Harrington on anchoring... and grooves

I know at times he can go on and on and on... but it's always worth listening to Paddy's thoughts:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/padraig-insists-pga-tour-must-play-by-the-rules-224555.html

I think he's making a very good point there and would love to hear Finchem answering his question as to why the PGA Tour never took a similar stance when the old grooves were banned...

The same point occurred to me, but the difference in my view is that the groove rule change affected everyone's equipment (wedges) - whether they could take best advantage of the old grooves or not.

The proposed anchoring change effectively only affects those players who use belly/broomhandle putters.

What I don't have a feel for is which might be the better precedent for a hypothetical ball roll-back in future.

I think he has makes a good point. The actual argument for and against putters is one thing but I firmly believe that there should be one set of rules for everyone in golf. One of the great things about this game is that in theory you can all compete together thanks to handicaps and this is a step towards that ending.

Having a body like the PGAT setting rules when they are dealing with such a small part of the sport is wrong for the game at large. They can also be influenced by the manufacturers too much as well and I really think that is a dangerous route to go down. I am fairly sure that the big manufacturers are influencing Finchem here as they see that if they can set a precedent here (no big deal for them financially in the putter row) then the one they really care about with the ball and driver will be easier to defeat.

I don't think anyone has suggested yet that the PGA Tour will not comply.
They have commented during the "comments" period and that's surely as far as it goes, until and/or unless the USGA/RandA move forward unilaterally.

The big issue in the U.S. is not taking anchoring out of the pros' hands, but out of the hands of amateurs who might then choose to give up the game.
Don't underestimate the PGA Of America in all this . . . . . .

When Finchem hijacked the final of the WGC Matchplay to announce the PGA Tour's position, it was frustrating to see the way the commentators missed the opportunity to properly challenge him.

His key point was that the Tour did not feel that anchoring gave a significant advantage...and no one asked "In that case, what's the problem with banning it?".

I'm not really for or against the ban - I'm reasonably ambivalent about it now, but I dislike poor logic and lazy commentary.

Kwini, I get the feeling that anchored putters are far more popular in the States than they are in Europe.

Is this why you feel that the PGA of America (essentially teaching pros?) are more likely to be against a ban? I assume that they will have been involved in the consultation and have a reasonable weight behind them just not so vocal in the press.

Thinking of my club which has about 450 members I would guess there are only a few players that use them. Although one is a scratch golfer who says it saved his game and another off about 12 and said the same.

Both examples show both sides of the argument as both would probably have given up the game but obviously they show the advantage gained.

289,
The "100 Leading Teaching Pros" came out 63 - 37 in favour of rejecting the ban, not sure what the full body's vote was, or even if they conducted one.

The big thing to me is not: to ban or not to ban. It's to collaborate and secure the best resolution for everyone. To me, that's what has been so conspicuously lacking, hence my sympathy with the PGA Tour view, and that of the PGA Of America, whose boss, a guy called Ted Bishop, is up for fighting.

Plus the fact that I sincerely doubt the holier-than-thou integrity image portrayed by the USGA and RandA.

I would say that, if both institutions are serious about what they're up to they would ban the use of anchoring, and limit the length of putters, in all their competitions with immediate effect and let the pros sort things out for themselves.

Let the amateurs "bifurcate", if that's what individuals want to do; just not in USGA and RandA competition.

But I also see greater evils that are not being addressed, jumbo drivers, exocet balls and slow play all being of far more significance to the well-being of the game than anchored putters.

For myself, I don't care if some amateurs give up the game if their cheat sticks are taken away. If they can't hack a difficult sport, maybe tiddly-winks would suit better?
Those that genuinely would have to give up due to some injury I have a bit of sympathy with but people have to give things up all the time due to age/injury. It's a fact of life no matter how unfortunate it might be.

Why do you doubt the motives of the USGA/R&A, Kwini?
I'd agree with you on drivers, balls etc but why is that an argument for not addressing the cheat sticks now?

kwinigolfer wrote:289,
But I also see greater evils that are not being addressed, jumbo drivers, exocet balls and slow play all being of far more significance to the well-being of the game than anchored putters.

