Scotland - where on earth are we?

First topic message reminder :

The big debate for the last 10 years for most Scottish fans have been around a young promising team growing into a good squad and whether we have reach or even turned a corner

Every year we have a stand out result, Ireland away, South Africa, Australia home and away, and unbeaten summer tour, winning the series in Argentina and we feel there is light at the end of the tunnel. We have players arriving who could be the one that makes us click (Visser, Hogg, Gray, Jackson, Weir, de Luca)

But with each step forward there is often a quick jig backwards (Tonga, 6 nations whitewash, Parks returns, inability to catch a ball), so where is Scotland really in the great scheme of things

Are we still looking at a false dawn or have we actually reached a corner (or at least see it in the distance).

What would be the criteria of meeting this criteria and what would allow you to enjoy watching Scotland without having a haggis running in circles in your stomach

And who in your mind is really the cure, and not part of the disease

Ryan Wilson showed last night just how good a player he is with an awesome display v Ulster. He was out on his feet at the end with physical effort. Barclay also back to his scavenging best too.

Yeah Barclay looked good in the rucks, staying on his feet really well. Swinson is paying well too, 3 try's in two games now is it? Good there is so much competition at the moment, beginning of a golden generation...

I hope Barclay has lost a bit of weight and got a wee bit faster, felt robinson had made him put on a bit of weight so he could cover 8!

I thought Barclay and Wilson were excellent last night. Glasgow have two great players and leaders in the back row never mind Harley, Fusaro and Strauss!

As for Scotland I expect Barclay to at least be in the 23 for Wales to counter Tipuric and Warburton.

I also thought Dunbar was good last night not so much going forward but his defence and work at the breakdown was very impressive.

OP 'Where are we ?' Johnson answers:

"Scotland interim head coach Scott Johnson is relishing a push for the Six Nations title after his side clinched their second win by beating Ireland. "

Thank goodness he has said this. Now England can relax and talk about the title without worrying about Telfer !

Scotland seems to have stumbled into a game plan this 6N – we have suddenly become a set-piece focussed, defensively strong, counter attacking team. i.e. we absorb as much of the opposition attacks as we can then hit them on the break.

In Grant, Ford, Hamilton, Harley and Brown we have a pack set up with defence in mind, and our vaunted back 3 can run tries in from everywhere if we hit them on the break

Polar opposite of what Robinson tried to do, but is this the best way forward considering the resources available? I’m starting to think maybe so.

Robinson tried to make us a fast paced, off-loading team but we don’t have the skill set to do that. We also lack the speed and thought in defence to cope when we are going 100 miles an hour in everything we do.

It isn’t the most exciting to watch, but I think it might suit us going on for the future – dominate set piece, hit tackles and rucks very hard, absorb everything the opposition can throw at us and hit them hard when we get the ball, and ensure we get points at every opportunity in their 22.

Re: Scotland - where on earth are we?

Well, obvious answer, somewhere up North, not sure exactly where.

As to rugby, Scotland has been coming along. Last year there were some good performances but Scotland never got quite the result needed. This year, some good results are coming in and Scotland is a deserved (joint) second in the table. Perhaps the Ireland result was a bit of luck - Ireland are a good side though.

I'd give Scotland a better than evens chance of beating Wales (they're not as good as Ireland - just check the club Heineken cup performances). Scotland could beat the French team who played Italy and Wales, but has no chance away against the French team that played England.

That would put Scotland a deserved second in the table - best result since when?

But remember, you're never as good as they say you are (1) and you're never as bad as they say you are (2).

Notes
1. unless you're NZ
2. unless you're Wales

No such thing as luck in rugby, unless a bounce of the ball has been our undoing.

Sure we were under a lot of pressure in the 1st half, but Ireland did the same to Wales in the 6N opener. The difference being we held them out and were within striking distance at half time. Scot Johnson no doubt told the boys at halftime, as soon as you get the ball and build the pressure Ireland will start to cough up penalties.

Sure enough they did.

Had Ireland taken their points when on offer in the 1st half I reckon they would have won the game. Hence luck played no part in the result. Ireland made mistakes due to the pressure we created in defence.

I was really proud of our performance at the Weekend.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland seems to have stumbled into a game plan this 6N – we have suddenly become a set-piece focussed, defensively strong, counter attacking team. i.e. we absorb as much of the opposition attacks as we can then hit them on the break.

In Grant, Ford, Hamilton, Harley and Brown we have a pack set up with defence in mind, and our vaunted back 3 can run tries in from everywhere if we hit them on the break

Polar opposite of what Robinson tried to do, but is this the best way forward considering the resources available? I’m starting to think maybe so.

