Groves or Degale v Clev in the future?

We have all heard it said that Groves v Froch might happen, a fight that is more likely now that George is with Hearn. Personally, I don't like Froch v Groves. The timing isn't there for me, because Froch would flatten him now, is 35 and really should be retired by the time Groves is ready. But Groves v Clev (providing Clev makes the switch from Warren, and even if he doesn't) what about that?

Or how about Degale v Clev? Clev should consider Ch5 as an option, simply for the terrestrial angle. Now, again I am assuming it contractual possible for Clev to jump ship, but if he can, how about Degale? Degale is ambitious, which I like, and both styles make for an exciting fight: Both have good engines, fast hands and throw in combos. But both lack power and have terrible defence. So why not build that? A big, British money spinning fight on SKY or ch5. Come on Clev, show some ambition and leave Fishy Face.

Groves, Degale and Clev are of the same boxing era. all are British, and are coming up at same rate. Yes Clev is a paper champ, but forget that, he has fought nobody. I would love to see Degale or Groves fight Clev in the future at LH or at a CW that suits all parties. How likely is this to happen?

To be fair, Froch is also a paper champ. The best paper champ out there. At this stage Froch will spank Groves, JdG and Clev without much fuss.

James is the most talented of the 3 young guns, but has a tendancy to sit back and admire his work. When he puts it together he looks the part. Groves is one of those guys who will always give James issues. Perhaps he just knows how to beat him. James could beat all the best out there whereas Groves cant but would probably beat James.

As for Clev he is so far under he radar he is rendered invisible which is a shame because he is a decent fighter with a terrific engine and boundless stamina. Lets hope they all get it together and have a mino 1990s version of our super mids.

froch against degale might be interesting. i would expect froch to win, but i think it would be much more competitive than froch against clev or groves

Degale sparred Clev alot while under warren, so it'll be interesting to see how it goes

Can't really see how year fights canbe made, Groves is with matchroom and sky, Clev is with Boxnation ad Warren and Degale is with Hennessy ad C5

Think Clev's size and stamina will be a major influence against 2 smaller guys but all off them are hard to predict as none have really had runs agaisnt opposition that have really tested them

Groves did not beat Degale, I dont care what anyone said, if the fight was a draw then I would have still said Degale was a little unlucky even though he clearly under rated Groves and came in with a very immature mind set.

As for Clev I think he does need to step up but signs tell me he can, Bellew for a world title in his own back yard is hardly a push over and even if some might think Bellew was unlucky it was a very competitive fight. He has gone to the US and has not looked fazed either and is still relatively young.

I think Froch would beat Groves as it would be a bit of a tare up and while Groves has very good power and can hit with speed so is allways a big danger, but he also does not respond well when hit and while he might give Froch some very competitive early rounds I think Froch is tough enough to deal with it as the fight goes on Froch will have him.. Groves has shown some improvements in his fights. With his main strength being his power and blasting people out I do get the feeling he only has so much of it in his tank and when its not there there's not much else.. IMO.

Cleverly VS Froch is harder to call because of the weight, Froch is not really a big super middleweight and does not look like he is eager to jump up and if Clev came down I think he would get beat easy. I think its too much of a compromise for either really.

Degale I think could give Froch problems if he managed to keep the fight at range more and not get caught on the ropes so much.. Degales chin is not bad and while at times he has slapped a bit and shown his amateur habbits too much, he has also shown at times to have some spite to his punches... I think Degale could win a fight like Ward did although I would expect him to have to work allot harder for it..

I had Groves winning.

azania wrote:To be fair, Froch is also a paper champ. The best paper champ out there. At this stage Froch will spank Groves, JdG and Clev without much fuss.

James is the most talented of the 3 young guns, but has a tendancy to sit back and admire his work. When he puts it together he looks the part. Groves is one of those guys who will always give James issues. Perhaps he just knows how to beat him. James could beat all the best out there whereas Groves cant but would probably beat James.

As for Clev he is so far under he radar he is rendered invisible which is a shame because he is a decent fighter with a terrific engine and boundless stamina. Lets hope they all get it together and have a mino 1990s version of our super mids.

I can't see Froch would have the power or the engine to trouble Cleverly, also consider that he's scared shetless of the light heavies anyway!

It's a shame Warren's latest card has been scuppered because Cleverly was starting thinking about (finally!) doing what he should have been doing all along, ie. fighting mandatories and testing himself. The Krasniqi fight followed by Brahmer were certainly steps in the right direction. Alas, his career is in neutral again!

