England vs France: Match Thread

[nathan]

First topic message reminder :

Couldn't see a match thread for this, so i created this one.

Getting nervous, haven't a clue who will win.

[nathan]

That was a serious test match and showed exactly where England's weaknesses were. ie:-

1. Ashton is just not up to it when it comes to the toughest sides. He will probably look good against Italy but that will paper over the very wide cracks in his game.

2. Lawes is not a backrow forward at the highest level. Keep him for the engine room.

So what do we do about it?

1. We know Ashton is a good finisher with ball in hand so just replacing him with another good finisher with similar defensive weaknesses is not the answer. We need a winger with a good all round game. Monye is playing exceptionally well for his club right now.

2. SL is slipping in to the old A.Robinson days of playing people out-of-position. We must have back row players that ARE back row players for their clubs.

Your being a bit harsh there, I have nothing wrong with Lancaster trying players in different positions, so long as said player(s) are changed back after a failed move. This team is a development team, aiming for the RWC 2015. he needs to find out who can play where etc, he needs to learn as much about the players as possible.

[100%beefy]

Ashton is great but rubbish in defence, defence wins games and also loses them (obviously)

I agree about Lawes and he was poor yesterday

I thhink England went up a gear yesterday in that they had to really fight for that one. Not taking anything froma comprehensive win but PSA made huge errors in subsituting Parra and Trin Duc amongst others and it was the disparity in quality on the bench that nailed it, and some poor refereeing which France will feel rightly aggrieved about.

[doctor_grey]

Morning boys and girls. Still reasonably happy about yesterday. A lot to improve upon, but reasonably happy none-the-less.

I really didn't have a problem with Lawes playing at 6. He played there quite a bit at Saints and did very well. Obviously, not so well for England. But Wood is a different case. Almost never played at 8 for Saints. I think he did extremely well considering his lack of experience there. In open play on attack and defence, I thought he was very good.

[Barney McGrew did it]

France took the 1st half just (that’s right - just, it was a ferocious battle) with the main difference being Fofana’s brilliance. Lawes missed the tackle – however Fofana is a top class centre/wing and if he can’t beat a lock (yes, that’s what Lawes is), one-on-one, on the outside he should hang his head in shame. Ashton didn’t expect to have to make the tackle but just flapped at it. The French BR shaded the 1st half. France made too many mistakes at the tackle/ruck.

The 2nd half was controlled dominance by England helped hugely by the subs (both English and French).

Hartley was brought in to bolster the scrum and for the LO. He didn’t take his chance to outshine T Youngs, altho’ Parling wasn’t up to speed in the LO (conversely Youngs did take his chance to push for top hooker). Launchbury was excellent – my tip for the Lions. With a proper no 8 Robshaw is indispensible; without one he’s whatever is beyond indispensible. Cole lost 2 scrums but won 1 – his contribution was in the loose.

I thought Farrell was a bit poor, some dodgy passes, and looked a bit rattled at times. Youngs was too quiet and made the odd mistake. Barritt is now a shoo-in IMO.

Lowest performance score goes to SL this time. Lawes and Wood showed what they are – a lock and a b/s, respectively. SL did redeem himself somewhat with his bench.

Brain Moore played a blinder.

That was a full-on test and let’s face it if both sides played that consistently well and aggressively, the final 6N table would have England top, and France 2nd. With ease. Bit of a shame for France.

BTW who was that fat bloke who stood in the French midfield?

[welshy6]

Couldn't find a player rating here, so without referring to the Telegraph, and from memory, and trying not to give 6-8 all round, my thoughts. Please edit:

1. Cole: Got beat at the scrum for once but good in the loose. His getting back on feet to hunt the turnover is great. 6
2. Hartley: Didn't help in the scrum or line out. Anonymous in the loose: 4
3. Marler: Anonymous. 4
4. Parling: Put in some good tackles and had a presence. But he's also meant to be running the linout. 5
5. Launchbury: Got around a lot and was a nuisance. 7
6. Lawes: Not a 6. Missed tackles, few carries. 3
7. Robshaw: Captain's performance, lots of carries, got everywhere. 8
8. Wood: Looked superb in the last quarter (perhaps taking heart from Tom Youngs), struggled when going back. 7
9. Youngs: A charge down, no breaks, otherwise fairly reliable but not a threat. 5
10. Farrell: Got flustered in open play, missed some kicks, but some good passes. Should probably have made/got a try when attempting kick to the corner. 5
11: Brown: Quiet first half, started to break tackles in the second half. Well placed (again) if tuilagi couldn't get to the line. 6
12: Barritt: Part of superb England line defence. Tackled everything. 8
13: Tuilagi: Looked menacing and completely outclassed his big opposite number. Superb pickup off ankles for his try. 8
14: Ashton: Chased well and some OK runs in centre, but tackling is not optional. 4
15: Goode: Safe and reliable but not threatening. 5

