Brian Odriscoll! !

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Does this years 6ns show that Odriscoll should retire from international rugby? and not even think about going on the Lions tour?

Dont get me wrong he has been a great ambassador for the game, his try scoring has been great when he is.has been on form one of the best player's of the game.

But today showed if any thing age, has finaly cought up with him. He and Ronan Ogara should both retire straight after the 6n from international rugby.

Do you agree or disagree?

SecretFly wrote:I'd leave Jackson in too... but Madigan on the bench.

+1

Sunday was the perfect example of what is wrong with with Declan Kidneys reign post Grand Slam. It was the pinnacle for some real Irish rugby legends but instead of finding and blooding the next generation, 4 years later we still rely on so many to do a job.

In too many positions there are players who should be ready to step in but there arent as they havnt been given game time. Ireland have some great fly halfs right now at provincial level but until Sunday we had Sexton the only one with real experience at test level going forward. When O'Driscoll goes what happens? Earls has been tried there but hasnt made the position his, Darren Cave has been continually ignored by Kidney and players like Trimble or Bowe havnt been tried there. At 9 Murrays part of the problem but wheres the alternatives? Marshall has been overlooked, Reddan is 32 and Marmion who seems like a prospect isnt near the squad

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:BOD was Ireland's best player by a distance on Sunday - he is probably the most intelligent rugby player I have had the privilege to watch. A true phenomenon

He may have been the most intelligent rugby player on the pitch on Sunday, but he hasn't got the legs to execute his rugby intellegience.

I bet your bottom dollar that Ashton would have been right on Earls' outside shoulder to take that much discussed failed pass/offload from Earls.

Can anyone recall O'Driscoll making a linebreak or beating a defender in recent times?

Sin é wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:BOD was Ireland's best player by a distance on Sunday - he is probably the most intelligent rugby player I have had the privilege to watch. A true phenomenon

He may have been the most intelligent rugby player on the pitch on Sunday, but he hasn't got the legs to execute his rugby intellegience.

I bet your bottom dollar that Ashton would have been right on Earls' outside shoulder to take that much discussed failed pass/offload from Earls.

Can anyone recall O'Driscoll making a linebreak or beating a defender in recent times?

Sin Earls had no intention of passing he backed himself to beat Hogg then got cornered and had nowhere to go, he had most of the width of the pitch to his right and room to work with but he choose the wrong option

marty2086 wrote:Sunday was the perfect example of what is wrong with with Declan Kidneys reign post Grand Slam. It was the pinnacle for some real Irish rugby legends but instead of finding and blooding the next generation, 4 years later we still rely on so many to do a job.

In too many positions there are players who should be ready to step in but there arent as they havnt been given game time. Ireland have some great fly halfs right now at provincial level but until Sunday we had Sexton the only one with real experience at test level going forward. When O'Driscoll goes what happens? Earls has been tried there but hasnt made the position his, Darren Cave has been continually ignored by Kidney and players like Trimble or Bowe havnt been tried there. At 9 Murrays part of the problem but wheres the alternatives? Marshall has been overlooked, Reddan is 32 and Marmion who seems like a prospect isnt near the squad

When Earls gets a run in one position he does fine (i.e., one of the better players last 6Ns when for the first time ever he got 4 games in a row in the one position).

Cave hasn't got the pace (and he hasn't been ignored as he was on the tour to Canada 4 years ago - McFadden has been preferred since). There are limited opportunities to try anyone out anyway because Brian O'Driscoll usually starts there as he was the captain. Marshall is overlooked by Ulster, there is no reason to believe anything other than that he is a 20 minute player at the end of a match (and then not in the big games for Ulster).

I really don't know how it is possible to have had Jackson, Marshall & Marmion in the squad sooner since they were only making their way through U20s and B+I cup teams. Interesting that it was Hanrahan & Marmion pairing in the U20s (6Ns last year, with Jackson preferred with Luke McGrath). Marmion only came to prominence in South Africa.

Then of course, up to last year's 6Ns, Sexton & Murray had never started a game together!

Sin é wrote:

Can anyone recall O'Driscoll making a linebreak or beating a defender in recent times?

He's kinda busy doing the forward's work for them ..

...Plus..... this might have gone over across your reasoning bow, Sin...but he's an 'old' man. Bones creaking after years of impact. He's not a Tuilagi or an Ashton. He's on the way to retirement. And he is STILL the best 13 we have - bar none. That's the fact.

