Ulster Squad 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a thread we can use to discuss next seasons squad, signings, departures etc.

Kicking off with the news James McKinney looks set to return. That, coupled with the news that Michael Heaney is set to for another two seasons after this year and the emergence of Stuart Olding, leaves us with great depth in the halfback positions.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/james-mckinney-set-for-ulster-return-1-4875769#.UTk2IS-FU4Q.twitter

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11252.php

So where else do we need to strengthen- tighthead?

Time will tell Dodge, it would be a massive coup, he's a step up from Afoa imo.

Franks did sign a 3 year deal with the AB's last year mind.

Firstly I do not know which Franks so it could well be bro who can, I believe, play both sides.

Regarding those salary figures I think 350,000 is closer than 400,000 but the point remains big money which only France and Japan can beat.
If he asks for Kaino type money it will be dead in the water but the same as Afoa would be ok as we have already budgeted for that.

The key point is Afoa wants out but being a decent sort of fella he seems to be trying to make arrangements so that we are not in the lurch. As I said before a nice earner like the above, for a year, has to be tempting fo anybody. A player could almost arrange a release from his existing club to cover Oct to May and not even leave his current club.

Sorry Geoff just to clarify you are suggesting that Afoa may be going at the end of this season?

BelfastDickVet wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

I'm perturbed by Earl's inclusion, does that count?

No. Because you are on your own on that one.

No hes not

+1

+1

Infact almost all Ireland fans I speak to feel the same way!!!

Would they also be Trimble/Cave & Ulster fans?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Simple a limit on money spent on imports - problem solved.

All Provinces are being pushed towards only 3 NIQ for 2014-15 anyway so that will become less of an issue.

Doing it this way is an incentive though. Take Peter O'Mahony for instance - he was fastracked by Munster (captaining Munster in his first season several times) and now has a central contract. Thats a bonus for Munster (& Ireland). Compare him to Ruddock, already capped who has gone backwards a bit at Leinster. Ruddock will be good enough for Leinster's requirements - will he be good enough for Ireland's though.

Having as good a team as possible with a strick limit of NIQ players and money paid to them is incentive enough.
I do not see any logic in being satisfied with less than the best or how Central Contracts make that more likely.
As has been established Central Contracts seem to be more to do with horse trading than retaining the key Irish players in Ireland.

As to the two players you mention - Ruddock is not good enough for Leinster. He is not good enough to make any of the 3 senior Provinces backrows even if we ignore the NIQ. If a POM like player came along Leinster would replace Ruddock with him in a flash Central contract or no Central contract

It plainly isn't enough of an incentive and that is why there is such a problem with the lack of IQ props.

Ruddock is only gone 22 - so its a bit early to write him off yet. POM is a far better player now than he was a year ago.

sin e your logic doesn't stake up.

To take Ulster as an example just because they took on some high profile foreigners a couple of years ago does not mean they re not open to developing local players. Lets be honest we were a bit of a shambles at the time but they are very expensive.

If you add this to the drive to only 3 NIQ in 18 months then clearly developing local talent is at a premium.

We all know that Ulster was badly run in the pre Logan/Humphreys era - that was the problem not a lack of desire. We are already starting to see a stream of quality young lads coming through the ranks - there are plenty more where they came from.

The future will be 85% Ulster born players/95% Irish qualified players I am convinced of that.

rodders wrote:Sorry Geoff just to clarify you are suggesting that Afoa may be going at the end of this season?

I am saying he wants to go home this summer.
His wife does not want to live here.
However he does not want to leave us in the lurch.

My guess is that if a replacement is found we will release him from his contract.
If no he will honour it with plenty of flights back home.

geoff998rugby wrote:sin e your logic doesn't stake up.

To take Ulster as an example just because they took on some high profile foreigners a couple of years ago does not mean they re not open to developing local players. Lets be honest we were a bit of a shambles at the time but they are very expensive.

If you add this to the drive to only 3 NIQ in 18 months then clearly developing local talent is at a premium.

