Joe Schmidts signings

Is it just me or do Leinsters signings under Joe Schmidt leave a lot to be desired. Before he arrived Leinster added options that really bolstered their squad be they the foreign players like Isa Nacewa, Stan Wright, Nathan Hines, Rocky Elsom, Richardt Strauss, Chris Whitaker or else Irish players like Eoin Reddan, Mike Ross, Sean Cronin, Isaac Boss.

However the quality of players that Leinster are signing is a clear reason for their fall from grace this season.

- Andrew Goodman
- Michael Bent
- Quinn Roux
- Tom Denton
- Matt Berquist
- Damien Browne
- Fionn Carr

These are not people of anywhere near the same level as we had been previously seeing. The short term signing of Brad Thorn was a good piece of business but by and large Leinster are bringing in average players which has hurt them badly.

The trend looks to be continuing with Sexton, van der Merwe and Conway all leaving the province and Mike McCarthy and Jimmy Gopperth boosting the ranks.

Rumours of Adam Ashley Cooper and Drew Mitchell are still there but will they come to fruition?

Im not sure how much say that Schmidt actually has when it comes to signings compared with the CEO of Leinster but whoever is responsble needs to have a think about the players coming in. After winning back to back Heineken Cups, Leinster would have been aiming to do a league/cup double. With Sexton jumping ship and Darcy, O'Driscoll, Cullen, Reddan and Boss all in the twilight of their careers there will need to be some key signings to keep Leinster at their level. The current crops of signings are not of that calibre.

How do Leinster fans feel?

You mention Stan Wright and Richardt Strauss as being good signings but Stan Wright was far from a good player when we signed him and Strauss spent his first season sitting on the bench.

I feel that although our signings haven't been as "marquee" in the last few years, the squad profile is changing, we don't need a Rocky Elsom because we're tripping over backrow players, we don't want a CJ Van Der Linde because we need to bring through Irish tightheads, we didn't need a big name OH signing last year because we had Madigan to bring through so we brought in Berquist, a stop gap.

So although I agree that the calibre of signings hasn't been getting better, I believe it doesn't need to to allow us to be competitive.

The one exception is Hines, he was a massive loss and we just haven't been able to replace him. We need a big signing there if Leo calls it quits this year, and i suspect we are looking for one.

If they have good structures in place, the players will improve. Doing it this way results in a lower wage bill for Leinster.

Funny. I have always looked at it the other way. Poor Ulster they have to sign NIQ HC starters because they don't have good enough players at home.

We only need back ups for guys we lose to the National team.

Isa has been the only nailed on HC starter this year. Goodman 3rd choice 12 behind Darce and Ferg and 4th choice 10. VDM is a fab player but rarely starts ahead of Healy. Poor aul Roux was never fit for a HC game but we are keeping him so he could be big next year.

We never even used our extra place when Strauss qualified for Ireland.

Now I'm not saying that will continue, or that we have the squad to win another HC next year without a big signing or 2, but let's face it we were the best team in Europe for the previous 2 seasons.

As you say Darce and particularly Drico will be hard to replace. How do you replace the best player Ireland has ever produced? You can't.

When Rocky left, my impulse was to get another NIQ 6 to replace him, but we didn't we left that job to Kevin McLaughlin and Sean O'Brien. Neither of them were Rocky, they were different players. They both have 2 more HC medals in their arse pocket since then

Currently Brendan Macken and Eoin O'Malley don't look anywhere near replacing Drico, but who knows.... He may stay another year anyway and retire with Darce and Joe Schmidt. They may come on, or we may get an NIQ.

We watched a couple of years of Munster fans in denial that their team was on the downturn. I hope us Leinster fans learn from that and accept the possibillity that it will happen to us.

Personally I think we have a lot of very good players coming through, will they be good enough? Maybe. Maybe not..

Fairly sure we will be back in the position of needing some HC starting NIQs sooner rather than later. But I would not be too downhearted either..... Yet anyway.

One thing about Schmidt as opposed to Cheika. He is great at developing young players and blending them into his Rabo teams.