Froch has underrated boxing skills. Clev would meat him head on. Clev doesn't have the power to worry Froch or the skill to avoid him. Froch via clear UD for me. Quantity will come from Clev. Quality from Froch.

Cleverly got outboxed by Bellew for large parts of there fights and Bellew is nowhere near Froch's level

The only way Clev can win is hope Froch's power/chin doesn't travel up to LHW well as he's an average sized supermiddle as Clev is a pretty big LHW

That's true Froch is scared of the 175lbers, him not stepping has had nothing to do with him a) not needing to and b) the better fights being at 168lbs. It has nothing to do with him, Kessler or Ward being wary of the slightly bigger guys but basic common sense that the division offers very little to them.

I think Froch would walk through both Groves and Degale with relative ease especially the latter who just doesn't carry enough power to trouble him, Cleverly stylistically would be a bit trickier but i'd fancy Frochs quality over Clevs quantity.

P.s. Groves deserved the nod over Degale, very close fight but he won his rounds that little bit clearer.

"The only way Clev can win........."

Froch isn't young..........and Kessler will be a hard fight......

A year...two years down the road will he be the same fighter???

Folly to suggest the bigger Clev couldn't beat an aging Froch.......

However If he's still with warren forget it.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:"The only way Clev can win........."

Froch isn't young..........and Kessler will be a hard fight......

A year...two years down the road will he be the same fighter???

Folly to suggest the bigger Clev couldn't beat an aging Froch.......

However If he's still with warren forget it.

Agree that once Froch starts showing his age and the wars take their toll, he could be beaten by Clev. But this Froch wouldn't be. As for Groves and Degale. Froch would eat them both for breakfst as it stands. Groves by KO inside 8. And Degale by 10th. Degale has a better chin, but a terrible defence

Clev is taller, has a bigger reach.....and on the night would probably be ten/fifteen pounds heavier and can take a great shot....

I just don't see how it's obvious Froch wins when he won't be able to hurt him..

azania wrote:To be fair, Froch is also a paper champ. The best paper champ out there. At this stage Froch will spank Groves, JdG and Clev without much fuss.

So, by deductive reasoning, any champ that isn't the divisional #1 is also a paper champ?

I.e. Vit, Cloud, Golovkin, PBF@154, Bradley, JMM, Abril, Rigo, etc.....

tunes666 wrote:Groves did not beat Degale, I dont care what anyone said,

Well that's that then.

Except it's not because Groves is 2-0....

Both matches would do nothing to enhance Cleverly's reputaion in the world of boxing and would only be big over here. It would be short term gain over long term profit, in my opinion.

would the fighters even make the same weight? personally i think groves and degale have a little way to go on there own paths at the moment, both are really just decent prospects at euro level atm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Clev is taller, has a bigger reach.....and on the night would probably be ten/fifteen pounds heavier and can take a great shot....

I just don't see how it's obvious Froch wins when he won't be able to hurt him..

For all the use he makes of it Clev may as well have the reach of a T rex.

Not sure where the rep for Clev's chin comes from. Has he fought any real punchers? They call him "Bomber" but Bellew's not actually a dynamite puncher like he believes he is. Mcknezie was still very much conscious when the ref stepped in, he waited until old Miranda was panting before stopping him.

Unless seven pounds of weight changes Froch entirely I wouldn't give Nathan much of a hope. Too open to punishment. Look what happened the moment Froch's level of opposition went from elite to fringe level: WKO3. It could be an entertaining fight, but Nathan's too open and inexperienced. With Froch even 70% as good as he was in his last two outings he'd treat Clev like a heavybag in my opinion, Groves like a speedball and Degale like a Romanian.

Bellew is a 175 pound quality puncher....

Froch is a small super middle....

That's what I disagree with; he hasn't shown himself to stand out in the punch power department in any way other than calling himself bomber.

Froch may be a small super middle, but the only people who go the distance with him are either elite-chinned or near impossible to hit clean. I don't think Cleverly is either of those. I might be proven wrong on him not having an elite chin, certainly not on the other bit though. Cleverly also has little in the way of offense to worry Froch. Yes he throws a lot of punches but they're not great quality and Froch's chin is proven beyond doubt.

I don't think the extra 7lbs would bother Froch if he's facing Cleverly, he's faced and beaten better more powerful fighters. There's very little in it for him as he has better options open to him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bellew is a 175 pound quality quantity puncher....

Froch is a small super middle....

Corrected for you.

