Munster v Ospreys

4th plays 6th in the only top 6 game of the weekend.

Can Munster salvage a bit of pride at home, or will the Ospreys end of season juggernaut start rolling?

Munster genuinely dont seem to give a fig about the league this year and its very sad to see.

I believe we have a squad capable of beating anyone in the league but you get what you deserve in life and we're in 6th place for a reason.

Expecting to see something along the lines of:

01 Dave Kilcoyne
02 Mike Sherry
03 BJ Botha
04 Ian Nagle
05 Billy Holland
06 CJ Stander
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 James Coughlan
09 Duncan Williams
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Johne Murphy
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Denis Hurley
15 Felix Jones

16 Damien Varley
17 Wian du Preez
18 Stephen Archer
19 Dave Foley
20 Paddy Butler
21 Cathal Sheridan
22 Ian Keatley
23 Ivan Dineen

That's a strong team. Hoping you can take the Os out of it.

A/ Because I always support Munster v non Irish unless it was going to badly affect Leinster.

B/ Because it's bad for both the league and Irish rugby if they continue to slide.

and

C/ Cause I want the Os out of the playoffs. (for selfish reasons)

It might be a strong team on paper. We basically had that exact team against a depleted Treviso team last week. Not alone did we lose but we conceded four tries. Scarlets have done the double over us. We literally (and I mean literally) went through the motions against Cardiff Blues earlier in season, losing at home to them.

It reminds me a lot of Edinburgh last year in that we are willing to put up with this once we are in Europe.

I really want the Anglo/French proposals to come in and bring the fear of losing into the Rabo.

Munster remind me a lot of England around 2006-2009. They are a decent team with a load of players all around the same ability but very few truly inspiring players. A few good wins in the right competitions are masking the problems but really things are not good enough.

Penney is getting a really bad doing from Munster fans but I believe that things can come good.

We have a good young squad and have pretty good depth.

It is a shame this game is spoil t by having the best players not available due to international duty. I suspect the Ospreys will miss out of the play off's but if the do get 4th I take them to win it again.

I actually think that looks a weak team. Williams and O'Gara must be one of the worst half back combinations in the league. Not much pace in that backline either

So Munster announce a better than expected team and make a number of changes.

01 Dave Kilcoyne
02 Damien Varley
03 Stephen Archer
04 Ian Nagle
05 Billy Holland
06 Paddy Butler
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 James Coughlan
09 Cathal Sheridan
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Denis Hurley
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Doug Howlett
15 Felix Jones

16 Mike Sherry
17 Wian du Preez
18 BJ Botha
19 Dave Foley
20 Sean Dougall
21 Duncan Williams
22 Ian Keatley
23 Ivan Dineen

Ospreys are supposedly missing 28 men for various reasons, however they do have AWJ back. I think the Ospreys should win this, just down to how frail Munster have seemed in the pack (jesus who would have though I would even say that) recently.

That said this is really a do or die as far as the league and play-off chase goes, so maybe Munster will put it out the back.

I think the time has come for Munster to look at signing a foreign second row.

I can't remember us having a foreign second row in the last 15 years as we have had the likes of Mick Galwey, Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha Ryan.

But the boiler room isnt strong enough with Ryan a guaranteed Irish international, O'Connell being so injury prone and O'Callaghan on the downward slope.

The good news is Williams is finally dropped. Big opportunity for Cathal Sheridan. Big test and opportunity for Stephen Archer. The Ospreys scrum is usually good.

ROG starting is crippling. Its a big handicap for Munster especially with the centers failing to fire this season.

red_stag wrote:I think the time has come for Munster to look at signing a foreign second row.

I can't remember us having a foreign second row in the last 15 years as we have had the likes of Mick Galwey, Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha Ryan.

But the boiler room isnt strong enough with Ryan a guaranteed Irish international, O'Connell being so injury prone and O'Callaghan on the downward slope.

There are loads in the academy. Brian Hayes for one, Phil Donnellan and Dave O'Callaghan can play there also.

What about Ed O' Donoghue? He's on now with the Reds and has played really well. The commentators have been praising him quite a lot during the match

He wasn't good with Leinstsr but seems to have improved a lot.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:What about Ed O' Donoghue? He's on now with the Reds and has played really well. The commentators have been praising him quite a lot during the match

He wasn't good with Leinstsr but seems to have improved a lot.

He was never capped by Ireland though he was included in our grand slam squad. I assume he qualifies for Australia?

He was capped for Ireland A

LeinsterFan4life wrote:He was capped for Ireland A

That doesnt count though does it?

I think it does?

GunsGerms wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:He was capped for Ireland A

That doesnt count though does it?

The nations declared second tier side does count providing they have played against another nations second tier side.