That should stand to us. Red Stag as a fan of developing young Irish players you would probably agree that this is a good thing

I think Leinster are doing alright there. They've a big underage group of players coming through so they're signing stopgap players these past few years to bolster their squad. They don't cost as must as the big name players either.

Van Der Merwe, Sexton and Conway have replacements. Conway and Carr had to leave because they weren't getting enough gametime.

profitius wrote:I think Leinster are doing alright there. They've a big underage group of players coming through so they're signing stopgap players these past few years to bolster their squad. They don't cost as must as the big name players either.

Van Der Merwe, Sexton and Conway have replacements. Conway and Carr had to leave because they weren't getting enough gametime.

True about VDM. Jack McGrath while nowhere near his quality yet looks well able to step in and is HC bench and Rabo starter level already imo.

Hard to replace Sexto, but Madigan is brimful of confidence and potential. Gopperth to help him develop and bridge the gap between him and Reid.

Conway and Carr got loads of gametime this year due mainly to the massive injury crisis in the backs. I reckon Conway wants HC starts and reckons he will get them down south. Perhaps he will....

Conway hasn't really lived up to the hype. He has had plenty of game time this year, and a fair bit last year (seem to remember him playing in the league semi final?) but aside from the odd run in try he hasn't done too much.

Mickado wrote:Conway hasn't really lived up to the hype. He has had plenty of game time this year, and a fair bit last year (seem to remember him playing in the league semi final?) but aside from the odd run in try he hasn't done too much.

He was better than Zebo and Gilroy at U20 level. Its a big step up from that but he has the talent and might just need a run of games.

We are looking dangerously short on back 3 players all of a sudden.

Fitz (could be centre)
McFadden (could be centre)
Kearney Jr
Kearney Sr

and...........?

Fitz won't be a centre anytime soon. His passing is still too poor. I think we do need a high quality back three player though.

We do have the very exciting Adam Byrne coming through. Can't wait until we get to see more of him. It was a pity he got injured when he did.

Also is Isa not stsying on for another season?

Mickado wrote:You mention Stan Wright and Richardt Strauss as being good signings but Stan Wright was far from a good player when we signed him and Strauss spent his first season sitting on the bench.

I feel that although our signings haven't been as "marquee" in the last few years, the squad profile is changing, we don't need a Rocky Elsom because we're tripping over backrow players, we don't want a CJ Van Der Linde because we need to bring through Irish tightheads, we didn't need a big name OH signing last year because we had Madigan to bring through so we brought in Berquist, a stop gap.

So although I agree that the calibre of signings hasn't been getting better, I believe it doesn't need to to allow us to be competitive.

The one exception is Hines, he was a massive loss and we just haven't been able to replace him. We need a big signing there if Leo calls it quits this year, and i suspect we are looking for one.

A man who knows.

We have fielded full Irish XV's and near full Irish IQ match-day squads, all year. We are hammering all before us in the PRO12. And only because we met the best in-form team in Europe, in our pool, we would still be defending our Big Shiney Cup. Times have changed. For the better.

We dont need bought-in Superstars any more. We just need reasonable backup to ours. And only in a couple of positions. Watch us rectify that one over the next year or two.

I dreamed of this situation years back. It has come to fruition.

McCarthy was a great move. Gopperth is a points-machine. Carr was a mistake. Conway didnt make it.

The Leinster Way demands higher standards then the rest of Europe. Thats why we won 3 x HC's.

The next HC Final win could very well be by an all-Irish Leinster team.

My personal ultimate dream over 15 years ago. Its coming.

Believe.

Yeah Byrne has looked good and Hudson looked ok at the start of the season too.

I hope Fitz ends up at centre in the next few years of his development.

A lad like Adam Ashleey would be great for us to be honest or one of the many outstanding All Black back 3 players

ps: agree with Mick that Joe has been better at developing a squad and hasn't needed to buy in first team players, he's bought cover and squad depth

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah Byrne has looked good and Hudson looked ok at the start of the season too.

I hope Fitz ends up at centre in the next few years of his development.

A lad like Adam Ashleey would be great for us to be honest or one of the many outstanding All Black back 3 players

Fitzy at 12 and O' Malley at 13. I'm already dribbling...

