Ulster Squad 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a thread we can use to discuss next seasons squad, signings, departures etc.

Kicking off with the news James McKinney looks set to return. That, coupled with the news that Michael Heaney is set to for another two seasons after this year and the emergence of Stuart Olding, leaves us with great depth in the halfback positions.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/james-mckinney-set-for-ulster-return-1-4875769#.UTk2IS-FU4Q.twitter

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11252.php

So where else do we need to strengthen- tighthead?

Couldn't agree more Geoff he has played very well this year

Being reported on the Wireless (I like that word) that Ferris has turned down a pay as you play deal from Dublin and is, probably, off to Japan.

Disappointing but hardly surprising.

To be honest we need to settle the outstanding contract issues so we know where stand - Afoa, Wallace and Ferris

Afoa is the big one there Geoff. Fez is great but we have a replacement and he doesn't play enough. Wallace has been passed by Marshall and we have Olding. Should put Ulster in a strong bargaining position there.

To be honest with Afoa I can't see how any man can sustain living and working away from his family and especially newborns. Hagan out of the picture is disappointing as well

There are some Irish qualified props in France believe it or not - not world beaters but we might just try and get by with

Fitzpatrick, Macklin, McAllister, Lutton, Court, ANother for TH

Bit scary to be honest - someone needs to step up big time

I know Afoa talks of staying if no big replacement is found (ala Franks) but when push comes to shove -1st baby, wife in NZ - everyone knows where his heart and his mind will be.

Surely the logical solution is to sign another loosehead and get Tom Court to move to tighthead permanently.

Paddy McAllister and now Callum Black look good options at loosehead.

Ulster would also be allowed to sign a foreign tighthead. With Cian Healy and Dave Kilcoyne there are ample options there for Ireland and there are a lot more loosies available than tightheads.

Court has (I believe) played more times at tighthead than loosehead for Ireland. He is better at loosehead but a proper permanent move to the other side could work for him personally, for Ulster and for Ireland.

Completely agree Geoff. We don't need a permanently jet lagged Afoa either that is pining for home.

Im not sure how much of an option Fitz is this weather either. Would rather see us try to convert Paddy Mac Stag. It might be we have to take the pain of the scrum being weak while we are trying to get one of the younger lads up to speed

Stag let the Court TH thing go - it has been decided he will not be playing there except in an emergency.

It has been decided - it didn't work, it is not considered an option.
His technique doesn'st suit the position - it is McAllister that they will move over to TH not Court

I agree with leaving Court at LH

Geoff, I know you're saying they'll move McAllister. However I think they are better off looking at Court. Thats just my opinion.

I think its logical and I think I've done a good job in explaining why. I'm not going to suddenly change my mind just because Ulster have decided on a different player.

Fair enough but they have looked and decided otherwise - that is not going to change.

Court to TH is dead in the water as an option.

Stag, it makes people annoyed to read it because Court at TH for Ulster has been such a disaster on a consistent basis for Ulster. Compared to being one of the best LHs in the Heineken Cup this year.

The positional shift has obviously not worked. I'm not very keen on the McAllister to TH idea for the same reasons (if it happens) but at least it may work. We know now Court to TH won't work.

If we are so desperate for a TH why not move Kilcoyne across? He will not displace Healy, perhaps until Healy retires, and a competent coach would pick Court in front of him.

It's a real sign of how little Ulster think of John Andress that there is no serious offer for him.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If we are so desperate for a TH why not move Kilcoyne across? He will not displace Healy, perhaps until Healy retires, and a competent coach would pick Court in front of him.

It's a real sign of how little Ulster think of John Andress that there is no serious offer for him.

Is it not down more to Andress demands of money, more than Ulsters hierarchy believe his ability merits

Marty, in short no. Humphries will not touch him with a barge pole unless every other TH in the world spontaneous combusts. He has a very high opinion of himself and from what I understand his contract demands are way above his ability but certainly not outrageous. TH is a real problem for Ireland and he would be in a position of strength to get a contract. That said he is probably on a similar level to Mike Ross- a passable scrummager and next to useless around the pitch. We have learnt lessons about internal fighting in the squad post 2006 and I cannot for the life of me seeing him come to Ulster. If the IRFU had any desire to bring him back they could have persuaded Munster or Leinster or even Connacht. But they haven't. That speaks volumes

What about shifting Sean Cronin to TH? ...or is that too outside the box.....

rodders wrote:What about shifting Sean Cronin to TH? ...or is that too outside the box.....

No. But you were probably out of your box when you wrote it. The man's a centre!

Trust me Ulster did not cover themselves in glory regarding the Andress negotiations

It was a long way from being one way traffic in the blame stakes.
Not Humphs finest moment.

