England vs France: Match Thread

[nathan]

First topic message reminder :

Couldn't see a match thread for this, so i created this one.

Getting nervous, haven't a clue who will win.

[ChequeredJersey]

I agree that what makes a good starter and makes a good sub are different things

[welshy6]

like I said the ref helped previously but in rugby you have to play the ref and they won deservedly.
what changes would England supporters make to face Italy?
personally I would swap Youngs with Hartley. also Lawes on the bench, he was terrible. likewise Wood at 6 as I just haven't been impressed with him at 8.
also who is the other option at wing instead of ashton, I mean apart from annoying huget did he do anything???
positives, barret was a rock, Robshaw really played well, and goode and brown worked well.

[welshy6]

From Nick Easter's Twitterfeed-

"From one No 8 to another. Picomoles u r something else with ball in hand pal!! Outstanding game. Subtle foot work with tree trunk thighs"

yeh Picamole was immense, Nyangae also outshone Lawes who to me looks like a big scary player but really didn't have much of an impact (mainly due to his missed tackles!!!!!)
However I think robshaw jut shaded Dusatoir which is all I need to say. Well played robshaw

[dummy_half]

Good win for England - second best for the first half but kept themselves in the game and would have been leading at the half but for Fofana's brilliance, which showed great spirit.

Second half was a seriously different story - Haskell, Youngs and Vunipola made a difference to our dynamism at the breakdown, while at the same time France were making some very odd changes that weakened their side. OK, we had a couple of lucky moments (the accidental offside before Manu's try), but really were well on top from about 55 minutes other than when Picamoles got his hands on the ball.

Robshaw was immense again, and I thought Parling was quietly effective too. This game did though show that we need Morgan back as Wood is not really a great 8 and Lawes clearly isn't an international class blind side (too slow - Fofana wouldn't have got outside a true blindside to make his break).

The really good thing is that again we won the game reasonably comfortably while only putting in about a 6/10 performance overall.

[ChequeredJersey]

Decent match with the ladies too. Off to a dinner now. Good luck to Scotland and Ireland tomorrow, not sure whom I want to win there, usually suuport the Scots but the lady is Irish so might get in trouble there

[tatterd]

Well it pains me to say this as a Welshman but France, on that performance would have betaen us. (even given the second half substitutions, they were good enough to have had the game won by halftime.) And yes, the logical extension of this is that England are far too good for us at the moment. They play the game with more pace, have a better attack, as good a defence, and make less mistakes. England will win the GS in Cardiff

[Cyril]

Well it pains me to say this as a Welshman but France, on that performance would have betaen us. (even given the second half substitutions, they were good enough to have had the game won by halftime.) And yes, the logical extension of this is that England are far too good for us at the moment. They play the game with more pace, have a better attack, as good a defence, and make less mistakes. England will win the GS in Cardiff

Hooray!

Hang on, you're not trying to jinx us, are you?

[tatterd]

Well it pains me to say this as a Welshman but France, on that performance would have betaen us. (even given the second half substitutions, they were good enough to have had the game won by halftime.) And yes, the logical extension of this is that England are far too good for us at the moment. They play the game with more pace, have a better attack, as good a defence, and make less mistakes. England will win the GS in Cardiff

Hooray!

Hang on, you're not trying to jinx us, are you?

would that it were so Cyril me old mucka. I don't know how it happened, but England got good

[yappysnap]

Dissapointed with how Hartley and Lawes turned out in this game, yes it was tougher up front than Ireland but both seemed to be cruising rather than going all out like Youngs and Wood/Hask do from the start.

Not sure if they should start the next game or not.

Also I'd like to see Ashton dropped but then the only alternative to him in the EPS is Strettle who hardly inspires confidence.

So do people still want the 36/Manu partnership to be given a start or has this game made the Barritt/Manu pair come back in to favour? And should Brown still be on the wing or moved to 15? We definitely looked far less threatening out wide than France did.

[mystiroakey]

Barrit could be dropped v Italy for 36.. But what is it gonna tell us... However they do we must start Barrit v Wales

[Ozzy3213]

I'd stick with Barritt and Manu I the centre and bring Wade onto Ashtons wing for Italy.