Totally agree with your last point there. That goes back to what I was saying about the manufacturers getting in on this one as, if they can make this one into a mess then getting future changes through will be more difficult.

As for slow play I cannot understand why that isn't dealt with as its pretty easy. Its already in the laws and would be largely liked. As a viewer on TV it has make me turn over on a few occasions.

I really can't understand why the ban of long putters would make amateurs give up the game. It is only a game after all. Surely they can still enjoy the game even if they can't use long putters.

kwini ... all the governing bodies are doing now is banning a method which should have been banned three or so decades ago. Please remember that ctts change too and just because a blind eye was turned back then doesn't mean to say it isn't the right thing to do now.

Yippers who really love the game will find a way to putt. In my case, it was switching from right to left-handed.

Yippers are just weak and a pathetic excuse for putting differently. Nothing to do with your tools, all between the ears.

the more i read and think about this, the more i think the randa and usga are spot on with their assessment. ban anchoring. done.

there still seems to be some confusion on certain reports (and on here), that long putters are being banned. it's just the method of anchoring that will be banned...not long putters - though limiting clublength to 4 foot would also be something worth looking at perhaps.

Trying to be devil's advocate here, because I genuinely don't think this is as black and white as some would have it.

navy,
I just think the USGA/RandA are so rolling in money right now they are a little carried away with their own self-aggrandisement. Peter Dawson, for instance, continually seems to expect the world to be full of the obsequiousness towards him that presumably he reserves for The Queen. Or Jack Nicklaus.
And the USGA are trying to appear altruistic while coining every single commercial opportunity they can lay their hands on. Both "Opens"' prize funds now significantly below market value, for instance.

As for amateurs giving up the game if they can't be anchorers, I'll just repeat the words of a friend last week who asked me where I played. He said, yup, it's a nice course, be a housing development within ten years.
I'd dispute that given the current mix of play, but if the retirees whose memberships are the lifeblood of so many courses around here are sufficiently disaffected, there'll be no commercial reason not to turn it over to developers.

People round the rest of the world can throw away their broomsticks tomorrow for all anyone here cares, just think twice before taking them away over here cos it just won't happen, not for Joe 20-handicap.

gael,
You are right, and they should have dealt with more universal equipment issues decades ago as well but they're scared sh1tless of going after everyone, just want to pick on minorities.
As for slow play, I find it very surprising that St.Padraig hasn't failed to complete 18 holes in a tournament - only because no-one's got the nuts to dq him for egregious slow play presumably. Not the only one of course. But a bit of a two-faced piece of rhetoric from him, methinks.

ban,
One side issue with long clubs, be they drivers or broomsticks (and I completely understand the distinction, tho it's another very grey area) is that those very same clubs are used for "two club lengths" making some of the ridiculous drops you see by the pros on TV so prevalent.

Ban the anchoring technique, the only people really affected will be professionals who play for a living. The majority of professionals really do not seem to be that bothered about this. These people are the ones in the firing line, and they dont seem to care, then why should any other golfer.

Do people forget golf for the vast majority of people is about having fun. If you have more fun with a longer or anchored putting stroke when your playing on a weekend morning, then so be it.

People care to much about a game.

kwinigolfer wrote:ban,
One side issue with long clubs, be they drivers or broomsticks (and I completely understand the distinction, tho it's another very grey area) is that those very same clubs are used for "two club lengths" making some of the ridiculous drops you see by the pros on TV so prevalent.

exactly

fair points ben, but its a pretty significant departure from the traditional golf shot and therefore open to scrutiny. the real argument for, is the time that it has taken to get to this point. the ruling bodies have actively allowed it to continue for so long and their 11th hour declaration is far weaker for not having shown a more decisive hand earlier in the day..

