Ireland Squad announced for France (O'Gara Axed)

First topic message reminder :

Squad:
Rory Best
Sean Cronin
Robbie Diack
Keith Earls
Luke Fitzgerald
Declan Fitzpatrick
Craig Gilroy
Cian Healy
Jamie Heaslip
Iain Henderson
Paddy Jackson
Dave Kilcoyne
Dave Kearney
Rob Kearney
Ian Madigan
Luke Marshall
Mike McCarthy
Fergus McFadden
Connor Murray
Sean O'Brien
Donncha O'Callaghan
Tommy O'Donnell
Brian O'Driscoll
Peter O'Mahony
Eoin O'Malley
Eoin Reddan
Mike Ross
Donnacha Ryan
Johnathan Sexton
Andrew Trimble
Devin Toner
Dan Tuohy

No ROG......
O'Malley, Tuohy, Diack, D Kearney and Trimble all called up
Court and Stevenson drop out

I would have liked to have seen Steenson, back at Ulster, it would have ment we could rest Jackson more, and have a decent back up.

I mentioned that in the summer but others thought Steenson was about the same level as NOC, and it was easier to bring NOC back.

Of course even if Ulster made a move for Steenson, theres no saying he would have wanted to leave Chiefs.

The problem for Ireland was behind Sexton there was no 24-29 year old back up. ROG was to old and Jackson, to young. It should have been Madigan and he should have been involved with the national team a year or two ago, maybe played against Samoia in 2010 instead of ROG.

BelfastDickVet wrote:Hahahahaha you post a Peter Bills article and you expect people to take your argument serious! The man is a fool.

I posted an article that had quotes from two players:

What did Ibanez think of O'Gara and Munster's performance last weekend? "Munster played with so much experience and you could spot the difference between a team that has been in the Heineken Cup for the last two years and a team like Munster.

"They were on the back foot in the first half, but they came back with some brilliant phases, especially the match-winner O'Gara. He is eternal, quite incredible. Immortal even. That's the kind of player you want to have in your team."

From the lips of Castres' beaten captain, ex-All Black Chris Masoe, came a similar tribute. "It came down to experience and being patient with the ball. In games like this when the going gets tough you have to rely on your most experienced players to deliver. And a guy like O'Gara does that every week."

From what is picked I am hoping to see:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
04 Iain Henderson
05 Donnacha Ryan
06 Sean O'Brien
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)
09 Conor Murray
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Keith Earls
12 Luke Marshall
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Declan Fitzpatrick
19 Donncha O'Callaghan
20 Peter O'Mahony
21 Eoin Reddan
22 Ian Madigan
23 Fergus McFadden

I think the balance of our bench was completely wrong last week with Devin Toner being considered a replacement second row and Henderson covering backrow.

O'Callaghan on bench is a good impact sub and Henderson brings a lot to the table. I also think that versatile O'Mahony would benefit from being benched and O'Donnell would really bring a lot to the table.

McFadden at #23 covers wing and centre and Madigan has got fullback and flyhalf covered. Earls messed up against Scotland but his raw pace is needed on the wing. I think he is our best option on left wing at moment.

Kingshu wrote:I would have liked to have seen Steenson, back at Ulster, it would have ment we could rest Jackson more, and have a decent back up.

I mentioned that in the summer but others thought Steenson was about the same level as NOC, and it was easier to bring NOC back.

Of course even if Ulster made a move for Steenson, theres no saying he would have wanted to leave Chiefs.

The problem for Ireland was behind Sexton there was no 24-29 year old back up. ROG was to old and Jackson, to young. It should have been Madigan and he should have been involved with the national team a year or two ago, maybe played against Samoia in 2010 instead of ROG.

Madigan was lucky that whoever Leinster brought in as back-up outhalf got injured (Beirne I think). He had 7 starts for Leinster in 2010 (Magners) and got his 1 start in the HCup in 11-12 season. He was 4th choice place kicker up to this season (Sexton, McFadden, Nacewa, Madigan) so that he wouldn't be pressurised for Leinster in the Magners. Samoa wasn't an option then.

red_stag wrote:From what is picked I am hoping to see:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
04 Iain Henderson
05 Donnacha Ryan
06 Sean O'Brien
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)
09 Conor Murray
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Keith Earls
12 Luke Marshall
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Declan Fitzpatrick
19 Donncha O'Callaghan
20 Peter O'Mahony
21 Eoin Reddan
22 Ian Madigan
23 Fergus McFadden

I think the balance of our bench was completely wrong last week with Devin Toner being considered a replacement second row and Henderson covering backrow.