Also bench warming counts, as Duncan Bell was inelegible for Wales, as he once sat on the bench for the Saxons.

profitius wrote:The good news is Williams is finally dropped. Big opportunity for Cathal Sheridan. Big test and opportunity for Stephen Archer. The Ospreys scrum is usually good.

ROG starting is crippling. Its a big handicap for Munster especially with the centers failing to fire this season.

red_stag wrote:I think the time has come for Munster to look at signing a foreign second row.

I can't remember us having a foreign second row in the last 15 years as we have had the likes of Mick Galwey, Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha Ryan.

But the boiler room isnt strong enough with Ryan a guaranteed Irish international, O'Connell being so injury prone and O'Callaghan on the downward slope.

There are loads in the academy. Brian Hayes for one, Phil Donnellan and Dave O'Callaghan can play there also.

These guys are great prospects but we need a here and now option.

Donnacha O'Callaghan isn't of required level. He turns 34 in three weeks. Paul O'Connell is 33 years old and has been almost consistently injured for the last 18 months. Donnacha Ryan is looking good but I would rather us get BJ Botha go and bring in a second row for two years.

Supposedly the Ospreys side is

15 Richard Fussell
14 Tom Habberfield
13 Jonathan Spratt
12 Ashley Beck
11 Tom Isaacs
10 Matthew Morgan
9 Kahn Fotuali'i

1 Duncan Jones
2 Scott Baldwin
3 Cai Griffiths
4 Alun Wyn Jones (Capt)
5 Lloyd Peers
6 James King
7 Sam Lewis
8 Jonathan Thomas

REPLACEMENTS
16 Matthew Dwyer
17 Marc Thomas
18 Dmitri Arhip
19 Ian Gough
20 Dan Baker
21 Arthur Ellis/Sam Davies
22 Rhys Webb
23 Tom Grabham

Not a bad side at all. Weak bench though compared with ours.

I'd like to think we have enough in the tank to win this.

Ian Keatley must be quite frustrated at this stage.

GunsGerms wrote:Ian Keatley must be quite frustrated at this stage.

I dont think he would be that annoyed to be honest.

He has 16 appearances in the RaboDirect Pro 12 this year (starting 12 of them).

He has also played in 5 our of 6 games in Europe (starting 3 of them).

I would be confident that he will start ahead of O'Gara in the Heineken Cup quarter finals against Quins.

I admire your patience. If I was a Munster fan I would be absolutely furious that your playoff challenge was going down the pan because the IRFU insisted on having O'Gara play

In a meritocracy, Keatley would be getting the gametime he needs to prepare him to steer Munster through a tricky quarter-final away from home as well as push for a playoff spot.

I suspect the Ospreys fancy this one to keep them in the hunt for the play offs. Not sure AWJ will play more than 60mins as he will play next week against Scotland.

It should be interesting to see how Munster react. They held a meeting during the week about their poor run of form.

Notch, we just have to accept ROG's selection. Kidney wants him played so thats that. If he is picked to play against Quins Connor O'Shea will throw a party.

I don't think the IRFU has any call on Heineken Cup selections- that would be Penneys choice.

Anyway, a draw is a pox on both house. Playoff race is splitting into three races- the race for first and the race for fourth.

Hi all,

Have to say a very enjoyable game. Good intensity and a good advert for the Pro 12.

A few bullet points on my thoughts from the game and in Munster moving forward:

- It was very well reffed. Kudos to Nigel Owens.

- Our young props are developing nicely. I would not be adverse to Munster replacing BJ Botha with a big name second row (an area we are lacking IMO).

- ROG played his best game in a long time. Still not of the standards he once had but I was very worried about how he would do. Kicked well into corners, from tee and made a vareity of other kicks such as chips.

- Although Laulala has taken a lot of criticism this year I think if paired with the right 12 he could still bring something to the table.

- Cathal Sheridan was excellent considering it was his first ever start. I dont think Stringer or Murray would have contributed much more. He managed tempo well and did not take a step before passing.

- O'Garas post game reaction to Duncan Williams (refusing to shake his hand and then having a go at him for his performance) was disgraceful.

- That back three of Felix Jones, Doug Howlett and Denis Hurley could well be second choice next year. Not enough pace in the wings at all and very nearly cost us a try.

- Although he is public enemy #1 for many Munster fans I believe in Rob Penneys vision for Munster. We need time and to weed out the players who cannot implement it.

Hello all,

Just a quick question as a Quins fan. How are Munster getting on this season? And if they are struggling in the Rabo is that because they're focussed on Europe?

Some of it is, we're playing a well past it O'Gara continuously and nobody is quite sure why (personally I think it's because Deccie still wants him involved because with the way Penney wants to play it makes no sense to play him)


We lack creativity with ROG there and our pack while good will not dominate anyone. Penney's style will take time to do well, but it is achievable with some personnell changes.