I'd have McFadden at 12 and Fitz at 13, that to be is pretty darn sexy

What about Harrison Brewer at 12. The guy has a Maori tattoo at the age of 17!!! That would be pretty damn scary to play against.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd have McFadden at 12 and Fitz at 13, that to be is pretty darn sexy

McFadden at 12 and O Malley at 13 was always my 1st-choice Peadair. But, we need to try out the combos. Macken may yet live up to his earlier potential also.

Ireland needs a Leinster centre-partnership. Its our birth-roysh.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Funny. I have always looked at it the other way. Poor Ulster they have to sign NIQ HC starters because they don't have good enough players at home.

We only need back ups for guys we lose to the National team.

Isa has been the only nailed on HC starter this year. Goodman 3rd choice 12 behind Darce and Ferg and 4th choice 10. VDM is a fab player but rarely starts ahead of Healy. Poor aul Roux was never fit for a HC game but we are keeping him so he could be big next year.

We never even used our extra place when Strauss qualified for Ireland.

Now I'm not saying that will continue, or that we have the squad to win another HC next year without a big signing or 2, but let's face it we were the best team in Europe for the previous 2 seasons.

As you say Darce and particularly Drico will be hard to replace. How do you replace the best player Ireland has ever produced? You can't.

When Rocky left, my impulse was to get another NIQ 6 to replace him, but we didn't we left that job to Kevin McLaughlin and Sean O'Brien. Neither of them were Rocky, they were different players. They both have 2 more HC medals in their arse pocket since then

Currently Brendan Macken and Eoin O'Malley don't look anywhere near replacing Drico, but who knows.... He may stay another year anyway and retire with Darce and Joe Schmidt. They may come on, or we may get an NIQ.

We watched a couple of years of Munster fans in denial that their team was on the downturn. I hope us Leinster fans learn from that and accept the possibillity that it will happen to us.

Personally I think we have a lot of very good players coming through, will they be good enough? Maybe. Maybe not..

Fairly sure we will be back in the position of needing some HC starting NIQs sooner rather than later. But I would not be too downhearted either..... Yet anyway.

One thing about Schmidt as opposed to Cheika. He is great at developing young players and blending them into his Rabo teams.

That should stand to us. Red Stag as a fan of developing young Irish players you would probably agree that this is a good thing

That is an excellent post. Just reading back after I jumped in.

Not only are our young players stepping up...

Go Jennifer.

Believe.

Think Gopperth is a good signing. They really need cover for when Madigan is with the national team and thats all. Best case scenario is he gets to sit on the bench in the Heineken Cup. Would like us to sign a similar player to cover Jacksons absences. Hopefully Irish but even if not-

I have long believed that we should be judged on the role of the NIQs not the number. This would actually penalise Ulster who have Captain, tighthead and kicker as NIQs. Though I think in our case special dispensation was made initially to get us up to the level of Leinster and Munster quicker than would have otherwise happened- still net benefit to the national team. But if your reserve outhalf or tighthead is NIQ? Don't see why a Gopperth should count the same as a Pienaar.

The whole, sole raison d'etre of the Gopperth signing is the fact Leinster need two squads.

The squad for the Heineken Cup and the squad when their frontline Irish players are unavailable. You need cover.

And, just like Ulster when we had high-profile experienced players leave, its unreasonable to expect that cover to be IQ.

Building for the future is great and all but an occasional big name signing does give the place a bit of a lift.
Would love to see Leinster sign Gorgodze and play him at lock.

Gibson wrote:

Mickado wrote:You mention Stan Wright and Richardt Strauss as being good signings but Stan Wright was far from a good player when we signed him and Strauss spent his first season sitting on the bench.

I feel that although our signings haven't been as "marquee" in the last few years, the squad profile is changing, we don't need a Rocky Elsom because we're tripping over backrow players, we don't want a CJ Van Der Linde because we need to bring through Irish tightheads, we didn't need a big name OH signing last year because we had Madigan to bring through so we brought in Berquist, a stop gap.