Subs:
Youngs: Phenomenal carrying and tackling. Probably higher work rate of anyone else (all be it for 30 minutes): 8
Vanipolu: Looked great carrying but needs to engage brain more - nearly got a second yellow card in a few matches. Needs more fitness if he wants to start: 6
Haskell: Stopped a tiring French backrow - looked good going forward: 7
Care: Looked dangerous and responsible for some quick phases in the last quarter: 7.
Flood: Again, looked dangerous and was threatening an interception: 7

Edit: Now looking at the DT, seems fairly similar - perhaps more generous on the under and average performers. Main point of difference is Parling, who leads the worst performing line out in the championship. Steve James says: "The line-out expert and showed notable energy throughout, showing up his opponents in this respect. 7". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9890318/Six-Nations-2013-England-v-France-player-ratings.html

I am sorry but I don't see how tuilagi outshone Basteraud? Barret was left to defend against Basteraud and he did, effectively, Bateraud is not just this big bash centre everyone thinks he is, if you notice his distribution was also pretty good, and he straightened and held the defence allowing Fofana the Space for his try. And he is also good at offloading in the tackle although wasn't as much evidence in this match due to England's generally good defence. Also while he looked menacing on occasion it was obvious what he was going to do each time, just run, and while he is extremely effective at this, his opposite number varied his game a lot more.
I cant help but think Tuilagi is overrated, While Barret is very underrated, who tackled everything, straightened the line and tried to beat the defence on the outside with a little step, compared to running into the opposite player like Tuilagi.

[nathan]

Couldn't find a player rating here, so without referring to the Telegraph, and from memory, and trying not to give 6-8 all round, my thoughts. Please edit:

1. Cole: Got beat at the scrum for once but good in the loose. His getting back on feet to hunt the turnover is great. 6
2. Hartley: Didn't help in the scrum or line out. Anonymous in the loose: 4
3. Marler: Anonymous. 4
4. Parling: Put in some good tackles and had a presence. But he's also meant to be running the linout. 5
5. Launchbury: Got around a lot and was a nuisance. 7
6. Lawes: Not a 6. Missed tackles, few carries. 3
7. Robshaw: Captain's performance, lots of carries, got everywhere. 8
8. Wood: Looked superb in the last quarter (perhaps taking heart from Tom Youngs), struggled when going back. 7
9. Youngs: A charge down, no breaks, otherwise fairly reliable but not a threat. 5
10. Farrell: Got flustered in open play, missed some kicks, but some good passes. Should probably have made/got a try when attempting kick to the corner. 5
11: Brown: Quiet first half, started to break tackles in the second half. Well placed (again) if tuilagi couldn't get to the line. 6
12: Barritt: Part of superb England line defence. Tackled everything. 8
13: Tuilagi: Looked menacing and completely outclassed his big opposite number. Superb pickup off ankles for his try. 8
14: Ashton: Chased well and some OK runs in centre, but tackling is not optional. 4
15: Goode: Safe and reliable but not threatening. 5

Subs:
Youngs: Phenomenal carrying and tackling. Probably higher work rate of anyone else (all be it for 30 minutes): 8
Vanipolu: Looked great carrying but needs to engage brain more - nearly got a second yellow card in a few matches. Needs more fitness if he wants to start: 6
Haskell: Stopped a tiring French backrow - looked good going forward: 7
Care: Looked dangerous and responsible for some quick phases in the last quarter: 7.
Flood: Again, looked dangerous and was threatening an interception: 7

Edit: Now looking at the DT, seems fairly similar - perhaps more generous on the under and average performers. Main point of difference is Parling, who leads the worst performing line out in the championship. Steve James says: "The line-out expert and showed notable energy throughout, showing up his opponents in this respect. 7". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9890318/Six-Nations-2013-England-v-France-player-ratings.html

I am sorry but I don't see how tuilagi outshone Basteraud? Barret was left to defend against Basteraud and he did, effectively, Bateraud is not just this big bash centre everyone thinks he is, if you notice his distribution was also pretty good, and he straightened and held the defence allowing Fofana the Space for his try. And he is also good at offloading in the tackle although wasn't as much evidence in this match due to England's generally good defence. Also while he looked menacing on occasion it was obvious what he was going to do each time, just run, and while he is extremely effective at this, his opposite number varied his game a lot more.
I cant help but think Tuilagi is overrated, While Barret is very underrated, who tackled everything, straightened the line and tried to beat the defence on the outside with a little step, compared to running into the opposite player like Tuilagi.

