Which France will turn up?

What is it with France?

They got beat by Italy, who then lost heavily to Scotland. They then lost, in Paris, to a pretty ordinary Welsh side. Not only that, they played crap in both matches.

So, we're all absolutely sure that England will smash France, aren't we?

Like hell we are. We just don't know which France is going to turn up. No other country can play so bad, and so well, so often in consecutive matches. Only France could lose to Tonga in the pool stages of the RWC, and then nearly beat NZ in the final. Only France could smash Australia, and then a few months later lose to Italy and Wales.

All teams have blips - Clive Woodward's world cup winning team lost one six nations match per year for about 4 years - but this happens to France so regularly, with every generation of players. So:

1. Why does France do this? Is it in the French character? Or the French league structure (no rest time, no Rabo style friendlies). Can any French readers comment?
2. Which France will turn up this Saturday?

in response:
1) Currently for France its a selection issue. That and Michelak looks like he's watching time team before each match

2) If Fofana is moved back to the centres and a few changes are made, I can see an angry France, maybe not beating England but giving them a scare. I don't think they could get any worse right now to be honest.

1) agree.

2) agree, but i see an angry france blowing england away...

1. It's quite complex. Probably a mix of all what you mentionned (lack of preparation etc ) plus a small pinch of lazyness (or lack of and commitment)
2. A very motivated and agressive one (wishfull thinking)

As a team, England is way better than France at the moment. They look like a very well drilled machine while France is still figuring how to go forward.
As a league, the PRU/RFU relationship is 100 years ahead of french mismanagement and that will be even more obvious in the coming years.

If France pick Michalak at 10 they won't win. But I do expect a complete reversal of form which the French are apt to do after such shocking performances so far. It will be the next in the series of biggest tests for England and if they remain composed they should win...however if players like Dusatoir and Picamoles have big games it will be very tight

The thing about the french in the past is that they were brilliant are free flowing rugby... but this current class just are not. Their playmakers are quite one-dimensional.

Trinh-Duc, Bauxis, Michelak... they are just not the type of players to play that sort of rugby.

They are a little behind the times in terms of forwards play too. These days we have guys like Jenkins, Jones, Healy, Cole, Castrogiovanni etc in the NH who are dynamite on the floor not just the scrum... the french props just don't get that involved. Mas is a great scrummager but absent elsewhere.

These days you can't just leave it to the loose forwards to compete for the ball. I can't see them beating England with Farrell pinging 5 out of 6 every game at home.
Their setup and game plan are miles away from playing the type of rugby which would trouble England.

Which France will turn up?

I'm hoping it's the one just over the water at Dover, and turn right a bit. Because that France is pretty poor and we should give them a bit of a slap at HQ.

If it's the France just next to Never Never Land however, then we're all in trouble, cuz everyone says they're great.

Whocares,

What is the pressure like in France on St Andre and the squad afer the last two games?

The good france, at home against england every seems to raise the bar. Still the coaches usually undermine their performance with mental team selections and the old number 10 conundrum is still rearing its ugly head for the wine swilling surrender monkeys. Will be close come on you rosbif's !!!!

maestegmafia wrote:Whocares,

What is the pressure like in France on St Andre and the squad afer the last two games?

On a scale from 1 to 10, around 7. Not enough angryness yet, looks like 2011 all over again with a miserable tryless defeat at twickenham.

whocares wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Whocares,

What is the pressure like in France on St Andre and the squad afer the last two games?

On a scale from 1 to 10, around 7. Not enough angryness yet, looks like 2011 all over again with a miserable tryless defeat at twickenham.

There was condemnation from the crowd last weekend... The players will be sore from that and want to step it up. There does, as you said earlier, seem to be a very apathetic attitude.

gowershowerpower wrote:1) agree.

2) agree, but i (would like, but unlikely to) see an angry france blowing england away...

fixed it for you

Even a good France will struggle, the way England are playing.

Versus Ireland 3-0 up inside two minutes,in poor weather conditions Ireland then lost 2 key players injured.It was a solid competent win no more don`t over hype it England.
France anywhere are dangerous and with two losses they will be itching to put things right.
A loss for England,wins for Scotland and Wales and the 6Ns is wide open again.

If St. Andre picks Parra and Trinh Duc and shifts Fofana to centre, then I expect a more fluid performance from France.

