Scotland vs Wales: Match Thread

[bsando]

First topic message reminder :

SCOTLAND vs WALES

Venue: Murrayfield
Date: 9/3/13
Kick-off: 14:30
TV coverage: BBC One
Weather Forecast: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/edinburgh#?tab=fiveDay&fcTime=1362787200
Ref: Craig Joubert

SCOTLAND
1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Harley
7. Brown
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Lamont
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Bench: 16. Hall 17. Low 18. Cross 19. Kelock 20. Wilson 21. Prygos 22. Jackson 23. Evans

WALES
1. James
2. Hibbard
3. A. Jones
4. A. W. Jones
5. Evans
6. R. Jones
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Owens 17. Andrew 18. Mitchell 19. Coombs 20. Tipuric 21. L. Williams 22. Hook 23. S. Williams

[RuggerRadge2611]

I didn't say he merited his place, but why does Lamont merit his as a starting international 13? Ultimately, I think the sharper back 3 and better support play in general would suit Evans' natural game. He's played in Scotland teams in the past that have never run on is shoulder when he makes a half break - he therefore gets labeled as a headless chicken who gets turned over. The difference between genius and insanity is measured only by success I guess.

Lamont isn't the best centre we have available either IMO. He is lucky to be there. I would have started Dunbar or Horne and had Lamont on the bench.

[Captain_Sensible]

My problem with Evans is that he can’t defend, especially at 13. His positioning is poor, his commitment is patchy and he gets run over quite a lot by bigger players. Unfortunately, we’re just an injury away from putting him in there vs Wales.

Dunbar is a superb defender, a big lump and a pretty clever footballer. He’s also played at wing from time to time, as well as covering the two centre positions. I would much rather that he was on the bench rather than Evans, or even starting at 13 with Slamont on the bench.

[funnyExiledScot]

In terms of tackling, probably, but not in terms of preventing quick ball. Barclay is less physical but smarter at the rucks.

On the tackling front, we have plenty of good tacklers. Beattie is excellent, as is Richie Gray. Even Euan Murray has lifted his tackling stats hugely.

I just think Barclay would bring better balance. As with Jackson vs Weir though, I don't think there's a huge amount in it. We're a long way from White at 5, Hines at 6 or Parks at 10....

Very much looking forward to this contest, should be a cracker.

[Manky-Flanker]

Case in point, have a look at this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUJ9Gg7dgjg

Had that happened in a Scotland match in the past, there would have been little or no support play arriving in time (as a Scotland supporter that has been one of the worst things to witness year in year out). Max's pass wouldn't have been caught or would have been intercepted, and he gets the blame for trying to be creative. However, when it works here, its lauded as skill.

[funnyExiledScot]

There is some truth in this point. Like De Luca he was often criticised for his performances when in truth no centre in the history of rugby could have made much of the stuff that Parks and Morrison were churning out, and with Nathan Hines at 6, and Lamont, Danielli and Walker on the wings, there was very little for either NDL or Evans to work with.

Having said that, I've seen him play a couple of times for Castres and I've seen nothing. He's also to my knowledge played most of his rugby in the last couple of years out on the wing, not at centre. Dunbar has been excellent, and for the positive reasons in selecting Dunbar, I'd rather he were on the bench.

SJ is clearly focusing on form, thus the decision to go with Weir and talk about Heathcote. That's why I think the Max Evans decision isn't correct. He isn't on form, and I don't think he's as versatile as SJ thinks.

[beshocked]

Exactly FunnyexiledScot

I think the Killer Bs would bring better balance to the Scotland backrow.

In terms of tackling vs Ireland Brown made 15 tackles missed 0.

Tackling wasn't the problem. It was lack of possession and territory.

Brown,Barclay and Beattie have worked effectively as an unit.

Barclay is a proper 7, Brown's best position is 6.


Personally I believe Wales have made an error by recalling Warburton so it helps balance things up in the backrow battle.

