Ulster Squad 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a thread we can use to discuss next seasons squad, signings, departures etc.

Kicking off with the news James McKinney looks set to return. That, coupled with the news that Michael Heaney is set to for another two seasons after this year and the emergence of Stuart Olding, leaves us with great depth in the halfback positions.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/james-mckinney-set-for-ulster-return-1-4875769#.UTk2IS-FU4Q.twitter

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11252.php

So where else do we need to strengthen- tighthead?

I would not bet on either Williams or Wilson.
They may make it but they may not

I am also concerned that Muller's comback is always the match after this one - that is the 3rd delay we have been told about - makes me highly sceptical

Henderson out as well - looks bas too

Thing is we may well get Williams, Wilson, Muller and Henry back for Saracens but they will not be match sharpe.

finally - Good News!

Williams, Muller and Payne named in squad!

(Not that anyone will get to see how they get on...)

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11293.php

Clive - apparently it'll be on the BBC NI website.

really? happy days!


Forwards (14)

Neil McComb, Callum Black, John Afoa, Robbie Diack, Mike McComish, Dan Tuohy, Lewis Stevenson, Johann Muller, Nick Williams, Rob Herring, Niall Annett, Ricky Lutton, Tom Court, Nigel Brady

Backs (11)

Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Michael Allen, Paul Marshall, Peter Nelson, Michael Heaney, Paddy Jackson, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Andrew Trimble, Niall O’Connor


I assume Olding will be at 12 then??

clivemcl wrote:finally - Good News!

Williams, Muller and Payne named in squad!

(Not that anyone will get to see how they get on...)

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11293.php

Williams and Muller have to make the squad as there are 3 hookers named. Payne? who knows?

I see ESPN are reporting that Trimble has signed a new central contract?

Trimble got a central contract!

To be fair Trimble was the second form winger coming into the 6 nations, DK couldn't see it but the IRFU must have.

or maybe its about balancing central contracts, I said a bit prev about POM getting one a bit quickly, maybe Trimble keeping his is a bit like the same?

News about Trimby's contract with Ulster and IRFU:
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11296.php

clivemcl wrote:Trimble got a central contract!

Really strange one considering they just said that players who get one should be 'guaranteed' starters and he didn't play a single minute of the Six Nations

...but I've long since abandoned trying to understand the labyrinth reasoning of the IRFU.

It's an interesting decision that at once makes the IRFU and Declan Kidney look utterly incompetent. High fives to all concerned

Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Basically Central Contracts have nothing to do with the importance of the player to the Irish team.

They are merely a vehicle for horse trading between Provinces to get Dublin to pay some of their wage bill.

This nonsense needs to be sorted out - there has to be a better way than this

geoff998rugby wrote:Basically Central Contracts have nothing to do with the importance of the player to the Irish team.

They are merely a vehicle for horse trading between Provinces to get Dublin to pay some of their wage bill.

This nonsense needs to be sorted out - there has to be a better way than this

+ 100000

Don't begrudge Trimbs a contract but this is a farce.

geoff998rugby wrote:Basically Central Contracts have nothing to do with the importance of the player to the Irish team. They are merely a vehicle for horse trading between Provinces to get Dublin to pay some of their wage bill. This nonsense needs to be sorted out - there has to be a better way than this

It works out well for the IRFU though. Gilroy just signed a new 3 year contract before he became an international and his value would have shot up. If he got the central contract, it would have cost Ireland and Ulster extra money while Andrew Trimble would still be looking for at least what he has on his central contract for Ulster.

Jerry Flannery described central contracts best I think - basically its a free player for the province they are contracted to.

To be honest it seams the IRFU want to keep the central contracts fairly evenly spreat between the 3 provinces, so noone picks up to big an advantage over the others.

Connacht will be pushing for a few central contracts themselves shortly, meaning that some of the big 3 will be (as Flannery puts it) a free player, and Connacht will be gaining one.

I wonder will it ever be 5 contracts per province, and the province decides which 5 the IRFU pay for?

Why not give the Provinces more money and let them decide how to spend it?

geoff998rugby wrote:Why not give the Provinces more money and let them decide how to spend it?

Because they might want to spend it all on expensive imports!

Its an incentive for the provinces to develop young players (who will likely stay in the provinces anyway) to international standard. They have to earn the contract, not just be given it.

Simple a limit on money spent on imports - problem solved.

All Provinces are being pushed towards only 3 NIQ for 2014-15 anyway so that will become less of an issue.

geoff998rugby wrote:Why not give the Provinces more money and let them decide how to spend it?

Well that would make too much sense....

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Sincerely doubt that is the reasoning. Horse trading/politics more likely.

geoff998rugby wrote:Simple a limit on money spent on imports - problem solved.

All Provinces are being pushed towards only 3 NIQ for 2014-15 anyway so that will become less of an issue.

Doing it this way is an incentive though. Take Peter O'Mahony for instance - he was fastracked by Munster (captaining Munster in his first season several times) and now has a central contract. Thats a bonus for Munster (& Ireland). Compare him to Ruddock, already capped who has gone backwards a bit at Leinster. Ruddock will be good enough for Leinster's requirements - will he be good enough for Ireland's though.

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

I'm perturbed by Earl's inclusion, does that count?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

I'm perturbed by Earl's inclusion, does that count?

Play nice now lads.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

I'm perturbed by Earl's inclusion, does that count?

No. Because you are on your own on that one.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Simple a limit on money spent on imports - problem solved.

All Provinces are being pushed towards only 3 NIQ for 2014-15 anyway so that will become less of an issue.

Doing it this way is an incentive though. Take Peter O'Mahony for instance - he was fastracked by Munster (captaining Munster in his first season several times) and now has a central contract. Thats a bonus for Munster (& Ireland). Compare him to Ruddock, already capped who has gone backwards a bit at Leinster. Ruddock will be good enough for Leinster's requirements - will he be good enough for Ireland's though.