[lostinwales]

Both Brown and Goode looked good today - as they did vs Ireland. Goode was poor vs Scotland but did have excuses. I hope there will be a time when we dont need Goode with Farrell at fly half but they complement each other well.

[thebluesmancometh]

Both Brown and Goode looked good today

Was Brown playing

[Cyril]

Both Brown and Goode looked good today

Was Brown playing

Were you watching?

[thebluesmancometh]

Ye, was Brown?

[Cyril]

bluesman,

I'm actually too happy with our win to bother with your inane arguments against players you decide you don't like?

Begone with your ill-informed, mealy-mouthed bile! Begone!

It's not wanted here.

You're the guy who doesn't rate Manu and thinks Mike Phillips is brilliant

[ChequeredJersey]

Brown got the ball 4 times, all, I think, in the 2nd half, all as a winger, all off his wing none from kicks. He made 19m, beat 2 defenders and made an offload. Unlike Ashton, he made his 3 tackles and missed none. Not especially good, but better than Clerc, Ashton, Fall despite getting less ball than the first 2 and the same as the last one. For a FB playing somewhere he literally never ever plays for Quins, he's doing bloody well

[yappysnap]

Agree Ozzy, Barritt and Manu is the best pairing.


How has JJ been playing, is he injured or something? Could he come in to the wing?

[yappysnap]

Agree Ozzy, Barritt and Manu is the best pairing.


How has JJ been playing, is he injured or something? Could he come in to the wing?

[tatterd]

bluesman,

I'm actually too happy with our win to bother with your inane arguments against players you decide you don't like?

Begone with your ill-informed, mealy-mouthed bile! Begone!

It's not wanted here.

You're the guy who doesn't rate Manu and thinks Mike Phillips is brilliant

now steady on Cyril old bean. Spikey might not be the greatest SH but he hates England - wouldn't put it past him to tear a few of you a new arse whilst putting in a MOTM performance. (albeit in a losing side )

[lostinwales]

Brown didnt see the ball at all first half. Doesnt mean hes poor for it.

When he did get the ball in the second half he looked pretty damn good. One point he picked the ball off a ruck (or got passed to) no speed right in front of the French pack and he still made ground and was very very hard to put down. I think what makes really good players is the ability to make something out of nothing - Fofana did that (big time) in the first half - Brown did it late on.

couple more thing to add - isnt it funny how often that its Tuilagi who picks up interceptions - or gets to be in the right place at the right time to pick up the ball like he did today (and doesnt he look so much better running with the ball that without it)

And Ashton - I dont think hes quite as bad as many have made out today but it would be great if he could just pass the ball once or twice..

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Strettle just scored a good finishers try for Sarries. Cant see him getting picked ahead of assclown though.

[mystiroakey]

Ashton tried his heart off. His work rate was fine. Had a bad game that's all. He won't be dropped

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Ye, was Brown?

Yeah hes stood right behind Tuilagi when he runs in his try watching someone else do all the work.
Tuilagi, the guy you spent the last 6 nations slagging off *shrug*

[yappysnap]

Ashton has missed tackles in all three games so far and was directly responsible for tries being conceded against Scotland and now France.

He was exactly the same in the autumn too.

[aitchw]

Ashton's tackling was dire today. I'm generally one to spring to his defence but he was hesitant, unwilling and a liability when faced with the opposition. He needs 'resting' and maybe he'll find a bit of hunger. The Italy game would be ideal to give Wade a run but not Strettle, please. On second thoughts Strettle would be better than Ashton right now.

Overall the performance today was another milestone in the journey, tested to the limit but coming through, albeit with a bit of luck, but deserving of the result. They come out of this with a new list of stuff to work on but that's a never ending process anyway.

Well done lads.

[maestegmafia]

Great performance by England there. Really impressive, especially the last quarter.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

A second poachers try for Strettle tonight.

In ashtons defence one of those tackles was a bit of a no hope dive, and he'd done damn well after missing the first up tackle on Foffana to get on his feet and chase him down to even try it.

