v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Group 4

The final group of the last 16 see football, cricket, athletics and golf battling it out for your votes and the final 2 spots in the last 8

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Diego Maradonna- Football- Championed by Hero

"One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?
We already have an answer.
In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.
English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the ""Hand of God"" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.
Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.
Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: ""It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail.""
This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the ""Butcher of Bilbao"". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.
Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.
"

Garfield Sobers- Cricket- Championed byguildfordbat

"Before anyone exclaims ''Not another cricketer!'', let me begin with a few words from Harold Pinter, Nobel Prize winning playwright, dramatist and actor. Pinter said, ''I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn'too bad either.''

Now I don't set myself the near impossible task of convincing you of that but I do hope to show you that Garry Sobers was a great cricketing all rounder and sportsman who deserves your vote today. The cricket writer Lawrence Booth described him as ''a master of all trades and jack of none''. In my view, Sobers certainly merits at the least a place at the business end of this contest. Assuming he gets that far, one of his rivals will undoubtedly be Sir Donad Bradman. I make no claim either way today as to whom was the greatest cricketer - that hopefully will be a challenge to come that both will relish. Bradman himself referred to Sobers as ''the five in one cricketer''.

The Don's description referred to Sobers' prowess in batting, fielding and bowling in three distinct styles. This was further explained by the much respected writer, commentator and former Australian captain Richie Benaud: ''Sobers was a brilliant batsman, splendid fielder, particularly close to the wicket, and a bowler of extraordinary skill, whether bowling with the new ball, providing left-arm spin or over-the-wrist spin.'' Benaud added that Sobers was the greatest all-round cricketer the world has seen.''

Garry Sobers was born in Barbados in July 1936. There was perhaps a hint then that there was to be something unusual about him; at birth he had an extra finger on each hand, subsequently removed in early childhood. When Sobers was only five, his father died at sea in WWII when his ship was torpedoed by a U-boat. Despite this tragedy and little money, Sobers generally enjoyed his formative years and excelled in ball sports - football, basketball and especially cricket. At the age of just sixteen he was selected to play for Barbados against the touring India team as a spin bowler and took seven match wickets.

Just one year later Sobers made his Test debut at seventeen. It was the beginning of a Test career that was to last twenty years and bring him 8,032 runs, 235 wickets and 109 catches from 93 matches. With so much Test cricket played today, those stats do not reflect how far ahead of his peers Sobers was. To some extent, I will try and show that. However, it needs to be noted that personal averages were never of concern to Sobers. In the words of the late Tony Greig, ''In my experience, every single thing he did, he did in the interests of the game .... he never thought about averages in any aspect of his game.''

I do not have the time and you do not have the patience for me to list all Sobers' cricketing accomplishments, so just a few to give a flavour of his all round abilities:

* In 1958, he not only scored his maiden Test century against Pakistan in Kingston but went on to amass an undefeated 365 in an innings that lasted over ten hours. It broke the world record Test score of 364 set by England's Len Hutton in 1938. At 21 years and 216 days, he is the youngest player to break the individual scoring record in Tests and remains the youngest triple-centurion. When Sobers' highest individual Test score was finally broken thirty-six years later by Brian Lara, Sobers was at the ground in Antingua to witnesss it and was one of the first to congratulate him.

* Sobers scored another twenty-five centuries in his Test career. Three of these came in the Test series in England in 1966 where he enjoyed spectacular success and was dubbed ''King Cricket''. As the late Christopher Martin Jenkins confirmed, ''he dominated the '66 series''. In the five Tests Sobers scored 722 runs at an average in excess of 103. For me, his greatest batting display that summer was an uncharacteristic innings at Manchester where he reined in his natural attacking instincts to rescue his side from a perilous situation. It has been said on this thread that a true GOAT for all his artistry needs at times to ''guts it out''; this was when Sobers did just that. In their second innings, the West Indies were in desperate trouble at 95-5, leading by just 9 runs. With Sobers at the crease was his young and nervous cousin David Holford in only his second Test. After Holford had played and missed at his first two balls, Sobers went down the pitch and said words to him along the lines of, ''Relax, it's just a game. Now think of how we used to play back home ...''. From there, the tide started to turn. The partnership between Sobers and Holford remained unbroken with the West Indies being able to eventually declare and snatch a draw from the proverbial jaws of defeat. Sobers scored an undefeated 163. Whilst he clearly deserves credit for that, he deserves even greater praise for having coaxed and encouraged his partner to an undefeated maiden Test century of 105 not out. It was the only Test century of Holford's career and would not have possible without Sobers' calming presence.