Having as good a team as possible with a strick limit of NIQ players and money paid to them is incentive enough.
I do not see any logic in being satisfied with less than the best or how Central Contracts make that more likely.
As has been established Central Contracts seem to be more to do with horse trading than retaining the key Irish players in Ireland.

As to the two players you mention - Ruddock is not good enough for Leinster. He is not good enough to make any of the 3 senior Provinces backrows even if we ignore the NIQ. If a POM like player came along Leinster would replace Ruddock with him in a flash Central contract or no Central contract

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

I'm perturbed by Earl's inclusion, does that count?

No. Because you are on your own on that one.

No hes not

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

I'm perturbed by Earl's inclusion, does that count?

No. Because you are on your own on that one.

No hes not

+1

Just confirmed BOD will miss the Ulster game.

To be honest if Central Contracts were truly for key players only and we ignored BOD (pending retirement), Sexton (gone to France) as well as POC and Ferris (doubts re injuries) the only Central Contracts would be:

Kearney
Bowe
Murray
Heaslip
SOB
Ryan
Ross
Best
Healy

Kingshu wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Somebody suggested either here or elsewhere, that perhaps its evidence that the IRFU are as pertubed by Trimbles exclusion as some of us are. Perhaps the IRFU fully expect the next coach to use him a lot more...

Are people perturbed at Trimbles exclusion (bearing in mind the competition in the back 3 for Ireland)? I think there are more people surprised that he got a central contract.

I'm perturbed by Earl's inclusion, does that count?

No. Because you are on your own on that one.

No hes not

+1

+1

Infact almost all Ireland fans I speak to feel the same way!!!

You're not going to turn this thread into another endless Earls debate? Just let it go.

Two interesting rumours on the supporters thread.

McCormish may be going - that would not surprise me but it is not a noted reliable source.

However the other is a reliable source and very very interesting .
Afoa to leave and to be repaced by one of the Franks brothers - the one who plays TH presumably.
That does, kind of, fit with something I heard myself.
Basically Afoa want to go but is not going to leave us in the lurch and he is brokering some deal to get in a replacement.

Franks could do 2 years and then return for the WC

Our 3 NIQ for 2014-15 - Williams, Pienaer and Franks perhaps

I really hope thats true Geoff, one of the Franks would be an almost like for like replacement. You would think Afoa couldn't be replaced he's been so good for us but one of the Franks would be as close as you could get.

Surely the IRFU aren't going to allow us to sign a 3rd NIE TH in succession?

I would be sad to see Afoa going. On franks, i take it this would be the crusaders one? I can never remember which one is which

rodders wrote:Surely the IRFU aren't going to allow us to sign a 3rd NIE TH in succession?

I dunno.....look at the number of foreign centres Munster have got away with signing.

Well for next year at least it makes no real difference as Afoa has a contract. Anything with Franks would be short term - 2 years max.

Also Botha may well be allowed to sign for Munster again.

They are pushing hard on the 3 NIQ for 2014-15 but realize they need to meet the provinces halfway.

In most positions they are comfortable blocking players but TH is difference.
I think a recognition that other than an average Ross, and that is all he is, no Irish qualified, Irish based TH is close to being good enough.
We are in a mess and until players come through we need foreigners.

I suspect Munster and Ulster are being pushed hard to come up with an action plan on how they can survive without a top NIQ TH.

With Ulster it will be around a development plan for McAllister and Macklin and a training plan for Fitzpatrick and longer term seeing if the likes of Caulfield are going to make it. I also suspect that scouts are out in the SH looking for people with Irish grannies

I'd doubt Owen Franks would leave NZ, hes young & AB's first choice TH.

Money - and it may only be for 1 year.

Back in NZ in plenty of times for the World Cup.

The source is solid very solid

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd doubt Owen Franks would leave NZ, hes young & AB's first choice TH.

Big Bro can play both sides though. Hasn't he gone to the Canes this year for gametime

geoff998rugby wrote:Money - and it may only be for 1 year.

Back in NZ in plenty of times for the World Cup.

The source is solid very solid

Darn Geoff why don't you drop Nick Williams right in it? .....

I could see Ben Franks perhaps, he's on the fringes of AB's. A better LH than TH

I just can't see why Franks would come to the Rabo(no disrespect), he could earn much more in France/Japan as a world class TH.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I could see Ben Franks perhaps, he's on the fringes of AB's. A better LH than TH

I just can't see why Franks would come to the Rabo(no disrespect), he could earn much more in France/Japan as a world class TH.

Ulster are paying the likes of Pienaar and Afoa very similar amounts to what they would get in France or Japan. From what I have heard Pienaar is on around £400,000 at Ulster, I'm sure Geoff would have a better idea though.

Afoa is supposedly on £400'000 as well. If Afoa is getting enough to play at Ulster I don't see that Franks would be any different.

Afoa was very much a fringe AB, Franks is a nailed starter.

NZ don't often let their top draw players leave, especially at their peak.

I just can't see it happening.

It has nothing to do with what NZ wants, its about players deciding they want a big pay cheque, hence why even Dan Carter accepted a big move to Europe.

I would be very surprised if Franks turned down a deal that was worth £400,000 or more. When you start heading into those sums of money it doesn't matter what their status in NZ is.

We'll see, my money is on Franks not joining Ulster.

You may well be right as its just a rumour at the minute, but I don't see that being a nailed on starter will have much baring on it when he won't miss a WC. In fact there is often a raft of top All Blacks that leave New Zealand after a WC to make some cash so it would make sense. Geoff is usually bang on when it comes to these things as well.