Referees and rugby vs football

Looking at how footballers treat referees I thought we should discuss how rugby won't turn into the same kind of yob game football is.

So that means bringing in punitive measures designed to prevent it creeping into the game.

And it is.

So here's my proposal and, (penalty for offender)

1. High tackle - 10 mins in bin
2. Dangerous play other than high tackle - same
3. Back chat - 5mins in bin
4. Not back 10 - 5 mins in bin
5. Blocking player intentionally - 5 min in bin
6. Cheating on ground or bringing maul down - 5 mins or penalty try
7. Robot dancing - red card
8. Swallow dive. - insert unopened bottle of Heineken into anal bumhole. Twist accordingly.

There maybe more pls propose.

We are in a world where the issue with refs isnt so much how they are treated but the systems they use to judge..

Respect the ref btw, what ever sport you play.

But the job is getting close to impossible..

Games are getting faster, players are getting fitter- we can fit more play in..

Rules are getting more and more health and safety conscious..

The viewers get hd quality replay action from defferent angles.

Time to help the reffs out more..

If the game gets fairer then a knock on effect will be less offensive behoaviour towards the refs.

Football is stuck in the dark ages in regards to helping the refs out(only just moved into glt!)

The games are so important that tempers will naturally flair up.

I agree with 3, 7 and 8.

I think Chris Ashton and Morgan Parra should get ad hoc bans for being very annoying.

Other things that annoy me. Jamie Heaslip as captian went to the coin toss v Scotland with a massive pair of Dr Dre Beats around his neck. 1 match ban minimum.

Tweeting about citing judgements. Automatic suspension.

However, I disagree on some of the other bans. Some rough stuff should be encouraged otherwise we will be faced with scenarios where players dive around like footballers at the slightest contact.

Finally I thought the ManU players treatment of the Turkish ref in last nights match v Real was a disgrace, getting up in his face and pointing fingers in his face post match. Its no wonder they are such a hated team.

GG
The Nani sending off was a shocking decision though - yellow at worst.

As for rugby, life bans for any player that gestures with an invisible card (or perhaps they should just be taken round the back of the stand and shot).

1 year ban for simulating injury like a footballer (that should see Morgan Parra out of the game for a while )

dummy_half wrote:GG
The Nani sending off was a shocking decision though - yellow at worst.

As for rugby, life bans for any player that gestures with an invisible card (or perhaps they should just be taken round the back of the stand and shot).

1 year ban for simulating injury like a footballer (that should see Morgan Parra out of the game for a while )

Nani may not have meant to do it but he still raised his studs and connected with the Madrid players ribs. It was dangerous. I do think a yellow would have been fair but whatever the decision the players reaction was disgraceful as was Ferguson's not surprisingly.

5 mins in the bin is probably unworkable, and more teams are working out how to use sin bin periods to their own advantage (bizarrely, but effectively), but I would like to see referees making more use of the tools already available to them.

A ref always has the option to award an extra 10 yards or reverse a penalty, but they are rarely used these days. I'd be inclined to make much more use of them for dissent, waving imaginary cards, diving etc. At the other end of the scale, I'd like to see refs take a little more time to talk to captains and explain decisions that have gone against them, particularly if it's heading towards a yellow.

alive555 wrote:Looking at how footballers treat referees I thought we should discuss how rugby won't turn into the same kind of yob game football is.

So that means bringing in punitive measures designed to prevent it creeping into the game.

And it is.

So here's my proposal and, (penalty for offender)

1. High tackle - 10 mins in bin
2. Dangerous play other than high tackle - same
3. Back chat - 5mins in bin
4. Not back 10 - 5 mins in bin
5. Blocking player intentionally - 5 min in bin
6. Cheating on ground or bringing maul down - 5 mins or penalty try
7. Robot dancing - red card
8. Swallow dive. - insert unopened bottle of Heineken into anal bumhole. Twist accordingly.

There maybe more pls propose.

You go on about disrespect to referees, then go on about high tackles and dangerous play etc. How does that have any correlation with abuse of the ref?

In the main, referees are respected in rugby and where they aren't, recieve punishment (hello, anyone remember Parisse?)