As has been mentioned, France will need more than just their back row to compete at the breakdown. It is one area where England have been strong recently. I think this is where England have an advantage.

England have been vulnerable in counter attack ball, and especially on the blindside of rucks and mauls. I hope to see this area tightened up by England. Both Scotland and Ireland broke through England's defence on the blindside.

England also need to improve their first up tackling, but their great line speed in defence should force some errors from France, as they did to Ireland.

This could well be a game where both teams are frightened to lose, and there will be plenty of territorial kicking. I hope not.

I think we have all been disappointed to not be able to witness any French joie de vivre for a good few years now...

I can hardly remember the last time i saw France play the way that the are so famous for. The way their coach himself used to play.

I would love to see that exciting and beautiful rugby come back, whether this weekend or another, but I really miss it.

An exciting French team was always a highlight of the tournament.

The French are a professional team, just like any other squad of players they'll want to right the wrongs of the last two games. Just like Wales beating them in Paris on the back of 8 losses, or England beating NZ after losing to OZ and SA.

In honesty the past results mean very little and every side in this tournament can beat the other if it all comes together.

France could pull it off or England could put a cricket score on them. Likewise Scotland could win the championship or Ireland could lose all of their games now.

Sport throws up twists, that's why we love it. To give the French some kind of mystical powers of gamesmanship is just a little clichéd really, there's no magical hocus pocus about it. Just focus and a huge amount of tiny factors coming together over 80 mins for one team or another.

yappysnap wrote:The French are a professional team, just like any other squad of players they'll want to right the wrongs of the last two games. Just like Wales beating them in Paris on the back of 8 losses, or England beating NZ after losing to OZ and SA.

In honesty the past results mean very little and every side in this tournament can beat the other if it all comes together.

France could pull it off or England could put a cricket score on them. Likewise Scotland could win the championship or Ireland could lose all of their games now.

Sport throws up twists, that's why we love it. To give the French some kind of mystical powers of gamesmanship is just a little clichéd really, there's no magical hocus pocus about it. Just focus and a huge amount of tiny factors coming together over 80 mins for one team or another.

France have a huge and incredibly talented playing base to select from, there is no magic there is skill met with endeavour. When it works for them it is a pleasure to watch.

Lets hope we see them return to former glories soon. At the moment it is like watching the Brazilian football team trying to be Germany.

I am expecting a totaly different France to turn up this week than what as turned up all ready. France dont like too lose 2 games on the trot, like they have this year.

I am expecting changes in Cleric on the wing, Fofana in the centre. Trinduc in at 1o and Michelac/Para at 9...It will also depend on how the pack goes as well. I expect a tight game with an England win. Atleast i hope it will be.

A bigger issue for France in the long term is how over reliant many teams are on non French Qualified playes. Toulon and Racing being the most obvious examples. Apparently only four of the T14 teams have a starting 10 who is French.

Their props are nowhere near as frightening as they used to be. While Forestier has been good for Castres, he has not performed at international level. There seems to be more focus from the players on their club performance than in the national jersey.

France desperately need to introduce a foreign quota system. Alternatively do what the RFU are doing and reward teams for fielding home qualified players. That means the FFR and LNR coming to some sort of agreement/compromise on where they are at the moment.

However, I suspect the egos of the wealthy club owners, who seem to put club success above that of the national team, would kill off such an initiative.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:A bigger issue for France in the long term is how over reliant many teams are on non French Qualified playes. Toulon and Racing being the most obvious examples. Apparently only four of the T14 teams have a starting 10 who is French.

Their props are nowhere near as frightening as they used to be. While Forestier has been good for Castres, he has not performed at international level. There seems to be more focus from the players on their club performance than in the national jersey.

France desperately need to introduce a foreign quota system. Alternatively do what the RFU are doing and reward teams for fielding home qualified players. That means the FFR and LNR coming to some sort of agreement/compromise on where they are at the moment.

However, I suspect the egos of the wealthy club owners, who seem to put club success above that of the national team, would kill off such an initiative.

Yes St Andre has been gunning for that. He wants a French version of the English system of Elite and A team etc...!

Maes, they need something along those lines. The IRFU and WRU have quota restrictions, and I feel it has been a good thing for both countries, given there are only four pro teams in each country.