O'Callaghan on bench is a good impact sub and Henderson brings a lot to the table. I also think that versatile O'Mahony would benefit from being benched and O'Donnell would really bring a lot to the table.

McFadden at #23 covers wing and centre and Madigan has got fullback and flyhalf covered. Earls messed up against Scotland but his raw pace is needed on the wing. I think he is our best option on left wing at moment.

I would be quite happy with that team. I dont know enough about Tommy O'Donnell but I'm certainly not sold at all on peter O'Mahony yet. Would never doubt his comitment and desire but not sure how effective he is, yet anyway.

I always like to see earls' name on the teamsheet but I would consider having McFadden on the wing for his kicking. Mind you the French wingers are Clerc (elusive) and Fall (huge) so it might be a tough day for our wingers.

Sin é wrote:

Madigan was lucky that whoever Leinster brought in as back-up outhalf got injured (Beirne I think). He had 7 starts for Leinster in 2010 (Magners) and got his 1 start in the HCup in 11-12 season. He was 4th choice place kicker up to this season (Sexton, McFadden, Nacewa, Madigan) so that he wouldn't be pressurised for Leinster in the Magners. Samoa wasn't an option then.

Of course it was an option. Sure Paddy Wallace started at centre. He could have taken the kicks if necessary.

Also there was a lot of experementation with Sexton at 1st centre and ROG at OH. Why not let Madigan start OH and Sexton at 1st centre. It it all went pear shaped bring on a centre and move Sexton to OH.

Gibson wrote:But Notch, it would be nice to have the full set. A la Carter. Why limit ourselves to any individual players limitations? It is counter-productive.

If Paddy Jackson cant nail over 80% of his international place-kicks, on a regular basis, he will fail at an International level. As will Madigan.

Oh yeah. I think he will though. Right now, we're going to have to persevere with him and Madigan as they are inexperienced. I feel Jackson will get to that with time and practice and he has everything else.

red_stag wrote:From what is picked I am hoping to see:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
04 Iain Henderson
05 Donnacha Ryan
06 Sean O'Brien
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)
09 Conor Murray
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Keith Earls
12 Luke Marshall
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Dave Kilcoyne
18 Declan Fitzpatrick
19 Donncha O'Callaghan
20 Peter O'Mahony
21 Eoin Reddan
22 Ian Madigan
23 Fergus McFadden

Iain Henderson has been considerably more impressive as a blindside than a lock thus far. I would only consider him as a blindside for Ireland, albeit I expect him to move to lock full-time in a year or two.

I hate O'Gara!

There - it's now official.

I hate him because just as you feel oh so righteous in demanding the only just solution to one of Ireland's major concerns, just as you join the rabble and seek his execution - in public, ... with the tar and feathers added for texture....

...the absolute Basteraud ups and turns in a pretty neat and tasty display at the weekend....and makes you hate yourself for having wronged such a Knight of ye Olde Irish days...................

Why Ronan? Why?!!!! - Why do you continue to torment us so????

Notch wrote:

Gibson wrote:But Notch, it would be nice to have the full set. A la Carter. Why limit ourselves to any individual players limitations? It is counter-productive.

If Paddy Jackson cant nail over 80% of his international place-kicks, on a regular basis, he will fail at an International level. As will Madigan.

Oh yeah. I think he will though. Right now, we're going to have to persevere with him and Madigan as they are inexperienced. I feel Jackson will get to that with time and practice and he has everything else.

Would you say Dan Biggar, Quade Cooper, Trinh Duc and Lambie are failures at international level. All good players but dont tend to take the kicks for their teams.

Why does the OH always have to take the kicks?

Why cant we do what most other international teams do and have multiple kickers in the same team.

Ok maybe not Madigan but Keatley or Ian Humphrys, someone in the same age bracket as Sexton, cos we really have no back up in the generations ecept for young
Old ROG
Current Sexton
young Jackson, Keatley, Madigan

No dept in current level is the issue

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

Gibson wrote:But Notch, it would be nice to have the full set. A la Carter. Why limit ourselves to any individual players limitations? It is counter-productive.

If Paddy Jackson cant nail over 80% of his international place-kicks, on a regular basis, he will fail at an International level. As will Madigan.

