and if you'd read Scottish fans' postings prior to the game, it was an area of concern.

Geoff Cross put himself about a lot, made a lot of noise and did well (he famously rises to the occasion in internationals) but whilst I will have to look at the game again, I would wager that at least three quarters of the scrum penalties that Ireland incurred happened because of Ryan Grant on the loosehead side.

He is Scotland's quiet hero - in the past year he has packed down against the Australian, Samoan, Fijian, Northampton and Castres front rows and he has stood up to absolutely everything. If he was just more fashionable, he would be touted in Lions conversations far more. He's only 17 stones, but he's made of kevlar.

I also think our scum looked a lot weaker when Hall was at hooker...

JmD wrote:Earls is the kid who didn't need to pass playing youth rugby because he was faster than everyone else, and hasn't learned that he can't do that anymore.

Considering he was playing outside half, I'd say he passed the ball quite often.

Heuer27 wrote:If you watch the game closely ford sold the jerseys for a couple of the Irish breaks and the try.
He's still out of form.
I'm still baffled by refereeing in the 6 N this year. Absolutely no consistency.
Why don't they sit everyone down at the start of the tournament like they do in football and explain what's expected both from players and refs.
It would make being a supporter a whole lot less stressful.

Unfortunately I could not agree more.

That'll learn you for "injurymageddan"

dublin_dave wrote:our front row are not woeful we just have no cover. bad day at the office today to be honest it happens. best,healy,ross is very far from a woeful front row. scotland has a massive back 5 supporting their front row.

i maintain our back play has been very poor all through kidneys reign. We scored a few trys last year fair enough but Scotland and Italy were terrible and we were not much cop either but racked up a few at hom.

Sorry dd, I was travelling back from where I watched the game. Woeful was a tad harsh, but I thought Ryan Grant and Geoff Cross did really well for Scotland. Better than expected imo.

For sure the usual Irish front row are handy. The lack of depth may have something to do with the NIQ front rowers at the Provinces though.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:O'Brien gave away at least two braindead, and I emphasise braindead penalties. I think there were more. He carried but mostly was handled very very well and was shovelled sideways. He made the break that led to the try but I don't recall much more carrying forwards.

You can argue thats lack of support but he went on his own and that's his call.

I only noticed one really stupid one, which was bad enough, but I didn't see anything more. He literally made ground every single time he carried the ball, but the support was woeful.

Until the break that led to the try I was thinking that for all the carries by O'Brien (and there were a lot) he had barely made yard of ground- the Scots smashed him every time. Then again how much ground can you hope to make when you run straight into three Scottish forwards (which is what he seemed to do most of the time)?

15 tackled made and none missed. Take a bow Kelly Brown!

I think Hamilton and Gray deserve credit for the scrum and Scotland scrummed as an 8. I felt our flankers were meerkating far too much and not supporting the props.

THe stats (damned lies etc) back up my feeling during the game that Heaslip was much more effective carrying than SoB

How did Ireland lose that game, Kidney should be fired for not seeing ROG should have been retired two years ago. DOC is another who is past it the Scottish second rows did well in the line out's forcing Ireland to throw short and not straight. Overall Scotland were poor, kicking the ball away, missed tackles and tackling players in the air, they were lucky not to get more yellow cards. The best aspect of the Scottish play was the challenging in the line out, I wish Wales put in half the effort on the opposition line outs.

The better team lost that game not helped by ROG brain fart just like he had during the Lions second test against SA.

Agree stand I don't think our props got enough support today. We seemed to like to try and engage those brick wall Scotish forwards which didn't go well for us. I think on days like this we have to just take it on the chin that it wasn't our day.

Scotland bossed the scrum as well.

Morgannwg wrote:

JmD wrote:Earls is the kid who didn't need to pass playing youth rugby because he was faster than everyone else, and hasn't learned that he can't do that anymore.

Considering he was playing outside half, I'd say he passed the ball quite often.

Of course he did, that's where the best kid on the team is put. Why though, is he passed the ball often, has this ability abandoned him?

Earls should not be near an Irish setup again. I've defended him often that performance today was indefensible. As i watched the performance today it put me in mind of the England ireland game that ended O'Sullivan's tenure an uninterested Rabble. Thanks for everything Declan and ROG enjoy your retirement you can point to the grand slam and the Heinken Cups with Munster.

Kidney still taking a lot of stick.

he didn't make Earls butcher that try scoring chance or all the others.

he also didn't make Heaslip kick for then corner time and time again instead of taking the points.

he also didn't make ROG make such an insane move to hand Scotland the win.

He shouldn't have brought ROG on IMO, however if he had closed the game out like he had done so many times before I reckon you lot would be singing a different tune.