This is a non-issue.

I watched the Parisse incident and couldnt work out what he said or did. Any ideas?

Yep I agree Jimpy

I think its more about wendyballers following the toffs lead on this one..

Toffs can be respectfull

Whether it was a yellow or a red is neither here nor there. It's a ref's decision...and if you have one person agreeing with him and one person not agreeing with him, then that's cut and dried - a decision made legitimately.

We often say here ..."Yeah, but the ref made the wrong decision so the players have a right to be annoyed" Oh yeah? Like I say, all it needs is one other person to disagree with you to prove that the Ref makes his decisions - wrongly or rightly, it his human decision to make.

If football or rugby or any other field game doesn't want any refs on the field and just open warfare, well let's invent that kind of game. But a ref is there because the sport wants them and has them, and their decisions count.

The players? - everyone gets annoyed. But football players feel they have an ongoing right to express that annoyance at the ref. They think it says in their contract somewhere that venting frustration in the face of the official is a legitimate pressure-value release, and should be allowed.

I think any circling of the Referee should be stamped out with sanctions against players who indulge in it The sickening thing for me, was that some of the players who did the 'in-your-face' menacing display and the affected hand-clapping for his 'performance' were the same players who then wanted to shake his hand a few seconds later. Weasels.... 'no hard feelings, we is annoyed, that's all'

SecretFly wrote:I think any circling of the Referee should be stamped out with sanctions against players who indulge in it The sickening thing for me, was that some of the players who did the 'in-your-face' menacing display and the affected hand-clapping for his 'performance' were the same players who then wanted to shake his hand a few seconds later. Weasels.... 'no hard feelings, we is annoyed, that's all'

Completly agree. How intimidating must it be refereeing in Old Trafford with 80k Mancunians shouting at the top of their lungs scrutainising the refs every call. Add to that a bunch of rabid over paid footballers circuling the ref when he makes a big decision against the home team, it must be an absolute nightmare for the refs.

I really hope ManU get some sort of sanction over how their players reacted to the decision because ManU and their manager routinely intimidate oficials to get decisons. it is a foul characteristic of football. Was nice to see a ref with the cojones to make his own decisions.

The attitude of many soccer fans I have seen is that the conduct of the Man Utd players towards the referee was acceptable as his decision to give a red card was wrong.

The whole point is that it doesnt matter if the ref makes the wrong call. You show him respect.

red_stag wrote:The attitude of many soccer fans I have seen is that the conduct of the Man Utd players towards the referee was acceptable as his decision to give a red card was wrong.

The whole point is that it doesnt matter if the ref makes the wrong call. You show him respect.

Thats the culture in football and why I rarely watch it anymore amoung other reasons. Im sure you have reffed guys in rugby that have given you lip too but I doubt its as widespread as in football?

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think any circling of the Referee should be stamped out with sanctions against players who indulge in it The sickening thing for me, was that some of the players who did the 'in-your-face' menacing display and the affected hand-clapping for his 'performance' were the same players who then wanted to shake his hand a few seconds later. Weasels.... 'no hard feelings, we is annoyed, that's all'

Completly agree. How intimidating must it be refereeing in Old Trafford with 80k Mancunians shouting at the top of their lungs scrutainising the refs every call. Add to that a bunch of rabid over paid footballers circuling the ref when he makes a big decision against the home team, it must be an absolute nightmare for the refs.

I really hope ManU get some sort of sanction over how their players reacted to the decision because ManU and their manager routinely intimidate oficials to get decisons. it is a foul characteristic of football. Was nice to see a ref with the cojones to make his own decisions.

what utter crap! If they sanction Man U for that, then there going to have to hand out a Poopie load of sanctions as it's pretty much standard practice in football. I do detect a slight hatred for Man U in your posts GG!

nathan wrote:If they sanction Man U for that, then there going to have to hand out a Poopie load of sanctions as it's pretty much standard practice in football. I do detect a slight hatred for Man U in your posts GG!