No they certainly didn't Geoff- not his finest hour indeed. Mind you it did work out for the best in the short term at least. From what I was told they never really wanted him at all. He was a back up deal to a back up deal to the first choice, all depending on which NIQ player they brought in.

Notch wrote:Stag, it makes people annoyed to read it because Court at TH for Ulster has been such a disaster on a consistent basis for Ulster. Compared to being one of the best LHs in the Heineken Cup this year.

The positional shift has obviously not worked. I'm not very keen on the McAllister to TH idea for the same reasons (if it happens) but at least it may work. We know now Court to TH won't work.

I would question the two points above in bold. Court has always been considered a loosehead for Ulster. On occasion he gets shunted to tighthead. As this is an infrequent occurrence its success cannot be accurately judged.

We don't know if the positional shift has worked. It has never been properly tried.

I can understand if people don't agree. Everyone has opinions. I really can't understand how this point annoys anyone though.

Obviously the best for Ulster is to be able to have a world class replacement for Afoa. But if that isn't an option and you're stuck with the cards you have then what's the problem?

Court to TH is high risk for a very short term gain. Mcallister to TH is risky but has a much higher reward

Standulstermen wrote:Court to TH is high risk for a very short term gain. Mcallister to TH is risky but has a much higher reward

A fair point Do you not think that McAllister lacks the experience though. Court would be a steady hand who has played international rugby at tighthead. He has some idea of what is required and he has played in big games.

Ulster and IMO Ireland would be better off with:

01 Ben Franks (or similar NIQ)
02 Rory Best
03 Tom Court

than

01 Tom Court
02 Rory Best
03 Paddy McAllister

You could say that stag but limited experience at LH might stand to him as he adapts to the different position.

Hagan away to the jeff isn't great. Also we might be a tad short in the backrow and we struggle to attract southerners up here it seems. As such we may have to see where we stand with NIQs too.

Hagan is not nor will he ever be even a passable international. I don't hold out much hope for Archer either. We do need to find a TH replacement for Ross.

He may not be but our options are Turd. He was probably the most realistic IQ option on the island for us though

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Hagan is not nor will he ever be even a passable international. I don't hold out much hope for Archer either.

They are big statements to throw around. How good was Mike Ross at 25 years old?

Mike Ross is 33 years old. 8 years ago he was playing for Munster where he managed one appearance all year; coming off the bench against Ulster in the interpros.

I think Hagan has made the right move and I think that in 12 months Archer will be starting for Munster. Give it time.

Ross is a barely passable international now. An adequate scrummager but extremely poor around the park and a penalty machine.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Ross is a barely passable international now. An adequate scrummager but extremely poor around the park and a penalty machine.

Agreed. He looks totally shot. Every game he is gone midway into the second half.

I think red_stag is right there wasn't really an experiment of Court at TH for Ulster, more thrown in at TH when needed and hoped for the best. It wasn't like we ever went Court is going to be TH for next 3 games lets get him coaching and practising exclusivly at TH. Is was always loosehead, and maybe some practise at TH if the need arose, not exclusily TH.

However I like others here think that it may be a bit late to teach an old dog new tricks, if he was 27/28 then maybe try him exclusily at TH. For me McAllister as the younger man with more time to learn the trade is the better option to experiment with.

Rodders I agree, which technically means I am also agreeing with myself. Ross is a professional rugby player- there is simply no excuse for being overweight and unfit. It is simply not acceptable.

I was thinking if Ulster signed a player like Brendon O'Connor from the Blues with a name like that would anyone check he isn't IQ?

All we need do is get someone like Owen Franks to change thier name to Eoin Og O'Frank and nobody would check.

Kingshu wrote:I was thinking if Ulster signed a player like Brendon O'Connor from the Blues with a name like that would anyone check he isn't IQ?

All we need do is get someone like Owen Franks to change thier name to Eoin Og O'Frank and nobody would check.

Ah, the London Welsh approach to eligibility!

I don't think its going to work out

Kingshu wrote:I think red_stag is right there wasn't really an experiment of Court at TH for Ulster, more thrown in at TH when needed and hoped for the best. It wasn't like we ever went Court is going to be TH for next 3 games lets get him coaching and practising exclusivly at TH. Is was always loosehead, and maybe some practise at TH if the need arose, not exclusily TH.

However I like others here think that it may be a bit late to teach an old dog new tricks, if he was 27/28 then maybe try him exclusily at TH. For me McAllister as the younger man with more time to learn the trade is the better option to experiment with.

Pretty loose interpretation of the word 'exclusively' King! Ironically his entire first season for Ulster he was exclusively at tighthead. It's only when he moved to loosehead his career took off.