Kidney might pick the team but it was execution of his players that let Ireland down. Aside from ROG on the bench what (without turning this question into a 16 page epic) would Irish posters done different?

Congrats to Scotland on the win I would never be happy with a loss, and I'm not now, but knowing this loss helps ensure better days ahead takes the edge of it a bit.
Marshall did really well for his first Cap. Really pleased for Gilroy getting his try, and Jackson had a good day out bar kicking from the tee, and one slightly overcooked kicking from hand. PJ to start next match with Madigan on the bench.
I don't know if Earls is just ball greedy or he's afraid to pass, but not good enough at this level.
Rog...his game today speaks for itself. It was expected, which is a very sad reflection on Kidney's decision making.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Kidney still taking a lot of stick.

he didn't make Earls butcher that try scoring chance or all the others.

he also didn't make Heaslip kick for then corner time and time again instead of taking the points.

he also didn't make ROG make such an insane move to hand Scotland the win.

He shouldn't have brought ROG on IMO, however if he had closed the game out like he had done so many times before I reckon you lot would be singing a different tune.

Kidney might pick the team but it was execution of his players that let Ireland down. Aside from ROG on the bench what (without turning this question into a 16 page epic) would Irish posters done different?

Surely he must take some of the responsibility for the fact that players seem to play about 1/10 as well for Ireland as for their Club?

Radge

I think the issue with kidney (at least my issue) is that he has constantly used excuses not to blood young players. Pre-RWC, the RWC was the excuse. Going down to tour NZ the fact we had never beaten them was the excuse, in the AIs the ranking points was the excuse and the 6N has previously been too important to blood new players.

That is all well and good but then our best 10 goes down injured and we have a backup who is about 18months past his sell-by-date and we are throwing in a young ten for his first start alongside a young 12 for his first start. The reality is that both Jackson and Marshall should have more caps and should have (in the formers case) been backup for the first two games. Injury has been the most progressive selector in Irish rugby for the past ten years.

I saw a comment on another forum which leaves me wondering .....

We are two games away from Luke Marshall being our senior centre partner. That is scary. Keith wood said today that we are too conservative about bringing through young talent. I find that somewhat hypocritical from the man who had constantly backed the selection of D'arcy, DoC and ROG. We have used an assortment of excuses not to use young guys and are now in a situation where we could be without our two experienced tens and our two centres in november.

I will repeat again, kidney deserves to go for his lack of foresight in selection over the past 2 years or so, not the selection today

^^^ What he said

Just watched this and have to say Ireland are so impotent that even if they scorted in a brothel they wouldnt be able to do anything useful with the opportunity.

Worst attempt at winning game youve dominated ever.

Standulstermen wrote:Radge

I think the issue with kidney (at least my issue) is that he has constantly used excuses not to blood young players. Pre-RWC, the RWC was the excuse. Going down to tour NZ the fact we had never beaten them was the excuse, in the AIs the ranking points was the excuse and the 6N has previously been too important to blood new players.

That is all well and good but then our best 10 goes down injured and we have a backup who is about 18months past his sell-by-date and we are throwing in a young ten for his first start alongside a young 12 for his first start. The reality is that both Jackson and Marshall should have more caps and should have (in the formers case) been backup for the first two games. Injury has been the most progressive selector in Irish rugby for the past ten years.

I saw a comment on another forum which leaves me wondering .....

We are two games away from Luke Marshall being our senior centre partner. That is scary. Keith wood said today that we are too conservative about bringing through young talent. I find that somewhat hypocritical from the man who had constantly backed the selection of D'arcy, DoC and ROG. We have used an assortment of excuses not to use young guys and are now in a situation where we could be without our two experienced tens and our two centres in november.

I will repeat again, kidney deserves to go for his lack of foresight in selection over the past 2 years or so, not the selection today

Stand Up For Stand.

I have been begging for change since 2009 (well since the 90's really). All change in this tenure has been brought about through injury and not by premeditated planning. Kidney has let his country down, not just in the 4 years he has been in charge, but for years to come. It has seriously hampered his successor leading up to the RWC. That, to me, is unforgiveable. I blame the IRFU for this. They are his boss. We are his boss. We pay for the feicer in blood, sweat, frustration, money and continuing tears.

Its time. I dont care if we trounce France and malafuster Italy. He MUST go.

BTW, I watched the game again in great detail. Paddy Jackson done ok. He created and made most of our line breaks and defended really well. The kicking will come. He deserves backing v France and Italy. I recind my earlier rash comments, born from frustration. But this time, with Madigan as backup. That would at least be some logical and beneficial recompense.