Did you watch the game?

Tuilagi ran past Basteraud on more than one occasion. So Basteraud didn't play as good as you think and Tuilagi did more than "running into the opposite player"

[aitchw]

Jeez, welshy, I think I was watching a different game to the one you saw. Bastereaud was ineffective overall compared to Manu. He did a respectable job for France and no more. Totally agree about Barrit though, he has grown and grown, making himself almost indispensible, excellent game.

[LondonTiger]

I am sorry but I don't see how tuilagi outshone Basteraud?

Basteraud 2 passes, 9 runs, 9m made, 0 clean breaks, 1 defender beaten, 4 tackles - 2 missed
Tuilagi 2 passes, 9 runs, 57m made, 2 clean breaks, 5 defenders beaten, 4 tackles - 0 missed.

[100%beefy]

Yes i agree Manu definitely outshone Basteraud, in fact he did what Basteraud wa son the pitch to do and although he had a decent game Manu was much more effective

[welshy6]

[quote="nathan"]

Couldn't find a player rating here, so without referring to the Telegraph, and from memory, and trying not to give 6-8 all round, my thoughts. Please edit:

1. Cole: Got beat at the scrum for once but good in the loose. His getting back on feet to hunt the turnover is great. 6
2. Hartley: Didn't help in the scrum or line out. Anonymous in the loose: 4
3. Marler: Anonymous. 4
4. Parling: Put in some good tackles and had a presence. But he's also meant to be running the linout. 5
5. Launchbury: Got around a lot and was a nuisance. 7
6. Lawes: Not a 6. Missed tackles, few carries. 3
7. Robshaw: Captain's performance, lots of carries, got everywhere. 8
8. Wood: Looked superb in the last quarter (perhaps taking heart from Tom Youngs), struggled when going back. 7
9. Youngs: A charge down, no breaks, otherwise fairly reliable but not a threat. 5
10. Farrell: Got flustered in open play, missed some kicks, but some good passes. Should probably have made/got a try when attempting kick to the corner. 5
11: Brown: Quiet first half, started to break tackles in the second half. Well placed (again) if tuilagi couldn't get to the line. 6
12: Barritt: Part of superb England line defence. Tackled everything. 8
13: Tuilagi: Looked menacing and completely outclassed his big opposite number. Superb pickup off ankles for his try. 8
14: Ashton: Chased well and some OK runs in centre, but tackling is not optional. 4
15: Goode: Safe and reliable but not threatening. 5

Subs:
Youngs: Phenomenal carrying and tackling. Probably higher work rate of anyone else (all be it for 30 minutes): 8
Vanipolu: Looked great carrying but needs to engage brain more - nearly got a second yellow card in a few matches. Needs more fitness if he wants to start: 6
Haskell: Stopped a tiring French backrow - looked good going forward: 7
Care: Looked dangerous and responsible for some quick phases in the last quarter: 7.
Flood: Again, looked dangerous and was threatening an interception: 7

Edit: Now looking at the DT, seems fairly similar - perhaps more generous on the under and average performers. Main point of difference is Parling, who leads the worst performing line out in the championship. Steve James says: "The line-out expert and showed notable energy throughout, showing up his opponents in this respect. 7". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9890318/Six-Nations-2013-England-v-France-player-ratings.html

I am sorry but I don't see how tuilagi outshone Basteraud? Barret was left to defend against Basteraud and he did, effectively, Bateraud is not just this big bash centre everyone thinks he is, if you notice his distribution was also pretty good, and he straightened and held the defence allowing Fofana the Space for his try. And he is also good at offloading in the tackle although wasn't as much evidence in this match due to England's generally good defence. Also while he looked menacing on occasion it was obvious what he was going to do each time, just run, and while he is extremely effective at this, his opposite number varied his game a lot more.
I cant help but think Tuilagi is overrated, While Barret is very underrated, who tackled everything, straightened the line and tried to beat the defence on the outside with a little step, compared to running into the opposite player like Tuilagi.

Did you watch the game?