We all know that Ulster was badly run in the pre Logan/Humphreys era - that was the problem not a lack of desire. We are already starting to see a stream of quality young lads coming through the ranks - there are plenty more where they came from.

The future will be 85% Ulster born players/95% Irish qualified players I am convinced of that.

It doesn't matter how many lQ players is produced, what does matter is that the players being produced are spread all over the team (i.e., a generous supply of backs, but no outhalfs, scrumhalfs or props).

Taking Munster as an example - at the moment BJ Botha & Wian are an aid to Munster & Ireland for two reasons, Penney hasn't let them block the development of Irish qualified players like Kilcoyne & Archer and they have filled a hole for Munster the team. Munster would love to keep both BJ & Wian, but the IRFU don't want them to because its getting to a stage where both BJ & Wian will be blocking Archer & Kilcoyne's development.

(Personally, I think we need them for another year and should be fine after that but BJ wants a 2 year contract and will go elsewhere if he doesn't get it).

Yea but Sine look at Ulster this season so far. Second and third choices have gotten plenty of gametime.

You can't exactly argue that the NIQ's have resulted in no gametimes for IQs

Marshall and Heaney have played at 9.

Diack and Wilson have played at 8

Tuohy, Stevenson, Mccomb, Henderson have played 4/5

Fitzpatrick and Macklin have played 3

Andrew and Nelson (and D'arcy) have played at 15

P.S. your argument suggests that it is for the good of Ireland you want the IQs developed. I was unaware you were so passionate about the improvement Ulster's international representation...

So... if we get rid of Pienaar, you will be eagerly supporting Paul Marshall in his dramatic step up to his potential as Ireland's number one Scrum-half?

Or do you just actually want us to have less NIQs because it might make us more beatable as a club???

clivemcl wrote:Yea but Sine look at Ulster this season so far. Second and third choices have gotten plenty of gametime.

You can't exactly argue that the NIQ's have resulted in no gametimes for IQs

Marshall and Heaney have played at 9.

Diack and Wilson have played at 8

Tuohy, Stevenson, Mccomb, Henderson have played 4/5

Fitzpatrick and Macklin have played 3

Andrew and Nelson (and D'arcy) have played at 15

P.S. your argument suggests that it is for the good of Ireland you want the IQs developed. I was unaware you were so passionate about the improvement Ulster's international representation...

So... if we get rid of Pienaar, you will be eagerly supporting Paul Marshall in his dramatic step up to his potential as Ireland's number one Scrum-half?

Or do you just actually want us to have less NIQs because it might make us more beatable as a club???

Very definitely the latter clive - several Munster fans are complaining about our NIQ's particularly at TH cause its a factor in our success. In all honesty though I think we have a much better academy than Munster anyway and are better coached by Anscombe compared to Penny. There are a lot of reasons why we have overtaken Munster and our NIQ's are only one factor.

geoff998rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:Sorry Geoff just to clarify you are suggesting that Afoa may be going at the end of this season?

I am saying he wants to go home this summer.
His wife does not want to live here.
However he does not want to leave us in the lurch.

My guess is that if a replacement is found we will release him from his contract.
If no he will honour it with plenty of flights back home.

Yeah thanks Geoff, I'd heard something to this effect before. Thats a real shame Afoa has been a monstrous player for us, in many ways he's had as big an impact as Pienaar.

Wouldn't begrudge him an early release but very sorry to see him go though, should he leave early.

I think your right some Munster fans begrudge Ulster their current success, for them Ulster are upstarts, they do forget that the 3 Provinces always tended to go in cycles of being the top team, this will apply to a certain extent to the Professional game as well.

To be honest Leinster are going to be entering a rebuilding phase next year, and Ulster should become top province, after a number of years it should be Munster on top again, (they are in the rebuilding phase currently), I suspect though that while Ulster and Munster at different times will be top to 3rd Province, Leinster will generally be top or 2nd province, they just have that bigger population and revenue that will keep them at or near the top, and thier low cycle will not be as low as Munster and Ulster.

2000-2008 Munster
2009-2012 Leinster
2013-???? Ulster?

