France & England Team line ups - France change seven to face England

First topic message reminder :

France team:
Yoann Huget;
Vincent Clerc,
Mathieu Bastareaud,
Wesley Fofana,
Benjamin Fall;
Francois Trinh-Duc,
Morgan Parra;
Thomas Domingo,
Benjamin Kayser,
Nicolas Mas,
Christophe Samson,
Yoann Maestri,
Yannick Nyanga,
Thierry Dusautoir (capt),
Louis Picamoles.

Replacements: Dimitri Szarzewski, Vincent Debaty, Luc Ducalcon, Jocelino Suta, Antonie Claassen, Maxime Machenaud, Frederic Michalak, Florian Fritz.

England:
15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 8 caps);
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 31 caps),
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps),
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 13 caps),
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 13 caps);
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 14 caps),
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 30 caps);
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 7 caps),
2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 44 caps),
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps),
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 6 caps),
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps),
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 17 caps),
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 14 caps),
8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 15 caps).

Replacements: 16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 6 caps), 17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps), 18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 6 caps), 19. James Haskell (London Wasps, 47 caps), 20. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 38 caps), 22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps), 23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester, 2 caps).

I'd be papping it more if this French side had had 2 matches together. Instead it's pretty much a 1st round match for France against an England side that is very little different from the AIs.
Too many changes i think. Still think it'll be tight but don't feel any less confident now than before the announcement.

I do have my doubts as to Basteraud's true identity. He could be Stefan Armitage in a fat suit.

bedfordwelsh wrote:dragon,

I thought he was very poor then agian so was Roberts, I thougt so they sort of cancelled each other out.

I am a big Tuilagi fan and I think he could make Basteraud look very ordinary indeed.

Whereas I am not. He needs Barratt because it is not difficult to confuse him defensively. I can see him him being as much of a liability as an asset in a close game where the opposition has their time on the front foot

lostinwales wrote:I do have my doubts as to Basteraud's true identity. He could be Stefan Armitage in a fat suit.

Resist. Too obvious...

lostinwales wrote:I do have my doubts as to Basteraud's true identity. He could be Stefan Armitage in a fat suit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srH94OR1TbU


....similar sidestep!

This is the one fixture I can't watch, for the last two years I've ended up cutting the grass in the garden by half time.

Big Bast for me is the rugby equivalent of crickets flat track bully. Against top class opponents I cannot recall ever seeing him dominating. I am far more concerned about the threat from Fofana than I am from him.

I am actually really glad that France have put out their best side against us. This will show us where we are at. If we win, we know we beat a good side. If we get ebat, then we will have to suck it up and learn the lessons and come back stronger.

Really looking forward to this game now!

dragonbreath wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:dragon,

I thought he was very poor then agian so was Roberts, I thougt so they sort of cancelled each other out.

I am a big Tuilagi fan and I think he could make Basteraud look very ordinary indeed.

Whereas I am not. He needs Barratt because it is not difficult to confuse him defensively. I can see him him being as much of a liability as an asset in a close game where the opposition has their time on the front foot

He didnt look too confused taking that interception against the AB's. He actually seems to read the game pretty well.

There also seems to be a misconception in certain quarters than MT is just a bosh merchant. He does a lot of that but can step and has pace too. When he does mix things up he makes things happen and thats one thing that makes him so dangerous. Its like he runs into his opposite number 9 times out of 10. 10th time the other guy thinks he knows whats going to happen and it doesnt..

He isnt as good defensively as Barrett - but then not many if any are. On the other hand he probably has scored or made at least as many tries as any other top international center this season.

Against top class opponents I cannot recall ever seeing him dominating. I am far more concerned about the threat from Fofana than I am from him.

Ozzy, i hope i dont end up eating my words here...but i agree. He's just a big lump if you ask me. A solid organised defence should have no issues with him...whereas a quality player like Fofana is a different story.
I'd have been looking for a different partner for Fofana.

Much like Tuilangi the french will look to break up play with their finesse and then get Basterau to run into the space - This guy can be dangerous, I'm surprised by the -vty he's getting on here. Be careful

No need to be careful, I'm merely calling it as I see it. If the big lad puts in a shift and makes me eat my words then so be it, I can live with that.

Fofana is the foil here and the french centre pairing with him in it have more creativity than their boshers opposite - I just see a bit of pot kettle and black going on

Basteraeud is a route 1 player, if anything you know what you will get with him and he tends to seek contact, units often do...as long as England tackle low he is manageable...Tuilagi has more for me and although both are lumps Manu has the edge for me.