Tuilagi ran past Basteraud on more than one occasion. So Basteraud didn't play as good as you think and Tuilagi did more than "running into the opposite player"[/quote]

I did watch the game, otherwise I wouldn't be commenting on it? its just my interpretation, as while Tuilagi is a good attacking threat with the ball in hand, he almost always runs with it and never kicks it, therefore you just need to smash him in the contact (obviously a lot easier said than done!!!) whereas in comparison Basteraud did run into contact a lot to generate quick ball, he did also distribute the ball and hold the defence, look at fofanas try, you can see the England defence hold for a second when they see basteraud with the ball, allowing fofana just that extra bit of room for him to work his magic.
Also in defence it was Barret who was meeting Basteraud and tackling him, not Tuilagi.

[Cyril]

Basteraud loses the ball in contact quite a lot and, because he likes an offload, his placement and body position is often wrong.

I really don't see the appeal.

Tuilagi far outshone him yesterday.

[nathan]

[quote="welshy6"]

Couldn't find a player rating here, so without referring to the Telegraph, and from memory, and trying not to give 6-8 all round, my thoughts. Please edit:

1. Cole: Got beat at the scrum for once but good in the loose. His getting back on feet to hunt the turnover is great. 6
2. Hartley: Didn't help in the scrum or line out. Anonymous in the loose: 4
3. Marler: Anonymous. 4
4. Parling: Put in some good tackles and had a presence. But he's also meant to be running the linout. 5
5. Launchbury: Got around a lot and was a nuisance. 7
6. Lawes: Not a 6. Missed tackles, few carries. 3
7. Robshaw: Captain's performance, lots of carries, got everywhere. 8
8. Wood: Looked superb in the last quarter (perhaps taking heart from Tom Youngs), struggled when going back. 7
9. Youngs: A charge down, no breaks, otherwise fairly reliable but not a threat. 5
10. Farrell: Got flustered in open play, missed some kicks, but some good passes. Should probably have made/got a try when attempting kick to the corner. 5
11: Brown: Quiet first half, started to break tackles in the second half. Well placed (again) if tuilagi couldn't get to the line. 6
12: Barritt: Part of superb England line defence. Tackled everything. 8
13: Tuilagi: Looked menacing and completely outclassed his big opposite number. Superb pickup off ankles for his try. 8
14: Ashton: Chased well and some OK runs in centre, but tackling is not optional. 4
15: Goode: Safe and reliable but not threatening. 5

Subs:
Youngs: Phenomenal carrying and tackling. Probably higher work rate of anyone else (all be it for 30 minutes): 8
Vanipolu: Looked great carrying but needs to engage brain more - nearly got a second yellow card in a few matches. Needs more fitness if he wants to start: 6
Haskell: Stopped a tiring French backrow - looked good going forward: 7
Care: Looked dangerous and responsible for some quick phases in the last quarter: 7.
Flood: Again, looked dangerous and was threatening an interception: 7

Edit: Now looking at the DT, seems fairly similar - perhaps more generous on the under and average performers. Main point of difference is Parling, who leads the worst performing line out in the championship. Steve James says: "The line-out expert and showed notable energy throughout, showing up his opponents in this respect. 7". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9890318/Six-Nations-2013-England-v-France-player-ratings.html

I am sorry but I don't see how tuilagi outshone Basteraud? Barret was left to defend against Basteraud and he did, effectively, Bateraud is not just this big bash centre everyone thinks he is, if you notice his distribution was also pretty good, and he straightened and held the defence allowing Fofana the Space for his try. And he is also good at offloading in the tackle although wasn't as much evidence in this match due to England's generally good defence. Also while he looked menacing on occasion it was obvious what he was going to do each time, just run, and while he is extremely effective at this, his opposite number varied his game a lot more.
I cant help but think Tuilagi is overrated, While Barret is very underrated, who tackled everything, straightened the line and tried to beat the defence on the outside with a little step, compared to running into the opposite player like Tuilagi.

Did you watch the game?

Tuilagi ran past Basteraud on more than one occasion. So Basteraud didn't play as good as you think and Tuilagi did more than "running into the opposite player"[/quote]

I did watch the game, otherwise I wouldn't be commenting on it? its just my interpretation, as while Tuilagi is a good attacking threat with the ball in hand, he almost always runs with it and never kicks it, therefore you just need to smash him in the contact (obviously a lot easier said than done!!!) whereas in comparison Basteraud did run into contact a lot to generate quick ball, he did also distribute the ball and hold the defence, look at fofanas try, you can see the England defence hold for a second when they see basteraud with the ball, allowing fofana just that extra bit of room for him to work his magic.
Also in defence it was Barret who was meeting Basteraud and tackling him, not Tuilagi.

