Scotland vs Wales: Match Thread

[bsando]

SCOTLAND vs WALES

Venue: Murrayfield
Date: 9/3/13
Kick-off: 14:30
TV coverage: BBC One
Weather Forecast: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/edinburgh#?tab=fiveDay&fcTime=1362787200
Ref: Craig Joubert

SCOTLAND
1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Harley
7. Brown
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Lamont
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Bench: 16. Hall 17. Low 18. Cross 19. Kelock 20. Wilson 21. Prygos 22. Jackson 23. Evans

WALES
1. James
2. Hibbard
3. A. Jones
4. A. W. Jones
5. Evans
6. R. Jones
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Owens 17. Andrew 18. Mitchell 19. Coombs 20. Tipuric 21. L. Williams 22. Hook 23. S. Williams

[RubyGuby]

We're not visiting, we're coming to blow your house down (Again)

[bedfordwelsh]

Depending on what teams are actually picked theres potentially some good match ups to look forward to.

Murray being back is big boost and I think we need James to start.

The 2nd and back row battles are really interesting, Scotland have a great pairing and am big fans of both. Evans has had a really good tournament despite his limited gametime and if AWJ starts thats what most would have as our first choice (not me).

2 of the killer Bs are back so thats going to be a great match up as well.

Theres always the whose better argument Visser or North or Cuthbert etc.

Hogg and Halfpenny have been the form XVs so far.

[RubyGuby]

This is a tight 50/50 game with a resurgent Scotland and a slowly gathering momentum welsh team. I think we have to try and start well as if the Scots get amongst us early they could get a lot of momentum and we will have a tough day at the office. I think Wales will be strong in the last 20 minutes with more quality off the bench than the Scots; however we need to be still in the game come that time. First 20 mins are important as well for both teams who remain fragile from a confidence perspective and an early score would put some doubt and anxiety into the other team - Good luck to both sides

[Luckless Pedestrian]

To get us in the spirit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qgytaTDGeg

[RuggerRadge2611]

My team for the Welshies coming up :

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Cross (did more than enough to keep his place IMO)
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Brown [C]
7. Barclay
8. Beattie

9. Laidlaw
10. Jackson
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Welsh
17. MacArthur
18. Lowe
19. Kellock
20. Harley
21. Pyrgos
22. Weir
23. S. Lamont

If Wales start Tipuric, we'll need Barclay. Brown has scored the most Turnovers in the 6N and is the clear tackle leader by 9 tackles. He has made a whopping 49 tackles and only missed 3.

I reckon the Ireland game showed why we need Barcs or Rennie back, we got mullered at the breakdown again. As many posters have said if we give Wales so much possesion and quick ball losing is almost a certainty.

We need to compete at the breakdown and to do that we need a specialist 7. Its's harsh on Harley who has done nothing wrong and has been a potent weapon in the lineout but we can afford to surrender possesion like we did to the Irish.

Key for this game is how Brown, Beattie & Scott manage Roberts. Jamie for me is the unsung hero of the Welsh backline crashing the ball up very effectively and generating momentum. We need to make sure 1st up tackles nail him before or on the gain line.

Our forwards put in a monumental defensive shift against the Irish and the bulk of the missed tackles were in the backs, it's a worrying trend since the Welsh are most dangerous IMO from 10-15. We need to nail these 1 on 1 tackles or it'll be a very tough day at the office.

[RubyGuby]

I know the Scots will disagree with me but I feel they are weak in defence from 9, 10, 12 and 13 and this is where we have a lot of power and pace

[RuggerRadge2611]

It's not that I disagree with that comment ruby, because I would say we CAN be. That doesn't neccesarily mean we ARE weak in that area.

I could just as easily say that Wales are weak in defence in the back row. They AREN'T, but they CAN be.

Look at the Ireland game vs. Wales in the opener. POM, Heaslip, Healy, Ryan, O'Brien all ran absolute riot up front. It looked like your pack were a bit shell shocked. Sure the bulk of the tries came out wide in the form of Zebo, BOD and a Zebo Break that set up Healy but your pack just weren't at the races for the 1st 40 in that game.

All the Irish momentum came from thos big ball carriers in the pack. They tried that with Scotland and got nowhere and when the Irish backs had chances they blew them time and time again.

Basicly what I'm trying to say is Wales seem to have a weakness in the Forwards and Scotland seem to have a weakness in the backs.

It also transpires that those are probably the 2 areas of greatest strength on either side, the Scottish pack and the Welsh backs.

It'll be a Fascinating contest.