1. As mentioned I think it's a lack of preparation time and selection issues. Also the French overconfidence plays a part. Sometimes they can appear lazy as if letting the opposition play confident that they'll have their chance and score more. This is often the case and they win but equally as often the game slips away from them.

2. The same France that always turn up. When France lose - maybe because of some of the reasons above - its said they didn't turn up. Haven't the opposition got anything to say about it? If they're not allowed to play and are losing the territory game they get frustrated and make mistakes.

England are at home and are rightly favorites for the win. If France get the selections right and are allowed to play a bit they're in with a good shout.

In 2011 England and Wales lost to France just after they had been beaten by Tonga and thrashed by NZ in pool.

There are parallels here. Sure England are at home and are better now, but Wales were stronger in 2011 yet only beat them this time after 8 losses on the trot.

Makes no sense but the confusing mix of ingredints are there for a French win and no matter how much England, its team talks, its fans might disagree, England can't help but be complacent for this match...understandably so...

If the side that thrashed Oz 3 months ago fronts...it'll be game on...

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Maes, they need something along those lines. The IRFU and WRU have quota restrictions, and I feel it has been a good thing for both countries, given there are only four pro teams in each country.

English and French Club owners don't like it, they think that because there are so many teams in the league enough talent is coming through, though as you will notice both teams have been employing more and more overseas talent in their national team. One reflects the other.

I think we should all adopt the Irish system where you cant have overseas foreign players all playing in the same position. Where leagues have more teams like in England and France the numbers could vary a bit, but it would mean a larger pool.

It wont happen though.

Like soccer before the international game is rapidly becoming secondary to the club game in most countries in Europe.

fa0019 wrote:The thing about the french in the past is that they were brilliant are free flowing rugby... but this current class just are not. Their playmakers are quite one-dimensional.

Trinh-Duc, Bauxis, Michelak... they are just not the type of players to play that sort of rugby.

Of those three, I'd say only Beauxis is one-dimensional. Trinh-Duc is quite capable of making breaks and Michalak is quite a footballer too. He didn't play well in the first two matches but he hasn't suddenly become a bad player. (Having said that, I'd play Trinh-Duc at outside half.)

Fofana (in his proper position), Clerc, Huget are all great footballers and quite capable of playing 'free flowing rugby' given the chance. Judging by Saint-Andre's comments, they'll be encouraged to try things on Saturday, which could be brilliant or, if they make mistakes, a disaster.

maestegmafia wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Maes, they need something along those lines. The IRFU and WRU have quota restrictions, and I feel it has been a good thing for both countries, given there are only four pro teams in each country.

English and French Club owners don't like it, they think that because there are so many teams in the league enough talent is coming through, though as you will notice both teams have been employing more and more overseas talent in their national team. One reflects the other.

I think we should all adopt the Irish system where you cant have overseas foreign players all playing in the same position. Where leagues have more teams like in England and France the numbers could vary a bit, but it would mean a larger pool.

It wont happen though.

Like soccer before the international game is rapidly becoming secondary to the club game in most countries in Europe.

It might improve things for Wales but I'd say we're pretty happy with the system in England. Think we are averaging 70% of match day squads being England qualified. Using some basic math’s that gives us a pool of over 190 players playing week in week out which is not too shabby.

As far as England are concerned I can't see any evidence of the international game becoming secondary to the club game. We've probably just been through our worst 10 years performance wise and support and interest has only grown over that time at both club and international level.

The good thing about this England team is that they don't seem to be concerned about how the opposition play and are confident in their own gameplan, versatile and flexible enough to adapt to conditions.

England sides in the recent past would sometimes be set up to nullify the opposition or stick rigidly to a plan regardless of whether it was working properly. There's a better level of intelligence about them these days.

Sure England will be under pressure, the favourites always are. No pressure means you're not doing very well. That's not to say France can't turn up and upset the applecart but I like to think that England have it within them to beat whatever France bring.

Confidence not arrogance

hahaha, cracking cyril...

'versatile and flexible'.....

versatile by sticking it up more than 3 people's jumpers and flexible by kicking 3 points from various distances and angles...

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:The good thing about this England team is that they don't seem to be concerned about how the opposition play and are confident in their own gameplan, versatile and flexible enough to adapt to conditions.

Thought you were describing France exactly for a minute there...

