Is Tavoris Cloud The Most Stupid Boxer Ever?

If you are world class and you've been boxing for a large portion of your life and you've become a world champion and you've matured as a fighter and are now 31 years of age, you have a 2 and a half month training camp to study a fighter and work out how to beat him, you must really be incredibly stupid to get your tactics so wrong that you get completely done over by a 48 year old man, right?

I don't want to take ANYTHING away from B-Hop what he achieved last night was staggering, to show the guile he did and boxing ability to old man his opponent is nothing short of incredibe, he truly is an ATG.

However, if you're Cloud and you hold so many advantages, in being stronger and WAAAAY WAYY fresher and having way more stamina than your opponent, WHY, oh bloody WHY would you give Hopkins so many dead spots to recover, the few times he decided to really throw caution to the wind and go to the body was when Hopkins was most uncomfortable, but the first time he actually did that was in the 8th round!!!! His gameplan must have been not to allow Hopkins to dictate pace, surely, but he barely ever seemed as though he wanted to push the pace hard. I was sat there thinking, do you really want this Cloud? Then I just started thinking, he probably does, he's simply just too stupid to get it.

You've just taken everything away from Hopkins

Na Hopkins is that clever. He hits hard, moves well and gives opponents too much time to think. Stop being a ho and congratulate BHOP

azania wrote:You've just taken everything away from Hopkins

Well, I've not because the performance he gave is still mesmerising, like I said to do that at 48 is incredible, but it's the simple fact that Cloud was so stupid, it's a fight he really shouldn't have lost, he's 48!!

Not complaining, won a few bob.

His age is irrelevant. I haven't seen the fight but read it was a comfortable win. Give the winner the credit without the 'but.....'.

Same could be said about Pascal and Pavlik, Hopkins craft enables him to make fighters fight his gameplan so through him being so ring smart he makes tem look like they have chosen the wrong gameplan but Hopkins has forced them to fight that way

The guy is a genius.

His age isn't irrelevant to the fight, it's a big statistic that should have been a deciding factor in the fight. Cloud should have sold out and pushed the pace because Hoppo has no real stamina anymore, due to his age. Again, what B-Hop has done is marvelous and he was pretty exciting last night (in comparison to normal) at the same time, he shouldn't be losing to someone he has so many physical advantages over.

AlexHuckerby wrote:His age isn't irrelevant to the fight, it's a big statistic that should have been a deciding factor in the fight. Cloud should have sold out and pushed the pace because Hoppo has no real stamina anymore, due to his age. Again, what B-Hop has done is marvelous and he was pretty exciting last night (in comparison to normal) at the same time, he shouldn't be losing to someone he has so many physical advantages over.

Cloud threw more punches. Perhaps when he tried to push the pace he got countered to hell and thus wasn't overly keen in committing himself to big swarming attacks?

He can have all the physical advantages he wants (within reason of course in terms of size/weight) but when the other guy is feinting then countering him to death with the old thing known as "skill" he doesn't need the lightening fast reactions - Bhop can still pull the trigger enough to get his shots off, he's just very reliant on making the openings to get his shots off.

For me it was a masterclass.

He's an active fighter. His age doesn't come into it as soon as the bell sounds. Its when you take his age into consideration that you come unstuck.

Gee wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:His age isn't irrelevant to the fight, it's a big statistic that should have been a deciding factor in the fight. Cloud should have sold out and pushed the pace because Hoppo has no real stamina anymore, due to his age. Again, what B-Hop has done is marvelous and he was pretty exciting last night (in comparison to normal) at the same time, he shouldn't be losing to someone he has so many physical advantages over.

Cloud threw more punches. Perhaps when he tried to push the pace he got countered to hell and thus wasn't overly keen in committing himself to big swarming attacks?

He can have all the physical advantages he wants (within reason of course in terms of size/weight) but when the other guy is feinting then countering him to death with the old thing known as "skill" he doesn't need the lightening fast reactions - Bhop can still pull the trigger enough to get his shots off, he's just very reliant on making the openings to get his shots off.

For me it was a masterclass.

Same Gee, and it seems like some people think I'm attacking B-Hop for some reason, it was a masterclass (As I have stated about 3 million times) But Cloud could have done WAAAY The only times he pushed the pace and came in at him he actually did something.

Gee wrote:

He can have all the physical advantages he wants (within reason of course in terms of size/weight)

That's what I love about this board; even though it's obvious what Gee was getting at, he felt it absolutely essential, due to pedantic posters, to include whats in the bracket. I do the same.

i agree with you alex, a 48 year old should not be able to win a younger man over 12, i was hoping cloud was going to sell out and go for it. i know bhop is a master at what he does, but when you losing you have to take risks, and it never happened.