Clev isn't quite feather-fisted, he's got better, but he's no ko specialist and he'd be against a guy with a proven granite chin.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:Cleverly got outboxed by Bellew for large parts of there fights and Bellew is nowhere near Froch's level

Think you are under rating Bellew, he is a very good fighter.. as is clev. Take Froches best wins make the opponent go up and weight and fight Bellew and which one do you have clearly winning? I think Ward would and maybe Kessler, both of whom beat Froch though.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

tunes666 wrote:Groves did not beat Degale, I dont care what anyone said,

Well that's that then.

Except it's not because Groves is 2-0....

He was robbed the first time too.. but if amateur fights are worth mentioning.. then why did Degale win a gold and Groves not even make the team?

I score fights by most clean punches landed, Groves was on the back foot throwing scrappy counters all night, ok in about 2 rounds he caught Degale with some decent shots and left him flat footed allot... for the rest of the fight while there were some scrappy rounds Degale was clearly landing the cleaner punches and even had Groves in trouble a couple times. the only reason Groves came close in the fight was because Degale under rated him and was looking for "The Shot" that he thought would knock Groves out. Add that to the anti Degale pre fight antics crowed, and we get our robbery.

It was no robbery, quite simply end of discussion.

Not sure you can call the Groves vs Degale fight a robbery. A close fight that could have gone either way and I think both fighters know that.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:To be fair, Froch is also a paper champ. The best paper champ out there. At this stage Froch will spank Groves, JdG and Clev without much fuss.

So, by deductive reasoning, any champ that isn't the divisional #1 is also a paper champ?

I.e. Vit, Cloud, Golovkin, PBF@154, Bradley, JMM, Abril, Rigo, etc.....

Well Froch has fought and lost to the best though so its pretty clear he is not the best in the division. Guys like Cloud, Vitali, Rigondeaux have a stronger claim to be the man at their weight. I dont think any of them are at the moment but it hasnt been as conclusively proven as in Frochs case.

I would say any champion who holds a title and is proven to not be the best at their weight has to be classified as a paper champion, even if they are good fighters.

I would disagree with that, Froch is a legitimate world title holder, the likes of Rigondeaux and Cloud have yet to face any divisional rivals which of course is about to change but both are the very definition of paper champion. There are three different categories as far as i'm concerned.

World champion- Proven to be the best in the division; i.e. Martinez or Ward
World title holder- Not the best but has a high level of opposition; i.e. Froch or Burns
Paper champion- Yet to face any divisional rival, gifted a title; i.e. Cleverly, Cloud or Malignaggi

Have to agree with this, a Paper champion is someone who holds a belt but has yet to face a divisional rival.

A World title holder is someone who has boxed most if not all of his divisonal rivals but has not conclusively proven himself to be number one.

A World champion is the best in the division.


* Ward had the easiest route to the final in the Super Six, and didn't even have to fight what was then his much anticipated fight with Andre Dirrell. So you can still make a case that Froch, although being number two on account of the head to head loss, can marginally, still said to have the better opposition than Ward.

So no, for me, Froch is anything but a Paper champion.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:It was no robbery, quite simply end of discussion.

I agree with your second statement, the first is fresh from a bucket of Degale hater stew...

hampo171 wrote:Not sure you can call the Groves vs Degale fight a robbery. A close fight that could have gone either way and I think both fighters know that.

I would say messy fight more than close and one that most were very surprised to not see Degale find it easier work... just because it was close it does not merrit a victory for Groves who only one about 2 clear rounds... Degale had about 4 clear rounds and the rest where close.

Give over, Tunes. I'd generally question what scoring methods you'd have to be using if you think that fight falls in to anything like the 'robbery' category.

Groves by one point or a maximum of two, DeGale by one point or a maximum of two, or a draw - any of those returns are fine, but the fight was seriously close so no matter which of those outcomes you saw, it can't be seen as a robbery. DeGale had Groves "in trouble" as you say mostly via that big head clash in the latter rounds rather than any big punches and fell in to the trap of being on the forward march without really letting any leather go.

There were some awfully close and turgid rounds (I remember one, think it was in the middle stages, where literally no shots were thrown for the first minute at all, maybe even a shade longer!). I can see why some might have given DeGale the nod, though I tend to think that Groves won it by the tightest of tight margins (I had it 115-114 on fight night, a six rounds apiece draw when I first re-watched it and then 115-114 to Groves again when I saw it about two or three months back) but I wouldn't have been moaning about an injustice had DeGale had his arm raised.

Arguing that DeGale was sawn off when it was in fact an extremely close fight and a scrappy one to score is nearly as bad as your argument that Lamont Peterson's failed drugs test was engineered and set up by Khan and his team. No robbery there at all.