You say it is a departure from the traditional golf shot, but the length of time this has been around, and for some people all of there golfing life, then this is the traditional golf shot. Loads of changes and developments in other sports, but people not looking to go back to how things where. Footballers are not being mad eto wear heavy old boots with no studs. Cricketers are still allowed to wear pads and helmets or even use (not sucesfully) the mongoose bat. Times change and games evolve.

Where do the rules stand on tapping it in from 3-4 feet with one hand? It's not really a golf shot in the conventional sense.

s_r,
It's not the rule for tapping it in from 3-4 feet with one hand that's in dispute, surely?
It's the indignation when you charge the offender an extra stroke or two when they miss that raises hackles or non-golf-shot fists

I was just wondering where we stood on that issue too Kwini, as i'll quite often knock in a putt of that length with one hand (though not in competition), without addressing the ball and without the usual/traditional stroke, almost like a tennis shot where you reach down for a half volley at your feet.

I suppose a pedant could argue that it is against the spirit of the game.

kwini, re-wind your memory on this issue. When long putters first came out, they comprised broom-handles only. As I understand it, they were designed for what was and hopefully still is a very small niche market viz yippers! At this point, they should have been banned but weren't because (and notwithstanding the potus conspiracy ) the perception back then was that only those who were physically challenged used them. Then the belly putter came along and to begin with, only the same group used them until (in all likelihood) some smart-arsed non-yippy american college boy thought he give one of them whirl. Mainstream golf had effectively become fatally infected with a method which has no place in the game as it should be played.

Just because Peter Dawson is the mouthpiece for the R&A doesn't mean to say he makes the decisions! I think once the ban is pushed through, I'm hoping the governing bodies will use this to address those club and ball issues. I don't believe the pga tour will follow-through with its opposition and I think once the ban has gone through then I believe the governing bodies will be in a much stronger position to fight off litigation in regard to equipment and ball issues.

I agree with you though that the recreational golfer will carry on using whatever method of putting he wants provided his mates don't mind. Just so long as he understands that if he wants to retain a legal up to date h'cap then he will have to abide by the rules.

As for slow play, so long as little Timmy maintains there is no problem then, nothing will change.

I don't think there's any rule preventing you from putting one handed s_r. There's even specific mention about tapping in with one hand whilst holding the flag in the other. No penalties would apply as long as you're not astride the line, you make a fair stroke, you're not pushing, pulling, or scraping the ball etc. And if you're tapping in one handed with the flag in the other don't let the flag touch the ground.

Kwini, yes 1 handed putts do count and if you miss tough Holly Wilaboobie

gaelgowfer wrote:I agree with you though that the recreational golfer will carry on using whatever method of putting he wants provided his mates don't mind. Just so long as he understands that if he wants to retain a legal up to date h'cap then he will have to abide by the rules.

I agree with this sentiment; if you want to carry on playing that way just because it's a bit of fun then do so. But I can't help thinking that it will be the reaction of others that will determine whether this player stays playing the game.

If as mentioned many times, people would like the ball and the clubs to be brought back in line so to speak. Is this just for the pro tours, or do people want this for everyone?

Its terms like "legal up to date handicap" that make people think that golfers take it to serious. I do my handicap tracking on todays golfer, it gives me an idea of my handicap. And from what i see lots of people use this and other online systems, what with the vast majority of golfers not being members. Are we saying that these sites will have to ask you if you used an anchored putting stroke before it calculates your handicap? Or is it just for the privileged few who are members of clubs who can only have legal handicaps.

Slow play can only be dealt with by those running tournaments, whether pro or amateur. Other than in those events they manage there is little the R&A and USGA can do. The main tours and pro groups such as PGA of America could have a huge influence, but they choose not to.

How many recreational golfers use anchored putters? I don't play there much, but generally will have 2-4 weeks a year playing golf in US. I have never seen a long putter (anchored) while playing golf and have only seen a few on the racks in large golf stores. Can't think I have seen one on the rack in a pro shop. I understand there are lots in use among collegiate (presumably, would be pro) golfers, and they aren't using them because of the yips!!!