[RubyGuby]

The Irish first half was all about confidence; Wales managed by Howley just carried on where they left off in the AI's - it was the worse 40 minutes of welsh rugby I've seen against a very average Irish team. I wouldn't look to that game to see weaknesses. They have not conceded a try since and we have changed 50% of our forwards since that game which makes it even more irrelevant

[bedfordwelsh]

Cant argue with that rugger, our 1st half against Ireland was shockingly poor at best.

Thats why even if Jenkins is fit I think we have to start James at L/Head and our 2nd and back row will have to hit the ground running.

If they start like they did against Ireland then their opposite numbers will have a field day.

[Captain_Sensible]

@Ruby

You have played the two weakest sides in the tourney since then, mind you.

I think our midfield defence has a problem with movement and pace/trickery. That’s what caused the problems vs Ireland. Wales don’t really have that type of player (Marshall, Earls, BOD,) in their midfield or back three. Your power in that could still cause us big problems though.

[RubyGuby]

Captain - I think that is the mistake a lot of people make in thinking that the welsh backs are just BIG - Jamie aside the others have plenty of pace and guile and can rip defences apart if the opportunity presents - I feel they will now be unleashed more as confidence is growing and I think under Scot Johnson Scotland will try to throw the ball out and play into welsh hands - I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[RuggerRadge2611]

@Ruby

You have played the two weakest sides in the tourney since then, mind you.

I think our midfield defence has a problem with movement and pace/trickery. That’s what caused the problems vs Ireland. Wales don’t really have that type of player (Marshall, Earls, BOD,) in their midfield or back three. Your power in that could still cause us big problems though.

+1

See if you were to ditch Phillips for Williams and Biggar for Hook I would be concerned. Wales will be a stern test but I feel Ireland would have been a tougher test since they have already beaten you guys and are doing much better in the League and the HC.

The Scottish backs deal with bish bash bosh centres better than the guile and flair that Marshall, Jackson and BOD were counjouring.

[bedfordwelsh]

Rugger,

If we had made those changes then I would be travelling to Murrayfield in fear rather than with hope in my heart.

Williams isn't a patch on Phillips and Hook is that good after 69 caps he still hasn't managed to tie down a starting slot.

[RubyGuby]

Rugger,

If we had made those changes then I would be travelling to Murrayfield in fear rather than with hope in my heart.

Williams isn't a patch on Phillips and Hook is that good after 69 caps he still hasn't managed to tie down a starting slot.

+2

[tigertattie]

If wales try to bosh it up the middle by hitting 9,10,12 and 13 then I say bring it.

Laidlaw, Jacko, Scott and Shlong are all good defensivly. Add to that you will have Brown and Harley floating in that area and we will mow down any welsh runners all day long.

Wales should be looking to hit us out wide

[bedfordwelsh]

Roberts is all about bish bosh I admit and Wales need to learn how to utilise him more as a decoy.

JD hasn't hit his top form since returning from injury but I do think he has more to his game than bish bosh.

I still think our back 5 in the pack need to be on top of their game against the Scottish counterparts.

[NeilyBroon]

My team would probably be:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Cross (agree that he's done enough to keep his place)
4. Gray
5. Hamilton (never been his biggest fan but he has earned his place)
6. Brown
7. Barclay (I actually feel bad for dropping Harley but we need an openside)
8. Beattie

9. Laidlaw
10. Jackson (only just, Weir is breathing down his neck though, he needs a strong first half performance otherwise he should be subbed off early)

11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar (Shlong as a impact sub)
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Bench
16. McArthur (Hall was fairly mediocre against Ireland and this lad deserves his chance)
17. Welsh
18. Low
19. Kellock
20. Harley
21. Pyrgos
22. Weir
23. Lamont

[NeilyBroon]

also definitely becoming a big fan of this guy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21621203

[RubyGuby]

Most of these scottish players have played against Wales - They will know what to expect and I'm sure they will be motiavted by the fact that they are (i) at home, (ii) have lost the last 9/10 against Wales and (iii) are odds on at the bookies to lose this one.

They bookies also made Ireland favourites against them and we know what happened there. Thankfully Ruby tipped Scotland to win that one

[tigertattie]

The thing with Roberts is that teams have found out how to negate him.

Now before the Welsh lads start going mental at me, I say Roberts is a good player at what he does. But he has limitations.