Perhaps he wasn't allowed or able to.

eddyfightfan wrote:i agree with you alex, a 48 year old should not be able to win a younger man over 12, i was hoping cloud was going to sell out and go for it. i know bhop is a master at what he does, but when you losing you have to take risks, and it never happened.

Slave Lotto? Dont worry alex is still there for you. A ok or good fighter who is young usually loses to the great older fighter who still has some of his old self left. Factor in Hopkins spartan and healthy lifestyle, lack of being hit, lack of throwing punches and reasonable fight rate then it becomes possible and even likely.

azania wrote:Perhaps he wasn't allowed or able to.

maybe, and ive only seen highlights but from what i saw he didn't even try.

Cloud has correct form and a good physique so it's easy to see why people would overate him.

However, you only have to watch his last two fights to realise he's not that good.

He's a poor judge of distance. He seems incapable of judging his OWN range (his punches often fall short) never mind that of an opponent...... that's not good enough to beat Bernard (a true master of range determination).

TheMackemMawler wrote:Cloud has correct form and a good physique so it's easy to see why people would overate him.

However, you only have to watch his last two fights to realise he's not that good.

He's a poor judge of distance. He seems incapable of judging his OWN range (his punches often fall short) never mind that of an opponent...... that's not good enough to beat Bernard (a true master of range determination).

Yes i agree. i watched the fight live and Hopkins was so good at judging distance not only when he was attacking but being out of range when the opponent tried to attack. Hopkins made Cloud look silly because everytime cloud went for a big punch hopkins would move out of the way and cloud would end up punching air.

Also I think that it is very simplistic of the creator of this thread to look at hopkins age and determine that cloud was stupid for not exploiting it. Hopkins controlled that fight and made the tempo what it was becuse of his brilliance. Yes Cloud could have thrown more punches but everytime he did Hopkins would counter and then move out of the way. The best example was late in the fight when hopkins was leaning on the ropes a lot to rest and cloud would come in throwing punches and hopkins would just block them all and then land a sweet counter.

I really do hope Hopkins retires now because after that performance and at his age he would go down as an ATG and it would be an amazing victory for him to end his career on.

I haven't seen the fight Victor so thanks for the description.

b-hop has the potential to school cleverley and shumenov or whatever he's called.. the wba champ, then retire

Despite Cloud being the IBF champ, he wasn't the top light heavy in the division, Dawson was and he's beaten Hopkins. So if there was one champ per division like there was in the days of Archie Moore, then all Hopkins would have achieved is the beating of another contender. Would we all be calling him a genius then?

Of course 48 yr old world level fighters dont come around too often.

Atila wrote:Despite Cloud being the IBF champ, he wasn't the top light heavy in the division, Dawson was and he's beaten Hopkins. So if there was one champ per division like there was in the days of Archie Moore, then all Hopkins would have achieved is the beating of another contender. Would we all be calling him a genius then?

The plaudits regarding B-Hop's ring smarts were not born out of one fight against just "another contender" (Cloud). They rose from multiple examples of subtle brilliance throughout a very long and excellent career.

I'd have thought B-hop being referred to as genius as "quite normal" (though it's an overused term, especially in sport).

DO NOT TAKE FROM B-HOP THE ALMIGHTY.

Hopkins has made fighters immeasurably more technically skilled than Cloud look sloppy. Truth be told, I could see this result coming a mile away. Fighters who can hit but possess limited technical ability (and Cloud's is VERY limited) are tailor-made for B-Hop.

Credit to the old timer nonetheless, continues to do what he does best and hasn't folded and become a shadow of his best as many younger than him have.

Not sure stupidity had anything to do with it personally, Alex - Bernard was just too good for Cloud, and that's pretty much the be all and end all. If we're all honest about it, Cloud's chances of winning this fight rested solely on whether or not Hopkins had declined and aged sufficiently as he approaches his sixth decade of life, rather than any great ability on Cloud's part.

Anyway, I have to admit that Hopkins surprised me a little bit last night and I was very impressed with him, which I didn't necessarily think I would be even in the event of him winning.

For three rounds I was thinking "Oh no, it's going to be another Hopkins stinker." Single shots followed by holding, spoiling, pawing etc. The fourth was a real turning point as Hopkins suddenly decided (and this is increasingly rare these days!) that he was going to make the fight a decent spectacle and he started letting both hands go with a bit more freedom, and even showed those old inside skills which we've not seen for an age as he opted to fight his way out of the close-in exchanges rather than spoil and let the referee break them.