Balls and clubs are a big fight to come with manufacturers. We had better hope those with the interests of golf in mind are lined up on the same side. I'm afraid Timmy and co have to suck it up, look Keegan and the rest in the eye and say rules are rules, now get on with it. The rules bodies have been as fair as possible, consulting over many years, not just the last few months, and are making the change in line with a pre published timetable of changes ie every four years.

Ben - it would be the same as any other rule. Golf is self policing. Generally only you know if a rule has been broken, but the great thing about golf is that people, mostly, play by the rules. Anchored putter would be no different than any other non conforming club such as driver with "trampoline face" through to a water iron (sand iron with holes drilled through it). Great that you don't have to be a club member to have a handicap isn't it?

I think we pretty much all agree, the only thing we seem to disagree with is the way the always unctuous Dawson and Davis are going about it.
And, in my case as I use neither long putter, nor long "woods" and play like there's a bus to catch, I feel there are bigger, more important fish to fry.

puligny wrote:Balls and clubs are a big fight to come with manufacturers. We had better hope those with the interests of golf in mind are lined up on the same side. I'm afraid Timmy and co have to suck it up, look Keegan and the rest in the eye and say rules are rules, now get on with it.

Perhaps easier said than done if Keegan is staring back with his evil eye.

puligny wrote:Ben - it would be the same as any other rule. Golf is self policing. Generally only you know if a rule has been broken, but the great thing about golf is that people, mostly, play by the rules. Anchored putter would be no different than any other non conforming club such as driver with "trampoline face" through to a water iron (sand iron with holes drilled through it). Great that you don't have to be a club member to have a handicap isn't it?

Never heard of a water iron, what benefit does having holes drilled in give?

Can imagine loads of players can get handicaps now without having to fork out any money at all, only have to pay on today's golfer if you want some fancy stats - i am not good enough, so keep to the basics. Or if you want to print the certificate. I have never been asked for a certificate ever so never had a need for this yet. These sites seems to have made golf a lot more accommodating, when anyone can get a handicap.

Ben - the idea of a water iron was that the resistance of the water would be reduced. I've seen one in the museum at Belfry, but never used or seen one used. Just an example of a club which was developed and then banned. Belfry also has a set of clubs with a telescopic shaft and adjustable head so you would only need to carry one iron! Banned because you can't alter the characteristics of a club during play, though was also probably pretty rank.
Btw, I see ping now have a putter with telescopic shaft, but couldn't be adjusted during play.

... presumably the water iron had a paddle grip?

navyblueshorts wrote:For myself, I don't care if some amateurs give up the game if their cheat sticks are taken away. If they can't hack a difficult sport, maybe tiddly-winks would suit better?
Those that genuinely would have to give up due to some injury I have a bit of sympathy with but people have to give things up all the time due to age/injury. It's a fact of life no matter how unfortunate it might be.

Spot on Navy. If you cant - or won't - play the game using a golf swing what sympathy is there available to you? In my opinion, none.

Lets not give too much notice to the PGAT or the Pga of america, any group who ignores the ban will be the outcasts. Not the governing bodies.

http://www.mygolfspy.com/odyssey-arm-lock-7-ban-anchoring/

Super

Whats your point?

Points I take from that review:

1 - you can get round the anchoring ban, you just have to anchor differently in a manner that does allow a proscribed "swing" rather than a pronounced pivot;

2 - OEM are preparing for the eventuality that the proposed ban is adopted and can come up with ways of marketing products in the new circumstances; and,

3 - Things move forward (note - they don't ipso facto improve, but everything is dynamic). People inevitably move onwards from the point they find themselves in.

McLaren wrote:Super

Whats your point?

Just thought it might be of interest for new techniques to circumnavigate the ban on anchoring.

Who doused your chips this morning? Did you wake up and find your bird had a puncture?

nearly doused my pants

325 Golf Members at my club, another 50 on wait and I can think of only 1 long putter who anchors. Hope they do ban anchoring, but the lively ball is the bigger issue.

However, the two aren't mutually exclusive, so why not fix both?