Oh yeah. I think he will though. Right now, we're going to have to persevere with him and Madigan as they are inexperienced. I feel Jackson will get to that with time and practice and he has everything else.

Would you say Dan Biggar, Quade Cooper, Trinh Duc and Lambie are failures at international level. All good players but dont tend to take the kicks for their teams.

Why does the OH always have to take the kicks?

Why cant we do what most other international teams do and have multiple kickers in the same team.

Why are there not more players taking kicks? Is it they couldn't be bothered putting the practice in or they haven't got the balls for it? You only have to look at all the poor kicking that we see nowadays from the boot so maybe it is not as easy as O'Gara made it look. Outside Carter, even NZ had difficulties with their kicking. Brock James can completely collapse at times for Clermont as well.

A kicker is a bit like a Tighhead in the way they can affect their team. A good hit/kick (or miss) early in the game can make all the difference to confidence levels.

I think kicking is actually quite easy. All it takes is a lot of practice. Thats why Wilkinson, Flood and Farrell are all so good at it.

Its quite simple really just practice. With enough practice the process becomes very mechanical and routine. O'Gara, Wilko, Farrell, they go through the exact same routine every time.

I have no idea why we dont use multiple kickers. It is very annoying. I also really think we need to employ Dave Alred. There isnt a better practice coach in the whole world.

His training methods in golf (luke Donald & Padraic Harrington) and rugby kicking (Jonny Wilkinson, Flood, Farrell) have been extremly effective. Even when the RFU dropped Alred Wilko used to employ him himself to practice kicking after training.

For years Wilkinson has stayed back after training just to practice kicks. Why cant our guys do this? Its not like they actually have to work long hours.

What's happened to Chris Henry? Is he injured?

Haven't heard of this Tommy O'Donnell lad. Any good?

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

Gibson wrote:But Notch, it would be nice to have the full set. A la Carter. Why limit ourselves to any individual players limitations? It is counter-productive.

If Paddy Jackson cant nail over 80% of his international place-kicks, on a regular basis, he will fail at an International level. As will Madigan.

Oh yeah. I think he will though. Right now, we're going to have to persevere with him and Madigan as they are inexperienced. I feel Jackson will get to that with time and practice and he has everything else.

Would you say Dan Biggar, Quade Cooper, Trinh Duc and Lambie are failures at international level. All good players but dont tend to take the kicks for their teams.

Why does the OH always have to take the kicks?

Why cant we do what most other international teams do and have multiple kickers in the same team.

Why are there not more players taking kicks? Is it they couldn't be bothered putting the practice in or they haven't got the balls for it? You only have to look at all the poor kicking that we see nowadays from the boot so maybe it is not as easy as O'Gara made it look. Outside Carter, even NZ had difficulties with their kicking. Brock James can completely collapse at times for Clermont as well.

A kicker is a bit like a Tighhead in the way they can affect their team. A good hit/kick (or miss) early in the game can make all the difference to confidence levels.

Indeed, but the point I was making has got lost I feel.

Every team needs a good 10, and every team needs a good place kicker. If they are one and the same, all well and good. But a team with a good place kicker and no-one capable of playing the role of 10 will be limited (Ireland with O'Gara) and a team with no place kicker and a good 10 will also be limited (Ireland with Jackson last time out).

The difference is a 21 year-old can be expected to improve whereas a 36-year old cannot and there is every reason to expect that Jackson will bring his kicking ratio up- in fact, it was madness he was given the kicking tee after not kicking for months. Hopefully the Treviso game will have boosted his confidence. But in Ireland it seems we judge the 10 on place kicking.

There is a damaging assumption there;

1) The 10 and the place kicker must always be the same.
2) Therefore, the main role of the 10 is to kick the points.

It's damaging because it means we don't look to bring through place kickers in other positions! In Australia you often have two or three place kickers in the team normally at 10, 12 and 15. If we put more emphasis on training a few of our outside backs and scrum-halves as place kickers, we wouldn't need to solely rely on a 10 for place kicking- and we wouldn't need to pick a worse 10 purely for his place kicking abilities.

Were Kearney or Murray developed into competent place kickers, we could have all the benefits of Jackson- who is now better at every facet of 10 play than ROG- without having to worry about his place kicking until he finds his feet at test level. For that reason alone I would have picked McFadden against Scotland.