Yappysnap,

It is very much a mixed bag. We have had a few issues:

- Second Row. With Paul O'Connell injured, Mick O'Driscoll retired and Donnacha Ryan and Donnacha O'Callaghan involved with Ireland we are scraping the bottom on the barrel. A weak boiler room has weakened our set piece IMO and made us less effective.

- Scrumhalf. Peter Stringer has gone to Bath on loan. Conor Murray is away with Ireland. That means we have played Duncan Williams a lot this year. It is no exaggeration to say he is the weakest Munster player I have ever seen. The emergence of Cathal Sheridan should hopefully continue.

- Flyhalf. As Thomond has said it is believed that Kidney has insisted on O'Gara being first choice. That being said the popular choice Ian Keatley has got good game time and will hopefully play against Quins.

- Centres. We do not have a settled centre pairing. It appears to involve some combination of Casey Laulala, Keith Earls and James Downey.

However overall I actually feel quite good about our team moving forward. I think that if we replace Doug Howlett or BJ Botha with a big name second row we will be doing well. We are developing places nicely in some good positions and our team is still very young and will hopefully be together for many years to come. Would like us to be looking at the following type of team against Quins:

01 Dave Kilcoyne
02 Mike Sherry
03 BJ Botha
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Donnacha O'Callaghan
06 Peter O'Mahony
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 James Coughlan
09 Conor Murray
10 Ian Keatley
11 Keith Earls
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Doug Howlett
15 Felix Jones

16 Damien Varley
17 Wian du Preez
18 Stephen Archer
19 Paul O'Connell
20 CJ Stander
21 Cathal Sheridan
22 Ronan O'Gara
23 Denis Hurley

(Simon Zebo to miss out due to injury). Although Quins would have to be favourites I believe we are capable of winning that game.

Munster's Penney experiment is going...*hand waving over and back on the wrist".... It's hard to rate it other than to say that it's first year and an awful lot of work is still needed to make it all look like a coordinated plan in development. I think Penney probably felt it would all be knitting together a lot earlier than where it is now but I think he's also being pragmatic now and actually believes what he talked about in the beginning. It'll take time.

Forwards will need to improve handling/running skills if they're going to be flung out onto the wings for mismatches... there has to be an awful lot more wise and productive offloading to stop that see-sawing impotency that goes on in the phases...and much more tactical (as distinct from individual instinct) creativity in finding those elusive gaps in the middle of sturdy defences.

But I do hope and believe in the idea that Penney will use his first year as a good platform for improvements in his second. But it does require a lot of work still... a lot of work.

The commentators were discussing this at length yesterday and were making the point that while the forwards are able to get involved in backline moves (Kilcoyne, Sherry, Coughlan and O'Donnell in particular) that for total rugby to work the backs need to be able to clear out rucks and this is an area we are falling down.

There is one small flaw to Penneys total rugby attempt.

Until Munster and Itreland instill an ifrastructure in which junior Irish players are produced consistantly with very high all round skills the total rugby attempt will be beatable.

Total rugby is a myth to every nation but NZ, we are all big enough, strong enough, fast enough and as fit as anyone else, but the junior structure in the UK and Ireland is fundamentally flawed.

Munster will never become consistant enough to win HC's with Penneys vision, and at best will have the odd super performance where opposing teams don't adapt to the analysis performed in time.

thebluesmancometh wrote:There is one small flaw to Penneys total rugby attempt.

Until Munster and Itreland instill an ifrastructure in which junior Irish players are produced consistantly with very high all round skills the total rugby attempt will be beatable.

Total rugby is a myth to every nation but NZ, we are all big enough, strong enough, fast enough and as fit as anyone else, but the junior structure in the UK and Ireland is fundamentally flawed.

Munster will never become consistant enough to win HC's with Penneys vision, and at best will have the odd super performance where opposing teams don't adapt to the analysis performed in time.

Em, Leinster proved they can do it on a consistent basis...I mean on a consistent basis with teeth as in the power and beauty performance plus result basis. It's tough to sustain it, yes, especially in the year's we've been having here in the Northwest of Europe with our virtually constant raining climate in the last half decade.... but it is doable with good coaching bringing the promise out. You can't do a blessed thing until you try...and when you try, you can often surprise yourself and unearth the few guys who never knew they could.

There is nothing - nothing - exceptional about NZ rugby only the structure and philosophy they bring to it. The structures will eventually evolve; and evolution is the word as nobody suggests or expects Munster to be a different beast in only a season or two - but if the philosophy is there, if the desire is to mimic the best practices rather than to constantly try to develop a counter-gameplan that might stall 'total rugby' then that is half the battle.

Munster will never win another HC in the way they won their Noughties ones...time moves on and circumstances rather than even desire forces your hand and demands that you move with it. A team that has had such a successful period under one style of rugby will always find it difficult to move on but move on they must - and will.