Exactly....then start handing out that Poopie load. Because the only way it stops is if guaranteed sanctions follow an occurance. If such sanction were guaranteed to follow, you'd quickly arrive at the point where not only the Captain of the side would begin to pull his players away from the Ref (as happens in rugby)..you'd also have Managers getting their message onto the field pretty quick too - "Lay off the Ref now!" If a side knew it might suffer with suspensions then the ritual would die away pretty quickly.

One the things I really disliked about Borthwick was his attitude towards the ref, waving the imaginary card on a number of occasions and forever chelping at the ref. Disrespect is creeping in but not so much but it is better to come down on it now before it becomes widespread. The theatrics of the sort Parra is an exponent of should be citable because it is not always obvious to the ref in the heat of the moment but needs eliminating from the game. Refs need all the help and support they can get but TJ's need to involve themselves more and the TMO should be allowed to indicate offences to the ref during play without being asked as he probably has the best view of things.

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:If they sanction Man U for that, then there going to have to hand out a Poopie load of sanctions as it's pretty much standard practice in football. I do detect a slight hatred for Man U in your posts GG!

Exactly....then start handing out that Poopie load. Because the only way it stops is if guaranteed sanctions follow an occurance. If such sanction were guaranteed to follow, you'd quickly arrive at the point where not only the Captain of the side would begin to pull his players away from the Ref (as happens in rugby)..you'd also have Managers getting their message onto the field pretty quick too - "Lay off the Ref now!" If a side knew it might suffer with suspensions then the ritual would die away pretty quickly.

Yes exactly as Fly says they should start sanctioning accross the board on this.

As Mourinho said the "whole world will stop to watch this match". As teams like ManU and Madrid are the standard bearers for club football in Europe behaviour such as this really should not be tolerated.

Football without doubt needs a sin bin system where players can go cool off for 10 minutes.

red_stag wrote:The attitude of many soccer fans I have seen is that the conduct of the Man Utd players towards the referee was acceptable as his decision to give a red card was wrong.

The whole point is that it doesnt matter if the ref makes the wrong call. You show him respect.

In football isn't it a sending off (and bannable) offence to physically touch the ref? I am pretty sure it is. So to be fair it is the ref who is at fault, all he has to do is stand his ground and let them know touch me and your off, as opposed to backing away and backing away until he is in a corner.

It isn't even as if the ref is physically smaller than the players, definately not to the extent a lock is larger than the average rugby union ref.

Hmmm...it's intimidation Scarlet. You don't have to hit someone to intimidate them. A bunch of guys with neck veins popping, chewing their faces into you is kinda what it is...intimidation. And it's continuing to be allowed.

If five or six Rugby players pushed their heads menacingly up to a refs in our sport...there'd be after effects. They'd be gunned for at an official level and made paid a price.

I believe that if a ref makes a decision the only player that is allowed anywhere near him is the team captain to be explained why one of his players is being sent off.

Same in football, if any other players come up to the referee they should receive yellow cards.

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think any circling of the Referee should be stamped out with sanctions against players who indulge in it The sickening thing for me, was that some of the players who did the 'in-your-face' menacing display and the affected hand-clapping for his 'performance' were the same players who then wanted to shake his hand a few seconds later. Weasels.... 'no hard feelings, we is annoyed, that's all'

Completly agree. How intimidating must it be refereeing in Old Trafford with 80k Mancunians shouting at the top of their lungs scrutainising the refs every call. Add to that a bunch of rabid over paid footballers circuling the ref when he makes a big decision against the home team, it must be an absolute nightmare for the refs.

I really hope ManU get some sort of sanction over how their players reacted to the decision because ManU and their manager routinely intimidate oficials to get decisons. it is a foul characteristic of football. Was nice to see a ref with the cojones to make his own decisions.

what utter crap! If they sanction Man U for that, then there going to have to hand out a Poopie load of sanctions as it's pretty much standard practice in football. I do detect a slight hatred for Man U in your posts GG!

In that case why did they bother with the 'kick racism out' thing, cos that has lead to a fair few bans etc, surely that seems to have worked even though it has seen some high profile cases. If the FA/UEFA/FIFA (whoever) started to back refs in the same way and take the poop storm that the media will throw out, for the first one or two cases, and things will improve. And most likely the press and public will welcome the change.

This is why rugby is better than football.