But I would still hand Jackson the tee initially on Saturday. Too aid his development as a kicker.

Luke Marshall was a out half, I am sure he could brush up on his kicking skills if required.

GunsGerms wrote:I think kicking is actually quite easy. All it takes is a lot of practice. Thats why Wilkinson, Flood and Farrell are all so good at it.

Its quite simple really just practice. With enough practice the process becomes very mechanical and routine. O'Gara, Wilko, Farrell, they go through the exact same routine every time.

I have no idea why we dont use multiple kickers. It is very annoying. I also really think we need to employ Dave Alred. There isnt a better practice coach in the whole world.

His training methods in golf (luke Donald & Padraic Harrington) and rugby kicking (Jonny Wilkinson, Flood, Farrell) have been extremly effective. Even when the RFU dropped Alred Wilko used to employ him himself to practice kicking after training.

For years Wilkinson has stayed back after training just to practice kicks. Why cant our guys do this? Its not like they actually have to work long hours.

Your comments probably give some answers to some of the questions you raise.

Problem is if a player needs to practice, practice, practice to improve his kicking stats, then that requires.......... well, practice - off, yes, but more especially on the field of play (practice will never give you the atmosphere of playing in a pressure game with a crowd). So then, I guess that's why the job is given to one player (type) so that he can put in the time required to get good at it.

If you spread out the duties of kicker to take the pressure off so-so kickers then that would present two problems - 1. the first choice kicker isn't getting enough match day practice. 2. The other players who take on board kicking duties have to practice more at it to hone the skills. That eats into their more defined 'job specification' practice.

Plus - I actually think a lot of the issues that arise between good kickers and not so good ones is............... a knowing lack of absolute honesty. I mean to say, people like O'Gara probably hold back on some of the real little tricks of the trade when 'helping out' other kickers. I'd even advance that David Alred says certain things to certain players that he might not necessarily give to others. Sorry, but I'm a cynical guy when it comes to how knowledge gets passed around and how people and teams keep an edge.

So, sometimes rookies must learn their own real lessons...the true ones...from experience...... practice.

bluestonevedder wrote:What's happened to Chris Henry? Is he injured?

Haven't heard of this Tommy O'Donnell lad. Any good?

Yes Chris Henry is injured. O'Donnell is a Munster lad, he has been in great form this season.

Cheers Red Stag

Shame for Henry- I think he's an excellent player. Looking forward to seeing how O'Donnell goes if he is to start.

Ireland seem to have decent depth in their backrow.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

Gibson wrote:But Notch, it would be nice to have the full set. A la Carter. Why limit ourselves to any individual players limitations? It is counter-productive.

If Paddy Jackson cant nail over 80% of his international place-kicks, on a regular basis, he will fail at an International level. As will Madigan.

Oh yeah. I think he will though. Right now, we're going to have to persevere with him and Madigan as they are inexperienced. I feel Jackson will get to that with time and practice and he has everything else.

Would you say Dan Biggar, Quade Cooper, Trinh Duc and Lambie are failures at international level. All good players but dont tend to take the kicks for their teams.

Why does the OH always have to take the kicks?

Why cant we do what most other international teams do and have multiple kickers in the same team.

Why are there not more players taking kicks? Is it they couldn't be bothered putting the practice in or they haven't got the balls for it? You only have to look at all the poor kicking that we see nowadays from the boot so maybe it is not as easy as O'Gara made it look. Outside Carter, even NZ had difficulties with their kicking. Brock James can completely collapse at times for Clermont as well.

A kicker is a bit like a Tighhead in the way they can affect their team. A good hit/kick (or miss) early in the game can make all the difference to confidence levels.

Indeed, but the point I was making has got lost I feel.

Every team needs a good 10, and every team needs a good place kicker. If they are one and the same, all well and good. But a team with a good place kicker and no-one capable of playing the role of 10 will be limited (Ireland with O'Gara) and a team with no place kicker and a good 10 will also be limited (Ireland with Jackson last time out).

The difference is a 21 year-old can be expected to improve whereas a 36-year old cannot and there is every reason to expect that Jackson will bring his kicking ratio up- in fact, it was madness he was given the kicking tee after not kicking for months. Hopefully the Treviso game will have boosted his confidence. But in Ireland it seems we judge the 10 on place kicking.

There is a damaging assumption there;

1) The 10 and the place kicker must always be the same.
2) Therefore, the main role of the 10 is to kick the points.