Robinson tried to make us a fast paced, off-loading team but we don’t have the skill set to do that. We also lack the speed and thought in defence to cope when we are going 100 miles an hour in everything we do.

It isn’t the most exciting to watch, but I think it might suit us going on for the future – dominate set piece, hit tackles and rucks very hard, absorb everything the opposition can throw at us and hit them hard when we get the ball, and ensure we get points at every opportunity in their 22.

You may be right about this game plan going forward but we're certainly going to have to improve the amount of possession we have to keep winning games on a regular basis. I actually think Scotland have been more exciting to watch this 6N so far.

Anyone got the possession and territory stats for the 2nd half? The fulltime stats were very one sided, but how much of that was from the 1st half dominance? We had a lot more ball and territory in the 2nd half.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Anyone got the possession and territory stats for the 2nd half? The fulltime stats were very one sided, but how much of that was from the 1st half dominance? We had a lot more ball and territory in the 2nd half.

Am I the only one who was reasonably comfortable with the 1st half?

Ireland had a lot of ball and a lot of possesion, but it almost seemed we backed ourselves to hold out. Even when Grant was off I wasn't sweating as per the norm when Scotland are under siege on our own try line.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Anyone got the possession and territory stats for the 2nd half? The fulltime stats were very one sided, but how much of that was from the 1st half dominance? We had a lot more ball and territory in the 2nd half.

Am I the only one who was reasonably comfortable with the 1st half?

Ireland had a lot of ball and a lot of possesion, but it almost seemed we backed ourselves to hold out. Even when Grant was off I wasn't sweating as per the norm when Scotland are under siege on our own try line.

I wasn't comfortable with the first up tackling that led to 3 major lines breaks, and clear try scoring opportunities...

In answer to the OP:

Joint 2nd in the table

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:No such thing as luck in rugby, unless a bounce of the ball has been our undoing.

Sure we were under a lot of pressure in the 1st half, but Ireland did the same to Wales in the 6N opener. The difference being we held them out and were within striking distance at half time. Scot Johnson no doubt told the boys at halftime, as soon as you get the ball and build the pressure Ireland will start to cough up penalties.

Sure enough they did.

Had Ireland taken their points when on offer in the 1st half I reckon they would have won the game. Hence luck played no part in the result. Ireland made mistakes due to the pressure we created in defence.

I was really proud of our performance at the Weekend.

First Highlight: The difference was Wales played a less shorn of usual suspects Ireland team - Scotland played something much less potent (on paper)
Second Highlight: Maybe Scot could have given that advice at the beginning of the First Half and Scotland would have won by a landslide?
Third Highlight: If by that comment you suggest there sometimes is a thing called 'Luck'??? - then I'd suggest not being able to convert pressure into points on a scoreboard because you're using a fresh faced International pup at 10...I'd strongly suggest there's a little lack of luck in that deal.

Ireland were, as is usual for them now, shyte on the day. Scotland should have won...and eventually did; coming in late in the attempt but getting there in the end. That's really all that can be said about it. Scotland won a game they always should have won based on how Ireland are currently playing. And I said so before the game, lest anyone think I'm being wise after the event.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland seems to have stumbled into a game plan this 6N – we have suddenly become a set-piece focussed, defensively strong, counter attacking team. i.e. we absorb as much of the opposition attacks as we can then hit them on the break.

If this is our new tactic then I would worry about Scotland going forward.

Digging in like that for such lengths of time is a risky risky tactic. Any other team would have put us to the sword yesterday. We were lucky that Ireland were as toothless in attack as we were but we had an established goal kicker on the field.

We used to be be known for our dynamic pack but if we are going to be going towards having a massive pack focus on set peice then teams will soon learn to run round us and not up the middle.

Someone mentioned it either on this post, or another last week, Ireland may look to run it up the 9/10 channel as it was a perceived weakness. Rhubard, although totally ineffective in attack, was reasonably solid in defense yesterday. As was Laidlaw. We also had Harley and Brown floating around that channel mowing down the Irish runners. Had Ireland identifed that smacking into this brick wall was ineffective and aimed at running lines out wide, the result would have been totally different yesterday. Look at thier break when thier 12 cut a great line and ghosted passed Beattie out wide. If Wales use Jamie Roberts to bosh it up the middle all day then Scotland will have a chance against Wales. If Wales decide to have Davies cutting lines with Cuthbert or North on support then its bye bye Scotland.