In football you see the nonsense of last night. Some of the Man U players were right in the face of the ref who was only applying the law as he saw fit (I am not going to get into a debate if the decision was right or not)

In rugby, the ref is still respected and I hope that this continues forever more. If you give the ref nonsense, expect to get your comeuppance - Just ask Mr Parisse

Send Steve Walsh over to football for a season, and see if he can improve things.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10869295 wrote:Walsh was also involved in an incident with Conrad Smith when he appeared to push the Hurricanes captain but SANZAR referees boss Lyndon Bray said there was nothing in it.

"It's just one of those things that happens on a rugby field, accidental contact between the two, because they're both getting into exactly the same spot at the same time,'' Bray said.

"So they were naturally in each other's face as they turned and so they were inevitably going to collide. Steve had momentum on his side obviously because he's about to start racing up 10m.''

I wish football refs would take a leaf out of Nigel Owens book. Great clip here of Nigel making sure the players know who's in charge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXoBNFOxlQM&feature=youtube_gdata_player Owens calls Botes over, who was waving his arms & appealing for a decesion, and tells him,"I don't think we've met before but I'm the referee, on this field not you, stick to your job and I will do mine".

IronMike wrote:I believe that if a ref makes a decision the only player that is allowed anywhere near him is the team captain to be explained why one of his players is being sent off.

Same in football, if any other players come up to the referee they should receive yellow cards.

Totally agree, have been saying this for years.

GLove39 wrote:Owens calls Botes over, who was waving his arms & appealing for a decesion, and tells him,"I don't think we've met before but I'm the referee, on this field not you, stick to your job and I will do mine".

That seems to a favourite line of his, heard it a few times to different players. His best one was when the Blues and Ospreys played, after a few pens/reset scrums, he called Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins over and said "You two are meant to be the best props in the world, now act like it or you'll both get getting ten minutes". Funny enough the next few scrums all stayed up.

I watched the match and have heard all the debate this morning by the Madrlieños. Apparently if you raise your studs and connect with a player, it doesn't matter if there's intent or not, it's a red card. The law is there but it's another thing to get enforced by the refs. You can get a yellow card for diving but how many theatrics do we get each game? Loads here in Spain that's for sure! But hoe many yellow cards get dished out for that? Not many, if any Scribe used to sing / rap.

It got me thinking about rugby. Supposedly you should feed the scrum in straight but how many halfbacks give crooked feeds. You can't pass the ball deliberately forward but how many line ball flat passes do we see close to the line?

I think rugby helps out the ref a lot more than in football with technology but the main problem is the breakdown laws are so complex and the speed of the game can be so breakneck that it's a nightmare to officiate this area of the game.

That's what Nigel does best............ the asides.

I think soccer refs should consider adopting a stance of fingers in the ears, eyes closed and chanting "la la la la la" when the players surround them.

Pretend to be tellytubbies? Hmm, football is mad enough already, Stag. Let's not add to the confusion.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I watched the match and have heard all the debate this morning by the Madrlieños. Apparently if you raise your studs and connect with a player, it doesn't matter if there's intent or not, it's a red card. The law is there but it's another thing to get enforced by the refs. You can get a yellow card for diving but how many theatrics do we get each game? Loads here in Spain that's for sure! But hoe many yellow cards get dished out for that? Not many, if any Scribe used to sing / rap.

It got me thinking about rugby. Supposedly you should feed the scrum in straight but how many halfbacks give crooked feeds. You can't pass the ball deliberately forward but how many line ball flat passes do we see close to the line?

I think rugby helps out the ref a lot more than in football with technology but the main problem is the breakdown laws are so complex and the speed of the game can be so breakneck that it's a nightmare to officiate this area of the game.

Im sure the Madrlieños are delighted and its true enough Nani raised his studs and connected. Not sure why ManU fans and players are so outraged. Their reaction has been appauling though.

Does the referee have a name by the way?

I hear him refered to in the Independent (English version) as "the Turkish referee".

Oh so that's why it all happened??!!

Meanwhile, away from the fun, I'd say his nationality is irrelevent and his name might identify him better.