So Manu gets marked down for not kicking enough yet Basteraud doesn't?

[LondonTiger]

Tuilagi clearly outshone Basteraud bot to a vast majority of posters and in the stats as I showed earlier. Oh and the pass that Bast gave to fofana was rubbish, it committed no defenders and deprived fofana of space. that try was down to Fofana excellence and England incompetence.

[fa0019]

Well everytime basteraud got the ball he was well taken care of. barritt in defence gets a lot of credit for that and he should certainly tour with the lions... For me a far better player currently then Roberts.

Tuilagi looked very dangerous in attack and certainly had basteraud's number. He always made ground, always broke the gain line and looked very dangerous... Nt bad for a man who has only recently come back after a month off injured.

[Alex_Germany]

I cant help but think Tuilagi is overrated, While Barret is very underrated, who tackled everything, straightened the line and tried to beat the defence on the outside with a little step, compared to running into the opposite player like Tuilagi.

If you read these boards, you'll note that Barritt is very highly rated. Stuart Lancaster agrees, and his opinion is somewhat important.

The difference between Tuilagi and Basteraud yesterday was that Tuilagi crossed the gain line, and broke Basteraud's tackles, sucking in other French defenders. Basteraud's good (about as good as Roberts). But yesterday and generally Tuilagi was better.

Lancaster's welcome problem is that Twelvetrees is also highly rated. 36 + Tuilagi is a dream combination, and credit to Barritt, he's not allowing it to be tested.

By the way, Farrell / Robshaw turned down one or two 53m penalty attempts. Would 36 have gone for those?

[welshy6]

ok Nathan fair point, sorry I don't want to be seen to having a go at tuilagi, as he is extremely effective at what he does and he is still young, and will have time to develop these skills, and if he does he will be world class.
However at this moment in time it was obvious pretty much every time he got the ball he would run. he was predictable.
ok yes Basteraud would run more times than not and his runs were not as effective (due to Barret's superb defence) he did pass it and was used as a dummy runner to hold the English defence.

London tiger yes Tuilagi looks better in the stats, but then take into account the try where he ran 40 metres it is a somewhat closer contest.

Please Like i said Tuilagi is effective at what he does, he however needs to develop a more rounded game to be a truly class player.
And look i have complimented an English player, in Barret (do you know how hard that is for a Welshman?!?!?!?!!!!!!!) who to me looked the more composed and class player

[Cyril]

I look forward to Tuilagi being 'effective at what he does' against Wales.

[LondonTiger]

Bast made the same number of passes as Manu - 2. While Manu scored the try he also had that break through the middle that Parra just stopped with the ankle tap that should have led to a try (when Farrell chipped over Ashton).

Yesterday Manu was better than Bast. Sure he needs to develop more but he is pretty damn good.

[100%beefy]

The teams will be largely the same as last year except for 2 huge exceptions on the Welsh side, Wales will be at home. If they win against Scotland I would say they have a look in but the momentum is very much with England

[welshy6]

I look forward to Tuilagi being 'effective at what he does' against Wales.

haha hopefully then we will have the chopper back! although as wales have shown against France and Italy it wont be easy getting through our defence! although I am sure Tuilagi will relish that. And I cant say I envy our players with try to stop him!!!

And ok LT, I cant disagree with the stats, it was just my impression on the game, I guess my bias is from seeing Basteraud play in some of the top 14 games where his offloading in the tackle is utilised a lot more, but I guess its down to the game plan of different coaches, and as with the French team nobody seems to have a clue!!!

anyway congrats England well won, the subs made a difference, don't slip up against Italy, us welsh (if we beat scotland) want to spoil the party!!

[Barney McGrew did it]

Two things creeping up in the cons column for England are
penalties
missed tackles
The last one is particularly worrying

[EnglishReign]

How much longer will Ashton keep that 14 shirt? Wade has just scored another beauty for Wasps, May has been at the heart of Gloucester's creative play post-injury and Varndell has been tearing it up all season.

[welshy6]

so what do you think will be the starting line up against Italy?
and how serious is Farrel's injury? he Is starting to show some real promise considering his age!

