Scotland vs Wales: Match Thread

[bsando]

First topic message reminder :

SCOTLAND vs WALES

Venue: Murrayfield
Date: 9/3/13
Kick-off: 14:30
TV coverage: BBC One
Weather Forecast: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/edinburgh#?tab=fiveDay&fcTime=1362787200
Ref: Craig Joubert

SCOTLAND
1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Harley
7. Brown
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Lamont
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Bench: 16. Hall 17. Low 18. Cross 19. Kelock 20. Wilson 21. Prygos 22. Jackson 23. Evans

WALES
1. James
2. Hibbard
3. A. Jones
4. A. W. Jones
5. Evans
6. R. Jones
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Owens 17. Andrew 18. Mitchell 19. Coombs 20. Tipuric 21. L. Williams 22. Hook 23. S. Williams

[Imperialbigdave]

Don't quite share your optimism numbers - things are better than they were but I'm not overly excited by the reserve backs you've mentioned. Ones for the future yes but it is a big step down from players like Visser to Brown, Hogg to Tonks etc

Big Step down from Hogg to Tonks!?

wouldve said its more of a step across, theyre very different types of fullbacks.

[MacKnocked-on]

Certainly room at Edinburgh for another SQ Lineen find from Oz or Nz and/or Taylor from Sarries.

[bsando]

Don't quite share your optimism numbers - things are better than they were but I'm not overly excited by the reserve backs you've mentioned. Ones for the future yes but it is a big step down from players like Visser to Brown, Hogg to Tonks etc

Big Step down from Hogg to Tonks!?

wouldve said its more of a step across, theyre very different types of fullbacks.

Yeah that is a fair assessment. Both have a huge boot though and I would say Tonks has a better kicking game in terms of placement. Hogg just smashes torpedoes down the field. But Hogg is faster. Both really good players.

Visser to brown is a big step down. Brown is nowhere near the class of visser but a player who will hopefully get better.

[bsando]

Winger is a worry, behind Maitland and Visser there isn't much in terms of quality.

Seymour has done well for Glasgow but when at full strength he probably wouldn't feature in the team because of Maitland and DTH.

Fife has done well enough for Edinburgh but is nowhere near International quality right now.

Jones did really well last season and has shown flashes of quality but has been way off the pace this year and his defence is an issue, hopefully he'll respond next season.

Duncan Taylor of Saracens did well for the A team but he probably won't feature consistently for his Sarries for a while and is more of centre anyway.

There obviously still Walker and both Lamont brothers but will any of them still be around come RWC 2015?

Of the young guys, Farndale is possibly the most exciting but his serious knee injury will have set him back a couple seasons and he's still very young.

Missed anyone?

Bit worrying in my opinion.

Ansbro! I really hope he recovers and gets back into squad. One of my favourite Scotland players.

[TJ1]

Bit worrying in my opinion.

How long have you been a Scots fan? the best crop of players for decades and some decent back up and you are worried? do you remember the 90s? Rowan Shepard? FFS man enjoy the riches

[IanBru]

Andy Henderson, Sam Pinder, Ed Kalman, Scott Gray, Matt Mustchin...

How about Matt Scott, Greig Laidlaw, Ryan Grant, Rob Harley, Tim Swinson...

[GLove39]

Andy Henderson, Sam Pinder, Ed Kalman, Scott Gray, Matt Mustchin...

How about Matt Scott, Greig Laidlaw, Ryan Grant, Rob Harley, Tim Swinson...

I won't hear a bad word said against Hatrick Henderson

[reallybored]

Don't get me wrong, this is comfortably the best backline in over a decade and there is more youth coming through across the park which is exciting.

But winger is one area where there aren't many quality options, luckily both Matland and Visser are relatively young.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

"Scoreline not everything" says weeping Howley

[RDW]

Big Step down from Hogg to Tonks!?

I'm a massive fan of Tonks but there's really no comparison at test match level. Still early days though and I'm sure Tonks will feature on the future

[RDW]

Basically tonks can't be classed as a sign of our strength in depth when he's not got any experience at this level!