I think they're getting all sorts of s**t from Barcelona fans eager to remind them of how often they say the ref favours Barcelona.

It's what I despise about football and the theatrics whenever there's the slightest contact. No wonder all the kids and parents do it on the weekend if they see the professional players do it. That and the constant whistling and booing from the home crowd when the opposition have possession really turn me off football. Not that I was ever enamoured but rugby matches are few and far between here and the quality is risible.

The ref should be able to send off any player surrounding him and applauding him sarcastically. Only way to cut that out of the game.

Cuneyt Cakir is the ref's name but probably has accents over certain letters which makes Turkish delight sound more comforting and palatable.

My tuppence worth:

1. High tackle - depends on the nature - some are really bad so should be red, some slip up accidentally and so could just be a penalty. One 10 min sin bin ruling cannot be applied to all.
2. Dangerous play other than high tackle - again depends - what is 'dangerous play? How is it different from foul play? Some tip tackles are straight reds as they're dangerous. A gouge is dangerous, so straight red. Taking someone's legs in the lineout - depends at what stage 'in flight' and so may be red, yellow or penalty. Again one 10min rule cannot be applied to all situations equally.
3. Back chat - in a game of territory like rugby, conceding 10 meters is a decent punishment for back chat. Can easily lead to a kickable 3 points.
4. Not back 10 - 5 mins in bin - no way! Maybe if it's blatantly deliberate, so in that way it's cynical, a professional foul, and would get a yellow, just as not rolling away or hands in the ruck might. Sometimes though you might think you're 10 when you're 9 and are therefore a bit unlucky to get pinged. A sin bin would be harsh there. Again, it's these different levels of an offence. That's what the yellow card is already there for. If it's bad enough, cynical enough then why go for 5 mins? Just go for a normal 10 minute yellow.
5. Blocking player intentionally - 5 min in bin - same as above
6. Cheating on ground or bringing maul down - 5 mins or penalty try - same as above. Sometimes the maul collapses accidentally. Is that still a 5min sin bin?
7. Robot dancing - red card - agree
8. Swallow dive. - insert unopened bottle of Heineken into anal bumhole. Twist accordingly - agree

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think they're getting all sorts of s**t from Barcelona fans eager to remind them of how often they say the ref favours Barcelona.

It's what I despise about football and the theatrics whenever there's the slightest contact. No wonder all the kids and parents do it on the weekend if they see the professional players do it. That and the constant whistling and booing from the home crowd when the opposition have possession really turn me off football. Not that I was ever enamoured but rugby matches are few and far between here and the quality is risible.

The ref should be able to send off any player surrounding him and applauding him sarcastically. Only way to cut that out of the game.

Cuneyt Cakir is the ref's name but probably has accents over certain letters which makes Turkish delight sound more comforting and palatable.

You should be able to catch the odd game in Barcelona where Perpignan sometimes play in the HC or better still get yourself to the jewel in Sapin's crown, the Basque town of Donostia and watch a Biarritz game the next time they take it to the Anoeta.

Good suggestions.

Prefer to save up my rugby trips for international matches involving NZ or the World Cup. Choose your battles...

Ferguson cant complain that much anyway, especially after that fiasco where a ball was kicked at Van Persie and Ferguson came to the press saying he could have been killed and so on.

The other thing I really don't like is the congratulatory back slap for every penalty won at scrum time. .
Disrespectful and not good for the game... That should be a yellow card too.

In rugby the yellow cards are the cause not the solution.

If the use of yellow cards was restricted only to genuine acts of foul play then all players could get back to playing rugby and the role of the referee would be manage the game.

Most instances of referees not being shown respect in rugby is usually in reply to referees being very stupid, ignorant of the rules, or having to administer stupid laws ie "tip tackles". In my experiences for the great part rugby players ands coaches do respect referees, and have a beer after the game with them.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
In rugby the yellow cards are the cause not the solution.

If the use of yellow cards was restricted only to genuine acts of foul play then all players could get back to playing rugby and the role of the referee would be manage the game.

Most instances of referees not being shown respect in rugby is usually in reply to referees being very stupid, ignorant of the rules, or having to administer stupid laws ie "tip tackles". In my experiences for the great part rugby players ands coaches do respect referees, and have a beer after the game with them.

