Scotland vs Wales: Match Thread

[bsando]

First topic message reminder :

SCOTLAND vs WALES

Venue: Murrayfield
Date: 9/3/13
Kick-off: 14:30
TV coverage: BBC One
Weather Forecast: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/edinburgh#?tab=fiveDay&fcTime=1362787200
Ref: Craig Joubert

SCOTLAND
1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Harley
7. Brown
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Lamont
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Bench: 16. Hall 17. Low 18. Cross 19. Kelock 20. Wilson 21. Prygos 22. Jackson 23. Evans

WALES
1. James
2. Hibbard
3. A. Jones
4. A. W. Jones
5. Evans
6. R. Jones
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Owens 17. Andrew 18. Mitchell 19. Coombs 20. Tipuric 21. L. Williams 22. Hook 23. S. Williams

[George Carlin]

My brother once called Wales the Diet All Blacks and that seems to have stayed in my head for some reason.

[funnyExiledScot]

More like Coke Zero All Blacks.....

[Luckless Pedestrian]

So this is going to be the Scotland vs Wales Bickering Thread...!

[tigertattie]

we'd win

archery is now a pointless war tactic so there goes any hope you'd have had!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Oh go and eat some thistles.

[tigertattie]

apparently they make a lovely soup

Never had any myself so cannot judge

[bsando]

You could eat it with a lovely Welsh love spoon, I know where to find the biggest love spoon in Wales

[IanBru]

Despite everything I’m likely to say in the next couple days, I really like Wales. I used to go there for the ‘Welsh Rally GB’ every year (though why they changed the name from the ‘RAC Rally’ I’ll never know), as well as my Duke of Edinburgh hikes and a fair bit of mountaineering, and the bits I saw were pretty stunning, really. Admittedly, it took a few years before I saw any buildings in Wales that weren’t made of canvas…

As far as Welsh rugby goes, it’s a lot like a Radiohead discography. The oldest stuff is undeniably great, and even if you didn’t like it at the time, you can’t help but appreciate the genius. Then they experimented a bit and went through a few years of pointlessness, but you can see now the positive influence that they have had on other artists. Despite the lack of overall results, there were little gems of brilliance to enjoy among the overall mire. Now, for all their inventiveness, they are defined by their past glories, a caricature of their former selves. They are, in fact, on the verge of being superseded by the new kings of rock and roll…

…Biffy Clyro.

[majesticimperialman]

You could eat it with a lovely Welsh love spoon, I know where to find the biggest love spoon in Wales

Is the love spoon made of wood.

[bsando]

nice little metaphor there Bru!

[alexgmacdonald]

Analogy of the year by far!

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'm Welsh and I don't like Radiohead. Does that mean I have to leave the country?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Wales are more Manic Street Preachers and Scotland more Biffy Clyro !

[George Carlin]

That'll be this Young Persons' Music I've heard so much about.

[Imperialbigdave]

I always thought wales were more like the benny hill theme tune

[Morgannwg]

You could eat it with a lovely Welsh love spoon, I know where to find the biggest love spoon in Wales

Is the love spoon made of wood.

Taking into consideration that we, Wales, are the Grand Slammers and Scotland are the Wooden Spooners then no. You were close, you just got the teams mixed up.

[Ifandorbut]

The thing with Roberts is that teams have found out how to negate him.

Now before the Welsh lads start going mental at me, I say Roberts is a good player at what he does. But he has limitations.

Roberts tucks the ball under his arm and heads in a straight line towards the try line. In modern rugby the tackler will try to wrap up the runner to prevent the offload. This often involves hitting the runner high. Now if you hit Roberts high, he shrugs you off and keeps going, and this is why he was so effective in, say, the lions tour. At international level he rarely offloads. In recent years the tackler knows he is not going to offload, they know they don’t need to try take him high. They go for his legs and pull the big fella down
If wales use him to crash up all the time then teams will just soak this up. Lucky for wales though they have J Davies who is more apt at running a line and stepping off from one side to the other. If they can get Roberts to offload or use JD more effectively then you will see a more fearsome attack form wales.

+1

[jimbopip]

Agree, but it's JD2 against Schlong which worries me. Although I can't see daylight between the sides. It could be a cracker.
Oh and our flight back leaves at seven AbloodyM any point in going to bed?

[Liam]

Wales should look to use Roberts as a decoy. He attracts 2 defenders more often than not and by using him as a dummy runner with say, North, Cuthbert and JD2 on his shoulder, Wales could cause greater problems than we are currently doing.

[maestegmafia]

The thing with Roberts is that teams have found out how to negate him.

Now before the Welsh lads start going mental at me, I say Roberts is a good player at what he does. But he has limitations.

Roberts tucks the ball under his arm and heads in a straight line towards the try line. In modern rugby the tackler will try to wrap up the runner to prevent the offload. This often involves hitting the runner high. Now if you hit Roberts high, he shrugs you off and keeps going, and this is why he was so effective in, say, the lions tour. At international level he rarely offloads. In recent years the tackler knows he is not going to offload, they know they don’t need to try take him high. They go for his legs and pull the big fella down
If wales use him to crash up all the time then teams will just soak this up. Lucky for wales though they have J Davies who is more apt at running a line and stepping off from one side to the other. If they can get Roberts to offload or use JD more effectively then you will see a more fearsome attack form wales.