For me, our biggest problem is we kick the ball away far too often. Not only do we kick it, but our chase is so poor that often the other team run it back to withing 10 metres of where we kicked it. Pointless. If Brian Moore was here, he'd be giving everyone who kicked away possesion a serious telling off!

If we kick the ball to Wales all day long, then I fear thier backs will have a field day!

Tigertattie - I agree. We looked incapable of turning the momentum of Ireland in the first half, and everytime we got the ball, Laidlaw just kicked it away. His box kicking wasn't bad, it's just that tactically it didn't give us a chance to use the ball.

We were also winning penalties from scrums, which was obviously a good thing, but it also meant we weren't using that field position to give our backs some oxygen.

Ultimately we won the game because Ireland didn't take points on offer, and butchered three good try scoring opportunities. Those were Irish mistakes and they were unforced. However, we showed some excellent resolve, particularly our scramble defence once Ireland broke the line, which is something new (usually a line break against us equates to 7 points).

Still, two wins in a row and bring on Wales.

I wonder if it was a Scott Johnson tactic of if Laidlaw just decieded to boot the ball away at every oppertunity

I think Laidlaw lost faith when the very first back move we had ended in a choke tackle and turnover.

The execution of the box kicks was largely fine, and Maitland chased well in particular, but it meant we never had any phases of possession, and the fact we didn't make a single line break in the entire game tells you something.

When Laidlaw did finally get the chance to tap and go to get some pace into the game, Wayne Barnes called him back!

Everytime laidlaw got the ball he was deep in our half - thus the kick. However it didn't work at all for us - hardly got possession back of any of them

Not always, quite a few kicks were outside our 22.

It's always high risk passing down the backline in your own half, but at some stage you just have to take the plunge and hope that big lads like Scott, Lamont and Visser can look after themselves.

Luckily Ireland simply refused to score points against us and we got away with it, but I do hope that Scott Johnson has a word or two this week. We need to back ourselves out wide, that's where our best players are.

I think the pleasing thing from a Scotland point of view was the defence. The line held whereas in games like against England or last autumn, there were too many gaps. Scotland used to pride itself on its pack and its defence and that was very much on evidence in the weekend. The backline finesse wasn't there but the defence won them the game.

Now comes the Wales game and that could be a more open game than against Ireland. This has tended to suit Wales more in the past but I have a feeling if the game opens up, Scotland will be the ones who benefit. Visser and Cuthbert both have question marks over their defence rightly or wrongly but if the ball gets out to the backs, this theory will surely be tested. Could be a cracker.

If, and it is a big if, we beat Wales in 2 weeks time. I wonder how they would feel about doing us a favour like in 99 and beating the Englanders! I'm sure the Welsh would happily oblige

But I am getting ahead of myself.

I just want us to have some possesion. Stop kicking the bleedin ball away

On the plus side - we're in the world top 10 again!

http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think the pleasing thing from a Scotland point of view was the defence. The line held whereas in games like against England or last autumn, there were too many gaps. Scotland used to pride itself on its pack and its defence and that was very much on evidence in the weekend.

I was going to say something similar but actually when you consider the number of missed tackles (albeit that we made about 1000000 tackles) and line breaks, I'm not sure our defensive line was particularly good. Where we've greatly improved is the scramble defence, particularly Sean Maitland who got back time and time again to ensure things were as difficult for Ireland as possible. Harley's workrate was also good.

The scrum, lineout and scramble defence were the positives for me, along with Laidlaw's goal kicking. That was about it though, OTHER THAN THE RESULT!!

With so much possession there were always going to be missed two tackles. But I take your point. To me I liken it to Ireland's defensive effort against Wales this year. They looked shaky in the middle of the field in much of that second half but they scrambled and they held their own line and avoided defeat. To me that's what Scotland did yesterday and they should be applauded for that and not just because there wasn't much else to applaud. Sometimes it doesn't matter how you win so long as you do win. Back to back victories are not common for Scotland so now they must approach the Wales game with a positive intent and get their attacking back up to the first two games because Wales are best attacked that way at the moment. They'll relish a game of attrition. I think Scotland has to be more adventurous and take the game at pace. Put the work in up front but don't hold back and go for the conservative kicking game. Wales have genuine attacking threats whereas I think Ireland were missing too many yesterday.