Taylorman wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:The good thing about this England team is that they don't seem to be concerned about how the opposition play and are confident in their own gameplan, versatile and flexible enough to adapt to conditions.

Thought you were describing France exactly for a minute there...

Eh?

fa0019 wrote:The thing about the french in the past is that they were brilliant are free flowing rugby... but this current class just are not. Their playmakers are quite one-dimensional.

Trinh-Duc, Bauxis, Michelak... they are just not the type of players to play that sort of rugby.

They are a little behind the times in terms of forwards play too. These days we have guys like Jenkins, Jones, Healy, Cole, Castrogiovanni etc in the NH who are dynamite on the floor not just the scrum... the french props just don't get that involved. Mas is a great scrummager but absent elsewhere.

These days you can't just leave it to the loose forwards to compete for the ball. I can't see them beating England with Farrell pinging 5 out of 6 every game at home.
Their setup and game plan are miles away from playing the type of rugby which would trouble England.

You have singled out the 10s as being 1 dimensional but can you name a flair French 10 in living memory with the exceptional of TC who did not really make the shirt his own, being percieved as a bit flaky. France's ability to hurt teams has always come further out. The real problem has come from a lack of creativity in the centre, however a combination of Basteraud (a real handfull despite looking like he owns a chip shop) and Fofana is an exciting looking partnership. Lets hope PSA gets his act together and his selections right.

French playmakers used to be the scrumhalves rather than the flyhalves in the past . A bit like youngs for england now, he's the one dictating the game. Farrel influence is quite limited in that respect and that partnership works quite well.
Castagneide is probably our last classy 10. Lamaison was not a great flyhalf on his own but his partnership with galthie worked so well, this was probably amongst the best 9-10 pairing I can remember of. As AWOP used to say... Combinator is what matters!

gowershowerpower wrote:hahaha, cracking cyril...

'versatile and flexible'.....

versatile by sticking it up more than 3 people's jumpers and flexible by kicking 3 points from various distances and angles...

Certainly 'up the jumper' when required. Horses for courses (there's a horsemeat joke in there somewhere).

Your Wales side have been trying to do 'up the jumper' for the last nine months. They're not very good at it though.

11/4 odds or 3.75 decimal that France will win this weekend... Could be worth putting a bet on that. I expect a huge resurgence from France this weekend and think they will actually win comfortably. You heard it here first!

gowershowerpower wrote:hahaha, cracking cyril...

'versatile and flexible'.....

versatile by sticking it up more than 3 people's jumpers and flexible by kicking 3 points from various distances and angles...

You're getting confused with the Welsh team again.

This 6Ns is the 'hard way round' for England this year with only one competitive side at HQ.

France I fully predict will be a tough challenge and will front up. But there again, rarely does a Six Nations side go walkabout against the mighty Albion.

More likely is that the English don't turn up.

That's my pre-scripted excuse.

I think that this has more of the hallmarks of RWC 2003 Semi Final than RWC 2011 QF or even RWC 2007 SF.

France will undoubtedly raise their game - their pride is wounded and their opponent is England, after all - but this England side seems to have a maturity that belies their relative inexperience. England made Ireland lose their composure, and France are much easier to rattle.

It's another big test, but barring France scoring early from an interception or counterattack and finding themselves with a big lead, I think England's discipline and fitness will win out.

Poorfour wrote:I think that this has more of the hallmarks of RWC 2003 Semi Final than RWC 2011 QF or even RWC 2007 SF.

France will undoubtedly raise their game - their pride is wounded and their opponent is England, after all - but this England side seems to have a maturity that belies their relative inexperience. England made Ireland lose their composure, and France are much easier to rattle.

It's another big test, but barring France scoring early from an interception or counterattack and finding themselves with a big lead, I think England's discipline and fitness will win out.

Let's hope so. Against Ireland we gave away 14 penalties to 11 and got Haskell yellow carded and could've had more with Cole and Farrell (altho Ire were lucky not to lose Healy on the day).

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I think that this has more of the hallmarks of RWC 2003 Semi Final than RWC 2011 QF or even RWC 2007 SF.

France will undoubtedly raise their game - their pride is wounded and their opponent is England, after all - but this England side seems to have a maturity that belies their relative inexperience. England made Ireland lose their composure, and France are much easier to rattle.