Thing is theres little or no point in england picking wingers at all when they are playing this style. They were very much set up to stop France first then worry about scoring later, same as vs Ireland. Negative but efficient.

With Brown and Goode being putting together try scoring records to rival Mark Jones England need a try scoring winger in there somewhere just on the off chance the team does create something.

Twelvetrees and Wade would make England a lot more fun, not convinced theyd win more mind.

[Ozzy3213]

Agree Ozzy, Barritt and Manu is the best pairing.


How has JJ been playing, is he injured or something? Could he come in to the wing?

Currently injured, and not been in great form when he has played.

[stub]

I too thought that England looked much better when Lawes and Hartley came off and this seemed to tip the balance in England favour. Great result and the margin was better than I thought it would be. Hope that Lawes and Hartley now stay on the bench... Don't know about Ashton really - didn't cover himself in glory today with the missed tackle but not sure if England have better options just now.

[Hound_of_Harrow]

I'm not bothered about the naysayers, and thanks for the nice ackowledgements from the non-English posters on England's overall performance.



However, that was way short of the performance I expected from England. Some changes for Italy I would think.

PS - Robshaw got MOTM, but Wood and Picamoles had great games too.

[captain carrantuohil]

When a side can be as outplayed as England were in the first half, having both got their back row selection so badly wrong and missed so many tackles against a much better French side (both on paper and on the day) than turned up in weeks 1 and 2, to come away with a ten point win has to say something positive.

It's always difficult to judge from 100 feet up, but England seemed to me to play proper Test rugby in the second half. Shut them down, appeared to be the mantra, and by God it worked. France had the life squeezed out of them in the second period and there were very few alarms after Tuilagi's fortuitous try. Miles from perfect, no doubt, but there is something to be said for a side with the priceless knack of winning games in all conditions, whatever sort of collective form they may be in.

Dare I say that they remind me a little of the Welsh team of twelve months ago?

[mystiroakey]

On paper no. On the day no.. First 20 mins yes..

[captain carrantuohil]

Don't think you read what I wrote properly.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Miles from perfect, no doubt, but there is something to be said for a side with the priceless knack of winning games in all conditions, whatever sort of collective form they may be in.

Well said. Winning is all that matters. Three from three speaks for itself.

[mystiroakey]

Don't think you read what I wrote properly.

your right soz!!

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

what's clear is that England need more options at Loosehead and 8. With corbs and Morgan the pack looks unstoppable, without them less so.

[Hood83]

Finally watched the game. Thought we (England) were pretty poor and the French changes clearly handed it to us.

Lineout - a mess. We had plenty of options re jumpers, and Hartley was brought in to be improve our stats in this area. We got dominated.

Scrum - We were battered. Again, Hartley was brought on to stiffen this up but failed to. Clearly not all his fault but given Wales' dominance of Italy, that's going to be a worry for the Welsh game. I think for the first time our lack of 'ballast' showed here, as well at the technical excellence of Domingo et al.

Breakdown - Very disappointing, we hit it slow, late and with too few numbers. Worrying players like Wood looked to have gone backwards and look like the tall, rangy players they are e.g. not as effective as the cannonball shape guys. I think we missed the aggression and accuracy of T Youngs and the power of players like Morgan and Haskell. We were second best.

Defence - Line-speed was great, but we missed far too many first-up tackles. Partly it was players like Picamoles having a blinder.

Back-line - Pretty impotent, but they didn't get great, quick ball. I think a player like Fofana shows us what we miss in terms of creativity there.

Offloading - Non-existent but France attacked the carrier in numbers so it was tough.

Carrying - We really need Morgan or B Vunipola in as we looked as we were - lightweight. The athleticism of our pack is very good, but this game showed us the value of having players who can really get over the gain-line.

All in all. Not great, we got the rub of the green and sneaked it. I thought Picamoles was a clear man of the match.

[mystiroakey]

It is good that we have showed up some weaknesses to be honest. Something to work on. Would have prefered to play wales next to really cement and work on the problems!

No disrespect to italy - but they had there game first up , and have never played decent at twickers.