* Due to the apartheid regime, South Africa were banned from Test cricket at the start of the 1970s. In place of the proposed tour to their country of South Africa in '71/'72, Australia played a Rest of the World side captained by Sobers. In the Third (unofficial) Test at Melbourne, Sobers played an innings of 254 which was described by Bradman as ''probably the greatest exhibition of batting ever seen in Australia''.

* Sobers will probably be best remembered for being the first batsman to hit six sixes in a over in first class cricket. This was achieved in August 1968 when he was captaining Nottinghamshire against Glamorgan in Swansea. The unfortunate bowler was Malcolm Nash. Typically of Sobers when interviewed by cricket writer Grahame Lloyd about the day, he did not criticise Nash's bowling nor talk of his own exploits but spoke of what was really important to him - the game: ''Malcolm tried to do the right thing - he was trying to get me out.'' This tally of 36 runs in an over broke a record of 34 runs that had stood for fifty-seven years and its impact at the time cannot be overestimated. I was on holiday then in the Scilly Isles. In this pre internet age, we had to rely far more on newpaper reports and I still recall one cricket fixated holidaymaker at our guest house going early to the quay to wait for the boat that brought the papers. Ok, the guy was probably a bit of a nutter but it was nonetheless definitely a national talking point. This world record was equalled in 1985 by Ravi Shastri playing for Bombay. However, in the words of Grahame Lloyd, ''It would be 17 years before another batsman would be similarly blessed by the cricketing gods but no subsequent hitting of six sixes in an over would ever be able to match the first one.''

* Sobers' Test average was a mighty impressive 57.78. As a bowler, his stats are not so stunning although in the words of Cricinfo ''he was more than handy with his ability to bowl various styles''. Whilst never taking 10 wickets in a Test match, he took 5 wickets in an innings on six occasions. Particular bowling highlights were at Headingley in 1966 when he returned figures of 5-41 and 3-39 to take West Indies to victory over England by an innings and at the Gabba two years later where his orthodox left-arm spin gave him a second innings haul of 6-73 and the West Indies victory over Australia by 125 runs.

* During his peak as a Test match bowler between January 1961 and December 1968, Sobers took 125 wickets in 33 Tests at an average just under 28. His overall Test bowling average was a shade above 34, still almost 24 less than his batting average. That is bordering statistical freakery. The only past or present player I'm aware of who is on a par is Jacques Kallis of South Africa. For all his strengths of dependability and determination, I don't place Kallis on such a high pedestal as Sobers. For me, Kallis has less of the natural match winning talent and entertaining flair that characterised so much of Sobers' game.

* Far more than Kallis and any other cricketers, Sobers was able to deliver his excellence with bat and ball in the same series. Scoring 300 runs and taking 20 wickets in a Test series is a very considerable achievement. It has only been achieved fifteen times in the entire history of Test cricket. Sobers managed it on three of those occasions, twice against England and once against India. The Australian all rounder Keith Miller did it twice but no one else has achieved it more than once. Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Richard Hadlee and Shaun Pollock were among those who did it once each. The mighty Imran Khan never managed it and the same still applies to Jacques Kallis.

* As a close to the wicket fielder, Sobers made fielding an artform. For several years, Lance Gibbs was the world's leading Test match wicket taker. A fair number of those wickets were attributable to catches by Sobers. Gibbs readily acknowledged the part played by Sobers, ''His anticipation was incredible.'' In the words, somewhat over ridden with awe, of former West Indies Test batsman Charlie Davis, ''Garry could catch a blur you know. He used to be close at leg slip, at the back pocket of the batsmen, and catch blurs. Once a batsman flicked hard off Lance and Sobers just plucks his hand out and takes it so easily. The batsman couldn't believe it ... He could catch a bur. He is not normal. He is definitely not normal.''