Agree on the latter point in that I really don't think there's that much of an issue at the moment. Disagree on the prior stuff though. Certainly refs have their moments, but they are only human and it's going to happen. It doesn't excuse or justify players having a hissy fit at them. The only time refs should be criticised is when they've taken a bung or lack any kind of consistency.

alive555 wrote:The other thing I really don't like is the congratulatory back slap for every penalty won at scrum time. .
Disrespectful and not good for the game... That should be a yellow card too.

I quite like that actually. Gets the blood pumping. Dont see how its desrespectful. You could say patting the guy on the head that concedes the pen is disrespectful though. That seems to happen a lot.

mystiroakey wrote:Yep I agree Jimpy

I think its more about wendyballers following the toffs lead on this one..

Toffs can be respectfull

The thing is, have you actually seen the quality of football reffing? It's absolutely shocking given the relative simplicity of the game. You could say 'well have you done it' - no, but i've seen more effective reffing in sunday league. And there's just as much going on.

I think it's a consequence of all football refs being bullied kids who were rubbish at the sport. I don't like seeing a ref surrounded, but they are unremittingly terrible.

SecretFly wrote:Hmmm...it's intimidation Scarlet. You don't have to hit someone to intimidate them. A bunch of guys with neck veins popping, chewing their faces into you is kinda what it is...intimidation. And it's continuing to be allowed.

If five or six Rugby players pushed their heads menacingly up to a refs in our sport...there'd be after effects. They'd be gunned for at an official level and made paid a price.

Completely true.

Playing devil's advocate a bit - but on the flip side there are a number of players involved in fights in rugby that still go unpunished before and after a game, that (to the best of my knowledge) would never happen in the round ball game. That also sends a less than ideal message to young kids playing the game. Football fans could easily say that this is an outrage and that everyone that throws a punch in a fight should be red/yellow carded and banned afterwards - should it happen? Technically it could be done, but it's very hard to change the culture.

Personally I think we take a hard line on ref abuse and if we stick with it, the sport will probably be okay in that respect. If we want to look at football, perhaps we should be a bit more constructive and look at areas where we can learn something - be that discipline for violent conduct (which remains inconsistent and frequently wide of the mark), or the off-field development of fan owned clubs (which personally I think is great, don't know how widespread it is but I've heard of a few of late).

Hood83 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Yep I agree Jimpy

I think its more about wendyballers following the toffs lead on this one..

Toffs can be respectfull

The thing is, have you actually seen the quality of football reffing? It's absolutely shocking given the relative simplicity of the game. You could say 'well have you done it' - no, but i've seen more effective reffing in sunday league. And there's just as much going on.

I think it's a consequence of all football refs being bullied kids who were rubbish at the sport. I don't like seeing a ref surrounded, but they are unremittingly terrible.

Firstly I am of course joking with my wendyball and toffy comments.

Yes I watch football reffing all the time. sadly I am a big footy fan!

The refs cant do much more. There are highly skilled refs in a massive sport. Its just a very hard job- add the pressure to this as well(and of course lets forget for one minute about the betting scandals!)

Rugby and cricket have much more help these days and have embraced Tech.

Footy refs are not like traffic wardens.. They need to be respected more. They have one of the toughest jobs out there yet still get ripped to shreds!

Big wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Hmmm...it's intimidation Scarlet. You don't have to hit someone to intimidate them. A bunch of guys with neck veins popping, chewing their faces into you is kinda what it is...intimidation. And it's continuing to be allowed.

If five or six Rugby players pushed their heads menacingly up to a refs in our sport...there'd be after effects. They'd be gunned for at an official level and made paid a price.

Completely true.

Playing devil's advocate a bit - but on the flip side there are a number of players involved in fights in rugby that still go unpunished before and after a game, that (to the best of my knowledge) would never happen in the round ball game. That also sends a less than ideal message to young kids playing the game. Football fans could easily say that this is an outrage and that everyone that throws a punch in a fight should be red/yellow carded and banned afterwards - should it happen? Technically it could be done, but it's very hard to change the culture.