I make no comment about French creativity and in fact state that I fear the damage that Fofana has the potential to cause. It doesn't alter the fact that I don't see Bast as a top class international centre. I'm not saying he's rubbish, just that with the defensive solidity of our side, I don't think as an individual he will trouble us overly.

If people have the same opinion of Tuilagi, as you appear to be suggesting with the pot/kettle analogy, then they are welcome to it. I happen to disagree, but respect their right to think that way.

RG
I think the negativity towards Basteraud is understandable - came in to the French side to great hype, had a couple of good games and since then has looked anything but a great player.

Fofana on the other hand...

You may be right though that they could be a good pairing - certainly Fofana has good feet and pace, and can make the half-break and if Basteraud can get in support for an off-load beyond the first line of defence we could be in serious trouble. The thing is though that Basteraud looks a bit of a lazy player, who sees his one role as bashing the ball up straight into the defenders. I know Manu does that a bit, but he does also have the ability to change the point of attack much better either with some footwork or an off-load.

As with the majority of you on here, i'm far more worried about Fofana than Basteraud. However, with him playing at 12 and our line speed, i can't see him getting too much space to work in. Hopefully we can keep that up for the game and shut him down before he can hurt us, because given time and space he can cause some serious damage.

I'm sure i read somewhere that in Basterauds cameo the other day he beat more defenders than anyone else in the tournament has, not sure if i dreamt that or what. I definitely don't remember him being THAT effective.

No sounds about right Beloved. I've read that he's beaten more defenders than anyone else in the Six Nations so far (9), despite playing less than 100 minutes (98). Pretty scary stuff!

Perhaps he was tackled, but his gut still got beyond the gainline?

I have now lost track of the number of times I have had to point out to people that Manu Tuilagi has a good turn of pace as well as great feet. He is NOT just a bosh merchant.

People (not naming names rugbyguby) look at his size and the fact that he can and does truck the ball up and then make this illogical leap to thinking that that is ALL he can do.

I'll give 3 examples off the top of my head….. (there will be more)....

1. try vs Wales off a JW pass. He picked a lovely line and carved straight through the welsh defence to go in under the stick. They barely got a hand on him. Great line and good feet.

2. the try vs France in Paris last year. He went 60m down the touchline and was not caught by anyone until he reached the corner where he powered over. Great turn of speed; and

3. the break and scoring pass to Ashton vs the ABs. He ran a lovely arcing line for that break outpacing Carter on the outside and McCaw in cover (he also fended Aaron Smith) before giving the pass.

Fatbaseroid IS not much more than a bosh merchant from what ive seen of him (not much) but as with others I'll stand corrected if he shows more than that as MT has done.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Perhaps he was tackled, but his gut still got beyond the gainline?

Ha! Maybe, though he must be hard to tackle when you're stuck in his gravitational pull.

Triangulation

He's still learning his craft but he will become that player, he has the skill set for sure.

He has been taken to school a little though.. JDV neutralised him easily in the SA ENG matches. Sure Tuilagi smashed him to pieces but he never broke the tackle, never was able to make any significant damage and JDV in the end always got the upper hand. Its almost like JDV was goading him to smash him knowing he could keep hold of him and end the attack.

Real shame he wasn't fully fit to face BOD in the last match though... and the weather wasn't suitable for an attacking game... that would have been a match up to die for.

fa0019 wrote:Triangulation

He's still learning his craft but he will become that player, he has the skill set for sure.

He has been taken to school a little though.. JDV neutralised him easily in the SA ENG matches. Sure Tuilagi smashed him to pieces but he never broke the tackle, never was able to make any significant damage and JDV in the end always got the upper hand. Its almost like JDV was goading him to smash him knowing he could keep hold of him and end the attack.

Real shame he wasn't fully fit to face BOD in the last match though... and the weather wasn't suitable for an attacking game... that would have been a match up to die for.

Fair enough.

I agree with all of what you say but I must point out that…

I haven't claimed that he is some freak combination of Horan, Little, Bunce, BOD etc

All I have done is to defend him against allegations of being "just a bosh merchant" which is just patently wrong. He is developing but is already well past being the limited player claimed ……..see the many examples.

fa0019 wrote:Triangulation

He's still learning his craft but he will become that player, he has the skill set for sure.

He has been taken to school a little though.. JDV neutralised him easily in the SA ENG matches. Sure Tuilagi smashed him to pieces but he never broke the tackle, never was able to make any significant damage and JDV in the end always got the upper hand. Its almost like JDV was goading him to smash him knowing he could keep hold of him and end the attack.