I think the SRU should be looking more internally, setting up a pyramid based system, working from schools to clubs to region to national team, with maybe smaller sections in regions.
They should set more internal targets such as 90% of schools playing rugby, one way of achieving that would be setting up small cup competitions with prize money, currently schools will do anything for money because they have little especially if the matches are against local schools - pupils will be more fired up and it will give headteachers something to boast about if they win. Also ask primary schools to run touch rugby teams from a young age and rather than having two terms of rugby a year and then finished why not set up sevens festivals with the winner going onto another round and eventually giving a national winner.
Club teams could be set up into local leagues of 6-10 teams which play each other home and away, a side could be comprised of the best players and coaches from this league to play against other such teams in the region in another league, with the best players then asked to play for the region which at the age of 17 could be turned into an academy which would feed into pro teams. For now the North and West academies could feed into Glasgow and the East and South into Edinburgh.
Over time this should attract supporters and players to rugby and increase the standard of our pro teams and premiership teams. Over time the amount of pro teams could be increased from two to four.
I would set up a borders team because not only is it the only part of Scotland in which Rugby is the biggest sport it also has provided some our best players, Hogg, Laidlaw, Brown, Cross and Ford all started on Sunday. Although a crucial component would be allowing the borderers to run the region themselves perhaps allowing the heads of the border league team to run it between them. Another idea could be to build a new stadium with 10,000-20,000 seats which could be the home of the pro-team and the Scottish sevens as well as some of Scotland's games and some of the representative sides too, games against the likes of the Dragons, Connacht and Zebre could be moved around.
A Scottish rugby centre of excellence could be set up with the best facilities such a cyrotherapy chambers, this could be the training base for the u18s, u20s, A side and full team.

Obviously the above is going to be very expensive and I think I may have thought too deeply about it but I was bored.

Any ideas Why Scotland havent put Caledonia and Borders in the British and Irish Cup?

Surely having the better Scottish Championship players in 2 squads would be better than having club teams like Melrose, Gala, Dundee, all finishing bottom of their groups while Stirling finished third?

If indeed the Europen Cup does implode then it is possible they may need to expand the Rabo and those 2 teams could well make the cut.

Shifty wrote:Any ideas Why Scotland havent put Caledonia and Borders in the British and Irish Cup?

Surely having the better Scottish Championship players in 2 squads would be better than having club teams like Melrose, Gala, Dundee, all finishing bottom of their groups while Stirling finished third?

If indeed the Europen Cup does implode then it is possible they may need to expand the Rabo and those 2 teams could well make the cut.

they tried a representative team in the first year of the competition and it was an unmitigated disaster. When you also consider that Ayr have made it to the knockouts before, Gala are in their first season in the comp and will likely be more competitive next season, and Melrose are uncharacteristically poor this season, its not too much of a concern atm.

Almost back to the playing level/standard of ability as that great 1984 Grand Slam winning team. But they aren't quite there yet. Probably another season or 2 and Scotland could seriously challenge for a Six Nations Title, maybe even a Grand Slam!

So far I do not think we have progressed at all

2 wins - yes

but leaking breaks, not able to hold onto the ball and relying on mistakes is not the way to go forward

Wales is a massive game. We win this, I will eat humble pie and admit I was wrong

If, and i fear, Wales take us a part - then I think we will have actually gone backwards from last year (as I fear the wins are papering over the cracks that we are playing poorer than 2011)

wales will only tear you apart if we score early...scottish defence holds out and you take your pens it will be tight as wales are still 1 trick pony and if bash doesn't work we go lateral or kick poss away

Batter and beat the Welsh. Damage their confidence and get a "W" in that column and you'll be in a terrific place.

Do not worry about developing your game or about trying to produce scintillating running rugby. Work around your strengths and put daylight between yourselves and the welsh.

Counter attack through your dangerous back 3 (this is new for you and you must be pleased at this progress) when it is on.

Focus on yourselves, beat Wales and when you have done this you'll be in a good place.

As Stuart Lancaster said recently it is a balancing act between getting Wins now and building for the future but winning now gives the team "space to grow".

Never a truer word was spoken.

Come on Scotland !!!

I might be a sassenach but i come in peace.

I didnt mean to kill the conversation!

Just win win win that''s the key.

Your enthusiasm for the Scots is most welcome and extremely complimentary to the current Grand Slam champions

Where are we? Apparently here:

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 74 caps, 9 tries, 45 points
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 8 caps, 5 tries, 25 points
10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 conversion, 2 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) vice-captain, 16 caps, 2 tries, 16 conversions and 30 penalties, 132 points

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) vice-captain, 8 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 66 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) 51 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester) 44 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain, 55 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 19 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
Substitutes
16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 17 caps
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 19 caps, 1 try, 5points
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 50 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) uncapped
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 18 caps, 2 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals, 16 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 34 caps, 3 tries, 15 points.