[George Carlin]

Surely SJ knows that we are unlikely to be able to boss the set piece in the same way that we did against Ireland and so moving it through the hand has to be the way we win?

I don't see that the selection of Weir is inconsistent with this. SJ spent a lot of time this week making clear that the cliches about Weir and Jackson (Weir is Mr Kick, Jackson is Mr Run And Pass) don't hold a lot of sway with him. I think that a vote for Weir is a vote for a more mixed game plan, rather than a kicking one.

[TJ1]

Indeed - Weir has a good running game and not a bad pass as well. Can exert pressure and control when needed and a great kick. laidlaw for the short range kicks - Weir for long

[Manky-Flanker]

laidlaw for the short range kicks - Weir for long

Jackson for the sliced...

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Indeed - Weir has a good running game and not a bad pass as well. Can exert pressure and control when needed and a great kick.

This is why I'm not happy to see him selected. Laidlaw and Weir is potentially a very good half-back pairing.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Indeed - Weir has a good running game and not a bad pass as well. Can exert pressure and control when needed and a great kick.

This is why I'm not happy to see him selected. Laidlaw and Weir is potentially a very good half-back pairing.

If a little small...

[George Carlin]

Indeed - Weir has a good running game and not a bad pass as well. Can exert pressure and control when needed and a great kick.

This is why I'm not happy to see him selected. Laidlaw and Weir is potentially a very good half-back pairing.

If a little small...

At 5'9", Greiggy towers over the Meatball's 5'8".

That must rival Parra and Freddie as the tiniest half back combination in the tournament.

[UlstermaninGlasgow]

Indeed - Weir has a good running game and not a bad pass as well. Can exert pressure and control when needed and a great kick.

This is why I'm not happy to see him selected. Laidlaw and Weir is potentially a very good half-back pairing.

If a little small...

What the meatball lacks in size he more than makes up for in Glaswegian grit. Best moment so far in Scotstoun was when Dunc squared up to one of the Italian second rows early in the season... Had to be restrained by Al Kellock...

[Pat_Mustard]

He might be short but is a pretty chunky Glaswegian meatball (http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/u/news/pork-meatballs-made-in-glasgow-drawn-into-horse-meat-scandal.1360747411) depending on which source you believe he's 14st, 14st 2lb or 14st 5lb - Jackson is 13st 7lb.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I was going to say, he's short but he's not small.

[Guest]

Reckon there's been some Gatland influence in there, telling Rob H to pick Warbuton so that he has sufficient reason to pick him for the Lions? (Not a WUM - genuine questions!)

Majesticimperialman hasn't hacked you has he? If that was the case, then he'd have started v Italy

What is puzzling is Howley's justification of Warburton performed well in his last game (all ten minutes of it)

[TJ1]

Laidlaw and Weir against Biggar and Phillips -
Biggar is 6'2" and 14 stone ish? Philips 6'3" 16 ish stone
Laidlaw 5'9" 12 1/2 stone Weir 5'8" 14 stone odd.

[George Carlin]

So Philips is big. But his colleague's Biggar.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Again, I'm not sure the height of half backs is particularly significant. If Weir was slight as well as short, that would be different, but he's certainly not slight.

[RDW]

I wouldn't pick my 9 and 10 based on how big they are...

[George Carlin]

Again, I'm not sure the height of half backs is particularly significant.

It means that the SRU save a bit of money on their match day kit.

They only need to give Laidlaw and Weir the children's sizes.

[RDW]

Reckon there's been some Gatland influence in there, telling Rob H to pick Warbuton so that he has sufficient reason to pick him for the Lions? (Not a WUM - genuine questions!)

Majesticimperialman hasn't hacked you has he? If that was the case, then he'd have started v Italy

What is puzzling is Howley's justification of Warburton performed well in his last game (all ten minutes of it)

That's why I'm wondering whether there is an ulterior motive...it doesn't make much sense!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Again, I'm not sure the height of half backs is particularly significant.

It means that the SRU save a bit of money on their match day kit.