He started out as a tighthead for Ulster and Ireland in 2007/2008. Check if you don't believe me. He started almost every game during the 2007 RWC at tighthead. He was relegated to third choice tighthead by the return of internationals and Declan Fitzpatrick being a better tighthead scrummager but managed to get his place back for the end of the season. Tbh this is as much to do with Bryan Youngs poor form and Fitzpatricks fitness issues but even so; he didn't spend a single minute of that season at loosehead as far as I can tell.

See after that our coaches basically worked out he was better as a loosehead. So the experiment was originally moving him to loosehead, and he basically took to it like a duck to water. It worked so well we're actually forgetting he was a poor tighthead who was converted into a very good loosehead and still suggesting he is converted back into a mediocre tighthead at best.

If that makes sense to you, well, you're probably an Irish rugby fan.

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:Stag, it makes people annoyed to read it because Court at TH for Ulster has been such a disaster on a consistent basis for Ulster. Compared to being one of the best LHs in the Heineken Cup this year.

The positional shift has obviously not worked. I'm not very keen on the McAllister to TH idea for the same reasons (if it happens) but at least it may work. We know now Court to TH won't work.

I would question the two points above in bold. Court has always been considered a loosehead for Ulster. On occasion he gets shunted to tighthead. As this is an infrequent occurrence its success cannot be accurately judged.

We don't know if the positional shift has worked. It has never been properly tried.]

Like I said below, Tom Court has played an entire season of rugby for Ulster at tighthead and made such a big impression I seem to be the only person who actually remembers this! He was mediocre. Up against it a lot of the time and never, ever dominant.

Pretty much the level of a Loughney or a Bent.

Fair enough Notch, I was always more intrested in backs and not even 100% if Best was a loose or tight head prop. |Pretty sure it was tighthead, after I mentioned his retirment as reason for us needing NIQ tightheads.

Hopefully the McAllister to TH works for us,

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:Stag, it makes people annoyed to read it because Court at TH for Ulster has been such a disaster on a consistent basis for Ulster. Compared to being one of the best LHs in the Heineken Cup this year.

The positional shift has obviously not worked. I'm not very keen on the McAllister to TH idea for the same reasons (if it happens) but at least it may work. We know now Court to TH won't work.

I would question the two points above in bold. Court has always been considered a loosehead for Ulster. On occasion he gets shunted to tighthead. As this is an infrequent occurrence its success cannot be accurately judged.

We don't know if the positional shift has worked. It has never been properly tried.]

Like I said below, Tom Court has played an entire season of rugby for Ulster at tighthead and made such a big impression I seem to be the only person who actually remembers this! He was mediocre. Up against it a lot of the time and never, ever dominant.

Pretty much the level of a Loughney or a Bent.

Totally disagree with this Notch, as I remember it well! This was his second season and he was developing well as a TH by the end of it.
He was moved across because Ulster had more problems at loosehead with the waning Justin Fitzpatrick and the under-performing Young as the options. At TH Simon Best's career was prematurely finished at the RWC and Ulster managed to sign BJ Botha as his replacement, so the best combo was to have Court at 1 and Botha 3. If the circumstances had been different Court would have overtaken Best when he was ready at TH, but he can't be moved from LH at this stage of his career as he will never have the confidence of the fans on the RHS of the scrum.

Hagan going to the AP is good for him and Ireland - he will learn far faster there than as a bit part player with Leinster. Andress has never impressed me as a player and doesn't seem to impress too many of his coaches either - I'd far rather have Jerry Cronin back as a cover player.

Ulster will be looking for a better quality player anyway.

(BTW Geoff, this will be Afoa's third wain!)

Thanks didn't know that - the way he was talking suggested he was getting so excited about number 1.

What was he like with the first one !!!

Actually increases the chances of him going home I reckon.
Wife with a new baby and two other youngsters to be looked after as well and all the otherside of the world - cant see it.

I get the impression Afoa takes family life very seriously, as do I and as it should be, and it comes 1st, 2nd and 3rd in his priorities.

To be honest we need to face the probability that neither Afoa or Ferris will be with us next ear.

Struggling to remember Tom Court as a TH and what his technique was like but he now plays with a very high left shoulder.

This is great for a LH boring in (sorry putting pressure on the TH) but bad news for a TH.

It allows the hooker to get under you and with a decent LH give you a very hard time.
This is what happens to Court now when he plays TH.

Cant see him changing his technique radically now at 33, and a radical change is what would be required.

Anyway decision made - it ain't going to happen

Is this season Ulsters best chance for a Heineken Cup in the coming years?

red_stag wrote:Is this season Ulsters best chance for a Heineken Cup in the coming years?

Its a better chance than last year yes..... Afoa and Ferris (probably) going is a big blow but given the injuries we've had this year and the age profile of the side I'd say we have every chance of defending the title next season stag .

red_stag wrote:Is this season Ulsters best chance for another Heineken Cup in the coming years?