[MacKnocked-on]

Speaking of wingers,what about young Rory Hughes in the U20s and 7s, he looks like a pretty big guy with some potential to figure in a couple of seasons or so?

[funnyExiledScot]

Strength in depth is 2 similar standard players in most positions. We've got close to that in the forwards but are a long way off in the backs. They are all young though so we may have it in a couple of years time!

Our reserve wingers, Fife and Seymour, are good players but some way off Visser and Maitland. Our reserve looseheads (Reid, Welsh and Dickinson) are some way off Ryan Grant, and whoever replaces Richie Gray is a hefty step down (albeit competent - particularly Tim Swinson).

Otherwise though I don't actually think there's an awful lot between first and second choice across the board. In particular I don't see a glaring gap between Hogg and Tonks.

If we were to do a probables vs possibles it would look something like this:

Probables

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Gray 6.Brown 7.Rennie 8.Beattie 9.Laidlaw 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Lamont 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

Possibles

1.Welsh 2.MacArthur 3.Cross 4.Kellock 5.Swinson 6.Harley 7.Barclay 8.Denton 9.Cusiter 10.Jackson 11.Fife 12.Dunbar 13.Grove 14.Seymour 15.Tonks

fES would you have Denton ahead of Wilson ? I would rather have Murchie ahead of Tonks also.

On current form you are right about Wilson, fair call. I'd take Tonks over Murchie any day of the week though. Tonks is just a better fullback, no question.

[funnyExiledScot]

Basically tonks can't be classed as a sign of our strength in depth when he's not got any experience at this level!

You wouldn't have considered Maitland as adding depth until he played an international rugby match? What about Visser before last summer? Weir hasn't started a match yet for Scotland but surely he can come into the equation.

I think club rugby, although obviously a different level, is still the best indicator as to how a player will perform in Test rugby. When a player has clearly demonstrated his class at club level, consistently, I have no issue considering that as depth.

[George Carlin]

From Smithers in the Herald today - interesting bit is SJ's faith in Harley, having considered Barclay and Stroker for his shirt:

Johnson gambles by keeping Weir on the move
Wednesday 6 March 2013

Duncan Weir's justification of the calculated risk taken by Scotland's management last weekend has vindicated them taking another chance on the 21-year-old stand-off for the match that will decide whether his side have a chance of taking the title.

Starting a club game the week before an international is unusual for any player not seeking to prove physical fitness but so, too, is the decision to change playmaker after successive wins, particularly when the side has waited 12 years to do so in championship matches.

Contextual targeting label: retail

Those two victories over Italy and Ireland have earned Scott Johnson, the caretaker head coach, and his assistants the right to unorthodoxy and, in any case, no-one is kidding themselves that they were anywhere close to flawless performances.

"It's a fine line we take here . . . but we wanted him [Weir] to keep playing and get confidence in what he's doing," Johnson said yesterday. "I thought he played well the other night and he provides us with something different, but it's a tough gig out there in that position. It's a different skill-set and we're not disappointed in Jacko [Ruaridh Jackson]. There are areas of the game Jacko needs to work on but we're acknowledging that we need to improve certain areas of our game."

Johnson more or less agreed when asked whether he thought the change in such a pivotal position might wrong-foot the Welsh management.

"There's been a lot of pressure on Greig [Laidlaw] and we're trying to alleviate some of that so it's good if it surprises them," he responded. "They probably wouldn't have predicted it and that's not a bad thing, but the fact is I'm not so worried about Wales, I'm worried about us and trying to get us right."

In terms of what is best for Scotland, a key difference between Weir and Jackson has always been the way their onfield persona, consideration of which seemed to be reflected in the latest pithy offering from a man who was a stand-off himself, albeit one who did not reach the Test arena.

"It's a funny position," Johnson mused. "It's one that requires you to think like a man of action and act like a man of thought. It's a difficult position to play."

For those reasons it takes time for players to reach their potential, too and it is worth noting that, still only 21, Weir is three years younger than Jonny Sexton – considered a certainty to be the British & Irish Lions stand-off this year – was when he made his first Ireland start four years ago.

Yet Weir has been a contender since making his Scotland A debut three years ago and has always carried the natural swagger of the best exponents of this crucial position.