[stub]

I look forward to Tuilagi being 'effective at what he does' against Wales.

haha hopefully then we will have the chopper back! although as wales have shown against France and Italy it wont be easy getting through our defence! although I am sure Tuilagi will relish that. And I cant say I envy our players with try to stop him!!!

And ok LT, I cant disagree with the stats, it was just my impression on the game, I guess my bias is from seeing Basteraud play in some of the top 14 games where his offloading in the tackle is utilised a lot more, but I guess its down to the game plan of different coaches, and as with the French team nobody seems to have a clue!!!

anyway congrats England well won, the subs made a difference, don't slip up against Italy, us welsh (if we beat scotland) want to spoil the party!!

I agree - if England and Wales win their next matches then their game at the MS will be incredible. Couldn't really have scripted a better finale (from a Eng/Welsh point of view)

[mystiroakey]

stub the problem is if england have a 30 plus point difference..

to make it really worthy you welshies are gonna have to beat our pts difference and bring it down to 15 minimun!!


dont tell me the only motivation is gonna be to stop our GS!!!

[stub]

Hang on - I'm not Welsh! I think that the Welsh will be happy to deny a England GS even if England still win the 6N.

[mystiroakey]

Apoligies!!

well then if thats the case they dont need to beat scotland!

i have faith that the welsh will wanna try to win.

[stub]

Apoligies!!

well then if thats the case they dont need to beat scotland!

i have faith that the welsh will wanna try to win.

No problem! And yes you're right that even if they do lose to Scotland they will still have huge motivation to beat England in the MS. It will be an immense game regardless and I'm already looking forward to it.

[100%beefy]

Apoligies!!

well then if thats the case they dont need to beat scotland!

i have faith that the welsh will wanna try to win.

oh stroker, you've even got your own little welsh chip on your shoulder!

But you are right, Wales will do everything to stop the GS, England winning a 6 Nations Championship on PD by losing to Wales in the final game, could be said to be a pyrrhic victory

[mystiroakey]

nah i am being nice to ya horse"!!

[LondonTiger]

Does Manu have the biggest ears in rugby?

Apparently he had 19 stitches inserted to a cut left ear, which was ripped following a collision with Picamoles.

19 stitches in an ear, how do you fit them in - unless it has fallen off?

[mystiroakey]

manu big ears!

[100%beefy]

Does Manu have the biggest ears in rugby?

Apparently he had 19 stitches inserted to a cut left ear, which was ripped following a collision with Picamoles.

19 stitches in an ear, how do you fit them in - unless it has fallen off?

ithink it did get ripped off

[kingjohn7]

England have pretty much won the championship now, they will not lose to Italy at home. If Wales manage to beat Scotland(which I not optimistic about), then I think they will be just as motivated to beat Eng regardless of not being able to win the championship(but maybe get it for Ireland?)
In the situations where 2 teams end up with the same points at the top of the table, do people think that the team that won their head to head should be crowned champions?
Congrats England yesterday, thought you were very impressive. Even though they werent playing that well they always looked in control(to me). Hope this doesnt signal a return to the form of a decade ago

[100%beefy]

England have pretty much won the championship now, they will not lose to Italy at home. If Wales manage to beat Scotland(which I not optimistic about), then I think they will be just as motivated to beat Eng regardless of not being able to win the championship(but maybe get it for Ireland?)
In the situations where 2 teams end up with the same points at the top of the table, do people think that the team that won their head to head should be crowned champions?
Congrats England yesterday, thought you were very impressive. Even though they werent playing that well they always looked in control(to me). Hope this doesnt signal a return to the form of a decade ago

Crazy statement
1. The English have form for losing the last game, if RWC form is relevant so is that, and no slam in 10 years
2. Wales will have a tough game v Scotland but they are back in confidence mode with a strong bench...I think they will win
3. They will be hugely motivated to win the England game for various reasons but not least because they love to beat them in Cardiff
4. Head to head winner shoudl take the honours
5. Congratulations England but this tourney is far from over

[wales606]

England have pretty much won the championship now, they will not lose to Italy at home. If Wales manage to beat Scotland(which I not optimistic about), then I think they will be just as motivated to beat Eng regardless of not being able to win the championship(but maybe get it for Ireland?)
In the situations where 2 teams end up with the same points at the top of the table, do people think that the team that won their head to head should be crowned champions?
Congrats England yesterday, thought you were very impressive. Even though they werent playing that well they always looked in control(to me). Hope this doesnt signal a return to the form of a decade ago

Crazy statement
1. The English have form for losing the last game, if RWC form is relevant so is that, and no slam in 10 years
2. Wales will have a tough game v Scotland but they are back in confidence mode with a strong bench...I think they will win
3. They will be hugely motivated to win the England game for various reasons but not least because they love to beat them in Cardiff
4. Head to head winner shoudl take the honours
5. Congratulations England but this tourney is far from over

It is points difference over head-to-head isn't it?