* ''As a captain, Sobers was a mixed bag'' - Cricinfo. I think that is definitely true although I wouldn't condem him too heavily for this. Following initial captaincy success, he was roundly criticised for a declaration against England at Port-of-Spain which resulted in defeat for the West Indies. Whilst Sobers' declaration was overly generous to the away team, he was keen to keep the match alive and believed that gave his own side the best chance of victory. The former West Indies paceman Michael Holding has suggested that Sobers was too respectful towards the abilities of others in his team, ''Perhaps Sir Garfield Sobers thought others within the team had the ability of Sir Garfield Sobers.'' This is rather echoed by Charlie Davis, ''Garry was too modest. He didn't know how special he was. He expected us to bat like him. And catch like him. He thought all of us were like him you know.''

Anyway, that's more than enough from me. Just to finish off with a few comments from others who know much more.

''His stroke range was phenomenal. He had an array of shots and incredible energy. '' - Alan Davidson, Australia Test seam bowler.

''The best ever. You were in awe of him.'' - Cive Lloyd, West Indies batsman and captain.

''The complete all rounder''- Ian Botham, England all rounder and captain.

''The greatest born cricketer probably of them all.'' - Christopher Marin Jenkins, cricket writer.

''Whatever the level, he played it as it was just a game. He was relaxed in everything he did, whatever the situation.'' - Tony Cozier, West Indian cricket broadcaster and writer.

''Forget about all the other things, a great batsman and a great human being.'' - Ian Chappell, Australia batsman and captain.

''A genius. He could do everything. The complete cricketer.'' - Sunil Gavaskar, India captain and opening batsman.

A final comment from Tony Cozier which I consider particularly apt as we seek the ultimate GOAT: ''I have a firm belief that people are put here to do certain things. Like Pele to play football and Ali to box, Sobers was put here to play cricket and he played it magnificently.''
"

Jesse Owens- Track & Field- Championed by 88chris05

"If you subtract the era in which he competed in, the tensions the world over which defined that era and the fact that he carried the hopes of a whole race on his shoulders, and focus purely on Jesse Owens' achievements as a track and field athlete in purely numbers and medals, then he's automatically a sporting legend. However, when you combine all of those elements together, along with those medals, world records and achievements, then he becomes nothing short of a sporting monolith.

Along with Joe Louis, Owens helped to lead what many observers now call the ""quiet revolution."" In fact, a number of similarities can be drawn between Owens and the 'Brown Bomber'; both were born in 1914, both were born in Alabama and both played a critical role in proving that blacks could not only compete - and win - amongst the best athletes in the world, but they could also do so with dignity.

For Owens, it wasn't about black versus white - he just wanted to win, the same as any sportsman. And win he did. Even 77 years on, his haul of four gold medals from four events at the 1936 Olympics, with Hitler watching from the stands, stands as one of the key moments in sport, a remarkable mix of God-given talent and an ability to cope with huge pressure which, quite rightly, is still spoken of in reverent terms in 2013.

And yet, the signs of greatness had been there before those fantastic four days in Berlin. In compete contrast, it was tucked away in front of only a few spectators that Owens announced himself as one of the sporting phenomenons of the twentieth century, in Michigan, 1935. Forget any half of football you've ever seen, because it was on this afternoon, at the Big Ten Athletics Championships, that Owens produced the most remarkable forty-five minute period ever seen on the sporting stage.

Representing Ohio University, Owens got off to a flyer at the May 25 meet, winning the 100 yard dash in an (equal) world record of 9.4 seconds at 3.15 pm. Ten minutes later, he set a world record outright in the long jump, chalking up a distance of 26 foot 8.25 inches (that's 8 metres and 13 centimetres in our currency!). To put that particular record in to context, it was not broken for another twenty-five years, outstanding in track and field terms, and would still have been good enough to take the bronze medal in the long jump at the London 2012 Olympics. At 3.45 pm he took part in 220 yard dash, winning in a world record of 20.3 seconds, and then at 4.00 pm set a new mark of 22.6 seconds in the 220 yard low hurdles - and, what with the transition between metric and imperial records, Owens had also broken the world records for the shorter 200m sprint and 200m hurdles events in doing so.

Sports historians, then, will always argue whether it was three or five world records which Owens set in the space of forty-five minutes on that spring day of 1935 but, whichever side of the line you fall on, you can't see it as anything other than one of the great sporting moments in history.