That says nothing about his creaky bones and lack of pace...and it says everything about how much stepping up the alternatives have to do to push him out, to replace him. That's their job. Do his job and his job is then their job. But none of them can. They'll do the breaks but they won't assist in the many departments he lends a hand in. So, when people say he's no longer the best 13 - well that might be true in a Lion's setting (not my concern)...but he's the best Ireland have...still. That point shames someone...but not him.

marty2086 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:BOD was Ireland's best player by a distance on Sunday - he is probably the most intelligent rugby player I have had the privilege to watch. A true phenomenon

He may have been the most intelligent rugby player on the pitch on Sunday, but he hasn't got the legs to execute his rugby intellegience.

I bet your bottom dollar that Ashton would have been right on Earls' outside shoulder to take that much discussed failed pass/offload from Earls.

Can anyone recall O'Driscoll making a linebreak or beating a defender in recent times?

Sin Earls had no intention of passing he backed himself to beat Hogg then got cornered and had nowhere to go, he had most of the width of the pitch to his right and room to work with but he choose the wrong option

He also had 2 Scottish defenders in that space. And bearing in mind BOD's lack of pace, would he have expected him to be anywhere close. If you listen to any of the commentators about why D'Arcy & BOD are preferred together - most of it has to do with they know instinctively at this stage of their careers what each other is going to do and where they are going to be.

Sin é wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Sunday was the perfect example of what is wrong with with Declan Kidneys reign post Grand Slam. It was the pinnacle for some real Irish rugby legends but instead of finding and blooding the next generation, 4 years later we still rely on so many to do a job.

In too many positions there are players who should be ready to step in but there arent as they havnt been given game time. Ireland have some great fly halfs right now at provincial level but until Sunday we had Sexton the only one with real experience at test level going forward. When O'Driscoll goes what happens? Earls has been tried there but hasnt made the position his, Darren Cave has been continually ignored by Kidney and players like Trimble or Bowe havnt been tried there. At 9 Murrays part of the problem but wheres the alternatives? Marshall has been overlooked, Reddan is 32 and Marmion who seems like a prospect isnt near the squad

When Earls gets a run in one position he does fine (i.e., one of the better players last 6Ns when for the first time ever he got 4 games in a row in the one position).

Cave hasn't got the pace (and he hasn't been ignored as he was on the tour to Canada 4 years ago - McFadden has been preferred since). There are limited opportunities to try anyone out anyway because Brian O'Driscoll usually starts there as he was the captain. Marshall is overlooked by Ulster, there is no reason to believe anything other than that he is a 20 minute player at the end of a match (and then not in the big games for Ulster).

I really don't know how it is possible to have had Jackson, Marshall & Marmion in the squad sooner since they were only making their way through U20s and B+I cup teams. Interesting that it was Hanrahan & Marmion pairing in the U20s (6Ns last year, with Jackson preferred with Luke McGrath). Marmion only came to prominence in South Africa.

Then of course, up to last year's 6Ns, Sexton & Murray had never started a game together!

I actually intended to say for one reason or another Earls hasnt made it his own but thats why, between injury and being shifted about he cant get to grow his game and show what he can do.
Cave isnt the same player he was four years ago, he may not have blistering pace but he runs some great lines and gets up in support of line breaks which is something that is needed in the team right now.

Keatley played on the same tour as Cave 4 years ago and hasnt been back in since, Madigan really stood up last season and wasnt brought in and then when the moment came Kidney threw the youngest and least experienced available fly half to the wolves. It shouldnt have come to that. My point isnt that Jacksom Marshall or Marmion should have been in but there wasnt a back up in place and only when his hand is forced are the younger players playing

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Can anyone recall O'Driscoll making a linebreak or beating a defender in recent times?

He's kinda busy doing the forward's work for them ..

...Plus..... this might have gone over across your reasoning bow, Sin...but he's an 'old' man. Bones creaking after years of impact. He's not a Tuilagi or an Ashton. He's on the way to retirement. And he is STILL the best 13 we have - bar none. That's the fact.

That says nothing about his creaky bones and lack of pace...and it says everything about how much stepping up the alternatives have to do to push him out, to replace him. That's their job. Do his job and his job is then their job. But none of them can. They'll do the breaks but they won't assist in the many departments he lends a hand in. So, when people say he's no longer the best 13 - well that might be true in a Lion's setting (not my concern)...but he's the best Ireland have...still. That point shames someone...but not him.