[Cyril]

1. England will win the tournament now
2. We really do need to beat Wales on the final day or this forum will be alive with mischief

[100%beefy]

yes it is PD but who would want to win the 6 Nations losing in the final game, losing the GS and winning by default. Ouch.

and yes Cyril, in that event it could be a mess on here

[kingjohn7]

Crazy statement
1. The English have form for losing the last game, if RWC form is relevant so is that, and no slam in 10 years
2. Wales will have a tough game v Scotland but they are back in confidence mode with a strong bench...I think they will win
3. They will be hugely motivated to win the England game for various reasons but not least because they love to beat them in Cardiff
4. Head to head winner shoudl take the honours
5. Congratulations England but this tourney is far from over

1. I mean the 'form' of grinding a win even when not playing that well, and playing as a team better than most other sides.The England side of start of century were a great side even though they lost multiple last games of 6 nations.
2. OK, just said im not optimistic, havnt seen Wales play well since semi final v France. Not saying they cant win.
3. Agree plenty of reasons to be motivated, but this should be case every game.
4. Agree
5. Maybe not but but I doubt a bookie would even take a bet on Eng not winning the championship.

[Cyril]

yes it is PD but who would want to win the 6 Nations losing in the final game, losing the GS and winning by default. Ouch.

and yes Cyril, in that event it could be a mess on here

No one wants to lose the slam on the final day. I've seen it happen often enough to England.

Imagine the mess if England lose to Italy, Wales beat Scotland and then England beat Wales.

Ireland sneak up on the outside by stuffing France in Paris (after beating Scotland) and winning on PD.

[wales606]

yes it is PD but who would want to win the 6 Nations losing in the final game, losing the GS and winning by default. Ouch.

and yes Cyril, in that event it could be a mess on here

No one wants to lose the slam on the final day. I've seen it happen often enough to England.

Imagine the mess if England lose to Italy, Wales beat Scotland and then England beat Wales.

Ireland sneak up on the outside by stuffing France in Paris (after beating Scotland) and winning on PD.

Replace Ireland with Scotland, then it would be a miracle looking at the PD. You would need Scotland to beat Wales, and Italy + Wales to beat England (with Scotland winning in Paris)

[Alex_Germany]

so what do you think will be the starting line up against Italy?
and how serious is Farrel's injury? he Is starting to show some real promise considering his age!

I guess a new thread will be up soon ...

- Hopefully Morgan will be back, then we can have Wood at 6 and Morgan at 8.
- I was thinking we need a real winger on the left wing, but now I think we need one more on the right. Monye or Wade in for Ashton or Brown (who would go to FB for Goode).
- Same centres, but give 36 a good 30 minutes with Manu
- Tom Youngs to start

If Farrell is injured and Burns back, no problem. If they're both injured, I'd play Flood at 10 and put Goode on the bench (not the one at Worcester)

[yappysnap]

Does anyone else get tired of seeing Farrel constantly trying to get involved in fights? He just looks a bit silly and if he did get himself carded it could seriously hinder us.

[100%beefy]

Does anyone else get tired of seeing Farrel constantly trying to get involved in fights? He just looks a bit silly and if he did get himself carded it could seriously hinder us.

? seen no evidence of this, ashton yes but not farrell

[AlastairW]

Does anyone else get tired of seeing Farrel constantly trying to get involved in fights? He just looks a bit silly and if he did get himself carded it could seriously hinder us.

I get the impression he was out to WUM the French into doing something stupid. He failed. That or the best defence is a good offence, knowing the French would hit him hard.

Either way, didn't work. I noticed he stopped it after a little while and just got on with the game, which was best for all concerned I think

[Hound_of_Harrow]

Should Wales beat Scotland, no matter what happens with England v Italy, then the Triple Crown will also be up for grabs in Cardiff.

Scotland v Wales is an intrigueing one though, with Ireland having already beaten Wales at the MS and Scotland beatiing Ireland.

But logic flies out of the window in this competition; which is why most of us love it.

[yappysnap]

I do wish that there wasn't this second rest week. I get it's a tough tournament but that's why we have 30 man squads, all this second rest week means is that players lose momentum from one week to the next and the squad gets mucked about as some go back to their clubs and some stay with the team.