If 1935 had been Owens' year of arrival, then 1936 was his signature one. The Berlin Olympics came at a time when American blacks had little to be excited about; lynchings of Afro-Americans were commonplace and often met with not so much as a bat of an eyelid. In many of the USA's (and, in fact, the world's) leading sports, such as track and field, boxing, baseball and golf, opportunities for black competitors were rare, and respect / acknowledgement for their talents even rarer than that. Even their music, as sports writer Harry Mullan once penned, had been ""bastardized by white commercial interests.""

Usually, the chance to compete against the best athletes the world had to offer in 1936 at the Olympic Games would have been a welcome relief for a young Afro-American such as Owens. However, the '36 Games, as much as they were a sports meet, were also an exercise in propaganda, a chance for Hitler to showcase to the watching world that his idea of a superior, Aryan race was quickly becoming an inescapable reality.

Owens wasn't just representing himself, and nor was he representing the USA. He was representing, and carrying the hopes of, a whole race. For every man or woman who'd suffered at the hands of discrimination, for every German Jew who was slowly having their rights to work and rights to property systematically stripped by the Nazi regime, an Owens victory would be a cause for celebration, a moral win which they could all lay some claim to.

It would probably be impossible to understand the pressures Owens must have been feeling on August 3, 1936, when he stepped out in to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin to compete in the heats of the 100m sprint. If he'd had any doubts that the crowd of ove 100,000 spectators, as well as most of the officials, were against him before the race, they will have quicly disappeared immediately afterwards; in that heat, Owens beat his own world record but the German timekeepers refused to ratify it, claiming the time had been achieved with a following wind, despite the stadium flags suggesting nothing of the sort.

However, this cheap piece of skullduggery proved only a temporary setback on Owens' road to ultimate glory. Later that same night, he won the final of the event - and with it his first gold medal - in a time of 10.3 seconds, and this time the officials did acknowledge that the world record had been equalled. The following day, he showed his hand in the 200m by beating the world record in the heats, and took his second gold medal of the Games in the long jump with a leap of 26 feet and 5 inches (8.05 metres) which would stand as an Olympic record until 1960.

With Luz Long being the pre-Games favourite to win that particular event, but now merely a vanquished foe, the world was by now realising that Owens, in a wild turn of events, was becoming the face of Berlin 1936 when, in fact, it had been the organizer's hope that black athletes would be seen as the big joke of them. On August 5, the rest of the field were powerless to prevent Owens winning gold in the 200m in another world record of 20.7 seconds, and he put the final seal on his greatness when helping the American 4x100m relay team win gold - yes, in another world record - on August 6.

In four days, Owens had played an ever-lasting role in bringing about a change of how black athletes were viewed, and it says much about his global impact that, despite Germany eventually going on to top the medals table at the Games, Berlin 1936 is still to this day remembered as Jesse Owens' Olympics, the Games in which Hitler's ideologies were put to rest in emphatic style. Even Owens, looking back, commented, ""For a while at least, I really was the most famous and most talked about man in the world.""

The outbreak of World War II, as it did to so many others, called time on Owens' athletics career, which begs the question - has any other athlete in history done so much to challenge people's perceptions and also set such high standards from a sporting perspective in such a small amount of time?

I can't think of many other athletes from any era or any sport who command my respect the way Jesse Owens does - and what leaves me even more impressed with him is the way he conducted himself as a man. It would have been easy and, let's be frank, pretty understandable for him to have been a surly character, a man who fought back against the discrimination and hardships he suffered with an acid tongue and a confrontational, off-putting demeanour, ala Jack Johnson or a young Muhammad Ali. But Owens conducted himself impeccably, maintaining that sports and politics shouldn't mix; before his death, he even did his best to convince President Jimmy Carter to reverse his decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics of Moscow for that very reason.

No, Owens didn't see himself as a black athlete, he was just an athlete who wanted to win. That he carried the hopes of so many with him, and also that he became an icon for a generation that followed, was merely incidental to him, it seems - but that does nothing at all to diminish how wonderfully well he coped with these pressures, and what a fantastic role model he continues to be, even more than three decades after his death. The word 'champion' fits this man perfectly.