They only need to give Laidlaw and Weir the children's sizes.

That kind of thriftiness is invaluable in the current economic climate.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Since Gatt's is keeping so much faith in Warbs, what happens if he get's cuffed by Brown and/or Harley, does that mean they are sure fire Lions Test starters?

Tipuric could rightly feel very very unhappy.

It's something of a shambles for Warbs to get the call since he hasn't played well better than Tipuric since the RWC.

[TJ1]

So Philips is big. But his colleague's Biggar.

[TJ1]

I wouldn't pick my 9 and 10 based on how big they are...

Wales appear to be

[George Carlin]

So Philips is big. But his colleague's Biggar.

Very kind. There's stiff competition, but that's probably my worst ever contribution on these boards.

[funnyExiledScot]

So Philips is big. But his colleague's Biggar.

Very kind. There's stiff competition, but that's probably my worst ever contribution on these boards.

I strenuously dispute that GC!

[George Carlin]

So Philips is big. But his colleague's Biggar.

Very kind. There's stiff competition, but that's probably my worst ever contribution on these boards.

I strenuously dispute that GC!

Hey. Wait, a minute...

[Comfort]

So Murray's back in to combat the welsh scrum and the games on the right day.

At least Warburton won't have to play against a 'pilaging' 7 but I cant help but feel this was a game for Tiperic to shine in against the bigger(slightly slower) backrow of scotland but alas.

AWJ is in as hes test class and he needs gametime, thats no disrespect to scotland, but AWJ is the sort of player who will challenge for the Lions squad, Coombs isnt, as harsh as that sounds . Coombs is not secure enough with the ball in contact or contesting/clearing the breakdown in comparison with AWJ yet. Hes done an excellant job but lets be honest, hes 3rd/4th choice at best when all lock options are firing. I expect him to make a good impact off the bench and it allows us to have our other specialist 7 on the bench as Coombs can cover 6 (and probably is a more natural fit for him than lock). Against scotland, turnovers are key as they've looked deadly on the counter.

What sort of impact are you guys looking for from the bench? And from Weir?

I just realised I went off on a bit of a tangent about some welsh folk there, but my point was that I think those changes have been made to combat the very in form scottish pack. AWJ/Warbs are very strong at the breakdown, Scotland havent been very good here so far, its this battle I feel could tip the scales in favour of either side.

[RubyGuby]

Someone mentioned Harley will not do anything to ensure wales get slow ball. Don't worry Phillips will do that job for you

[tigertattie]

In an ideal world I'd love to see Dunbar at 13 and lamont on the bench with the squashed one being dropped out.

In an ideal world I'd love to see Heathcote on the bench and Wacko Jacko the 2nd being dropped out.

But in international rugby you really dont want to throw too many new players into the mix at the same time. It is a gradual building process and we need to build on our momentum and (shocked as we are) back to back wins.

You dont make wholesale changes to a winning team. You tinker yes to keep improving, but the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water!

[123456789]

Personally I think this year could be a break through year, if we can get at least one more win this six nations then we will have won more games in one six nations than Andy Robinson ever did whilst coaching us, then in the summer when potentially a lot of our top players are away we might see the break through of the likes of Bennett and Dunbar, therefore allowing us to go into next season with roughly two decent players in each position:

15. Stuart Hogg, Greig Tonks
14. Sean Maitland, Tommy Seymour
13. Mark Bennett, Peter Horne, Ben Cairns
12. Matt Scott, Alex Dunbar
11. Tim Visser, Tom Brown
10. Duncan Weir, Tom Heathcote
9. Laidlaw, Cusiter, Pyrgos
8. Beattie, Denton, Wilson
7. Rennie, Barclay, Fusaro
6. Brown, Harley, Strockosch
5. Hamilton, Kellock
4. Gray, Gilchrist
3. Murray, Low, Cross
2. Ford, MacAthur
1. Grant, Welsh, Reid

[RDW]

Don't quite share your optimism numbers - things are better than they were but I'm not overly excited by the reserve backs you've mentioned. Ones for the future yes but it is a big step down from players like Visser to Brown, Hogg to Tonks etc

[George Carlin]

That's a pretty fair list, Numbers, to say nothing of the general age of the current Scotland squad members being 25/26 or below.