Of cousre Leinster will not give up top spot without a fight, same as when Leinster overtook Munster. Its also hard to say dates exact as Munster still won the Pro 12 in 10/11

Kingshu wrote:I think your right some Munster fans begrudge Ulster their current success, for them Ulster are upstarts, they do forget that the 3 Provinces always tended to go in cycles of being the top team, this will apply to a certain extent to the Professional game as well.

To be honest Leinster are going to be entering a rebuilding phase next year, and Ulster should become top province, after a number of years it should be Munster on top again, (they are in the rebuilding phase currently), I suspect though that while Ulster and Munster at different times will be top to 3rd Province, Leinster will generally be top or 2nd province, they just have that bigger population and revenue that will keep them at or near the top, and thier low cycle will not be as low as Munster and Ulster.

2000-2008 Munster
2009-2012 Leinster
2013-???? Ulster?

Of cousre Leinster will not give up top spot without a fight, same as when Leinster overtook Munster. Its also hard to say dates exact as Munster still won the Pro 12 in 10/11

2/5/09 exact enough for you?
Munster didn't give a shyte about the Magners at that point. (In fairness the comp has grown steadily since it's inception)

The previous month they were putting 6 tries past the Ospreys and looking like they were going to add a wide game to their previous 10 man rugby. That day they were on their asses. It may have taken a season for them to realise it but that was the moment.

If Ulster come down and beat us next week, that may be a handover point for you lads.
After all (and prepare to hear this phrase a lot in the next week or so, cause I am going to overuse it.)

The last time Ulster beat Leinster outside Ravenhill was in the same millennium as the battle of Hastings (So prepare for a fight)

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
If Ulster come down and beat us next week, that may be a handover point for you lads.
After all (and prepare to hear this phrase a lot in the next week or so, cause I am going to overuse it.)

The last time Ulster beat Leinster outside Ravenhill was in the same millennium as the battle of Hastings (So prepare for a fight)

Ulster for my mind have already taken over from Leinster as the top provincial side. I'm not sure on an exact date .... maybe when Big Bad Brad Thorn left, Tommy Bowe touched down in Belfast, Jared Payne completed his rehab or Leo Cullen celebrated his 50th birthday..... but it has happened and the onfield results and performances will continue to enforce this over the next season or so.

Munster are on a hiding to nothing and Leinster are looking into the abyss - the exodus has begun.... Connacht will be our main provincial rivals going forward.

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
If Ulster come down and beat us next week, that may be a handover point for you lads.
After all (and prepare to hear this phrase a lot in the next week or so, cause I am going to overuse it.)

The last time Ulster beat Leinster outside Ravenhill was in the same millennium as the battle of Hastings (So prepare for a fight)

Ulster for my mind have already taken over from Leinster as the top provincial side. I'm not sure on an exact date .... maybe when Big Bad Brad Thorn left, Tommy Bowe touched down in Belfast, Jared Payne completed his rehab or Leo Cullen celebrated his 50th birthday..... but it has happened and the onfield results and performances will continue to enforce this over the next season or so.

Munster are on a hiding to nothing and Leinster are looking into the abyss - the exodus has begun.... Connacht will be our main provincial rivals going forward.

And that's where it may always remain.

And by the way Leo is nearly 5 years younger than Simon Shaw.

Simon shaw is 55?!

rodders wrote:Simon shaw is 55?!

Very good rodders

Dunno where else to put this;

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/20553.php#.UUxLP46RnzI

Ulster register Olding, Annett and Warwick for the Heineken Cup. Only Olding will realistically play, hopefully.

See Toulon registering Rocky Elsom and Danie Roussow? When does it end with them...

And Munster don't register CJ Stander? What the hell is going on there.

clivemcl wrote:Yea but Sine look at Ulster this season so far. Second and third choices have gotten plenty of gametime.

You can't exactly argue that the NIQ's have resulted in no gametimes for IQs

Marshall and Heaney have played at 9.