It's another big test, but barring France scoring early from an interception or counterattack and finding themselves with a big lead, I think England's discipline and fitness will win out.

Let's hope so. Against Ireland we gave away 14 penalties to 11 and got Haskell yellow carded and could've had more with Cole and Farrell (altho Ire were lucky not to lose Healy on the day).

Healy was lucky, Haskell (I think) a little unlucky, and the refereeing of the breakdown was a bit random. But how many of the penalties England gave away were kickable?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I think that this has more of the hallmarks of RWC 2003 Semi Final than RWC 2011 QF or even RWC 2007 SF.

France will undoubtedly raise their game - their pride is wounded and their opponent is England, after all - but this England side seems to have a maturity that belies their relative inexperience. England made Ireland lose their composure, and France are much easier to rattle.

It's another big test, but barring France scoring early from an interception or counterattack and finding themselves with a big lead, I think England's discipline and fitness will win out.

Let's hope so. Against Ireland we gave away 14 penalties to 11 and got Haskell yellow carded and could've had more with Cole and Farrell (altho Ire were lucky not to lose Healy on the day).

Its also a question of where the penalties happen. We may have given away more but the majority were in the Ireland half.- Ireland didnt get any kicks at goal in the first half.

Poorfour wrote:
It's another big test, but barring France scoring early from an interception or counterattack and finding themselves with a big lead, I think England's discipline and fitness will win out.

True...barring all that, that is...for me theres no logical reason for France to win this other than these two things...
1 Theyre France
2 England...albeit completely justifiably...think they'll win.

There are few rugby subjects that you can't have an intelligent debate about, except maybe Henson and Cirpriani, but generally we can all see the pros and cons of an argument and barring the usual anit sentiments we all share a common grasp of rugby issues.

Seems like the only thing you can really agree with about France is that no debate or logic can account for their mercurial character and you just don't know whether they will implode gainst England, or blow them away in a cloud of Gallic glory

A win against England will be the ideal way for the French to get things back on track and this really worries me. I expect another tight match but of course won't be suprised if France are either brilliant or awful! So sorry, can't really answer the OP...

100%beefy wrote:There are few rugby subjects that you can't have an intelligent debate about, except maybe Henson and Cirpriani, but generally we can all see the pros and cons of an argument and barring the usual anit sentiments we all share a common grasp of rugby issues.

Seems like the only thing you can really agree with about France is that no debate or logic can account for their mercurial character and you just don't know whether they will implode gainst England, or blow them away in a cloud of Gallic glory

Sometimes, they will do both in the same match. You just have to hope they get the glory out of the way before the implosion

stub wrote:A win against England will be the ideal way for the French to get things back on track and this really worries me. I expect another tight match but of course won't be suprised if France are either brilliant or awful! So sorry, can't really answer the OP...

It would also seriously liven up this comp mid way through... Everyone with at least one loss and one win, from the impartials' perspective, Allez Les Bleus...!!!!

100%beefy wrote:There are few rugby subjects that you can't have an intelligent debate about, except maybe Henson and Cirpriani, but generally we can all see the pros and cons of an argument and barring the usual anit sentiments we all share a common grasp of rugby issues.

Seems like the only thing you can really agree with about France is that no debate or logic can account for their mercurial character and you just don't know whether they will implode gainst England, or blow them away in a cloud of Gallic glory

100% ...beefy.

Its actually the same comments we kept hearing before the Wcup 2011 final, 2007 quarter final and they were largely correct then. No real reason they should win either but nearly won both. Their results coming into this match mirror those before ours quite similarly- all over the place...and this is no horsemeat either...

which france will turn up..

The team from across the english channel.. Is there another france..

They may play abit better than they have. however cant see them better us how ever they play;

btw its more about which england turn up.. odds on we will play well.. we are a consitant team..

france dont ever give us this unplayable game that other teams say they give them..

. Yeah yeah going on about this again. Its my fav topic but it seems like "which france will turn up" is a fav topic with everyone else

mystiroakey wrote:which france will turn up..

The team from across the english channel.. Is there another france..

They may play abit better than they have. however cant see them better us how ever they play;

Yes Mysti...there is another France...the other one...and youre saying the same things we did and we had more reason to than you...

Not saying theyll win...but if anyone can turn the tables...its them.