It's damaging because it means we don't look to bring through place kickers in other positions! In Australia you often have two or three place kickers in the team normally at 10, 12 and 15. If we put more emphasis on training a few of our outside backs and scrum-halves as place kickers, we wouldn't need to solely rely on a 10 for place kicking- and we wouldn't need to pick a worse 10 purely for his place kicking abilities.

Were Kearney or Murray developed into competent place kickers, we could have all the benefits of Jackson- who is now better at every facet of 10 play than ROG- without having to worry about his place kicking until he finds his feet at test level. For that reason alone I would have picked McFadden against Scotland.

But I would still hand Jackson the tee initially on Saturday. Too aid his development as a kicker.

Paddy Jackson is a competent player - nothing more. He needs to improve bigtime to be even fit to lace the boots of O'Gara.

If its so easy and all it takes is practice, why are there not more players doing it? Why did Sexton have such a difficult time with regard to his place kicking for the first 2 seasons of his international career although he seemed to be ok at club level?

No, he doesn't Sin. See, in 2013, O'Gara just isn't very good anymore. We're not talking about O'Gara is 2007 or whenever you judge his pomp to be. We're talking current day. And even you must admit O'Gara should have reired before it came to this.

Jackson is taking the ball to the line better, distributing better, interesting defences a lot more, making better decisions, getting more distance from his kicks from hand. Only thing ROG has over him is place kicking. Literally, the only thing.

And thats just not enough to merit being selected to represent Ireland. The past doesn't matter- it's in the past where it belongs.

GunsGerms wrote:I have no idea why we dont use multiple kickers. It is very annoying. I also really think we need to employ Dave Alred. There isnt a better practice coach in the whole world.

His training methods in golf (luke Donald & Padraic Harrington) and rugby kicking (Jonny Wilkinson, Flood, Farrell) have been extremly effective. Even when the RFU dropped Alred Wilko used to employ him himself to practice kicking after training.

For years Wilkinson has stayed back after training just to practice kicks. Why cant our guys do this? Its not like they actually have to work long hours.

ROG and Sexton haved used Alred (though I'm not sure how successful Alred has been with Harrington). Mark Tainton has been ROG's kicking coach since 2002. He is Ireland's kicking coach.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/harrington-backing-rugby-guru-to-help-kickstart-his-revival-26811393.html

From the Volvo Champions event, Harrington heads for Abu Dhabi and a crucial get-together with English kicking coach Dave Alred, who has Ireland rugby outhalf Jonathan Sexton among his clients. The move effectively dates back to the practice ground at Killarney during last July's Irish Open when he talked about making changes to his backroom staff after disclosing that he was splitting with long-term coach Bob Torrance.

Alred was targeted as one of those changes, and Harrington met him twice that weekend, the second when he was working with Sexton on the Sunday. "Now the plan is to have a trial week with Dave while I compete in Abu Dhabi and again the following week when I'll be taking a break," he said. "If those two contrasting trial periods work out, he'll become my practice coach, designing drills that will help me transfer my form in practice onto the golf course."

Notch wrote:No, he doesn't Sin. See, in 2013, O'Gara just isn't very good anymore. We're not talking about O'Gara is 2007 or whenever you judge his pomp to be. We're talking current day. And even you must admit O'Gara should have reired before it came to this.

Jackson is taking the ball to the line better, distributing better, interesting defences a lot more, making better decisions, getting more distance from his kicks from hand. Only thing ROG has over him is place kicking. Literally, the only thing.

And thats just not enough to merit being selected to represent Ireland. The past doesn't matter- it's in the past where it belongs.

Jackson has played one game - lets see how he gets on when he is analysed as much as O'Gara. It won't be long until he is even more ineffectual.

You talk of Jackson as being the finished article now in everything bar place kicking. If that is the benchmark in outhalf play, then god help Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:No, he doesn't Sin. See, in 2013, O'Gara just isn't very good anymore. We're not talking about O'Gara is 2007 or whenever you judge his pomp to be. We're talking current day. And even you must admit O'Gara should have reired before it came to this.

Jackson is taking the ball to the line better, distributing better, interesting defences a lot more, making better decisions, getting more distance from his kicks from hand. Only thing ROG has over him is place kicking. Literally, the only thing.

And thats just not enough to merit being selected to represent Ireland. The past doesn't matter- it's in the past where it belongs.