Personally I think we take a hard line on ref abuse and if we stick with it, the sport will probably be okay in that respect. If we want to look at football, perhaps we should be a bit more constructive and look at areas where we can learn something - be that discipline for violent conduct (which remains inconsistent and frequently wide of the mark), or the off-field development of fan owned clubs (which personally I think is great, don't know how widespread it is but I've heard of a few of late).

And yet football fans have more history and reputation of violence than rugby fans, so I disagree about the message being sent to kids.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
having to administer stupid laws ie "tip tackles".

hold on a sec. Are you saying the "tip tackle" should not be carded???

IronMike wrote:
And yet football fans have more history and reputation of violence than rugby fans, so I disagree about the message being sent to kids.

I don't think kids watching a brawl on a pitch will think it's okay to have a brawl in the terraces, or on the street with other fans - but I do think they may decide it's okay to have brawls during their own matches. There were certainly plenty of mid game fights when I was in my teens, far more than in the local age grade football games where it was practically unheard of.

mystiroakey wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Yep I agree Jimpy

I think its more about wendyballers following the toffs lead on this one..

Toffs can be respectfull

The thing is, have you actually seen the quality of football reffing? It's absolutely shocking given the relative simplicity of the game. You could say 'well have you done it' - no, but i've seen more effective reffing in sunday league. And there's just as much going on.

I think it's a consequence of all football refs being bullied kids who were rubbish at the sport. I don't like seeing a ref surrounded, but they are unremittingly terrible.

Firstly I am of course joking with my wendyball and toffy comments.

Yes I watch football reffing all the time. sadly I am a big footy fan!

The refs cant do much more. There are highly skilled refs in a massive sport. Its just a very hard job- add the pressure to this as well(and of course lets forget for one minute about the betting scandals!)

Rugby and cricket have much more help these days and have embraced Tech.

Footy refs are not like traffic wardens.. They need to be respected more. They have one of the toughest jobs out there yet still get ripped to shreds!

Sorry, realise my tone sounded massively condescending, which wasn't the intention. The pressure is a fair point, and I think they could be helped more from video refs etc. it's crime that this hasn't come in. BUT, i still think the standard is pish.

In kickboxing/cagefighting you have men attack each other virtually identically to the kind of streetfight you might witness on a busy weekend night in any town or city.

But there is a difference - a very bloody subtle one in my eyes!!! - but nonetheless it's there - and that is that the fighters are generally ready conditioned to fight in such a fight, and their mind especially is ready for it. That's sometimes the only difference between a fighter getting elbows into his face surviving without too much injury and a streetfighter often dying from such collisions and impacts.

So with rugby, and the breakouts of fighting in a heated, physical game; and fists beginning to fly...well, yes, it's not what a game needs or what young players need to mimic.... but it's already a game of serious and dangerous impacts. The players are conditioned to expect collisions and they live with them in training and during games. I'm not saying fist fighting is ok, I'm saying rugby is already a form of controlled 'team boxing'.

To get back to football - football isn't designed for such physicality. Players have minds conditioned to playing a ball at their feet, evading opposition players with deft touches and getting points by kicking a ball into a net. Most players aren't conditioned to expect any great physicality so when it happens it IS somehow much more raw and brutal than what usually goes on in rugby. I know there'll be people who say there is no difference but I still insist there is. A street fight makes people want to throw up at the sheer animal violence of it, a cage fight is virtually the same violence but tolerated because it's part of the 'sport'. Two views of the same actions.

Violence in football (and acts of intimidation during a game) resemble the street fight much more than the cage fight. It's dangrous as an act itself, and as something observed, because it's unleashing emotions and actions that are not a normal variation of the game itself...and rugby players do not encircle the refs threateningly, even if they chase after each other with fists.
The ref is the topic we're adressing as regards respect for his role...and it is much more solid in rugby than in football - by design and by rules implemented to keep it so.

I can't be bothered to read back, but has anyone mentioned Rio Ferdinand yet? It's an absolute disgrace that he isn't facing any punishment for his clapping in the referee's face at the final whistle.

The message couldn't be clearer: that football's governing bodies do not care about disrespect towards referees.