So although I agree that the calibre of signings hasn't been getting better, I believe it doesn't need to to allow us to be competitive.

The one exception is Hines, he was a massive loss and we just haven't been able to replace him. We need a big signing there if Leo calls it quits this year, and i suspect we are looking for one.

A man who knows.

We have fielded full Irish XV's and near full Irish IQ match-day squads, all year. We are hammering all before us in the PRO12. And only because we met the best in-form team in Europe, in our pool, we would still be defending our Big Shiney Cup. Times have changed. For the better.

We dont need bought-in Superstars any more. We just need reasonable backup to ours. And only in a couple of positions. Watch us rectify that one over the next year or two.

I dreamed of this situation years back. It has come to fruition.

McCarthy was a great move. Gopperth is a points-machine. Carr was a mistake. Conway didnt make it.

The Leinster Way demands higher standards then the rest of Europe. Thats why we won 3 x HC's.

The next HC Final win could very well be by an all-Irish Leinster team.

My personal ultimate dream over 15 years ago. Its coming.

Believe.

If this was facebook you'd get a from me

It isn't true though Leinster fans. You just don't have the talent in our national problem positions (3, 4, 5) to be able to say that and back it up with a run of success comparable to the amazing run you've had.

Be able to say what Notch?

Mickado wrote:we didn't need a big name OH signing last year because we had Madigan to bring through so we brought in Berquist, a stop gap

Madigan only got his chance because Berquist was injured (and McKinley was forced to retire). Leinster didn't need a big name OH signing because they had Sexton - now they don't need a big name signing because they have Madigan.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Mickado wrote:we didn't need a big name OH signing last year because we had Madigan to bring through so we brought in Berquist, a stop gap

Madigan only got his chance because Berquist was injured (and McKinley was forced to retire). Leinster didn't need a big name OH signing because they had Sexton - now they don't need a big name signing because they have Madigan.

Corectamundo Aukster.

People forget that Madigan was nowhere before last season. He was behind the massively talented Ian McKinley in most people's eyes. Who sadly had to retire on the eve of last season.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/23789.php

Berquist would have been seen as ahead of Madigan until he got hurt in the 2nd game of last season. In fact he would have been signed as the bridge between Sexton and McKinley/Madigan in the same way as Gopperth is between Madigan and Reid.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/0912/1224304011415.html

Madigan has gone from probably 4th choice outhalf to 1st in less than 2 seasons.

Mickado wrote:Be able to say what Notch?

That you don't need NIQ players to be the best side in Europe. A big-name NIQ lock would do wonders for you.

Notch wrote:

Mickado wrote:Be able to say what Notch?

That you don't need NIQ players to be the best side in Europe. A big-name NIQ lock would do wonders for you.

Oh sure, absolutely. We need NIQ players in certain positions, no argument there. But we don't need a big name NIQ backup outhalf, which was the point that I think was being made. In fact, in my first post on this thread i said that we are worse off having not hung onto Hines and i hope we sign a marquee player in that position soon.

Notch wrote:

Mickado wrote:Be able to say what Notch?

That you don't need NIQ players to be the best side in Europe. A big-name NIQ lock would do wonders for you.

Jaysus. What nutter was saying that?

On Locks. We may or may not sign one. We could sign some backs.

Browne probably gone due to injury but If Leo stays another year (Which looks likely) we will have.....

Leo, McCarthy.

Toner, Roux (also likely to stay)

Flanagan, Marshall.

Denton.

Who needs more than 7 locks? OK none of them are Brad Thorn, yet anyway, but that's not a bad selection.

We have room to....

Keep Roux as a project.

Keep Isa or sign a big name replacement.

Sign a big name 2nd row. (pending IRFU approval)

Keep Goodman (possible)

And still have room for another.... say winger.

Munster and Ulster are all tied up with their current options and won't get to sign any more NIQs

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Munster are all tied up with their current options and won't get to sign any more NIQs

Botha and Howlett have contracts up at the end of the season.

red_stag wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Munster are all tied up with their current options and won't get to sign any more NIQs

Botha and Howlett have contracts up at the end of the season.