All BOD's errors are ignored though. No one mentioned the awful pass he gave to Gilroy just before that Earls break - or the failed pass to Earls 5m out. Earls would have been slaughtered for those two.

Then he gets all the plaudits for a great pass to Zebo. Zebo deserves as much praise for his timing for that pass. If that was Luke Fitz, he would have ended in a lineout because Luke would have over run it.

As for BOD doing the forwards work for them - that just makes it even harder for the backs because they are short a back for attack - no wonder Ireland can win all this possession. Ireland could do with less possession and use their attack more effectively. Having BOD at the bottom of a ruck is of no use to Ireland's attack.

And the short range try attempt that came off against Wales failed miserably in Murrayfield. But, it is a long pitch...

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Can anyone recall O'Driscoll making a linebreak or beating a defender in recent times?

He's kinda busy doing the forward's work for them ..

...Plus..... this might have gone over across your reasoning bow, Sin...but he's an 'old' man. Bones creaking after years of impact. He's not a Tuilagi or an Ashton. He's on the way to retirement. And he is STILL the best 13 we have - bar none. That's the fact.

That says nothing about his creaky bones and lack of pace...and it says everything about how much stepping up the alternatives have to do to push him out, to replace him. That's their job. Do his job and his job is then their job. But none of them can. They'll do the breaks but they won't assist in the many departments he lends a hand in. So, when people say he's no longer the best 13 - well that might be true in a Lion's setting (not my concern)...but he's the best Ireland have...still. That point shames someone...but not him.

All BOD's errors are ignored though. No one mentioned the awful pass he gave to Gilroy just before that Earls break - or the failed pass to Earls 5m out. Earls would have been slaughtered for those two.

Then he gets all the plaudits for a great pass to Zebo. Zebo deserves as much praise for his timing for that pass. If that was Luke Fitz, he would have ended in a lineout because Luke would have over run it.

As for BOD doing the forwards work for them - that just makes it even harder for the backs because they are short a back for attack - no wonder Ireland can win all this possession. Ireland could do with less possession and use their attack more effectively. Having BOD at the bottom of a ruck is of no use to Ireland's attack.

Zebo gets praise when he does great work. Earls would have had a great day of praise altogether had he given his hard work and sheer class (the break) to someone in a better position to finish. He would have got all the credit for that try, even though he wasn't the one scoring. That - is - the - difference.
O'Driscoll knew he'd share in some of the kudos for Zebos try...but his brain was working on scoring the try in the first place. The try is the beautiful thing and it you've done the bulk of the work (and Earls had) he'd get the bulk of the praise for the try. But he wasn't seeing that. And that needs a calm head to say I've done some fantastic work there now (and he had) let's try to make it count. I don't think he sees merit in assists, I don't think he sees the creation of the try as the thing that gets the praise. He's a real genuine try scorer, with the temperament to go with it. Shane Williams always wanted the whole show too - the creation of and the touchdown. But it's a very hit and miss attitude. And you need pretty good kickers in a team to substitute for missed opportunities

On 'BOD' as people like to call him and I don't .................... just which BOD are you on about BTW? The one who was already getting told in the press and amongst fans that his best days were behind him in the years before 2009 (one of his very best vintage years)?
Are you talking about the player who got told he was too fat to be effective, that his hair was the wrong colour to be a serious player, that he spent too much time with Dublin Socialite models when he should be concentrating on his failing game. There have been many years when O'Driscoll has gotten it in the neck..and often rightly so. Earls and Zebo and Gilroy and the rest of them are on the way up (they'll pick up the criticisms because people hope they'll learn from the mistakes) O'Driscoll is on the way down and has forgotten the 12 or 13 filing cabinets of mistakes he's made in the past. He doesn't need to know about them now or in the future, he's not going to be in a position to improve his game any more than it was at his peak. He's winding down, the younger ones are winding up - focus is on them.

SecretFly wrote:
Zebo gets praise when he does great work. Earls would have had a great day of praise altogether had he given his hard work and sheer class (the break) to someone in a better position to finish. He would have got all the credit for that try, even though he wasn't the one scoring. That - is - the - difference.

Thats the point - no one was in a better position to finish (unlike for Zebo's try and for the try early in the game that Brian O'Driscoll failed to even attempt to pass to Earls who is rated as a very good finisher. Paddy Wallace was berated for not making a pass to Earls a few years ago and he wasn't in as good a position as Earls was this time.