I agree with RDW that it's players of Hogg and Maitland's standards that we are allowed to get really excited about but in comparison to the dross that was capped over the past 8 years, we're in clover with this lot.

We can add Fife and Farndale to the list of wingers and the U20s have some real talent which I'm really looking forward to see develop - Sam Clyne, Ashe, Allan and Fergusson. Let's just whisper it for now, but things are looking brighter than they have in a while.

[RDW]

Strength in depth is 2 similar standard players in most positions. We've got close to that in the forwards but are a long way off in the backs. They are all young though so we may have it in a couple of years time!

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

As long as it isn't Wayne Barnes I'm happy!

Or Clownshoes Clancy

[Captain_Sensible]

Strength in depth is 2 similar standard players in most positions. We've got close to that in the forwards but are a long way off in the backs. They are all young though so we may have it in a couple of years time!

I think it’s a little unrealistic to expect us to have another player of, for instance, Hogg’s quality waiting in the wings at fullback. Guys with Hogg’s talent come along pretty infrequently. Same with Visser and Maitland. We do have decent depth at wing – Fife, Lamont, Seymour, with some u20s coming through.

Let’s look at it this way – our back-up fullback, Tonks, is way, way better than Southwell, our first choice fullback of a few years ago. That’s a massive step forward in my book.

Another step forward is the excellent depth we are developing in previously problem positions, like fly half and the centres. That’s the thing that makes me happiest about the current situation with Scotland.

[glamorganalun]

I think the Welsh management has shown respect to Scotland by picking their strongest team so far this 6N, also for me Weir is a good selection, kicks well both at the posts and out of hand also he is not weak in the tackle as Laidlaw was last year. Looking forward to the game, lots of individual battles to look out for.

[Morgannwg]

I wonder what the headlines will be on Sunday.

Wales stay on course for title defence
Johnson's honeymoon period over
Grand Slammers beat Wooden Spooners
Grand Slammers high five Johnson
Wales good record against Scotland stays in tact
Phillips runs the show as Wales pummel Scotland
A victory for victim Byrne (said captain Jones)
Johnsons mind games fail

[funnyExiledScot]

I wonder what the headlines will be on Sunday.

Wales stay on course for title defence
Johnson's honeymoon period over
Grand Slammers beat Wooden Spooners
Grand Slammers high five Johnson
Wales good record against Scotland stays in tact
Phillips runs the show as Wales pummel Scotland
A victory for victim Byrne (said captain Jones)
Johnsons mind games fail

Phillips screwed!

[funnyExiledScot]

Strength in depth is 2 similar standard players in most positions. We've got close to that in the forwards but are a long way off in the backs. They are all young though so we may have it in a couple of years time!

Our reserve wingers, Fife and Seymour, are good players but some way off Visser and Maitland. Our reserve looseheads (Reid, Welsh and Dickinson) are some way off Ryan Grant, and whoever replaces Richie Gray is a hefty step down (albeit competent - particularly Tim Swinson).

Otherwise though I don't actually think there's an awful lot between first and second choice across the board. In particular I don't see a glaring gap between Hogg and Tonks.

If we were to do a probables vs possibles it would look something like this:

Probables

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Gray 6.Brown 7.Rennie 8.Beattie 9.Laidlaw 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Lamont 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

Possibles

1.Welsh 2.MacArthur 3.Cross 4.Kellock 5.Swinson 6.Harley 7.Barclay 8.Denton 9.Cusiter 10.Jackson 11.Fife 12.Dunbar 13.Grove 14.Seymour 15.Tonks

[George Carlin]

I wonder what the headlines will be on Sunday.