I await your response in which you'll no doubt tell me that I'm just a DeGale 'hater.'

The only other person I've heard call that fight a robbery was Frank Warren straight after the final bell. Are you Frank Warren Tunes?

Herman Jaggery wrote:Have to agree with this, a Paper champion is someone who holds a belt but has yet to face a divisional rival.

A World title holder is someone who has boxed most if not all of his divisonal rivals but has not conclusively proven himself to be number one.

A World champion is the best in the division.


* Ward had the easiest route to the final in the Super Six, and didn't even have to fight what was then his much anticipated fight with Andre Dirrell. So you can still make a case that Froch, although being number two on account of the head to head loss, can marginally, still said to have the better opposition than Ward.

So no, for me, Froch is anything but a Paper champion.

My own interpretation of a paper champion would differ. I think there should be only one world champion per division. At SMW that is clearly Ward. Froch is a world title holder, there is no argument there. But I dont see the point in recognising this tier or type of champion because it doesnt make any sense and advocaates a multi belt system. Froch is a world class fighter but he isnt the best at his weight and surely the point of a world title is to recognise the best fighter at the weight. A paper champion to me is someone who holds a world title but is not the real world champion. In most division the multi belt system has opened up this to dispute in varying degrees of strength. SMW is one of the few where I think there is a clear number 1.

I think it's a bit insulting to label someone as good as Froch in the same way we would Cleverly when they are worlds apart in ability and record.

Froch is also the third best fightet at his weight. A world belt holder and also the world's best paper champion. Sad but true. Undeniably a very good fighter but paper champion regardless.

Also Cleverly was gifted his title whereas Froch ripped his from an undefeated and fancied champion of several years

Depends on your definition. Froch beat a reigning champion for his belt, so although he isn't divisional number one he is a legit world champion in my opinion.

Not sure If you lose to another world champion at your weight.........ie Ward.

How you can be a legitimate world champion...By definition..

By beating a reigning world champion.

Ideal world there's only one belt. This ain't an ideal world and I don't think it's right throw a fighter who beats an established champ in with fighters who are gifted vacated belts.

"World Champion" is by definition Champion of the World.....

It's semantics I know..............But doesn't help when the guy that slapped your butt is till champion at the same weight..

He isn't by definition WORLD champion.............But he is world class.

Fair enough, I just don't see him as worthy of the "paper" tag either seen as he won it in the ring against a guy who'd had the belt since 2007.

Although there seemed to be a gulf in class between him and ward.......I certainly admire his choice of opposition.

hampo171 wrote:The only other person I've heard call that fight a robbery was Frank Warren straight after the final bell. Are you Frank Warren Tunes?

Most of the boxing pro's think Degale won that fight, and Frank Warren backed up his views that Degale won it even after Degale left him and he was looking after Groves... Groves had xmas early and would lose a rematch, watch this space.

Close fights can go either way. By definition it cannot be a robbery.

I personally had it one point to degale but I was watching it in a party of 8 I think, we had it 4 to degale, 3 to groves and a draw, hardly a robbery given that there is a good case that can be made for both winning

tunes666 wrote:

hampo171 wrote:The only other person I've heard call that fight a robbery was Frank Warren straight after the final bell. Are you Frank Warren Tunes?

Most of the boxing pro's think Degale won that fight, and Frank Warren backed up his views that Degale won it even after Degale left him and he was looking after Groves... Groves had xmas early and would lose a rematch, watch this space.

Now you just sound like Gordy

Groves came in with a better game plan and executed it whereas DeGale couldn't adapt (if he was that much better a boxer he would have). Given DeGale had a losing record to Groves coming into the fight and it was undeniably the toughest fight of his career there is no excuse to say JDG just came in unprepared or took Groves lightly.

And to say "Groves had xmas early and would lose a rematch" is just pure nut-huggery. Same way everyone wrote GG off before they thought and look what happened, first time anyone asked real questions of JDG and he was a fish out of water.

If they'd fought 8 weeks after they'd first fought, I'd have picked Degale to make some adjustments and get the win. However, since the first fight I haven't seen enough of them...... which is partly my fault, and partly theirs and Warrens (for not fighting enough). I just don't have an interest in watching these two again. If they fought next week, then it'd probably depend on who's improved the most the last 2 years. I'd go for Groves, but again, it might just depend on the night, which makes for a more interesting fight.

I think they're both capable of beating eachother, which is what makes it interesting. Saying one is so clear cut to defeat the other, given their history, is a little baseless and silly.

TopHat24/7 wrote:I think they're both capable of beating each other, which is what makes it interesting.

Great minds and all that....again!