[Hood83]

Also, i like Ashton, and I'm not sure he can be faulted for us having a gameplan which in no way involves the wings, depressingly. But given his defence looks pretty average at the moment, I see no reason why Wade shouldn't be given a shot. The worry for that is that he would at some point have to play against North and Cuthbert....I don't fancy seeing that.

[mystiroakey]

Hood I think the first 20 minutes stayed with you abit to long tbh..

the reason france made the changes from my opinion is because england started applying pressure and getting the upper hand from 20 mins to 50 mins..

then there was only one team in the game.. as the subs didnt work out- wereas ours really did!!

even if there orignal players had stayed on there wouldnt have been as fit as our subs..

[Hood83]

Dissapointed with how Hartley and Lawes turned out in this game, yes it was tougher up front than Ireland but both seemed to be cruising rather than going all out like Youngs and Wood/Hask do from the start.

Not sure if they should start the next game or not.

Also I'd like to see Ashton dropped but then the only alternative to him in the EPS is Strettle who hardly inspires confidence.

So do people still want the 36/Manu partnership to be given a start or has this game made the Barritt/Manu pair come back in to favour? And should Brown still be on the wing or moved to 15? We definitely looked far less threatening out wide than France did.

I think Twelvetrees defence is pretty good, not as destructive but solid. I would like to see him get decent game-time against both Italy and Wales.

[Hood83]

Hood I think the first 20 minutes stayed with you abit to long tbh..

the reason france made the changes from my opinion is because england started applying pressure and getting the upper hand from 20 mins to 50 mins..

then there was only one team in the game.. as the subs didnt work out- wereas ours really did!!

even if there orignal players had stayed on there wouldnt have been as fit as our subs..

Yeah, that's a fair point probably. I'd probably need to watch it all again. I didn't feel like we were getting the upper hand when they made the subs, maybe we were gaining parity though.

[mystiroakey]

Brown for full back for me.

I think he is immense.

he has so much power and guile.

If not i am happy to keep him in the side,he just needs to work out his positioning on the wing.(when you havent played there that often- it must be tough to work out your surrondings and how to play defensively- but he has the attributes..

[mystiroakey]

yeh maybe it was only parity.

However we were on the assedance. and the french coach may have the idea that the french players can only play so well for 50 mins.. France never seem to be able to put a full 80 mins in. He clearly loves his game plan(the one he picked for the first two games) and wanted to give it another go when they might have the fitness edge late on..

Anyway france are not a complete side. They dont have the same options as teams like NZ SA or even ENG at the moment. They have alot of work to do clearly before the all black tour

We have proven different options. When we have made changes recently we still look very good. There is a passion playing for england at the moment. The lads are fighting for there lives to remain part of the squad

[stub]

yeh maybe it was only parity.

However we were on the assedance. and the french coach may have the idea that the french players can only play so well for 50 mins.. France never seem to be able to put a full 80 mins in. He clearly loves his game plan(the one he picked for the first two games) and wanted to give it another go when they might have the fitness edge late on..

Anyway france are not a complete side. They dont have the same options as teams like NZ SA or even ENG at the moment. They have alot of work to do clearly before the all black tour

We have proven different options. When we have made changes recently we still look very good. There is a passion playing for england at the moment. The lads are fighting for there lives to remain part of the squad

Yep, I think this is the aspect which pleases me most. There seems to be real competition too for some places and this must be very useful for SL as a motivating factor.

[Alex_Germany]

A second poachers try for Strettle tonight.

In ashtons defence one of those tackles was a bit of a no hope dive, and he'd done damn well after missing the first up tackle on Foffana to get on his feet and chase him down to even try it.

Thing is theres little or no point in england picking wingers at all when they are playing this style. They were very much set up to stop France first then worry about scoring later, same as vs Ireland. Negative but efficient.

With Brown and Goode being putting together try scoring records to rival Mark Jones England need a try scoring winger in there somewhere just on the off chance the team does create something.

Twelvetrees and Wade would make England a lot more fun, not convinced theyd win more mind.

Ashton's no hope dive (after a first brush off) was a big mistake. Ashton is the fastest player in the England team and without ball is capable of catching Fofana with ball. A last ditch dive is what backrowers do to stop wingers, not what wingers do to centres 30 yards from the line.