One rest week and the coaches then have to decide if they use their full squad or rely on the starting 15 for each game would be far more intriguing. IMO the level of rugby would be better as well, rather then starting with a bang and then dribbling away.

[bluestonevedder]

Just thought I'd give my two cents on the game.

1) Lawes is not a 6. His performance was woeful in my opinion. He missed far too many tackles, looks lightweight, and his carrying was no where. He's a lock, and at current, I think is best left to being an impact sub. Our entire team performed much better when he was replaced by Haskell. Our breakdown presence was far superior, and Haskell doesn't miss his tackles.

2) Wood and Robshaw are simply sublime. Both of them have engines that simply do not quit. Robshaw hit every ruck and tackled everthing. Wood is our tenacious operator. His tackling is very good, and he's always eager to carry. Both of them are indispensable at the moment in my opinion. Wood has to play 6.

3) Our scrum has a few issues. Are we starting to suffer because of our lightweight locks?

4) Ashton has completely lost his mojo. He's working tirelessly and goes looking for work, but frequently loses the ball in contact because he's almost trying too hard. His defence is some of the worst I've seen from an international winger. If Wade and Varndell aren't selected because of their defence, why is Ashton the exception? Contrary to what a lot of people on here seem to be saying, I don't think Ashton was in the wrong at the end of the game. Huget had been trying to wind up England's players all day, and credit to Ashton, he just walked away.

5) Our bench is very strong. Tom Youngs was a revelation off the bench. His carrying is second to none, and his counter rucking so aggressive. He provided us with a good platform to attack from, and we missed a big ball carrier on the day.

6) Louis Picamoles is the best No.8 in the Northern Hemisphere. What an oustanding player. He really showed England what they were missing from their pack. A real handful, and would have been my vote for MoM.

[bluestonevedder]

Does anyone else get tired of seeing Farrel constantly trying to get involved in fights? He just looks a bit silly and if he did get himself carded it could seriously hinder us.

I get the impression he was out to WUM the French into doing something stupid. He failed. That or the best defence is a good offence, knowing the French would hit him hard.

Either way, didn't work. I noticed he stopped it after a little while and just got on with the game, which was best for all concerned I think

I'm not sure he was trying to WUM. The French were very public about the fact they would try and attack Farrell. I think he was just maintaining a little bite to his game, almost letting the French know he wasn't going to be bullied easily. Fair enough though, he got a little carried away at times.

[beshocked]

Just thought I'd give my two cents on the game.

1) Lawes is not a 6. His performance was woeful in my opinion. He missed far too many tackles, looks lightweight, and his carrying was no where. He's a lock, and at current, I think is best left to being an impact sub. Our entire team performed much better when he was replaced by Haskell. Our breakdown presence was far superior, and Haskell doesn't miss his tackles.

2) Wood and Robshaw are simply sublime. Both of them have engines that simply do not quit. Robshaw hit every ruck and tackled everthing. Wood is our tenacious operator. His tackling is very good, and he's always eager to carry. Both of them are indispensable at the moment in my opinion. Wood has to play 6.

3) Our scrum has a few issues. Are we starting to suffer because of our lightweight locks?

4) Ashton has completely lost his mojo. He's working tirelessly and goes looking for work, but frequently loses the ball in contact because he's almost trying too hard. His defence is some of the worst I've seen from an international winger. If Wade and Varndell aren't selected because of their defence, why is Ashton the exception? Contrary to what a lot of people on here seem to be saying, I don't think Ashton was in the wrong at the end of the game. Huget had been trying to wind up England's players all day, and credit to Ashton, he just walked away.

5) Our bench is very strong. Tom Youngs was a revelation off the bench. His carrying is second to none, and his counter rucking so aggressive. He provided us with a good platform to attack from, and we missed a big ball carrier on the day.

6) Louis Picamoles is the best No.8 in the Northern Hemisphere. What an oustanding player. He really showed England what they were missing from their pack. A real handful, and would have been my vote for MoM.

Bluestonevedder. I always like your posts. Agree on basically on all of that.

Ashton for me is the biggest disappointment. Sort out your bloody defence! Need to send him back to Saracens and get Paul Gustard to help him with his defence.

In regards to the scrum. I think Domingo and Mas are two very tough operators. Don't think the locks can take the blame for Marler and Cole being unable to cope.

Was it just me who thought Vunipola made a decent impact?

[Sponsored content]