There have, of course, been mistakes aplenty in the time he has spent in senior professional rugby. However, what has been striking throughout is his demeanour.

Weir appears unaffected by setbacks and instantly looks for chances to bounce back.Saturday will, of course, be the biggest examination of his temperament thus far as he starts a Test for the first time and while all modern players know the right noises to make ahead of big games his choice of words rang true.

"The most nervous you will be is before the game during the anthems and all that," he said. "It is a nervous period but there are so many more proud emotions that come into your head at that time. Once the ball is in play for the first time during the game, then everything else will go to the back of my mind apart from the gameplan and what we want. The team will be on the front of my mind. I'm sure that I will not get caught up in the occasion too much."

His principal task is to try to ensure that if the Scottish pack does as well in the set-piece as it did against Ireland, their success in doing so can be made to tell to greater effect because of where they are winning the ball.

The strange juxtaposition between the way they performed in what are normally seen as key battlegrounds and Ireland's overall domination of possession was partly down to the fact that they were winning the ball in areas where they could not afford to hang on to it. That, of course, is not all down to half-back decisions, but the satisfaction with the way the forwards have gone about their business is shown by the fact that the only change to the pack is the now ritual return of Euan Murray after he has missed a match played on the Sabbath.

Johnson said that was no comment on Geoff Cross's efforts 10 days ago which were widely viewed as excellent, but merely an acceptance that Murray is a "world-class tighthead".

Up against what the coach believes is the one team in the championship which boasts a specialist openside – and with Sam Warburton returning yesterday in place of Justin Tipuric they boast not one but two – Scotland might have made a tactical switch by reintroducing John Barclay, now fit and fast returning to top form.

Al Strokosch, who started against England, was also available and, while Johnson admitted to considering both, it is clear that considerable confidence has quickly been formed in Rob Harley as a foil for the redoubtable Kelly Brown and resurgent Johnnie Beattie.

That sanguinity was best expressed in the way that Johnson indicated that the only real discussion about which back-row forward to bring in, which resulted in Ryan Wilson being rewarded for his exemplary efforts as Scotland A and Glasgow Warriors captain in recent weeks, related to the bench.

"We're trying to predict things on the bench and what might happen. We felt we had enough coverage of the guys there if something failed to cover it and Ryan provided something different," he explained.

[funnyExiledScot]

Whilst for me the jury is still out on SJ, it is refreshing to have a head coach who appears to have genuinely and thoughtfully considered team selection.

Not since Jim Telfer/Ian McGeechan over 10 years ago have I felt team selection has been given appropriate and due consideration.

[RDW]

Basically tonks can't be classed as a sign of our strength in depth when he's not got any experience at this level!

You wouldn't have considered Maitland as adding depth until he played an international rugby match? What about Visser before last summer? Weir hasn't started a match yet for Scotland but surely he can come into the equation.

I think club rugby, although obviously a different level, is still the best indicator as to how a player will perform in Test rugby. When a player has clearly demonstrated his class at club level, consistently, I have no issue considering that as depth.

I just think it is a bit ridiculous to say we have strength in depth at International level if a lot of our 2nd choice players have never played International rugby before. That is just my definition of 'strength in depth'.

I'm not saying these guys aren't very good players, just that surely we can't use them for a strength in depth argument.

Back row - very much strength in depth.

Back 3 - not much strength in depth, but positive signs for the future.

[NeilyBroon]

Basically tonks can't be classed as a sign of our strength in depth when he's not got any experience at this level!

You wouldn't have considered Maitland as adding depth until he played an international rugby match? What about Visser before last summer? Weir hasn't started a match yet for Scotland but surely he can come into the equation.

I think club rugby, although obviously a different level, is still the best indicator as to how a player will perform in Test rugby. When a player has clearly demonstrated his class at club level, consistently, I have no issue considering that as depth.

I just think it is a bit ridiculous to say we have strength in depth at International level if a lot of our 2nd choice players have never played International rugby before. That is just my definition of 'strength in depth'.

I'm not saying these guys aren't very good players, just that surely we can't use them for a strength in depth argument.

Back row - very much strength in depth.

Back 3 - not much strength in depth, but positive signs for the future.