And whenever I think of Owens, I'll always remember one quote which summed up his single-mindedness and dignity; when asked what he thought of Hitler refusing to shake his hand and congratulate him after his four gold medals, Owens simply said, ""Well, I didn't come here to shake hands anyway."""

Tiger Woods- Golf- Championed by Adam D

"So far these GOAT debates have been fascinating reading. What sports are sports? How does a sportsman shine if they are part of a team? How can someone who is not athletically fit be considered a ""great"" sportsman? How can someone be considered the GOAT if they are not even the best in their sport?

Well all of these arguments could be levelled at Mr Woods to a certain extent, however, I will prove why all of these points in isolation do not matter to Tiger.

Tiger Woods is not just the greatest golfer of his generation, he is the greatest of all time. Whats that I hear you say? Jack Niklaus has won more?
Well for a start, he hasnt. Niklaus HAS won more Majors but not tournaments.

In fact, the person with the most tournament wins is Sam Snead who dominated from 1936 to 1965, clocking up 7 major wins. But I doubt he is going to grace this list anytime soon.

Lets get back to Niklaus vs Woods because lets face it, thats the golfing GOAT debate that will spring up. Now I like Niklaus and I like Woods, but which is better? There is only one way to find out....actually, its a matter of opinion and for me the reason why Woods outshines the Niklaus era is down to the talent pool around them.

Let me talk about that for a second. In Niklaus' era, we had the big names and historical superstars of the sport. In Woods era, we have Major winners such as Keegan Bradley and Zach Johnson. Whats my point you may ask as this is surely a selling point for Jack?

My point is that in the 60,70 and 80s, golf was dominated by a group of great players in a smaller pool. And that was down to the social class aspect of the sport. Fewer people played, and skill was the biggest factor in winning a tournament. Today, everyone is welcomed onto the many, many more courses around the world. And due to big hitting taking precedent over course management, the field has become much more even and full of depth.

Tigers dominance in a more scientific era of golf is that much more impressive. And its also the reason why he should be voted above the likes of Federer and Phil Taylor and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Tiger doesnt have to beat a single opponent on each day. He has won these tournaments by beating EVERY player over 4 days.

This is not a case of playing better than this rounds opponent but a case of playing better than every person in the competition. That is why his achievements should be considered above the other individual sports on this list.

So what has Tiger achieved?

At age 2, he appeared on TV putting against Bob Hope! At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes over the Cypress Navy course. Before turning seven, Tiger won the Under Age 10 section of the Drive, Pitch, and Putt competition, held at the Navy Golf Course in Cypress, California.

In 1984 at the age of eight, he won the 9–10 boys' event, the youngest age group available, at the Junior World Golf Championships. He first broke 80 at age eight. He went on to win the Junior World Championships six times, including four consecutive wins from 1988 to 1991.

And THEN he went to college!

By the time he turned Pro in 1996, he had already amassed dozens of junior titles.

I am going to sum up his career in a very brief manner as the stats talk for themselves.

Woods has won 74 official PGA Tour events including 14 majors. He is 14–1 when going into the final round of a major with at least a share of the lead. He has been heralded as ""the greatest closer in history"" by multiple golf experts. He owns the lowest career scoring average and the most career earnings of any player in PGA Tour history.

He has spent the most consecutive and cumulative weeks atop the world rankings. He is one of five players (along with Gene Sarazen,Ben Hogan, Gary Player, and Jack Nicklaus) to have won all four professional major championships in his career, known as the Career Grand Slam, and was the youngest to do so. Woods is the only player to have won all four professional major championships in a row, accomplishing the feat in the 2000–2001 seasons.


On top of this he has another 38 European Tour wins and other worldwide tournaments.

Simply put, no one in the modern era has dominated the sport like Tiger. He has been so dominant that he won the US Open in 2008 on one leg (He was recovering from Knee surgery before the tournament and had to have major knee surgery afterwards).

Outside of his sporting achievements it has to be noted that Tiger Woods has transcended just playing the game. He has a successful video game franchise named after him - when was the last time anyone played Roger Federers Tennis 2013 or Jerry Rice American Football 2013?

The final thing I want to touch upon is his infidelity. Some may discount him for this very reason but that is ludicrous. However, we must remember that Tiger hasnt commited a crime. He hasnt taken drugs to cheat at his sport. He hasnt dodged a military draft or served jail time for serious crimes. He cheated on his wife (albeit on numerous occasions) which might make him less of a man but not a sporting great.