To be fair i can't see why the total rugby style is unachievable. Most modern forwards know how to pass etc, and undestand running lines etc. And most modern backs know the importance of jackling or throwing themselves into rucks or maules when needed.

Also I can still see 10 man rugby having it's place especially against teams that blitz or teams that throw everyone into rucks looking for the turnover.

SecretFly wrote:Munster's Penney experiment is going...*hand waving over and back on the wrist".... It's hard to rate it other than to say that it's first year and an awful lot of work is still needed to make it all look like a coordinated plan in development. I think Penney probably felt it would all be knitting together a lot earlier than where it is now but I think he's also being pragmatic now and actually believes what he talked about in the beginning. It'll take time.

I don't think so - he said at the beginning that it was going to take more than his 2 year contract.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Munster's Penney experiment is going...*hand waving over and back on the wrist".... It's hard to rate it other than to say that it's first year and an awful lot of work is still needed to make it all look like a coordinated plan in development. I think Penney probably felt it would all be knitting together a lot earlier than where it is now but I think he's also being pragmatic now and actually believes what he talked about in the beginning. It'll take time.

I don't think so - he said at the beginning that it was going to take more than his 2 year contract.

Hi Sin. My point was I think he was more entusiastic about the changes that could be brought about than his more cautious public utterances admitted to back then. I think there is a sense that he started out trying to push the changes quickly enough and they were hitting and missing more than he probably predicted. So now he's back on track with his own public pronouncements - he truly does now believe it's a longer haul. That's my reading of it anyway, and I alluded to the fact that he never did say it was going to pay dividends immediately - no realistic coach would.

This game was an improvement on Munsters recent form. The Ospreys have a strong squad and even with half a dozen Welsh Internationals missing can field a strong 15.

Also with Nigel Owens as ref, he is usually worth between 5 and 10 points to the Ospreys. I am not suggesting he is biased but as he trains with the Ospreys at Llandarcy, he is too close to the players to be disinterested in the outcome.

Nigel Owens is one bloody good ref. I have nothing but respect for him.... he entertains as he works too. As he's telling the packs what he wants from the scrums - yet again - he also picks up on some continuing subtle body language going on between the scrumhalves. Without breaking breath "And you two [quit the messing]". A mike on Nigel is half the game's entertainment value.

SecretFly wrote:Nigel Owens is one bloody good ref. I have nothing but respect for him.... he entertains as he works too. As he's telling the packs what he wants from the scrums - yet again - he also picks up on some continuing subtle body language going on between the scrumhalves. Without breaking breath "And you two [quit the messing]". A mike on Nigel is half the game's entertainment value.

No argument from me, certainly one of the best refs in the game today. He just seems to have a problem being totally objective when refing the Ospreys and I suspect its because he is too close to the players. An example was the truck and trailer leading up to the Ospreys try. Nigel said the ball carrier was in the front, but the TV pictures clearly show him move to the back before the Munster defenders engage. This was clearly a training ground move and one which Nigel got wrong.

An enjoyable game refed well.

The way Penney wants to play is possible but it's going to take a few years. Firstly he needs to get in the players he needs because the current squad is not his. The Munster skill levels are well behind NZ teams but the backline against the Ospreys were missing Zebo Keatley LOD and Hanrahan.

Speaking of total rugby the Welsh grand slam team under Ruddock played some great rugby to win that competition.

red_stag wrote:The commentators were discussing this at length yesterday and were making the point that while the forwards are able to get involved in backline moves (Kilcoyne, Sherry, Coughlan and O'Donnell in particular) that for total rugby to work the backs need to be able to clear out rucks and this is an area we are falling down.

The main problem I see is backs not being able to hold,catch and pass the ball. Howlett is 36 now and has no pace anymore. The slowest winger in the rabo league award has to go to Dennis Hurley. He was aweful last night. The two centers look like they've never met and ROG at 10 is crippling for Munster. He can't run, kicks away possession and is very easyto defend against.

Duncan Williams' passing was a disgrace. The man simply doesn't have anywhere near the level of talent for professional rugby. He is 27 now and still playing professional rugby which is amazing.

profitius wrote:

The main problem I see is backs not being able to hold,catch and pass the ball. Howlett is 36 now and has no pace anymore. The slowest winger in the rabo league award has to go to Dennis Hurley. He was aweful last night. The two centers look like they've never met and ROG at 10 is crippling for Munster. He can't run, kicks away possession and is very easyto defend against.

Duncan Williams' passing was a disgrace. The man simply doesn't have anywhere near the level of talent for professional rugby. He is 27 now and still playing professional rugby which is amazing.

Howlett is 34, not 36.

Good to see that all we need to do is drop ROG & Williams and keep playing Downey & Laulala.