I actually think that Cloud was as surprised as anyone that Bernard, in rounds four to eight at least (it got a little scrappy again late on, but nothing too bad) was letting combinations of fours and fives to in place of the ones and twos which basically everyone had predicted. Cloud's predictable on the attack and as Hopkins stood off him we always knew which one of them would run out of patience and swat first, and it almost invariably was Cloud. He doesn't throw combinations much himself so it's child's play for a sharp operator like Hopkins to counter, and this time he was really emphasising the point by being much more active than he's been in his past few fights.

It was a much-improved Hopkins from the Dawson bouts (a lot more energy and intent) and when that final bell went you could see by Cloud's face that he knew he'd just been taught a lesson or two!

117-111 for me and, as I said, it's the manner of Hopkins' performance which impressed me more than the fact that he beat a man seventeen years his junior. Scrappy at the start and admittedly steady at the end, but he completely took over for that middle section and it was great to watch.

He was in pretty good form in the post-fight press conference, too!

I dont really think Cloud was stupid. He just lacked the ability to beat Hopkins even at Hopkins advanced age.

Anyone got a link for this?

Here it is on YT, Ghosty - might not be long before HBO or Mr King get it taken off, so don't muck about!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2Ty1FkhJVk

Are you telling me that, standing there and not working and not attempting to push Hopkins back, going to Hopkins' 48 year old body and learning to cut the ring off was smart?

No Im saying I dont think he had the ability to beat Hopkins.

Genius, enough said.

There's always 'ifs' and 'buts' after the event. The point is that Hopkins fought his fight and didn't allow Cloud to do anything. Instead of blaming Cloud, lets marvel at this freak of nature.

On another point I really enjoyed Wards commentary too, very concise and picked up on the little things that Hopkins did very well, the pair obviously have the utmost respect for eachother.

Hopkins defeats another limited paper champ, gloats about his age, shamelessly and publicly ducks Andre Ward but again gets a pass because of his age!

Nothing to see here!!!!!

Super D Boon wrote:Hopkins defeats another limited paper champ, gloats about his age, shamelessly and publicly ducks Andre Ward but again gets a pass because of his age!

Nothing to see here!!!!!

He did say in the interview after the fight that he would fight anyone and actually said Ward's name as a possible opponent.

The fact he is 48 is fairly significant, he's fought all the big boys at the weight and you want to dismiss his achievements because there's one man he won't face.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The fact he is 48 is fairly significant, he's fought all the big boys at the weight and you want to dismiss his achievements because there's one man he won't face.

Ward confirmed after the fight that BHop said that there's no amount of money that would get him to fight Ward! If that's not a duck I don't know what is. Look, he's trading on being 48, not saying it's not significant but he's deliberately taking on limited sluggers with a view to show them up and when he does he's like "Hey I'm 46/48 how good is that!"

Kelly Pavlik - Hey I'm 44!
Jean Claude Pascal - Hey I'm 46!
Tavoris Cloud - Hey I'm 48!

All limited champs all shown up to be limited. Just saying Hopkins is avoiding anyone who can match him skill wise.

Super D Boon wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The fact he is 48 is fairly significant, he's fought all the big boys at the weight and you want to dismiss his achievements because there's one man he won't face.

Ward confirmed after the fight that BHop said that there's no amount of money that would get him to fight Ward! If that's not a duck I don't know what is. Look, he's trading on being 48, not saying it's not significant but he's deliberately taking on limited sluggers with a view to show them up and when he does he's like "Hey I'm 46/48 how good is that!"

Kelly Pavlik - Hey I'm 44!
Jean Claude Pascal - Hey I'm 46!
Tavoris Cloud - Hey I'm 48!

All limited champs all shown up to be limited. Just saying Hopkins is avoiding anyone who can match him skill wise.

And Calzaghe and Dawson. He possibly has kept off Wards radar. But Wards had one fight since the S6 against an opponent that had beaten Hopkins. They are not even in the same division. Pascal, Dawson and Cloud were probably the three best opponents he could have fought at LH.

Super D Boon wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The fact he is 48 is fairly significant, he's fought all the big boys at the weight and you want to dismiss his achievements because there's one man he won't face.

Ward confirmed after the fight that BHop said that there's no amount of money that would get him to fight Ward! If that's not a duck I don't know what is. Look, he's trading on being 48, not saying it's not significant but he's deliberately taking on limited sluggers with a view to show them up and when he does he's like "Hey I'm 46/48 how good is that!"

Kelly Pavlik - Hey I'm 44!
Jean Claude Pascal - Hey I'm 46!
Tavoris Cloud - Hey I'm 48!

All limited champs all shown up to be limited. Just saying Hopkins is avoiding anyone who can match him skill wise.

He just fought a guy that was 17 years younger than him who was a world champion and who was unbeaten in 24 fights wiith 19 Ko's. Credit has to go to Hopkins for this victory. He was the unnderdog before the fight yet he won it so easily.