Diack and Wilson have played at 8

Tuohy, Stevenson, Mccomb, Henderson have played 4/5

Fitzpatrick and Macklin have played 3

Andrew and Nelson (and D'arcy) have played at 15

P.S. your argument suggests that it is for the good of Ireland you want the IQs developed. I was unaware you were so passionate about the improvement Ulster's international representation...

So... if we get rid of Pienaar, you will be eagerly supporting Paul Marshall in his dramatic step up to his potential as Ireland's number one Scrum-half?

Or do you just actually want us to have less NIQs because it might make us more beatable as a club???

I'm not doubting the effort - but the results are not so good for Ireland's supply of key players like props, scrumhalfs etc.

My point is that would for instance Munster work as hard at developing Archer* & Kilcoyne if they thought they could just sign another prop.

*Not many would have given Archer much hope of making it as a TH - now he has well surpassed his apparently better abled contempories.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:And Munster don't register CJ Stander? What the hell is going on there.

We're sending him back to africa .....




(joke).

Probably to do with him getting injured in October and having to put Coughlan (coming back from injury) back on and then needing to list another scrumhalf (strings with Bath) and then register Dineen as Zebo, Earls & Luke O'Dea are injured.

You can only register 2 non front rowers.

I’ve heard from a pretty reliable source that the Ulster boys aren’t happy with Anscombe and don’t rate him- Humph knows this but can’t really backtrack on the appointment.

Anyone (Geoff) heard anything similar?

This is not a wum by the way

Funny, I heard the exact opposite.

Nope not heard that - in fact pre season the players were positively effusive about him.

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves when talking about being top dog. We are still behind Leinster im my view.
Next year could well be different.

However at the end of 2014 we are not guaranteed the services of
Payne, Afoa (definitely going), Muller (probably retiring), Pienaer, Ferris (Japan/Retirement). Also I suspect only one of Williams/Wilson. (my moneys on Williams staying)

I would wait till we see the squad for 2014/15 before we can claim to be top dog. Humphreys has the hardest year ever ahead of him.

On another matter I have it on good authority Heaney not Marshall is seen as the replacement for Pienaer when he goes.

Is Afoa leaving???

I would be more positive about Heaney given their respective ages. We are certainly behind Leinster at present although we are closer than previously.

Payne I would hope will stay. Taking Pienaar out of the equation surely a back line including Payne (hopefully he'll stay), Bwe, Trimble, Gilroy, Nelson, Farrell, Allen, Cave, Marshall, Olding and Jackson is good enough and all IQ enough!

It's up front we need work. We could really use one of O'connor or Simpson being the real deal and Paddy Mac having an injury free run

Yep his wife hated it here - in fact she went home and gave birth there. No intention of returning.

Will defintely not renew his contract up at the end of next season and if, reliable, rumours are to be believed he is trying to get a good replacement in so that he can leave early.

The name in the frame is Ben Franks

Is it Ben and not Owen then Geoff?

I know Ben signed a 3 year deal this year but he seems more realistic than Owen.

You sure Geoff? Pretty sure Ben Franks just signed a 2 or 3 year contact extension?

They've both have signed extensions in the last year Stag.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:They've both have signed extensions in the last year Stag.

Even more puzzling. Any why sign Ben Franks? He is mainly a loosehead. I don't see Owen Franks making the move to Ulster.

Yea I don't see Owen moving either.

Franks plays both sides, much better LH though I agree.

Covers both sides though stag and along with experimenting with paddy mac would be our THs. Haven't heard anyone say it's likely, just that it is being explored

I can see Hagan going to either Ulster of Munster next season. He was really good when he came on against Glasgow.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I can see Hagan going to either Ulster of Munster next season. He was really good when he came on against Glasgow.

Hagan to Ulster makes the most sense.

In fairness, a Franks move was mentioned yesterday and Geoff did say it was "rumoured" above - sounds like a non-starter right enough

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I can see Hagan going to either Ulster of Munster next season. He was really good when he came on against Glasgow.

Hagan to Ulster makes the most sense.

Agreed. We'll take Moore as well while we are at it

IRFU should be willing to supplement Hagans wages if he moves to Ulster.