True. Howlett I'll give you. Botha looks set for another 2 years though.

Didn't think too deeply on the Ulster situation either but off the top of my head all 5 of theirs are there for next season.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Munster are all tied up with their current options and won't get to sign any more NIQs

Botha and Howlett have contracts up at the end of the season.

True. Howlett I'll give you. Botha looks set for another 2 years though.

Didn't think too deeply on the Ulster situation either but off the top of my head all 5 of theirs are there for next season.

I really hope that we don't give Botha another two years. I'd rather give him a 5 year deal as a scrum coach.

I'd like us to sign a marquee second row signing (we deserve it a hell of a lot more than Leinster) and keep a NIQ free in case of injury. I think at tighthead we need to get putting a bit of trust in Archer. I think with exposure he could be a good player. Not world class tighthead but certainly a decent enough Heineken Cup level player.

red_stag wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Munster are all tied up with their current options and won't get to sign any more NIQs

Botha and Howlett have contracts up at the end of the season.

True. Howlett I'll give you. Botha looks set for another 2 years though.

Didn't think too deeply on the Ulster situation either but off the top of my head all 5 of theirs are there for next season.

I really hope that we don't give Botha another two years. I'd rather give him a 5 year deal as a scrum coach.

I'd like us to sign a marquee second row signing (we deserve it a hell of a lot more than Leinster) and keep a NIQ free in case of injury. I think at tighthead we need to get putting a bit of trust in Archer. I think with exposure he could be a good player. Not world class tighthead but certainly a decent enough Heineken Cup level player.

Dunno if you could convince the IRFU that you need a 2nd row more than Leinster with 3 Ireland starters on the books and several prospects below that. I'd say Donners will get another Munster contract probably not a central one.

As I said in my earlier post I would not be upset if we did not sign another big name lock as I believe we are just about OK if Leo stays.

I think you would focked with Archer as your starting TH, although Ulster had the best days out of BJ he will remain comfortably ahead of Archer for the next 2 years (IMHO)

From an Ireland pov, it would be good to get Archer going, but Munster would pay the price. While he has come on a good bit this season it was from a VERY low base.

I think our scrum appears weaker due to our locks. If we had a big second row in the engine room I think we would be ok. Our scrum would be weaker of course but overall our game would be better.

O'Callaghan and O'Connell are 33 years old. They have not much in the tank. Ryan is a cert for Ireland and therefore misses a lot of rugby. Don't really rate Nagle or Holland to be honest and think that we are treading water.

I'd rather set back the likes of Dave Foleys development to allow Archer the chance of coming in. I think its the best move for Munster as a team.

I wouldn't argue with you as you obviously know Munster's squad a lot better than I do.

Nagle rumoured to be leaving. DOC2 is he a 6 only? Not sure. Holland and Foley are OK. Nice to have an enforcer with some serious grunt but we have been looking and they are not growing on trees anywhere.

As regards your 2 x 33 year olds. That's nattin for a lock. Simon Shaw is 40 in a few months, Big Bad Brad is not far behind.

Hard to Know with Paulie. He could be bollixt, but he could also extend his career based of the lack of mileage in the last few years. And let's face it he is a serious opperator with a bit of fitness in him.

red_stag wrote:I think our scrum appears weaker due to our locks.

I was about to row in with my agreement then I realised you were talking about Munster, not Ireland.

I think Ireland have not had good scrummaging locks in a while. The Ulster lads have been good, and the absence of McCarthy was highly noticeable against Scotland. Of course, our backrow hang off the scrum adding no power at all- what is Greg Feek for?

Feek is only part time Notch so maybe that is affecting things? Our scrum was really good against Wales and good against England.

He has definately done good work with the Leinster scrum.

Would Schmidt sign a top line NIQ back if the runours are true about Luke Fitzgerald and Munster? You'd need one, in my opinion.

I'd be amazed if Fitzgerald went to Munster unless he it would be as a centre. Tell you what it would be bizarre to have:

10 Ian Keatley
11 Johne Murphy
12 James Downey
13 Luke Fitzgerald
14 Andrew Conway
15 Felix Jones

The IRFU feiced us over by refusing to let us keep Hines. We need to sign a really good foreign 2nd row, because we seem completely incapable of producing one.