O'Driscoll knew he'd share in some of the kudos for Zebos try...but his brain was working on scoring the try in the first place. The try is the beautiful thing and it you've done the bulk of the work (and Earls had) he'd get the bulk of the praise for the try. But he wasn't seeing that. And that needs a calm head to say I've done some fantastic work there now (and he had) let's try to make it count. I don't think he sees merit in assists, I don't think he sees the creation of the try as the thing that gets the praise. He's a real genuine try scorer, with the temperament to go with it. Shane Williams always wanted the whole show too - the creation of and the touchdown. But it's a very hit and miss attitude. And you need pretty good kickers in a team to substitute for missed opportunities

This is nothing to do with what O'Driscoll thought he was going to share - its about the Irish media going into raptures about the O'Driscoll pass being great (which it was) but Zebo's timing to receive it was even better than the pass.

On 'BOD' as people like to call him and I don't .................... just which BOD are you on about BTW? The one who was already getting told in the press and amongst fans that his best days were behind him in the years before 2009 (one of his very best vintage years)?

Are you talking about the player who got told he was too fat to be effective, that his hair was the wrong colour to be a serious player, that he spent too much time with Dublin Socialite models when he should be concentrating on his failing game. There have been many years when O'Driscoll has gotten it in the neck..and often rightly so.

He was grossly overweight. Not his fault, but his fitness people. I don't think anyone had any real problems with him dyeing his hair and yes he did spend too much time being used by socialite models. Your wan Glenda was (and still is) awful. While more famous in her own right than Glenda, Amy is a class act and I have never heard any criticism of them as a couple.

Earls and Zebo and Gilroy and the rest of them are on the way up (they'll pick up the criticisms because people hope they'll learn from the mistakes) O'Driscoll is on the way down and has forgotten the 12 or 13 filing cabinets of mistakes he's made in the past. He doesn't need to know about them now or in the future, he's not going to be in a position to improve his game any more than it was at his peak. He's winding down, the younger ones are winding up - focus is on them.

I can't see Zebo getting too much criticism (he doesn't have to live up to anyone), but I think the criticism of Earls is just way over the top. He gets criticised for stuff that O'Driscoll does on a regular basis but doesn't seem to attract any criticism whatsoever.

Also interesting now - Tony Ward calling for BOD to be reinstated as captain!

from reading through these posts there really is alot of rubbish being spoken.

BOD is still our best player at 13.

Earls yes should have passed to BOD (as should BOD to earls 5 min in SinE) but at the end of the day it was the fault of these two players that ireland lost.

Earls should in my opinion be applauded for the smashing break that he made as i dont think we have too many players that have this ability. BOD too should be applaud for running an excellent support line.

i think somehting that needs to be looked at is irelands support play when we make a break. Ireland made 4 major line breaks in the game, 2 from Marshall, one from earls and one from O'brien. for all 4 of these line breaks we only had 2 players running supporting lines.

Had NZ or Aus made a break like this how many players would be their to support the line breaker

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:from reading through these posts there really is alot of rubbish being spoken.

BOD is still our best player at 13.

Earls yes should have passed to BOD (as should BOD to earls 5 min in SinE) but at the end of the day it was the fault of these two players that ireland lost.

Earls should in my opinion be applauded for the smashing break that he made as i dont think we have too many players that have this ability. BOD too should be applaud for running an excellent support line.

i think somehting that needs to be looked at is irelands support play when we make a break. Ireland made 4 major line breaks in the game, 2 from Marshall, one from earls and one from O'brien. for all 4 of these line breaks we only had 2 players running supporting lines.

Had NZ or Aus made a break like this how many players would be their to support the line breaker

This is why I think Cave deserves a shot, he may not have the pace but he gets up in support of other players and creates some good openings himself

SecretFly wrote:You don't know Dublin4 World Cup... it's the culchies like Kearney, Reddan and Ross that aren't one of the boys. O'Driscoll is amongst his own.

I feel I need google translate on here sometimes. What's a "culchy"? I seem to remember you telling me all about village pumps on the old 606, gotta love language!

World Cup a culchie is a yokel. Now don't ask me what that is.

A culchie is a guy who soils good Dublin department stores with cowshyte boots.............

Sin, not going to reply to all of that other than to say at last you're agreeing with me. O'Driscoll got his media hounding when he was a young thing, Earls and others will continue to get theirs now. AND...O'Driscoll will still get his put downs even today as you've just proved in pointing out his glory hunting. So all is fair in love and war.
The eagle eyes will continue to be on Earls and crew because they represent promise - we don't want them wasting it and we very much need them not to, given where our form is at present..