Ulster have had a foreign tighthead since 2008. If they sign another one that will make it about 7-8 years of having a foreign tight head in our most troubling position.

IRFU need to do something especially as Fitzpatricks fitness ain't the best.

They should be saying to Hagan that there is a chance of a high wage and playing a good level rugby if he joins Ulster.

No way!! Moore will never leave us. He's already a fan favourite.

To be fair it was Simon Best's unfortunate early retirement, that has really left the Ulster tighthead void, thats been filled by NIQ's. Normally you'd expect him to be only retiring now not 2007. Back in 2007 Ulster were not as strong in depth or resources as we are now, and had to get a top NIQ prop to replace him, however it is fair we should have had someone when BJ moved to Munster.

Kingshu wrote:To be fair it was Simon Best's unfortunate early retirement, that has really left the Ulster tighthead void, thats been filled by NIQ's. Normally you'd expect him to be only retiring now not 2007. Back in 2007 Ulster were not as strong in depth or resources as we are now, and had to get a top NIQ prop to replace him, however it is fair we should have had someone when BJ moved to Munster.

And its fair that you should certainly have someone when Afoa leaves in 2014.

Any replacement may well only be for 1 year i.e. the remainder of Afoa's contract.
Ben is more likely because he playes both sides and is not a All Black regular. As I said elsewhere someone could be signed for Oct to May and with a bit of negotiating not even give up their existing contract - that seems possible to me.

Afoa seeing out his contract with frequent visits home would still seem the most likely scenario.

In truth it is arguable Munster should be allowed to re sign BJ either.

TH is a hell of an Irish dilemma.
Any other position and I reckon Dublin would not allow any of the 3 senior provinces sign a NIQ player ala fly half.

However no TH good enough would severly compromise a team and make them uncompetitive - Dublin do not want that to happen. Also chucking kids in too early at TH could be positively dangerous.

My solution would be for Munster and Ulster that one of them pays to gt Andress and the other takes Hagan and one of the promising Leinster boys (on loan for a year only). They might suffer but Ireland need to resolve this issue .

BJ being extended at Munster and Afoa or a replacement continuing at Ulster solves nothing. We need to bite the bullit and have no IQ TH after 2013-14 at the latest. From that premise lets arrange the available players the best we can.

Geoff,

I wouldnt mind if BJ didnt extend his deal at Munster. It would be painful but I believe that Archer could be a very decent prop. Possibly even the likes of Ryan and Cotter too.

Props need regular game time. I'd like to see the IRFU start to make formal deals with clubs in the Rugby Championship where we can introduce season long loan deals to get our young props over for 12 months going to the likes of Bristol, Newcastle, Rotterham, Cornish Pirates, Sale ( ) and Bedford each week scrummaging against gnarley experienced lads and cutting their teeth before returning back to the provinces.

The English club would get either revenue or a player without the cost of wages. The player would get experience and the province would benefit in the long run.

Munster were able to get Ryan and Cotter over to Bath and London Irish on short term loans this season. I think that a more focused version of this could pay dividends.

Ulster do loan out backs to the English Div 1.

I agree and I think it is exactly what Macklin needs - he is stagnating in the AIB the standard is not good enough

Well looks like no one is getting Hagan in Ireland then

http://www.london-irish.com/news/Irish90759.ink

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Well looks like no one is getting Hagan in Ireland then

http://www.london-irish.com/news/Irish90759.ink

Ireland is getting Hagan!

Hagan gets game time. If he does well in England we give him a chance. If he continues to do well we bring him back to Ireland in 2-3 years.

Indeed Stag, he'll learn well at Irish under Brian Smith. He'll do a Mike Ross and come back better than before. I was very impressed by him on Sat vs Glasgow actually. He seems to have come on quite a bit of recent!

Sorry but this makes no sense from an Ireland perspective.

Basically one more leaving Ireland meaning even more likely that 1 or 2 provinces will have NIQ TH's.

Michael Allen has just signed a two year contract.

Very well deserved he has really stepped up to the plate this year.