Jackson has played one game - lets see how he gets on when he is analysed as much as O'Gara. It won't be long until he is even more ineffectual.

You talk of Jackson as being the finished article now in everything bar place kicking. If that is the benchmark in outhalf play, then god help Ireland.

No, the best reason for picking him apart from been a better player than Rog Atm is the fact that he will only get better in all aspects of his play.

He is far from the finished article that why people are excited by him and Madigan because they are currently better than O Gara and they will only get better

Being better than O'Gara at the moment (questionable) is hardly a reason to get excited.

So does Trimble have a chance of starting this one.

Earls missed two good chances last week, but he did play well enough,

Trimble has been in better form this season, and much better form recently, now DK has recalled him to the squad (for the 2nd time) does he have a chance of starting?

his tackling is very good and if Mathieu Bastareaud is starting good tackling backs will be needed.

Sin é wrote:Being better than O'Gara at the moment (questionable) is hardly a reason to get excited.

i really can't see why you think O'Gara is still the best option for Ireland. he has been a true Ireland great but he has not played well since christmas. he was poor against england (i understand coming in at that point of the match is tough) and even worse against Scotland.

might I suggest not enough stuffing??????

Stag I get your point based on your team and the bench from last week.

Henderson is a better option at 6 though and probably deserves a shot over POM based on the last few performances.

I agree that Toner should not be playing at the moment (and I am/was a Toner fan) but Tuohy looked good on Friday night and I think he should be put on to the bench ahead of Toner and that may give it more umph.

I think Earls is pretty close to being dropped although I'd stick with him.

Ps: Any writings from Conor George on the subject of ROG so far?

Still delighted Madigan should get his chance.

Kidney himelf said after the Scottish game that "there are two sides to a flyhalf, the goal kicking and everything else."

WHAT!?!?!?!

Parra, JOC, Beale, Bergamasco, Laidlaw, Halfpenny all excellent kickers in different positions

Likewise you'd say Trinh Duc, Cooper, Jackson, Priestland are all perfectly good outhalves.

@dan_tuohy
Thx for the msgs of support, i ran as a french winger & prop today, fingers crossed for selection #positivity

Unless Henderson is covering second row, it sounds like it'll be Toner again

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

Sin é wrote:Being better than O'Gara at the moment (questionable) is hardly a reason to get excited.

i really can't see why you think O'Gara is still the best option for Ireland. he has been a true Ireland great but he has not played well since christmas. he was poor against england (i understand coming in at that point of the match is tough) and even worse against Scotland.

I don't think O'Gara is the best option for Ireland. Its a bit soon though to deify his replacement who isn't much better.

It is and it isn't a reason to get excited.

It is because finally we're seeing some young talent get given a go. And it isn't because the new generation will need time, space and patience to grow as players and reach their potential at test level. No-one is 'deifying' anybody. You want to see deification go read Conor George. This is a rugby forum, we're just excited the tried and tested and failed options are being traded for something that might work and long-term investment in the future of the national team.

Frankly, I don't really expect us to beat France. I think there are problems way beyond the selection issues at 10 that are undermining this Ireland team. But I'm still excited to see how we perform.

As for talking about Jackson being the finished article, that is patently bollox. The lad is going to improve in every area of his game with time and experience. He's better than ROG because ROG has become that bad this season in every area.

Groin-grabbingly bad

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag I get your point based on your team and the bench from last week.

Henderson is a better option at 6 though and probably deserves a shot over POM based on the last few performances.

I agree that Toner should not be playing at the moment (and I am/was a Toner fan) but Tuohy looked good on Friday night and I think he should be put on to the bench ahead of Toner and that may give it more umph.

I think Earls is pretty close to being dropped although I'd stick with him.

Ps: Any writings from Conor George on the subject of ROG so far?

Still delighted Madigan should get his chance.

Kidney himelf said after the Scottish game that "there are two sides to a flyhalf, the goal kicking and everything else."

WHAT!?!?!?!

Parra, JOC, Beale, Bergamasco, Laidlaw, Halfpenny all excellent kickers in different positions

Likewise you'd say Trinh Duc, Cooper, Jackson, Priestland are all perfectly good outhalves.

The trouble for the Ireland coach though is that Parra, JOC, Beale, Bergamasco, Laidlaw & Halfpenny all play for other countries so its not possible to get them to take Paddy Jackson's kicks.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag I get your point based on your team and the bench from last week.