No Barclay is a mistake although Wilson is the form loose forward in Scotland at the moment. Picking Weir is huge.

Still don't understand the constant selection of Number 23...

Happy with that team. Weir gets a start. Can he produce the goods?

Did not see Weir getting the nod over Jackson... good call though probably.

Do we think he'll take over kicking duties from Greig?

Wrong backrow - I think you'll lose. Sorry.

When coaches make obvious selection howlers it doesn't bode well.

Picking the Killer Bs was what Johnson should have done. It shows he doesn't have a clue.

Pretty steady team selection from Johnson and Ryan, they probably didn't think Barclay was quite fit enough yet and Wilson certainly deserves a place. I think we'll see a bit of further change in the summer tour when the likes of Dunbar,Seymour and Heathcote will start to feature in the team.
We've got the makings of our best team for a long time I feel.

Thats as good as a pack as we can muster at the moment IMO and Weir looked good vs. Ireland. Jackson hasn't ever looked assured of his place.

Still wary of Lamont at 13... we could get a 4-ton truck through the gaps he leaves in midfield.

If we're going to make a statement of our intent... now is the time. The wooden spoon pressure is off, we've shown we don't bulk under immense pressure... now we have to live up to our expectations.

beshocked wrote: Wrong backrow - I think you'll lose. Sorry.

When coaches make obvious selection howlers it doesn't bode well.

Picking the Killer Bs was what Johnson should have done. It shows he doesn't have a clue.

no it doesnt. Kelly Brown is our best 6 yes, but hes also our best utility player. We dont have a openside whos strung enough games together to earn selection, ergo Brown goes to 7. We either have 3 form players in the backrow with one playing in a position thats not his preferred, but still has plenty of experience in, or 2 form players and one whos just coming back from injuury and hasnt hit top form. Hes made absolutely the right call.

IBD - I agree with Beshocked in that I've have gone with Barclay on this one, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that SJ doesn't have a clue.

Barclay has had 2-3 games now so should be fit, but SJ is clearly trying to be consistent with team selection and Rob Harley has done little wrong (other than tackling the man in the air last time round which should have been a yellow card).

My preference would have been to see the Killer B's back together, I think Scotland play better rugby with a proper openside, which Kelly Brown is not.

I for one think that you need to win and win well. We need to see the Welsh team prepared like proper scottish food....battered.....

The two worries for me are 13 and our breakdown

13 could be solved by bringing a center in

The breakdown is more that just bringing in Barclay - it seems we do not compete enough

Very worried about Saturday - very worried

I think scotland are in a goodish place.

I and i am sure scottish fans have enjoyed some of the rugby the team have played..

You are contributing to a good 6 nations yo!

You cant expect more at the moment.. Just to get better and better.. Its all relative

I'm concerned as well, and think Wales will edge us, but the results this 6 Nations have been a marked improvement as has been our ability to score tries, so all in all a positive tournament so far compared with the two prior tournament.

Progress is progress.

Riskysports wrote:The two worries for me are 13 and our breakdown

13 could be solved by bringing a center in

That's crazy talk, Risky. You and your obsession with specialists in specialist roles....

We are potentially quite well furnished here with Dunbar, Grove, the Messiah and hopefully one day Joe Ansbro. All we need is for different centre combinations to be tried on the summer tour.

George Carlin wrote:

Riskysports wrote:The two worries for me are 13 and our breakdown

13 could be solved by bringing a center in

That's crazy talk, Risky. You and your obsession with specialists in specialist roles....

We are potentially quite well furnished here with Dunbar, Grove, the Messiah and hopefully one day Joe Ansbro. All we need is for different centre combinations to be tried on the summer tour.

I try to think outside the box. It is what makes my posts refreshing, tactical and a wee spannerish

Shame for you guys that Nick Di Useless is banned

Where are Scotland? Confusing the heck out of the rest of us. We're used to you being a team that plays better than your results, and now suddenly you're a team winning while playing relatively poorly. Shows the benefit of classy strike runners, and that you seem to have largely overcome the 'white line fever' issues of the last couple of seasons.

On paper you've always had the basis of a good team, but there are still issues with strength in depth. Pity that Ansbro is out, as he looked the real deal at 13, but surely there is a better solution than playing a winger that doesn't pass there? Other than that and figuring out who should play at 10 (and building the game plan around their strengths), you aren't that far away.