Tiger deserves to be the v2 GOAT.
"

Still Sobers for me. The all round cricketing GOAT. Twenty years of consummate skill, success and honest entertainment.

''I have a firm belief that people are put here to do certain things. Like Pele to play football and Ali to box, Sobers was put here to play cricket and he played it magnificently.'' - Tony Cozier.

Tricky group. Don't like going against the fellas / gals I've written articles for but I've given this one to Woods. Can't make him anything other than the second finest golfer of all time and I don't think that Maradona, Sobers or Owens can be guaranteed of that in their fields.

Tiger for me.

This seems a relatively weak group when compared to the Federer group yesterday. Woods would probably get my vote if he wasnt such a tw@ so from the other 3 im gonna go for Sobers cos quite frankly, the guy was an awesome cricketer. guildfordbat happy now?

voted for Tiger as I think he stands out the best for me.

9 chins

and quite a decent group for him.

Maradona is the only one that comes close.. but not in the top 5 footballers off all time therefore cant be considered against chins who is close to level pegging or out stripping Nicklaus depending on your stance on eras, majors, wgc's. tournies, dominance etc

I wont ask any more questions after this as we're not here to discuss the top five footballers, but who would you have in a top 5 that Maradona doesnt make?

Difficult group this. Four sportsmen who, possibly, are not quite the G.O.A.Ts of their own sports.
Owens probably transcened his sport in terms of historical impact more than the others, but that was due as much to circumstance as to his own skills, substantial as they were. He wouldn't be counted as the greatest athlete of all time IMO, although he'd be there or there abouts.
Maradona would be there or there abouts as a contender for G.O.A.T. in terms of football, but do his misdemeanours rule him out?
Woods had a great 10 years or so, but surely Nicklaus is still golf's G.O.A.T?
Sobers was crickets greatest all-rounder, but can he compete with Bradman for the title of cricket's greatest player?
Tricky.
However, after a lot of thought, I think I'm going to have to plump for Sir Garfield St. Aubrun Sobers, possibly crickets greatest ever, and a man without the 'baggage' associated with either Maradona or Woods. He just holds off Owens due to the period over which they both enjoyed success.

I will add 5 from a more modern era.. I could name plenty from the past as well.

But just from recent years.

zidane, roanldo, ronaldo, messi, inesta, xavi

The last two are criminally underrated

Kallis is pretty close, if not equal to Sir Garfield, so for me, he cannot be considered.

Tiger wins this round.

mystiroakey wrote:I will add 5 from a more modern era.. I could name plenty from the past as well.

But just from recent years.

zidane, roanldo, ronaldo, messi, inesta, xavi

The last two are criminally underrated

Think you're being harsh on Maradona there, Oakey.

Posters on here talk about contenders transcending there respective sports a lot.

In this case He mixed football with religion. brought the game in to disrepute.. In fact the worlds media in a way excused Maradona's cheating so much that it actually became COOL!!

That's how badly his actions affected a sport..

We could still be seeing the knock on affects from that game today.

Stuff Maradona in a sack and forget about him- he is nt worthy of debate in regards to an ultimate GOAT.


Yes he is the only sportsman i dislike. However I don't hate him. I hate how he was put on such a pedestal! And how he intrinsically affected football with his actions

No just no Mysti

Zidane maybe but the rest simply no, Xavi and Iniesta I feel have benefitted from stricter refereeing in recent times, put them back into the 90's and I don't think they fare as well having to face Seedorf, Davids, Scholes, Keane, Vieira, Nedved, Zidane and the host of other world class dominating midfielders.

Oakey, Woods is far worse for me, because as horrible as Maradona could be, you could never accuse him of being boring. Nine Chins is perhaps the most boring, dull, dreary and least articulate sportsman in the world today.
His very presence sucks the joy out of everything he is in, tournaments, interviews, press conferences, Ryder Cup, he's a cancer.

As I said Ghost. Those two are criminally underrated

super_realist wrote:Oakey, Woods is far worse for me, because as horrible as Maradona could be, you could never accuse him of being boring. Nine Chins is perhaps the most boring, dull, dreary and least articulate sportsman in the world today.
His very presence sucks the joy out of everything he is in, tournaments, interviews, press conferences, Ryder Cup, he's a cancer.