Henderson is a better option at 6 though and probably deserves a shot over POM based on the last few performances.

I agree that Toner should not be playing at the moment (and I am/was a Toner fan) but Tuohy looked good on Friday night and I think he should be put on to the bench ahead of Toner and that may give it more umph.

I think Earls is pretty close to being dropped although I'd stick with him.

Ps: Any writings from Conor George on the subject of ROG so far?

Still delighted Madigan should get his chance.

Kidney himelf said after the Scottish game that "there are two sides to a flyhalf, the goal kicking and everything else."

WHAT!?!?!?!

Parra, JOC, Beale, Bergamasco, Laidlaw, Halfpenny all excellent kickers in different positions

Likewise you'd say Trinh Duc, Cooper, Jackson, Priestland are all perfectly good outhalves.

The trouble for the Ireland coach though is that Parra, JOC, Beale, Bergamasco, Laidlaw & Halfpenny all play for other countries so its not possible to get them to take Paddy Jackson's kicks.

Oh, my sides! I think I'm right in saying that Parra, Bergamasco and Halfpenny all started kicking because their 10s were not excellent kickers, so why can't Ireland do the same?

You really are a clown Sin

I can't decide whether you're deliberately misinterpreting posts to be mischievous or just not very clever.

red_stag wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: Is Steenson on the Irish radar or not - Pretty solid out half and very competent goal kicker

To be honest I hope he isn't. We have a number of promising flyhalves who will learn and develop internationally behind Sexton.

- Ian Madigan
- Ian Keatley
- JJ Hanrahan
- Paddy Jackson

I am wary of Steenson in that all we have to go by is solid performances in the Premiership. Having seen the lack of impact that the likes of James Downey and Johne Murphy have had in Munster despite being very good Premiership players I would hesitate in bringing in Steenson.

Better decide quickly:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9905939/Gareth-Steenson-tipped-for-England-chance-by-Exeter-Chiefs-coach-Rob-Baxter-after-kicking-Quins-into-touch.html

Steenson might prefer to try for Ireland. Ireland has one top class 10. England have three, with a few up and coming.

JmD wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag I get your point based on your team and the bench from last week.

Henderson is a better option at 6 though and probably deserves a shot over POM based on the last few performances.

I agree that Toner should not be playing at the moment (and I am/was a Toner fan) but Tuohy looked good on Friday night and I think he should be put on to the bench ahead of Toner and that may give it more umph.

I think Earls is pretty close to being dropped although I'd stick with him.

Ps: Any writings from Conor George on the subject of ROG so far?

Still delighted Madigan should get his chance.

Kidney himelf said after the Scottish game that "there are two sides to a flyhalf, the goal kicking and everything else."

WHAT!?!?!?!

Parra, JOC, Beale, Bergamasco, Laidlaw, Halfpenny all excellent kickers in different positions

Likewise you'd say Trinh Duc, Cooper, Jackson, Priestland are all perfectly good outhalves.

The trouble for the Ireland coach though is that Parra, JOC, Beale, Bergamasco, Laidlaw & Halfpenny all play for other countries so its not possible to get them to take Paddy Jackson's kicks.

Oh, my sides! I think I'm right in saying that Parra, Bergamasco and Halfpenny all started kicking because their 10s were not excellent kickers, so why can't Ireland do the same?

Sweet baby jesus.
Can you now understand why it is hard to take you seriously?

JmD wrote:@dan_tuohy
Thx for the msgs of support, i ran as a french winger & prop today, fingers crossed for selection #positivity

Unless Henderson is covering second row, it sounds like it'll be Toner again

Jesus that must be heart breaking. Forgive me for asking but why aren't our back up wingers and props running as reserve props?
Surely Earls or Gilroy are going to dance around Dan Tuohy if he appears isolated on the wing and surely you can not do live scrummaging without two fully competetive front rows.

#Bizzare

Alex_Germany wrote:

Steenson might prefer to try for Ireland. Ireland has one top class 10. England have three, with a few up and coming.

England have what they have.... but as Stag has alluded to, the English based Irish players don't always do the business when they get transported back here.

Ireland have one top class 10 based on International judgement of those looking in. Jackson or Madigan, or the others mentioned by Stag, have a few good games and instantly they join the list. It's ironically quite easy to get onto those lists of top class after a few eye catching performances. And easy to fall off them too when things hit the fan. Top class is in the eye of the beholder and results.