Real shame he wasn't fully fit to face BOD in the last match though... and the weather wasn't suitable for an attacking game... that would have been a match up to die for.

I agree he looked average and JDV did a decent job to negate him, but he hardly got the upper hand or was 'schooled'. I remember Manu putting him on his arse at least once and him having to be bailed out by Steyn then trying to grin it off. The problem is that like anyone getting slow ball at a standstill, you tend to look a bit rubbish. We were poor in those games all round in my opinion.

Overall I think this is good news for England. A demoralised France forced into changing half of their team are travelling to Twickenham where they've not had good results with a settled team. I thought England were favourites anyway but now they should beat them comfortably.

[quote="Triangulation"]I have now lost track of the number of times I have had to point out to people that Manu Tuilagi has a good turn of pace as well as great feet. He is NOT just a bosh merchant.

Unfortunately you repeating it endlessly does not make it true. Three swallows does not a god like centre make. You got some serious Man (u) love going on there Tri. He just ain't all that. He is a good player but no more.

[quote="dragonbreath"]

Triangulation wrote:I have now lost track of the number of times I have had to point out to people that Manu Tuilagi has a good turn of pace as well as great feet. He is NOT just a bosh merchant.

Unfortunately you repeating it endlessly does not make it true. Three swallows does not a god like centre make. You got some serious Man (u) love going on there Tri. He just ain't all that. He is a good player but no more.

He is just a good player but no more.

Errrrrmmmmm I do think he is a better player than Jamie Roberts. He ( Manu Tuilagi that is.) he as more turn of pace a good side step. Unlike Jamie Roberts.

See now maj your points are so devalued when a comment against Tuilagi suddenly makes you spit venom about Welsh players. How did Jamie Roberts get dragged into an argument where he has no comparison with a player who plays a different position?

Tuilagi has improved a lot, and has shown far more skillset wise than his brothers have (they were pure force and speed) but lets be honest he is no super talent. He's great at what he does, similarly to Basteraud his physiacal attributes more than make up for his skillset.

I for one am looking forward to seeing these 2 opposing each other, Basteraud shows to be unbelievably difficult to stop, and is a big brash bully, whereas thats very similar to Tuilagi's game. I just hope Tuilagi isn't being rushed back in an attempt to physically match Bast!

I think that Manu is a talent (not sure about Super Talent) and there is probably quite a bit more to come from him. He seems to be more complete now than earlier in his career... I take blues point about rushing him in to face Basteraud though - that could well hurt!

stub

Id be more worried about the lure of Basteraud causin Fofana to run riot in the wider channels.

Barritt has started well, and if nothing else he is a defencive rock, but what happens to the rock if The french midfield get some decent service? Basteraud is more than capable of keeping Barritt busy while Fofana goes wider.

That said I don't think England have a huge amount to fear (well except for the midfield and 8,9 combo) and should go out to put it to France early on. If England keep it tight and nervy I think that'll suit France who will be praying for a victory Wales managed in Paris, England have to serve up wide ball early on and look to exploit the back 3, Fall and Huget are very weak at times defencively.

I agree - there's no doubt that England have more to worry about than just Basteraud - although it has to be said that he is a beast. France can be quality and will not want to lose a third match - particularly against England. Can't wait for this match.

[quote="majesticimperialman"]

dragonbreath wrote:

Triangulation wrote:I have now lost track of the number of times I have had to point out to people that Manu Tuilagi has a good turn of pace as well as great feet. He is NOT just a bosh merchant.

Unfortunately you repeating it endlessly does not make it true. Three swallows does not a god like centre make. You got some serious Man (u) love going on there Tri. He just ain't all that. He is a good player but no more.

He is just a good player but no more.

Errrrrmmmmm I do think he is a better player than Jamie Roberts. He ( Manu Tuilagi that is.) he as more turn of pace a good side step. Unlike Jamie Roberts.

Jamie Roberts was a Lions Man of the Series. Manu isn't even the best player in his family.

The game could be a classic now that the French have abandoned the eccentric selection policy. Howley take note!

Jamie Roberts was a Lions Man of the Series. Manu isn't even the best player in his family.

The word there is "WAS" A lions man of the seires.

He doesent Look any thing like a Lion.....Or Lion contender. At this moment in time any way.

majesticimperialman wrote:Jamie Roberts was a Lions Man of the Series. Manu isn't even the best player in his family.

The word there is "WAS" A lions man of the seires.