He speaks very highly of you though.

I knew someone who was his driver during an Open at St.Andrews, said he was a repulsive person.

super_realist wrote:His very presence sucks the joy out of everything .

You do realise the irony of this statement don't you?

super_realist wrote:I knew someone who was his driver during an Open at St.Andrews, said he was a repulsive person.

Great Golfer, mind!

They are in comparison to Messi but the level of protection spanish players get now makes there job a lot easier, put them up against a Keane, Vieira, Davids or Makelele who's allowed to tackle and I think they lose a lot.

The likes of Zidane, Scholes, Seedorf and Nedved made their own space with intelligence whereas players now are afforded it because you can't touch them without it being a foul.

Stella wrote:

super_realist wrote:I knew someone who was his driver during an Open at St.Andrews, said he was a repulsive person.

Great Golfer, mind!

Well, he's an effective golfer who has won a great deal, but he's not a golfer that putting aside my dislike for him I enjoy watching, like an American soldier he's gung ho and rash.

super_realist wrote:I knew someone who was his driver during an Open at St.Andrews, said he was a repulsive person.

What, a human golf club? Sounds painful!

Sobers

The way the media intrude into Woods' life I'm not surprised if he isnt the most charismatic of people with those he doesnt trust.

I still cant believe he had to apologise to the public for cheating on his wife. Thats his sh*t to deal with, its not news and its none of anyones business

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:The way the media intrude into Woods' life I'm not surprised if he isnt the most charismatic of people with those he doesnt trust.

I still cant believe he had to apologise to the public for cheating on his wife. Thats his sh*t to deal with, its not news and its none of anyones business

He didn't HAVE to apologise at all, no one made him. For some reason he chose to via a cringingly embarassing stage managed "confession" and it only confirmed him as the idiot I've always thought him to be. If I was him I'd probably find it hard to keep it in my trousers too though. I've never condemned him for his morality though and I don't think anyone should.

The world has been told Pele is the GOAT of football. Mainly by Pele himself. I've seen for myself and imo Maradonna is the GOAT based on ability so he gets my vote here.

chris,
I think Buddha told him to apologize, apparently they're sponsoring him as well as nike.

Went for Sobers, is getting tricky now because the random nature of the draw means voting for some people tends not to sit right. Don’t particularly want to vote for Woods as I believe Nicklaus to be the better golfer and thus more deserving of a place in the final 8, as he didn’t make it can’t bring myself to vote for Woods. Also the way his form as tailed off subsequent to his troubles is a little worrying, particularly as he shows little sign of arresting the slump.

Sobers is in my opinion the finest all rounder the sport has ever seen. Is rare that an all rounder would get in the team for both of his disciplines individually Sobers most assuredly would.

Hmm, weak group without an obvious GOAT in their sport.

I cant believe people are having a pop at woods for being a disgusting person up against maradona.

He is a virtual saint compared to that man..


I have no qualms about what a person is like in there home life.. I wouldn't bring up Maradona's lusty life(which by the way is 100 times worse than woods) I just bring up his cheating and how his legacy has had a detrimental affect on the game.

Has to be Maradona, the greatest footballer of all time.

+1. I am disturbed that Maradona has lasted this long, and disappointed that Owens is getting so few votes.

Has anyone actually read Owens' write up? 3 (or arguably 5) world records in 45 minutes - one of which lasted a quarter of a century and would have been long enough to earn a medal at the 2012 Olympics - nearly 80 years later. And that was before the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

On achievement alone, I'd say that Owens stands out in this group. Add to that that he was, by all accounts, a decent human being and I'd say it gives him a clear advantage.

Impact outside their sport more important than "being the best ever in their sport" for me, so I went for Owens. You can't measure the best within a sport except in exception circumstances (Bradman... and even then people will disagree) and the achievements of every sportsperson, to borrow a phrase from Sir Isaac, are largely from standing on the shoulders of giants. If not for Owens, would we ever have had Johnson or Bolt? Without

This is going to be the clash of the whole comp i feel.