Our depth is probably best described by a research term used when cherrypicking data...

it's trending towards significance...

[bsando]

Yeah I see where your coming from RDW, I mean teams like SA and AUS have lots of good proven options. Pocock and Hooper, both world class 7's, Beale, Barnes. They have a lot of versatility as well which I really like, I also think that is one reason Glasgow have been doing so well recently. Matawalu has been on the wing then suddenly at 9 and its confusing for the opposition. Glasgow are a very good example of true strength in depth I suppose. Hopefully that will translate to international stage next year.

My player ratings for Scotland vs Wales, loosely based on current form.

1. Grant (7/10) vs James (7/10)
2. Ford (7/10) vs Hibbard (7.5/10)
3. Murray (7/10) vs Jones (8.5/10)
4. Gray (7.5/10) vs AWJ (7/10)
5. Hamilton (7.5/10) vs Evans (7/10)
6. Harley (6.5/10) vs Jones (7/10)
7. Brown (8/10) vs Warburton (6.5/10)
8. Beattie (7/10) vs Faleteau (7/10)
9. Laidlaw (6.5/10) vs Phillips (7/10)
10. Weir (6/10) vs Biggar (6.5/10)
11. Visser (7.5/10) vs North (7.5/10)
12. Scott (8/10) vs Roberts (7/10)
13. Lamont (5.5/10) vs Davies (7.5/10)
14. Maitland (8.5/10 vs Cuthbert (7.5/10)
15. Hogg (8/10) vs 1/2p (8.5/10)

Scotland: 107.5/150 vs Wales: 109.5/150

So this actually sums up my thoughts on both teams weaknesses. I think we have a weakness at 9/10 and in Lamont at 13. And I think wales have a weakness in Biggar who I personally think is not as good as Hook.

[RubyGuby]

Ian Evans has been our outstanding player this season and I would put my house on him going with the Lions - His battle with a resurgent Jim Hamilton won't be for the faint hearted but don't expect Ianto to buckle

[George Carlin]

The more I look at these teams, the more even they seem.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I have some cigarette papers if that's any help, GC.

[funnyExiledScot]

I find myself in a strange place agreeing with RubyGuby - Ian Evans is an outstanding lock and for me a likely Lions tourist. I'd have him at least on a par with Hamilton, probably a notch up.

Evans is big but he's also mobile and athletic. Soft hands as well. He could be a superb foil for Launchbury, Gray or Lawes in the summer. All athletic, powerful and modern locks. Big work rates all round.

The contest between Adam Jones and Ryan Grant will also be very interesting. If Grant gets close to parity his credentials for the summer will continue to enhance. The improvement in Ryan Grant's game over the last 12 months has been staggering. Reminds me of when Tom Smith broke through in 1996 - 1997 and went from being a small and underpowered prop to one of the best technical scrummagers the game has seen.

Faletau vs Beattie is another cracker. For my money Faletau is the Lions favourite - big work rate and effective carrier. Beattie though certainly has the abilities to match him. A big game on Saturday in front of Gatland and Beattie's comeback will be complete, especially in the light of Heaslip's apparent fall from grace.

[maestegmafia]

Good team there Scots fans...

Seriously looking forward to this, and it will coincide with watching the game with my young nephew's new scottish inlaws who have offered us two tickets, should make for great banter before and after....

If the atmosphere is anywhere near as good as the other games I have attended this year then, I can not wait.

[RubyGuby]

"I find myself in a strange place agreeing with RubyGuby"

Don't worry FES, the more rugby knowledge and nous you acquire the closer we'll become

[maestegmafia]

I find myself in a strange place agreeing with RubyGuby - Ian Evans is an outstanding lock and for me a likely Lions tourist. I'd have him at least on a par with Hamilton, probably a notch up.

Evans is big but he's also mobile and athletic. Soft hands as well. He could be a superb foil for Launchbury, Gray or Lawes in the summer. All athletic, powerful and modern locks. Big work rates all round.

The contest between Adam Jones and Ryan Grant will also be very interesting. If Grant gets close to parity his credentials for the summer will continue to enhance. The improvement in Ryan Grant's game over the last 12 months has been staggering. Reminds me of when Tom Smith broke through in 1996 - 1997 and went from being a small and underpowered prop to one of the best technical scrummagers the game has seen.