There's lot's of youungsters with potential in other positions. But potential is not guaranteed to make it at the top. For example Ruddock and Conway were so hyped up I thought they were gonna be world beaters. In reality they've both been a bit rubbish.

The IRFU feiced us over with Sexton, Hines, VDM, and White.

Not sure we're being feiced over on VDM, I don't see what the point would be in forcing us to move him on, but then allowing us to sign a new foreign prop, just doesn't make sense, I hope we promote McGrath to our replacement TH.

Incidentally, if we don't sign a foreign prop we'll have no NIQ front row players on the books, 5TH's 3 hookers* and 3/4 LH's, all Irish qualified.

I think Dundon has been here for years as far as i know.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Funny. I have always looked at it the other way. Poor Ulster they have to sign NIQ HC starters because they don't have good enough players at home.

I cry foul! Yer comparing apples and oranges there Jen (no pun intended) .....

Ulster as a side are at a different stage in their evolution as a professional franchise than Munster or Leinster. We also have logistical barriers which make it difficult to sign top quality IQ players that the southern provinces don't have.

Lets not forget too the impact Elsom, Hines and Contepomi had in winning Leinsters first Heino, nor the fact that Munster had almost a completely foreign 3/4 line at one stage not so long ago.

Back to the OP, yes Leinsters signings are tad shoite lately. Its hard to get good players to join a sinking ship.......

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Funny. I have always looked at it the other way. Poor Ulster they have to sign NIQ HC starters because they don't have good enough players at home.

I cry foul! Yer comparing apples and oranges there Jen (no pun intended) .....

Ulster as a side are at a different stage in their evolution as a professional franchise than Munster or Leinster. We also have logistical barriers which make it difficult to sign top quality IQ players that the southern provinces don't have.

Lets not forget too the impact Elsom, Hines and Contepomi had in winning Leinsters first Heino, nor the fact that Munster had almost a completely foreign 3/4 line at one stage not so long ago.

Back to the OP, yes Leinsters signings are tad shoite lately. Its hard to get good players to join a sinking ship.......

I don't see how you are disagreeing with me Rods. That's exactly what I was saying.

We are at the stage now where we don't need frontliners because we have the talent in house. I also said that we could be back to needing them again soon too.

You can't compare apples and Oranges. For a start there is no such thing as an Apple ba$tard.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Funny. I have always looked at it the other way. Poor Ulster they have to sign NIQ HC starters because they don't have good enough players at home.

I cry foul! Yer comparing apples and oranges there Jen (no pun intended) .....

Ulster as a side are at a different stage in their evolution as a professional franchise than Munster or Leinster. We also have logistical barriers which make it difficult to sign top quality IQ players that the southern provinces don't have.

Lets not forget too the impact Elsom, Hines and Contepomi had in winning Leinsters first Heino, nor the fact that Munster had almost a completely foreign 3/4 line at one stage not so long ago.

Back to the OP, yes Leinsters signings are tad shoite lately. Its hard to get good players to join a sinking ship.......

I don't see how you are disagreeing with me Rods. That's exactly what I was saying.

We are at the stage now where we don't need frontliners because we have the talent in house. I also said that we could be back to needing them again soon too.

You can't compare apples and Oranges. For a start there is no such thing as an Apple ba$tard.

Steve Jobs...

Mickado wrote:

Steve Jobs...

His emergence in the last 10 to 15 years did kind of ruin that quip OK.

Previously it was funnier.

Although he did drive several people to nervous breakdowns during the development of the original Mac in 1984. But he was not as famous then.

A complete bollix by all accounts.

I’m sure you’ve seen this Jen, but for anyone else, here’s a reported “sneak peak” at the plans for a redeveloped RDS.

http://www.coybib.com/coybib-exclusive-rds-redevelopment-plans/

Yeah. The lads are up in arms over the lack of a terrace.

Ravenhill and Thomond having extensive terracing on all sides.

From a purely selfish point of view I'd love to see a roof over the north and south stands.