Roberts tucks the ball under his arm and heads in a straight line towards the try line. In modern rugby the tackler will try to wrap up the runner to prevent the offload. This often involves hitting the runner high. Now if you hit Roberts high, he shrugs you off and keeps going, and this is why he was so effective in, say, the lions tour. At international level he rarely offloads. In recent years the tackler knows he is not going to offload, they know they don’t need to try take him high. They go for his legs and pull the big fella down
If wales use him to crash up all the time then teams will just soak this up. Lucky for wales though they have J Davies who is more apt at running a line and stepping off from one side to the other. If they can get Roberts to offload or use JD more effectively then you will see a more fearsome attack form wales.

[NeilyBroon]

Most of these scottish players have played against Wales - They will know what to expect and I'm sure they will be motiavted by the fact that they are (i) at home, (ii) have lost the last 9/10 against Wales and (iii) are odds on at the bookies to lose this one.

They bookies also made Ireland favourites against them and we know what happened there. Thankfully Ruby tipped Scotland to win that one

I'm sure they will be motivated Ruby!

I'd like to see Scotland secure more possession. When playing with confidence (which they will have gained from the last 2 games) they should be potent with ball in hand. I'm excited to see our backs doing some nice simple play well.

I think 9/10 times in this scenario is irrelevant, and if Scotland get posession it'll be like Wales v Scotland was back when we gave you guys a fright at Cardiff except we win. I think Phil Godman single-handedly lost us that match. Truly was snatching defeat from the jaws of victory there!

[RDW]

As has been said Scottish backs are poor against opposition who aren’t necessarily the biggest but come with a step, pace and guile (NZ, Ireland, Australia etc) but do pretty well against the big backlines that go for power – (SA, England etc).

Wales are definitely more of the latter, but in JD2 and 1/2P they have got players that can run riot if we defend like we did against Ireland.

[Solid8]

also definitely becoming a big fan of this guy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21621203

So am I. The Kiwi's loss is definitely our gain!

[RubyGuby]

Jamie takes in 3-4 defenders, we then need to recycle and go throught the phases - Patience is our strength unlike Ireland - The best defence will win this game and I tend to think that's ours

[tigertattie]

I think it is going to come down to kicks at goal

And we have the highest percentage kicker in the tournament

[RuggerRadge2611]

Jamie takes in 3-4 defenders, we then need to recycle and go throught the phases - Patience is our strength unlike Ireland - The best defence will win this game and I tend to think that's ours

Despite paying out tries like a broken bandit to Ireland in the 6N opener? As another poster pointed out since then you have played the bottom 2 teams in the 6N, Italy without Parisse and France who have been all 6N.

I think your defence when under pressure may still crack. You certainly haven't been tested since the Ireland game.

[RubyGuby]

Rugger - I see you're conveniently forgetting your 20 point loss to England, the 21 pt turnaround at home to Italy as a consequence of 2 breakaways and an interception and the fact that Ireland had 80% posession against you. As I have said earlier, if you are judging Wales by that first half v Ireland you will be in for a surprise. We were pretty average in beating Italy by 17 points away. Scotland were eulogising the 2nd coming after winning by 20 at home. May the best team win but the welsh team v Ireland will not be playing Scotland and keeping France tryless in Paris is no mean feat no matter how much you disparage them - you should try it

[RuggerRadge2611]

This is what annoys me bout this place.

We Scottish fans very rarely have reason for cheer. History shows us we are wooden spoon contenders with Italy in the 6N. Fair enough.

However after stringing some good results and performances together we still are seen as a "speed bump" by many Welsh fans on the route to beating England at the Millenium stadium. I have read on another thread that this is seen by a "banker" match for Wales, assuming victory will be easy.

Posters on here in the past have commented on our inclusion in the 6N stating we bring nothing to the 6N and Georgia or Portugal are more worthy of inclusion than us.

Despite giving the English a good game at Twickenham (lets see how Wales got on before dismissing our performance) comfortably beating Italy and grinding our a gritty win against Ireland I still feel our team are not really getting the respect they have earned over the past few weeks.

Welsh fans seem to think that they will come to Murrayfield and win by 10 points against the team that just defeated Ireland. The team that beat Wales by 8 points in your own back yard.

It's baffling.

[RubyGuby]

What's baffling Rugger is your failure to see that most welsh posters see this as a 5//50 game - One that Wales could lose quite easily irrespective of past results. You're anger and frustration is at the fact that many are not giving you the recognition you feel you deserve. You are happy to critically appraise the welsh performances whilst having a slightly one eyed view of your own. Scotland have a decent team and can win a week tomorrow but some welsh fans estimating that their team will win by 10 points is hardly based on irrational thinking. As I have already said, the welsh pack has 4 changes to the one that played an average Irish team, that aside that first half performance against Ireland was Howleyesque to say the least. Winning away in Italy and France is nothing to be trivialised, you of all nations should know that. The game remains a 50/50 and you have a decent team, thats' about it though. Just acccept it, I'm sure many scots would agree with me, maybe that would be easier for you to swallow. Good luck a week on Saturday - I will be in Hawick

[RDW]

I just don’t understand why people on here spend so much time trying to pick apart other nations wins and discredit them – at the end of the day, in 10 years time it will be known that Scotland at least beat Italy and Ireland, and Wales beat Italy and France. This isn’t a dig at any nations in specific – we all do it on here.