Faletau vs Beattie is another cracker. For my money Faletau is the Lions favourite - big work rate and effective carrier. Beattie though certainly has the abilities to match him. A big game on Saturday in front of Gatland and Beattie's comeback will be complete, especially in the light of Heaslip's apparent fall from grace.

You have pinpointed some good match ups there.

Interesting to see Wier given a go vs Wales. Do you guys think he will make a difference to the backline?

[TJ1]

I expect Weir to make a difference. His touch kicking is good and long - so we should be able to control field position better, he has a decent running game and a decent pass so should be able to bring the outside backs into play and although he has had little gametime he has been around the team a lot so shuld not be too ervous
- I expect he and Laidlaw will mesh well and will play very high tempo

[funnyExiledScot]

I think Weir is a more decisive player than Jackson, and he's a better kicker of the ball. That's not to say he's a more negative player necessarily, but more likely to vary the play.

SJ summarises it quite nicely. Weir will take some of the pressure off Laidlaw in terms of game management, whereas Jackson was in the side purely to run the backs. Against Ireland he never received a single attacking ball, so his purpose was negated. I personally felt that Laidlaw kicked too much, and I think that was partly because he didn't trust Jackson and the other backs with the ball under pressure. With Weir I think he'll be more likely to trust Weir to kick the ball if nothing is on, whereas Jackson would probably have been more inclined to ship the ball to Scott rather than take the safe option.

Most Scots fans, myself included, think Weir is the long term best option at 10 for Scotland (that's until Harry Leonard gets more game time for Edinburgh....). Can't wait to see how he gets on, and if the game opens up in the final quarter, then a fresh Jackson coming off the bench with a point to prove may be a good way of using him.

[123456789]

I think that this could be a big performance from Scotland, we've seen a very strong defensive performance and a strong attacking performance on Saturday I hope we see a combination of the two.
I think that Scotland will try to use Weir's boot to try to test Cuthbert's positioning and it looks to me like they're going to try to take them up front and in the set piece which explains Murray's recall. If they gain the upper hand then they'll try to attack them out wide because although Roberts and Davies aren't exactly creative they can defend.
I'm going to predict 28-13 to Scotland, tries from Grant, Maitland, Hogg and Weir.

[George Carlin]

Ian Evans was always one of my two Lions locks. He's the most underrated in his position in the NH and when he p!ssed off to get married, the Welsh tight game broadly fell apart.

Wobbling a bit off topic, I am a traditionalist and want an enforcer and a young buck. My enforcer would either be Evans, Parling or Hines (assuming no O'Connell) and my young slip of a lad would be Launchbury, Gray or Jones.

[RubyGuby]

If the Lions were playing S Africa I would love to see Hamilton and Evans in the 2nd row together (just for the hell of it)

[maestegmafia]

Hamilton is a seriously good player, nice to read the compliments of Evans, he is a good lad and is playing some great rugby. finally, after all the injury trouble he had over the last few years.

[maestegmafia]

I expect Weir to make a difference. His touch kicking is good and long - so we should be able to control field position better, he has a decent running game and a decent pass so should be able to bring the outside backs into play and although he has had little gametime he has been around the team a lot so shuld not be too ervous
- I expect he and Laidlaw will mesh well and will play very high tempo

I think Weir is a more decisive player than Jackson, and he's a better kicker of the ball. That's not to say he's a more negative player necessarily, but more likely to vary the play.

SJ summarises it quite nicely. Weir will take some of the pressure off Laidlaw in terms of game management, whereas Jackson was in the side purely to run the backs. Against Ireland he never received a single attacking ball, so his purpose was negated. I personally felt that Laidlaw kicked too much, and I think that was partly because he didn't trust Jackson and the other backs with the ball under pressure. With Weir I think he'll be more likely to trust Weir to kick the ball if nothing is on, whereas Jackson would probably have been more inclined to ship the ball to Scott rather than take the safe option.