He doesent Look any thing like a Lion.....Or Lion contender. At this moment in time any way.

I think the Welsh midfield is the most leaden footed, bosh-merchant there is. BUT Manu is hardly fleet of foot, he needs to improve in just about every facet of his game to be a top class international I think. Minus defence and power I guess.

Seems a few don't rate Manu - hope France think the same way, because if they don't keep close tabs on him he'll tear holes in their line.

I think Roberts got dragged into this because a welsh person said that Tuilagi was a bosh merchant and just a good player. Roberts won player of the lions series and everyone accepted that and agreed. Tuilagi is similar to Roberts but imo does everything he does better and also offers more. He's stronger, faster and heavier plus has a decent step on him and, contrary to popular belief, is a very good passer of the ball. Seems strange to an englishmen to laud one as being world class and the other as not, especially when one has no form at all.

Anyways, Tuilagi does have an all around game (kicking aside) and is still very young. As such, he tends to fade in and out of some games, whilst being able to win games single handedly (see the NZ game). He should develop his consistency as he gets more game time and we should start to see the best of him after a few more seasons. He reminds me a bit like Youngs, who was either incredible or rubbish. He's finally managed to sort that out now and has been consistently good for quite a while, same as Care, hopefully tuilagi will follow. I think he has the potential to be one of the top 3 13s in world rugby.

nobbled wrote:Seems a few the Welsh don't rate Manu - hope France think the same way, because if they don't keep close tabs on him he'll tear holes in their line.

Fixed that for you. No charge.

Ha, could be on to something there Ozzy

17 international matches 9 tries, match winning performance vs the all blacks. Yeah hes pretty mediocre really

Whatever happens in the 6N, I'm happy that Lancaster is building a group of 30-40 players that should give England plenty of options come 2015.

This game is my favourite in the 6N though. - Le Crunch.

I agree with an earlier post that I'm glad PSA has finally picked a French side that looks their strongest, given injury absences. This French team will test a still relatively inexperienced England.

I can't call this one, other than to say that discipline may well decide it. With Parra and Farrell taking the kicks, not conceding penalties inside the 40m line will be key.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

nobbled wrote:Seems a few the Welsh don't rate Manu - hope France think the same way, because if they don't keep close tabs on him he'll tear holes in their line.

Fixed that for you. No charge.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Whatever happens in the 6N, I'm happy that Lancaster is building a group of 30-40 players that should give England plenty of options come 2015.

This game is my favourite in the 6N though. - Le Crunch.

I agree with an earlier post that I'm glad PSA has finally picked a French side that looks their strongest, given injury absences. This French team will test a still relatively inexperienced England.

I can't call this one, other than to say that discipline may well decide it. With Parra and Farrell taking the kicks, not conceding penalties inside the 40m line will be key.

Sensible. As a neutral, could be a great contest.

LondonTiger wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I think that tight 5 still looks pretty weak, particularly the second row, England win for me.

Not sure I agree - that is a very good front row this time. Domingo is a real technician and will test Cole to the full, while Mas is excellent. Kayser is, for me, far superior to Dimitri Pretty Boy. Very strong looking back row.

Why the hell did PSA wait to the 3rd round to start picking the best players in their correct positions?

Domingo is a fantastic loose head, Mas however I think has always been more hype than anything else. He's had a few brilliant performances but a lot of very mediocre performances. Kayser is certainly nothing special in my view, solid all round performer at best. The second row for France has been all over the place. Suta was very poor and having done nothing with his first few caps at 30 I don't see where Saint Andre thinks he is going to be able to take him. He's replaced him with Samson for this match who has but a single cap despite now being 28. Domingo aside I think its a very average tight 5....... the French tight 5 is there for the taking.

One thing I have not seen discussed here - with England using fast line speed to close down the opposition when they have the ball will the skills of Parra and Trin Duc be enough to negate this? chips over the top, miss passes etc.

I think this will be the key area - can they vary the game enough to confuse englands defense?

If thats the French game plan I'm happy for them to try it.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Big Bast for me is the rugby equivalent of crickets flat track bully. Against top class opponents I cannot recall ever seeing him dominating. I am far more concerned about the threat from Fofana than I am from him.

I am actually really glad that France have put out their best side against us. This will show us where we are at. If we win, we know we beat a good side. If we get ebat, then we will have to suck it up and learn the lessons and come back stronger.

Really looking forward to this game now!

... and so it came to pass!

Yep, good call Ozzy.

I thought that Manu came out of this match up quite well.