If this 6N has taught us anything, it is that we have no clue how the game will pan out!

[RubyGuby]

[quote="RDW_Scotland"]I just don’t understand why people on here spend so much time trying to pick apart other nations wins and discredit them – at the end of the day, in 10 years time it will be known that Scotland at least beat Italy and Ireland, and Wales beat Italy and France. This isn’t a dig at any nations in specific – we all do it on here.

If this 6N has taught us anything, it is that we have no clue how the game will pan out!

/quote]

RDW - the reason we come on here is to pick these things apart and discuss and agree and disagree with them - The key is not to be offended by others views unless they are being plainly obnoxious or silly - I don't see that on this thread. There's always room for banter of course and I know exactly where Radge is coming from having been in the doldrums with Wales in the past - The game remains a 50/50 and I actually enjoy our disagreements - they should be respected and not just frowned upon -

[RuggerRadge2611]

Wales are dangerous. I have said it many times! I have even refused from commenting on who I think will win. I cannot call this game, however on some threads I have seen rediculous things like Wales will rip Scotland apart and win by 10+ points, and your trip north being described as a "banker". It's mental!

I'm not having a go at you Ruby, you are a Knowlegeable poster. It is a bit disheartening to see 2 really good performances by Scotland be almost ignored or discredited.

Wales' preformances in the 6N by contrast are poorer than Scotland's. That comment should be taken in perspective. Wales' very high standards of rugby in particluar in last years tournament, are a far cry from the performances this year. It is clear for all to see that this Welsh team is weaker and Scotland are stronger than last year.

[RubyGuby]

C'mon Rugger - Scotland have not produced "2 really good performances" have they. And someone estimating a 10 point win for Wales can hardly be considered as ripping Scotland apart. Those fans are just as positive about Wales as you and some fellow scots are about Scotland - that's a good thing - there's no harm in that. Don't be fooled by us talking about the english game either as everything is on this one. Those enthusiatic fans talking about a 10 point win probably look at the last 10 matches - again no harm in that. In fact they probably have more of a basis for being more optimistic than some of your lads when we look at the performances, however, irrespective of the past it remains a 50/50 game and in all honesty i think everyone knows that.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Put it another way Ruby, had Scotland given Ireland so much ball last year they would have probably put 50 points on us. As it stands this year with our defence really tightening up they could only muster 8.

As for Scotland against Italy, we scored 4 tries, from 4 different backs. Compared to last year where we were destroyed by Italy.

These were good Scottish performances, when taken in perspective, like the current Wales performences are poor when taken in perspective.

Us fans north of the border are totally unacustomed to backs scoring tries. We have scored more tries in the 1st 2 matches than we did in the whole 6N last year or our combined totals in 2009 & 2010!

These are important factors that will have a massive psychological impact on the players, coaches and fans.

For years we were a joke in the 6N, a laughing stock, 15 buffoons trying to play rugby. A lot less people are laughing now.

[NeilyBroon]

Well I'll say this again.

This game will very much depend on possession retention.

I said it against Ireland and I was screaming at the screen for most of that game purely because I though we were in for a drubbing but we got lucky and well that's that! I think a lot of us have over-exaggerated the quality of Scotland in that game, maybe a 6/10 just because they got the win!

If Scotland can keep possession and put it through the phases in the Welsh half from the set piece. I can't see past a Scotland victory. If we play like we did against Ireland, I can't see past a Welsh one. Like Ruby said it's very 50/50, Wales may not have been blowing on full cylinders but realistically, neither have Scotland. This is a Scotland side with a greater mixture of new and old, whereas Wales have mostly experienced players. I'm not expecting any miracles, but I hope Scotland play a lot better than they did against Ireland because lightning doesn't strike twice, as they say!

I at least hope Joubert is better than Barnes.