Wales stay on course for title defence
Johnson's honeymoon period over
Grand Slammers beat Wooden Spooners
Grand Slammers high five Johnson
Wales good record against Scotland stays in tact
Phillips runs the show as Wales pummel Scotland
A victory for victim Byrne (said captain Jones)
Johnsons mind games fail

Phillips screwed!

"Wales win (morally)":"Scoreline not everything" says weeping Howley

[GLove39]

I wonder what the headlines will be on Sunday.

Wales stay on course for title defence
Johnson's honeymoon period over
Grand Slammers beat Wooden Spooners
Grand Slammers high five Johnson
Wales good record against Scotland stays in tact
Phillips runs the show as Wales pummel Scotland
A victory for victim Byrne (said captain Jones)
Johnsons mind games fail

Phillips screwed!

'Warburton toasts Scotland as Wales are badly burnt at Murrayfield'...

[Hood83]

So Philips is big. But his colleague's Biggar.

WAHAY!

As an outsider looking in it's amazing to think Max Evans is being called by some to be dropped. A year or two back I thought he was your most creative and important back, I presume this is a combination of a) players emerging (Maitland, Visser, Hogg) b) poor form and c) me actually not really knowing anything about Scottish players.

[Morgannwg]

I wonder what the headlines will be on Sunday.

Wales stay on course for title defence
Johnson's honeymoon period over
Grand Slammers beat Wooden Spooners
Grand Slammers high five Johnson
Wales good record against Scotland stays in tact
Phillips runs the show as Wales pummel Scotland
A victory for victim Byrne (said captain Jones)
Johnsons mind games fail

Phillips screwed!

"Wales win (morally)":"Scoreline not everything" says weeping Howley

Sounds just like something he would say!

[RubyGuby]

That would be 10 moral wins out of 11 George

[bsando]

Don't quite share your optimism numbers - things are better than they were but I'm not overly excited by the reserve backs you've mentioned. Ones for the future yes but it is a big step down from players like Visser to Brown, Hogg to Tonks etc

Big Step down from Hogg to Tonks!?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Strength in depth is 2 similar standard players in most positions. We've got close to that in the forwards but are a long way off in the backs. They are all young though so we may have it in a couple of years time!

Our reserve wingers, Fife and Seymour, are good players but some way off Visser and Maitland. Our reserve looseheads (Reid, Welsh and Dickinson) are some way off Ryan Grant, and whoever replaces Richie Gray is a hefty step down (albeit competent - particularly Tim Swinson).

Otherwise though I don't actually think there's an awful lot between first and second choice across the board. In particular I don't see a glaring gap between Hogg and Tonks.

If we were to do a probables vs possibles it would look something like this:

Probables

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Gray 6.Brown 7.Rennie 8.Beattie 9.Laidlaw 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Lamont 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

Possibles

1.Welsh 2.MacArthur 3.Cross 4.Kellock 5.Swinson 6.Harley 7.Barclay 8.Denton 9.Cusiter 10.Jackson 11.Fife 12.Dunbar 13.Grove 14.Seymour 15.Tonks

fES would you have Denton ahead of Wilson ? I would rather have Murchie ahead of Tonks also.

[reallybored]

Winger is a worry, behind Maitland and Visser there isn't much in terms of quality.

Seymour has done well for Glasgow but when at full strength he probably wouldn't feature in the team because of Maitland and DTH.

Fife has done well enough for Edinburgh but is nowhere near International quality right now.

Jones did really well last season and has shown flashes of quality but has been way off the pace this year and his defence is an issue, hopefully he'll respond next season.

Duncan Taylor of Saracens did well for the A team but he probably won't feature consistently for his Sarries for a while and is more of centre anyway.

There obviously still Walker and both Lamont brothers but will any of them still be around come RWC 2015?

Of the young guys, Farndale is possibly the most exciting but his serious knee injury will have set him back a couple seasons and he's still very young.

Missed anyone?

Bit worrying in my opinion.

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