(Remember Worsleys last ditch try saving tackle in the RWC - I think v Australia. Apparently someone recognised him coming out of a public toilet, and said "nice tackle").

[Alex_Germany]

Couldn't find a player rating here, so without referring to the Telegraph, and from memory, and trying not to give 6-8 all round, my thoughts. Please edit:

1. Cole: Got beat at the scrum for once but good in the loose. His getting back on feet to hunt the turnover is great. 6
2. Hartley: Didn't help in the scrum or line out. Anonymous in the loose: 4
3. Marler: Anonymous. 4
4. Parling: Put in some good tackles and had a presence. But he's also meant to be running the linout. 5
5. Launchbury: Got around a lot and was a nuisance. 7
6. Lawes: Not a 6. Missed tackles, few carries. 3
7. Robshaw: Captain's performance, lots of carries, got everywhere. 8
8. Wood: Looked superb in the last quarter (perhaps taking heart from Tom Youngs), struggled when going back. 7
9. Youngs: A charge down, no breaks, otherwise fairly reliable but not a threat. 5
10. Farrell: Got flustered in open play, missed some kicks, but some good passes. Should probably have made/got a try when attempting kick to the corner. 5
11: Brown: Quiet first half, started to break tackles in the second half. Well placed (again) if tuilagi couldn't get to the line. 6
12: Barritt: Part of superb England line defence. Tackled everything. 8
13: Tuilagi: Looked menacing and completely outclassed his big opposite number. Superb pickup off ankles for his try. 8
14: Ashton: Chased well and some OK runs in centre, but tackling is not optional. 4
15: Goode: Safe and reliable but not threatening. 5

Subs:
Youngs: Phenomenal carrying and tackling. Probably higher work rate of anyone else (all be it for 30 minutes): 8
Vanipolu: Looked great carrying but needs to engage brain more - nearly got a second yellow card in a few matches. Needs more fitness if he wants to start: 6
Haskell: Stopped a tiring French backrow - looked good going forward: 7
Care: Looked dangerous and responsible for some quick phases in the last quarter: 7.
Flood: Again, looked dangerous and was threatening an interception: 7

Edit: Now looking at the DT, seems fairly similar - perhaps more generous on the under and average performers. Main point of difference is Parling, who leads the worst performing line out in the championship. Steve James says: "The line-out expert and showed notable energy throughout, showing up his opponents in this respect. 7". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9890318/Six-Nations-2013-England-v-France-player-ratings.html

[LondonTiger]

Marler 5 - Really struggled with Mas, otherwise fairly anonymous
Hartley 4 - Struggled in scrums and lineouts
Cole 6 - Really struggled at first with the diminutive Domigo. Had gained parity by the time Domin go left and dominated his replacement. Excellent work in the loose (only one tackle less than Robshaw).
Parling 6 - solid game
Launchbury 7 - Excellent defence. Why is he not used in the lineout?
Lawes 2 - Poor
Robshaw 8 - good game
Wood 8 - Not a No8 but had an excellent match.
Youngs 7 - Controlled things well, will have been disappointed to be handed of by fofana
Farrell 5 - Not his best match, but will learn from this.
Brown 7 - another solid, understated performance.
Barritt 8 - defensive rock upon which the win was built
Tuilagi 7 - so much better than Baseraud. About Englands only threat, just needs to be involved more.
Ashton 2 -
Goode 6 - Decent showing

Replacements:
Youngs and Care 7
Vunipola, Flood and Haskell 6

[englandglory4ever]

That was a serious test match and showed exactly where England's weaknesses were. ie:-

1. Ashton is just not up to it when it comes to the toughest sides. He will probably look good against Italy but that will paper over the very wide cracks in his game.

2. Lawes is not a backrow forward at the highest level. Keep him for the engine room.

So what do we do about it?

1. We know Ashton is a good finisher with ball in hand so just replacing him with another good finisher with similar defensive weaknesses is not the answer. We need a winger with a good all round game. Monye is playing exceptionally well for his club right now.

2. SL is slipping in to the old A.Robinson days of playing people out-of-position. We must have back row players that ARE back row players for their clubs.

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