Fixed it for you,

could be red stag, given that there will maybe only be this and next year before the H-cup is no more.

red_stag wrote:Is this season Ulsters best chance for a Heineken Cup in the coming years?

I personally think that the young lads like Marshall/Jackson/Olding/Henderson/Gilroy could become equivalent in quality to our current NIQ batch. So I wouldn't bet against an Ulster team competing for years to come with fewer and fewer NIQs involved.

On the TH situation.... surely McCallister, Fitzpatrick and Macklin between them can do the business at TH?

Court can switch too and Black can come in at LH.

Is the prop situation as bad as made out or has this become a self fufilling proficy these days?

Ulster will have at TH next year - by my calculations

McAllister - (17 starts, all at LH) untried but has developed the bulk to do the business
Macklin - still needs to progress. Not been trusted (only 3 starts ever), problem is AIB is not pushing him
Fitzpatrick - (36 starts in 7 years at the club, not all of those would be at TH) argueably the best scrummaging Irishman in the business, trouble is 80% of the time he is injured and does nothing round the park.
Lutton - (0 starts) shown a lot of promise but completely untried (until Saturday perhaps). Like McAllister switching from LH
Caulfield - (0 starts) will only be 20 - surely too soon
ANother (maybe) - we hope for Afoa, we'd settle for Ben Franks, more likely to be a IQ journeyman playing in France or someone in the SH with an Irish granny.

Is that enough - questionable.
Numbers but everyone has a doubt about them for some reason or another

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster will have at TH next year - by my calculations

McAllister - (17 starts, all at LH) untried but has developed the bulk to do the business
Macklin - still needs to progress. Not been trusted (only 3 starts ever), problem is AIB is not pushing him
Fitzpatrick - (36 starts in 7 years at the club, not all of those would be at TH) argueably the best scrummaging Irishman in the business, trouble is 80% of the time he is injured and does nothing round the park.
Lutton - (0 starts) shown a lot of promise but completely untried (until Saturday perhaps). Like McAllister switching from LH
Caulfield - (0 starts) will only be 20 - surely too soon
ANother (maybe) - we hope for Afoa, we'd settle for Ben Franks, more likely to be a IQ journeyman playing in France or someone in the SH with an Irish granny.

Is that enough - questionable.
Numbers but everyone has a doubt about them for some reason or another

Well I mean how many do you need? I don't think there is any justification for a NIE TH with all those guys on the payroll. Surely all this shows is that NIEs don't do the job of bringing indiginous talent through to the degree that we've hoped? Maybe its time to just bite the bullet and trust these guys.

Personally I would rather Munster sent BJ Botha on his way and trusted in Stephen Archer, John Ryan and Alan Cotter to sink or swim.

Botha IMO isn't that all that good a player himself but manages to do a great job in developing loosheads. No surprise that Dave Kilcoyne has come so far learning from him.

The max I'd want Botha is another 12 months and then cut the cord. I'd be happy if we saved the big money that he is on.

You may be right but let me give you a perfectly logical/maybe likely scenarion.

McAllister just doesn't work our - goes back to LH,
Fitzpatrick is injured
Caulfield just isn't ready

Tha last two of those three are probables

That leaves us with Macklin and Lutton

There are numbers there but not a lot of quality.
I think Lutton showing some genuine promise and a journeyman signing is a minimum

Ok lads serious question. I'm off to Make Twickenham Home next week by supporting Ulster. I have my white shirt all ready and I know Stand Up for the Ulstermen. Anything else I need to know? Have you another song?

BTW lads I've made a call to Humphs. He agrees with me and will announce later that Tom Court will start against Leinster this weekend at Tight Head Prop.

Yeah I accept that Geoff but I mean we faced the same issue at fly half by letting IHumph go. If he'd have sunk we'd have been looking at O'Connor or shifting Pienaar.

Only difference if the IRFU forced our hand at 10.

I want Afoa to stay another season but I think if he goes early he shouldn't be replaced by an NIE.

I don't think we'll ever see the likes of Macklin develop unless they play matches.

10 isn't 3 though.

Wallace, Marshall, McKinney could all have stepped in that year.

Also at 3 there is a potential safety aspect which is not true at 10.

I agree lets bit the bullit but we need Lutton to suggest he has the potential and we probably need to sign an insurance policy ala Bent.

For me Lutton start this week otherwise it suggests we will be getting someone in who is probably NIQ

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster will have at TH next year - by my calculations

ANother (maybe) - we hope for Afoa, we'd settle for Ben Franks, more likely to be a IQ journeyman playing in France or someone in the SH with an Irish granny.

Anyone decent in France?