+1

Roberts and Davies have generally always played well vs Scotland. Both have not lived up to their impressive reputations and need two good games to restore some lost belief.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Wales are more Manic Street Preachers and Scotland more Biffy Clyro !

I used to think Biffy Clyro were Welsh because there were always posters for their gigs around Cardiff.

[tigertattie]

I used to think Biffy Clyro were Welsh because there were always posters for their gigs around Cardiff.

Leave our bands alone.

You have Tom Jones and Cerys Matthews

And you can bloomin well keep em!

[RDW]

I’ll happily take Katrhyn Jenkins though…!

You can have Suzan Boyle.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCyWoI-5xHI

[RubyGuby]

I think Andy Powell for Suzanne Boyle is closer to the mark - I'm sure there's a job for Andy at St Andrew's

[wales606]

Watching the Wales v France game from 2008

Gavin Henson and Tom Shanklin are mentioned at least a dozen times each in the first half - compared to Roberts who touched the ball 4 times in the first half against Italy, and knocked on 3 times, and Davies who didn't even touch the ball until the 2nd half.

Wales need to use their centres against Scotland.

[RubyGuby]

Watching the Wales v France game from 2008

Gavin Henson and Tom Shanklin are mentioned at least a dozen times each in the first half - compared to Roberts who touched the ball 4 times in the first half against Italy, and knocked on 3 times, and Davies who didn't even touch the ball until the 2nd half.

Wales need to use their centres against Scotland.

Yet we beat Italy this year by a more convicing score away than we did France at home in 2008

[wales606]

Watching the Wales v France game from 2008

Gavin Henson and Tom Shanklin are mentioned at least a dozen times each in the first half - compared to Roberts who touched the ball 4 times in the first half against Italy, and knocked on 3 times, and Davies who didn't even touch the ball until the 2nd half.

Wales need to use their centres against Scotland.

Yet we beat Italy this year by a more convicing score away than we did France at home in 2008

I dont think that is an excuse for our centres never touching the ball. Henson sat in the bin for 10 minutes and touched the ball as many times in those 10 minutes as JD2 did in the first half last week

[RubyGuby]

I know where you are going 606 but they are 2 very different games. The conditions were poor in Italy and we needed the win badly and did. As the confidence grows I's expect us to see more ball going throught he hands

[wales606]

Also, in 2008 both centres were good kickers - Shanklin could chip over the defensive line and Henson could boot in miles -- Roberts never kicks and JD2 is a pretty average kicker

The combination of Lee Byrne's solidity under the high ball, the linespeed of the welsh defence and Henson and Byrne's ability to return a kick with 25% interest won Wales a lot of games - now we only have Halfpenny with any of those skills in the backline.

[wales606]

I know where you are going 606 but they are 2 very different games. The conditions were poor in Italy and we needed the win badly and did. As the confidence grows I's expect us to see more ball going throught he hands

When was the last time Roberts and JD2 really got involved in a game? The World Cup?

[tigertattie]

JD2 won you the game last time round imo!

[wales606]

Watching the Wales v France game from 2008

Gavin Henson and Tom Shanklin are mentioned at least a dozen times each in the first half - compared to Roberts who touched the ball 4 times in the first half against Italy, and knocked on 3 times, and Davies who didn't even touch the ball until the 2nd half.

Wales need to use their centres against Scotland.

Yet we beat Italy this year by a more convicing score away than we did France at home in 2008

We beat France by 17pts, we beat Italy by 17pts

[RubyGuby]

Yeah away is always more convincing

[Morgannwg]

Also, in 2008 both centres were good kickers - Shanklin could chip over the defensive line and Henson could boot in miles -- Roberts never kicks and JD2 is a pretty average kicker

The combination of Lee Byrne's solidity under the high ball, the linespeed of the welsh defence and Henson and Byrne's ability to return a kick with 25% interest won Wales a lot of games - now we only have Halfpenny with any of those skills in the backline.

Roberts and Cuthbert are actually pretty good kickers. You're bound to know this if you really do support Blues?

[RubyGuby]

Morg - I have to disagree with that, JD has a nice left peg but Roberts and Cuthbert are poor out of hand. Cuthbert can kick the occasional punt to touch but that's it

[wales606]

Also, in 2008 both centres were good kickers - Shanklin could chip over the defensive line and Henson could boot in miles -- Roberts never kicks and JD2 is a pretty average kicker

The combination of Lee Byrne's solidity under the high ball, the linespeed of the welsh defence and Henson and Byrne's ability to return a kick with 25% interest won Wales a lot of games - now we only have Halfpenny with any of those skills in the backline.

Roberts and Cuthbert are actually pretty good kickers. You're bound to know this if you really do support Blues?

HAHAHHAHAHAHHA

At the start of the season it was obvious Cuthbert had been practicing his kicking and was getting good distance on his return kick - but his accuracy is pretty poor and he hasn't seemed to bother with it since before christmas.