It is very personal!! and the votes are close to being level at this point

Well, obviously behind the notions of sponsors who were desperate to PR the whole Woods thing, it just saddens me that some people would feel they deserve an apology. As is life, Maradona was nuts but it doesnt put me off him particularly, he screwed with his own health not mine.

Many golfers can get away with what they want- but when you are high profile in the states, You have to apease the religious crazies.

Tiger sinned- he must repent type of attitude they have there

Again, greatest impact or greatest sportsman. Owens wasnt clearly the best sprinter in the us, but his rival was crocked for the 36 Olympics.

Woods above Nicklaus? Sobers above bradman? Maradona above pele. On the grounds it's the biggest global sport and maradona is the best player I've ever seen I'll plump for him.

Woods

second greatest in his sport just shades maradona as second greatest in his.

Off pitch/course misdemeanours. Woods penchant for waitresses out of wedlock is less distasteful/ruinous than Maradona's penchant for chan.

mystiroakey wrote:

Many golfers can get away with what they want- but when you are high profile in the states, You have to apease the religious crazies.

Tiger sinned- he must repent type of attitude they have there

If I'd been in Woods "horrible corrective" shoes I'd have never appeased the bible thumpers, in fact I'd have stuck the middle finger up and told them to mind their own business.

Much as I despise Woods, he shouldn't have to answer to anyone but his wife and kids for his indiscretions.

I seem to have had a negative impact on Owens' position since I championed him.

I'll shut up.

... Better start championing the others quick

I am thankful that we haven't forced our stars to apologies..

Remember JT and his team mates wifey!

Faldo wasn't a saint- he cheated on his wife.

Rooney loves a brass.

Its there lifes.

let them crack on.

When it affects the sports on field that we love they can apologies

We've certainly got plenty scumbag sports "stars" over here Oakey, no doubt about that.

It's amazing how a bit of money and media profile though has the vacuous bints frothing though. The likes of John Terry make Nine Chins look like an Adonis.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Impact outside their sport more important than "being the best ever in their sport" for me, so I went for Owens. You can't measure the best within a sport except in exception circumstances (Bradman... and even then people will disagree) and the achievements of every sportsperson, to borrow a phrase from Sir Isaac, are largely from standing on the shoulders of giants. If not for Owens, would we ever have had Johnson or Bolt? Without

Transcending the sport or impact outside of the sport is a side issue for me.

Some people make an impact purely because of circumstances which allow for this. Take Owens for example. He simply ran his races and jumped his jumps. The rest of the legend was created because he happened to be at the right place at the right time. He had no say in any of that. It was destiny if you like. Should that then make him the greatest sportsman of all time or elevate him above someone else who may have had greater sporting achievements but had no comparable vehicle by which to transcend their sport to the degree that Owens was able to, simply due to a twist of fate?

If transcendence is so important then popular figures thorughout history, for whatever reason, be it beneficial or through notoriety, would be the GOATs of humanity. Isn't it more logical to weigh and consider more worthy the one uniting factor in all of this; sport and thus sport achievement?



emancipator

emancipator wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Impact outside their sport more important than "being the best ever in their sport" for me, so I went for Owens. You can't measure the best within a sport except in exception circumstances (Bradman... and even then people will disagree) and the achievements of every sportsperson, to borrow a phrase from Sir Isaac, are largely from standing on the shoulders of giants. If not for Owens, would we ever have had Johnson or Bolt? Without

Transcending the sport or impact outside of the sport is a side issue for me.

Some people make an impact purely because of circumstances which allow for this. Take Owens for example. He simply ran his races and jumped his jumps. The rest of the legend was created because he happened to be at the right place at the right time. He had no say in any of that. It was destiny if you like. Should that then make him the greatest sportsman of all time or elevate him above someone else who may have had greater sporting achievements but had no comparable vehicle by which to transcend their sport to the degree that Owens was able to, simply due to a twist of fate?

If transcendence is so important then popular figures thorughout history, for whatever reason, be it beneficial or through notoriety, would be the GOATs of humanity. Isn't it more logical to weigh and consider more worthy the one uniting factor in all of this; sport and thus sport achievement?



emancipator

The whole point of sport and sport entertainment is the effect it has on other people and how it changes the lives of individuals and societies. Without this it is meaningless and IMO has no merit whatsoever

People don't get into playing sport in order to entertain people or change their lives, so is it meaningless to them?