Try to Believe.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Just watched this and have to say Ireland are so impotent that even if they scorted in a brothel they wouldnt be able to do anything useful with the opportunity.

Worst attempt at winning game youve dominated ever.

I appreciate you are the the go to man re brothels, but what?

Norfolklass wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Just watched this and have to say Ireland are so impotent that even if they scorted in a brothel they wouldnt be able to do anything useful with the opportunity.

Worst attempt at winning game youve dominated ever.

I appreciate you are the the go to man re brothels, but what?

Post of the Year 2013

"scorted"

Is that a combination of scoring and snorting in a brothel

I scorted man

Agree with a lot of that Gibson although I think there is still time to get the team right for 2015. The coaching ticket needs to be right though. We should be identifying who will be there, who won't and start planning accordingly.

To my mind there are some key players who we must build the team around

Healy
Best
Henderson
O'Brien
Marshall (Luke)
Zebo
And our fly half be it sexton, madigan, keatley, Jackson or JJ.

Add to that Henshaw, Farrell, kearney, Bowe, Murray, marmion etc and the squad is potentially there. We can't be shy about getting the young lads the shot though

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Aside from ROG on the bench what (without turning this question into a 16 page epic) would Irish posters done different?

Actually ROG on the bench was one of the few decisions I agreed with. Everyone knows ROG is shot except the Irish media who are largely made up of his old mates and it was just impossible to leave him out altogether.

Kidney shouldn't have selected Jackson as a goal kicker, when he has been slowly recovering from an injured ankle and not been place-kicking for Ulster. The rugby call would have been to start Madigan, the political call would have been to start ROG, but by starting Jackson he both alienated the press and compromised the chance of winning the game by having an out of form kicker. That just heaped pressure onto Jackson on top of everything else.

Appointing Heaslip as Captain was idiotic. He doesn't look half the player when Ferris isn't in the team, and his decision making is suspect as demonstrated today. Not sure he sees the game objectively as a leader as after the game Jamie said the team was in a good place - really?

The team are consistently told to go out and express themselves, or as Mick Doyle would have said "give it a lash". This "game plan" has worked on occasion but against teams who are playing structured rugby it generally isn't successful. A good litmus test of a coach is comparing the results of the first half to the second half (Ireland first): Scotland 3-0, 5-12; England 0-6,6-6; Wales 23-3,7-19; Argentina 24-9,22-15; South Africa 12-3, 0-13; New Zealand 0-29,0-31; New Zealand 10-9, 9-13. So only once in the last seven games has Ireland done better in the second half than the first (and they still lost that one). Coaches who know what is going on can see what their opponents are doing and change tack at half time - Kidney has proven incapable of this.

It's possible to talk about the backs coaching (or lack of), his misplaced faith in under performing players (Earls, Heaslip, DOC, Wallace), his capricious use of the bench (ROG), his ignorance of in-form players (Madigan, Trimble), his undermining players confidence (Cave, Kilcoyne), his messing about with the provinces by asking players to play in certain positions, I could go on but then it would stretch to 16 pages.

Kidney has to go.

There were problems all over the place today, some in places where Ireland have previously been secure. What has happened to Kearney's decision-making? He remains dependable under the high ball, but the spark of three years ago is missing. Marshall shone today, but he has to be docked house points, even so - a player of his class should be sent round the paddock five time for butchering such an inviting 2 on 1 with that kind of pass. No excuses.

Earls hasn't even got first Test nerves to attempt to explain away that rabbit in the headlights squandering of a certain try. Again, it's the sort of opportunity that I don't think that he would have wasted a year or two back.

The line-out was an utter mystery. Why so shambolic? It's all very well Keith Wood talking about how tall the Scottish locks are, but England managed some sort of parity with the electricity pylons, even fielding relative dwarves. Best had an afternoon to forget in more ways than one. Healy is indispensable in the front row, as we saw today. Cross and Grant are decent props, but they shouldn't be shunting Ireland around Edinburgh - a really depressing sight.

Despite all these manifest flaws, Ireland ought to have won the game by a street, but a real bone-headedness appears to have set in. Where are the cool heads trying to calm the younger players? Making most of the idiotic mistakes themselves, that's where. Discipline was inexcusably absent, especially when it was clear that Scotland weren't going to score in any way other than penalties.

Perhaps others are right, and the long view that an undeserved (and it was an absurd anomaly of a result, however heroically Scotland defended) loss will do more good than papering over the cracks with four wins this year is the right one. Perhaps, in the words of one of Irelands's chief bogeymen, we can finally say to the current Irish rugby "brains" trust: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately ... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

It'll be twelve months too late, but better that than limp on for another year of the same.