Most Scots fans, myself included, think Weir is the long term best option at 10 for Scotland (that's until Harry Leonard gets more game time for Edinburgh....). Can't wait to see how he gets on, and if the game opens up in the final quarter, then a fresh Jackson coming off the bench with a point to prove may be a good way of using him.

Cheers lads... I agree that Harry Leonard looks a cracking prospect for Scotland, been a big fan of his for a couple of years.

Will be interesting to see how the game management aspect of Scotland's possession changes with the new halfbacks. There was a lot of kicking by the Scots the other week but thats not always a bad thing, Laidlaw kicks well.

[jimbopip]

Guys, can anyone help me? As you might have noticed I am going to Murrayfield on Saturday. Sadly, my mate james has had to rush home to Manchester where his mother is in intensive care. This means I have an extra ticket. If anyone has any helpful suggestions please PM me.
Thanks Jimbopip

[maestegmafia]

Guys, can anyone help me? As you might have noticed I am going to Murrayfield on Saturday. Sadly, my mate james has had to rush home to Manchester where his mother is in intensive care. This means I have an extra ticket. If anyone has any helpful suggestions please PM me.
Thanks Jimbopip

Sorry for your friend Jim, very sad news...!

Will keep my ears open for any potential sales for you.

[jimbopip]

Thanks, Maesteg. In response to one of your earlier posts; I can't see anything between the sides at the moment. I really think it could go any way except I think JD2 is better than Schlong at 13 and I think the Scots bench is much better, especially the front row- I don't think a tired Adan Jones will like to see Doctor Cross coming on after 65 mins, ditto for Moray Low.
Thanks again

[maestegmafia]

Thanks, Maesteg. In response to one of your earlier posts; I can't see anything between the sides at the moment. I really think it could go any way except I think JD2 is better than Schlong at 13 and I think the Scots bench is much better, especially the front row- I don't think a tired Adan Jones will like to see Doctor Cross coming on after 65 mins, ditto for Moray Low.
Thanks again

No leads yet mate...


I wouldn't underrate young Andrews or Bevington, both have put in some very commendable performances this year even though they are both third choice for Wales. Coombs and Tips wont let us down and many are calling for Scott, Hooky and Lloyd to start for Wales.

Thats a pretty strong Welsh bench.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

No genuine back three cover though, Maes. I know Hook's played full back before, but never convincingly.

[George Carlin]

already. And it's only Thursday.

Incidentally, a question I had was that if Halfpenny has to leave the field, who will be taking the pots at goal for Wales?

[maestegmafia]

already. And it's only Thursday.

Incidentally, a question I had was that if Halfpenny has to leave the field, who will be taking the pots at goal for Wales?

Biggar

[maestegmafia]

No genuine back three cover though, Maes. I know Hook's played full back before, but never convincingly.

hook is more than adequate injury cover from the bench for a fullback but i see your point. I would rather Liam Williams was there than Scott.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

That would make more sense. Hook can play centre if needed and would be better there than at full back. But then again, I'd love to see Scott Williams get more game time.

[maestegmafia]

Thats the trick. I can see arguments both was and the rationale for Scott over Liam is that Hook can cover Fullback well enough. By saying we lack back three bench cover we are picking at bones. Scott Williams, JD2 and Roberts both have Wing experience for Wales, Hook covers 10, 12, 13 and 15.

[RubyGuby]

That is now a very powerful welsh team and confidence is back - Can't wait

[Cyril]

The race for 2nd is really heating up!

Good luck to both teams

[maestegmafia]

That is now a very powerful welsh team and confidence is back - Can't wait

Can be said for both sides.

[RubyGuby]

Can be said for both sides.

Naaaaaaa

[bsando]

Hey I thought I'd turn this thread into a match thread since so many welsh supporters were getting involved/creating banter here. Hope thats okay mods

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm sure they won't mind, although I don't see the positive in there being Welsh supported getting involved.

I always thought Wales would be a lovely country if it weren't for the Welsh

[bsando]

But then who would mine all our coal? I don't think anyone else is short enough...

Sorry couldn't help myself. I love Wales I do, enjoyed living here in Cardiff a lot. Wales vs Ireland match day banter was fantastic, looking forward to this weekend

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