Does anyone else think that Dan Tuohy post is completely mad!?

Maybe it was a case of a prop missing a training session or something and he filled in.

It would signal that McCarthy and Ryan are fit though and most likely Toner is seen as a better option.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

JmD wrote:@dan_tuohy
Thx for the msgs of support, i ran as a french winger & prop today, fingers crossed for selection #positivity

Unless Henderson is covering second row, it sounds like it'll be Toner again

Jesus that must be heart breaking. Forgive me for asking but why aren't our back up wingers and props running as reserve props?
Surely Earls or Gilroy are going to dance around Dan Tuohy if he appears isolated on the wing and surely you can not do live scrummaging without two fully competetive front rows.

#Bizzare

From IRFU press conference looks like Gilroy is going to miss out because of his groin injury. Otherwise, D Ryan & Mike McCarthy will probably be fit (McCarthy trained on Friday and D Ryan started training today).

So now Kidney can start McFaddan on the wing to take Jackson's kicks. Trimble to lose out.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

JmD wrote:@dan_tuohy
Thx for the msgs of support, i ran as a french winger & prop today, fingers crossed for selection #positivity

Unless Henderson is covering second row, it sounds like it'll be Toner again

Jesus that must be heart breaking. Forgive me for asking but why aren't our back up wingers and props running as reserve props?
Surely Earls or Gilroy are going to dance around Dan Tuohy if he appears isolated on the wing and surely you can not do live scrummaging without two fully competetive front rows.

#Bizzare

From IRFU press conference looks like Gilroy is going to miss out because of his groin injury. Otherwise, D Ryan & Mike McCarthy will probably be fit (McCarthy trained on Friday and D Ryan started training today).


So now Kidney can start McFaddan on the wing to take Jackson's kicks. Trimble to lose out.

Might happen, but I think Deccie, and Jackson himself, will want Jackson to take the kicks. Why else would Deccie have requested Ulster to play him taking kicks at the weekend?
Don't know if Trimble will be played. On present form he deserves it, but then form isn't always taken into account is it?

Jackson will take the kicks but Mcfadden will be able to step in if required.

If form was the deciding factor we'd have a different 15 every time Ireland plays!

I think that might be what Ireland need most - a 'form' coach...and a 'sustainer' coach...and a 'man as machine like wot the English do' coach.

Mick Kearney didn't say Gilroy is likely to miss out- they said he's a concern and has only trained lightly.

Honestly, I wish you would stop taking 2 and 2 and coming up with 5. According to Kearney Gilroy is a doubt. Sexton is a big doubt. McCarthy is in good shape and Ryan is making good progress.

GunsGerms wrote:Jackson will take the kicks but Mcfadden will be able to step in if required.

If Mcfadden is on I would think that's the plan. Hopefully he won't be needed to though. Jackson could do with a good kicking game on Saturday to help with his confidence. He has the ability ok. He just needs to do it in green.

Notch wrote:Mick Kearney didn't say Gilroy is likely to miss out- they said he's a concern and has only trained lightly.

Honestly, I wish you would stop taking 2 and 2 and coming up with 5. According to Kearney Gilroy is a doubt. Sexton is a big doubt. McCarthy is in good shape and Ryan is making good progress.

Kearney said:

Second rows Donnacha Ryan (shoulder) and Mike McCarthy (knee) have made quicker progress in their respective recoveries and Kearney said the pair are both on course to be fit for Saturday's clash.

"Craig obviously came off during the game against Scotland and trained very lightly last week and this morning, so there would be some concern about him as well. He has a groin strain that is still troubling him a little bit."

"Johnny made good progress last week and over the weekend. As of now he has not been ruled out. We are happy with how he has gone but he is still at best a 50/50 call.

They are naming the team tomorrow at lunchtime and Gilroy hasn't trained fully in a week.

Yes, and you're making the assumption he won't be named in the team

Multiple times in the past Ireland have named teams with players given time to recover from niggling injuries. You've once again inferred a 'fact' which is based on assumptions.

Notch wrote:Yes, and you're making the assumption he won't be named in the team

Multiple times in the past Ireland have named teams with players given time to recover from niggling injuries. You've once again inferred a 'fact' which is based on assumptions.

They hold a place for players like Brian O'Driscoll & Paul O'Connell - not someone like Craig Gilroy as there are numerous able replacements.