The last time Roberts played for the Blues he might well have kicked when he was playing FB about 5 years ago. For a former FB and wing, Roberts pretty much never kicks, I don't know why, he should be able to, but never does - including for the Blues thanks.

[Morgannwg]

Cuthbert has a big boot, what more do people want, an extra conversion kicker? It's another one of those myths (along with Roberts can't pass or sidestep).

[funnyExiledScot]

Agreed - I'm not a Blues fan but I've seen a fair bit of Roberts and Cuthbert over the years and I wouldn't describe either as "good" kickers, certainly not in the league of say Henson.

I agree with the general point though, and that is that Wales need to find ways of better launching Roberts as a attacking weapon. His strength is that he has quick feet for a big man and can shift weight effortlessly, plus he's pretty quick. It's all been a bit crash bang wallop so far this tournament, and these days you can't rely on basic straight running to punch holes. Both Scott and Lamont are pretty physical, they won't worry about the direct stuff.

[funnyExiledScot]

Cuthbert has a big boot, what more do people want, an extra conversion kicker? It's another one of those myths (along with Roberts can't pass or sidestep).

It's not just about kicking distance for a winger. It's the ability to chip so the ball sits up, or executing an up and under, skills I haven't seen performed by Cuthbert.

Look at top wingers like Jeff Wilson, Ieuan Evans and David Campese (or current international wingers like JOC, Medard, Clerc, Maitland, Jane and Habana). Good all round players, not just strike runners. I think Wales have three top players in Roberts, North and Cuthbert, but there are aspects to their game which are lacking - kicking in particular.

It can be worked on though. Jason Robinson arrived in Union with a terrible kicking game, and became pretty decent at it.

[RubyGuby]

Roberts will take out 2-3 defenders with his straight running its then quick recycle and way to go - Its predictable but still effective- North JD and Cuthbert can do the dynamic damage after Jamie puches a few holes.

[funnyExiledScot]

Roberts will take out 2-3 defenders with his straight running its then quick recycle and way to go - Its predictable but still effective- North JD and Cuthbert can do the dynamic damage after Jamie puches a few holes.

I may live to eat these words, but if Roberts runs straight at either Scott or Lamont, he'll only be taking out one defender, and he won't get much change.

The way through the Scotland midfield is mis-direction and angles, and getting your wingers coming into play. Lamont is a hollywood tackler. He'll look for the big hit, but won't be particularly astute about it. He's an easy defender to suck in, leaving space for others. What not to do is run straight into him. Jean De Villiers once did that and Lamont re-ordered his rib cage, and De Villiers isn't small.

[Morgannwg]

Cuthbert has a big boot, what more do people want, an extra conversion kicker? It's another one of those myths (along with Roberts can't pass or sidestep).

It's not just about kicking distance for a winger. It's the ability to chip so the ball sits up, or executing an up and under, skills I haven't seen performed by Cuthbert.

Look at top wingers like Jeff Wilson, Ieuan Evans and David Campese (or current international wingers like JOC, Medard, Clerc, Maitland, Jane and Habana). Good all round players, not just strike runners. I think Wales have three top players in Roberts, North and Cuthbert, but there are aspects to their game which are lacking - kicking in particular.

It can be worked on though. Jason Robinson arrived in Union with a terrible kicking game, and became pretty decent at it.

I agree with you, but I just don't think it's okay to criticise these guys when they do the basics well enough. Saying that I've never seen North kick the ball for Wales. Also, we used to produce a lot of the little wingers who were good all round players, so I'm hopeful guys like Robinson and Walker can kick on.

[Glas a du]

The Hairy Bikers. One is kneading away on some dough:

"this dough is tight, why is this dough so tight?"

"you probably used the flour of Scotland..."

[funnyExiledScot]

I think every great backline has a balance. For example the mid-90's All Blacks had Bunce and Lomu, neither particularly "all round" players, but then they had Mehrtens, Wilson and Cullen (before that Osborne).

Wales are currently slightly on the powerful and direct side of the scale, and not particularly creative, but I think those soft skills can be developed. Roberts in particular is capable of some great offloads under pressure, and that's exactly the sort of misdirection that'll confuse the equally direct and blunt Lamont.

I think this will be a great contest. I just hope the Scotland backs are more bold than they were against Ireland. Nothing wrong with launching an attack in your own half if it's on, particularly with our back three. Sometimes it's easier to attack from deep when the opposition aren't prepared, than it is to hammer away from inside the opposing 22 with the opposition prepared to defend. Our best tries so far have come from deep, so we shouldn't just box kick everything inside our own half.

[munkian]

Gethins got a boot on him

[maestegmafia]

Just arrived in Edinburgh, real buzz about already...!

Can't wait.

[Glas a du]

Jammy beggar...

"Go on Mog, play for Wales!"

[tigertattie]

Aye its getting exciting!

Might hit the town tonight to see if there are any hot welsh lassies floating about

[Glas a du]

The Luke warm ones are better. They're grateful.

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