[RubyGuby]

Like I said, I tipped you to beat Ireland but I don't think anyone has ever laughed at Scotland - Even under Andy robinson I felt you were not far away at all and you should have beaten both England and Wales on more than 1 occasion over the past few years. Scotland are on the cusp of being consistent and perhaps a win over Wales will define that. They do however need to be patient and I'm getting the impression from some fans that a defeat against Wales would spell disaster. It wouldn't, the foundations are there and given time and good coaching these players can gel and become more consistent. This year is already an improvement and there is room for cautious optimism going into the future

[100%beefy]

I think Wales will look to target Visser who often looks uncertain in possession unless coming onto the ball. Clearly he is a try scorer but I have doubts over his defence and decision making

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I have those same doubts over Cuthbert, and North to a lesser extent. I'd be kicking in behind both of them.

[100%beefy]

Agree Cuthbert has comedy hands but North, less concerned. But i do expect a lot of kicking from Scotland as they will aim to defend as far up the pitch as possible and force errors while also hoping to snaffle Welsh lineout, so i also expect a lot of clearance kicking from Wales...basically a lot of kicking all round

[Tattie Scones RRN]

What's baffling Rugger is your failure to see that most welsh posters see this as a 5//50 game - One that Wales could lose quite easily irrespective of past results. You're anger and frustration is at the fact that many are not giving you the recognition you feel you deserve. You are happy to critically appraise the welsh performances whilst having a slightly one eyed view of your own. Scotland have a decent team and can win a week tomorrow but some welsh fans estimating that their team will win by 10 points is hardly based on irrational thinking. As I have already said, the welsh pack has 4 changes to the one that played an average Irish team, that aside that first half performance against Ireland was Howleyesque to say the least. Winning away in Italy and France is nothing to be trivialised, you of all nations should know that. The game remains a 50/50 and you have a decent team, thats' about it though. Just acccept it, I'm sure many scots would agree with me, maybe that would be easier for you to swallow. Good luck a week on Saturday - I will be in Hawick

Ha ha Ruby you do make me laugh.

How many times exactly, in the last week, have you mentioned Wales winning the last 9/10 encounters???

I personally hope Scotland absolutely pump Wales to hopefully rid the board of certain eejits for a week or so....present company excluded of course.

Enjoy Hawick Ruby (I lived there for 3 years). Where are you staying and are you playing the Quins or anybody whilst up?

[RubyGuby]

That made me laugh Tattie - Anyways next year I'd be back with 9/11 and that still seems ok. (unles you're american of course)

[Guest]

Scotland winning won't rid the board of anybody. A wum is still a wum. Personally, I hope the Welsh win, so the sensitive Scots don't get all "I told you so"

[RuggerRadge2611]

Scotland winning won't rid the board of anybody. A wum is still a wum. Personally, I hope the Welsh win, so the sensitive Scots don't get all "I told you so"

It's not a case of being sensitive or told you so. It's just for so long Scotland have been tagged with this "dark horse" status and for years the players have let themselves and the fans down.

For the first time in my Adult life my national team are winning games we would otherise get pumped in. It's a welcome change for us!!

Let us have our moments in the sun! We don't get many of them!

[NeilyBroon]

Scotland winning won't rid the board of anybody. A wum is still a wum. Personally, I hope the Welsh win, so the sensitive Scots don't get all "I told you so"

How dare you! I'm not sensitive!

[RubyGuby]

I don't blxxdy believe it, just walked into M&S in Truro to pick up my pasta and sushi and there's a fecking scottish piper blaring out on the square. I'm sure Radge has put him up to this. Now that made me laugh when I heard it.

[Heuer27]

Talk of Scotland being weak in midfield are not exactly accurate if you are looking at the Ireland game in isolation.
I have mentioned this on other threads but Ross Ford was culpable for both SOB(I think) and Earl's breaks missing both tackles badly. He also did particularly poorly stopping the try .
Two things here 1) what was he doing trying to defend Lamonts 13 channel and 2) I expect him and Lamont to try and make amends for these particularly poor errors because if they dont and continue this way others can and will take their place. Big games from both players next week or they don't deserve to play the final match.

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

I have a funny notion Ford won't start. He was at fault for those two breaks and was hauled ashore fairly sharpish in the 2nd half... McArthur had another great game for Glasgow last week and I think if he has another stormer this week, he might just get the nod to step up...

[RDW]

I have a funny notion Ford won't start. He was at fault for those two breaks and was hauled ashore fairly sharpish in the 2nd half... McArthur had another great game for Glasgow last week and I think if he has another stormer this week, he might just get the nod to step up...

He had a massive gash on his face.

(Stop that sniggering)

[Heuer27]

Agreed watched MacArthur last week and he played well prob what we need for the break down almost like a third flanker. If Dunbar and Horne play well they might even squeeze into the squad to put pressure on Lamont cause Evans isn't.
Going to the match tonight so hopeful see these guys step up again.

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