Boon, quite simply he's fought the best in the division, it's not his fault that he can still show up the younger guys.

He's a pro boxer. His age is irrelevant. What he's done is amazing but lets not allow hus age to get used as a reason to elevate him to god like status. Judge him as an active fighter.

azania wrote:He's a pro boxer. His age is irrelevant. What he's done is amazing but lets not allow hus age to get used as a reason to elevate him to god like status. Judge him as an active fighter.

His age is not irrelevant. He is approaching 50 and he managed to EASILY defeat the number 2 ranked guy in his division. The reason why his age is important is because of natural physical decline. No matter how much you train when you approach 50 your body will become weaker, your reactions slower and your stamina will decrease. Hopkins has defied science by staying at the top of his division and it is amazing that he has adapted tactics that suit his body perfectly.

Jut look at all the other top boxers who stayed in the game too long and look at how their career have gone downhill, then look at hopkins and at the age of 48 his career and performances are getting better and better.

He's a pro boxer. Age is irrelevant.

azania wrote:He's a pro boxer. Age is irrelevant.

Such a simplistic view.

Boon, you do seem a bit over-eager to downplay Hopkins' win, I must say!

I don't really take exception to Hopkins dropping his age in to the conversation over and over again. I mean come on, the guy is doing something that basically nobody else has done in the past one hundred years, Archie Moore aside (bit of debate about what Archie's real date of birth was, mind you!). Yes, right now he's a titlist as opposed to the division's bonafide champion, but that's still remarkable at his age.

If Usain Bolt is still winning Olympic bronze medals at the age of 38 (absolutely ancient for a sprinter, as 48 is to a boxer) at the 2024 Olympics, wouldn't you simply applaud the feat in itself rather than keep pointing out that it wasn't gold? If Roger Federer is still ranked inside the world's top three tennis players by the time he's, say, 35 (again, practically an antique in line with his sport) then wouldn't that be remarkable in its own right, even if he wasn't number one?

There have been a lot of limited, merely solid world title holders in Cloud's mould, I agree. What there hasn't been a lot of is fighters approaching fifty (and seventeen years older than said title holder) soundly outboxing them. It seems to be a bit fashionable now to say that age is irrelevant and that winning while so old is an overrated feat.

For the simple fact that so very, very few have ever managed it at all, let alone on Hopkins' level, I can't agree. To say that age is irrelevant is nonsense as far as I'm concerned, hence how unique Hopkins' longevity is. There's a reason you seldom see a boxer the wrong side of 35 in the prime of their life or churning out some of their very best performances, and that's because of Father Time. Most people can't hold him off for that long once he comes a' knocking, so when someone does (and does so to an almost unprecedented degree) then I think it's a little ridiculous not to give the fighter in question extra commendation for it.

Got to say I am with Chris on this one. Is too easy to say age is irrelevant, although I don’t really understand this as anyone who has crossed over into middle age will be well aware how much harder recovery becomes or how each day seems to bring some fresh ache and pain. Similarly easy to downplay Cloud as not all that, however I look at what Bhop is doing similarly to Jones winning a title at heavy.

When he did that we were told Ruiz was rubbish and it was only a case of waiting until there was a weak champion and picking him off. Like then I find myself asking if what Hopkins has achieved is that easy why does it happen with such infrequency? Any sportsman who is involved in a physical sport who is still near the top of his game anywhere near 40 is truly remarkable, anyone is can make the claim nigh on ten years past that deserves every plaudit thrown his way.

You just have to look at the fighters than Hopkins is winning these belts off. They aren't exactly technically the best, they all seem to have the same traits....Palvik, Pascal & now Cloud....

Look what happened when Hopkins met Calzaghe and Dawson....

Styles make fights and Hopkins is lucky to be around the same weight class(es) as such one dimenisional fighters that just so happen to hold belts.

I seen he called out Ward after the fight.....seriously, if he can't figure Dawson out, what is Ward going to do on him.

I would go after Cleverly (not on UK soil) if I was Hopkins as judging on how Cleverly is one dimensional it would be an easy nights work once again.

Think the thing people have to answer themselves is, are you really surprised Hopkins beat Cloud?? I wasn't. Cloud shouldn't have even had the belt in the first place, but thats a different matter.

Making a mockery of the sport.............

Tennis, Athletics, gymnastics, Golf, football, cricket, American football, Basketball..........all pension off players in the thirties because they can't hack it and because the sports are rich in kids coming through.....The lifeblood!!

In Boxing we have 35-40 year olds whether it be a light heavy...Heavy..supermiddle or jr midd all slapping young butt around...

and people are applauding it............I think it's very sad....

Shows the lack of talent in the sport..........