Italys 6 nations improvement, is it down to being in the Pro 12?

Before entry to the Pro 12 in 2010/11, Italy had failed to make an impact in the Six Nations Championship tournament since joining 10 years prev. This was largely been blamed on the fact their best players do not have a competitive enough domestic tournament or are forced to play abroad. The fact that the Six Nations decider in 2009 between Wales and Ireland featured 42 Celtic League players out of 44 in their squads supported this notion
Most Italian players play in France's Top 14. In order to ensure the new teams deliver players for the national side the Federazione Italiana Rugby have put incentives in place for the new teams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aironi

Aironi and then Zebre haven't been great but Treviso have come on leaps and bounds and supply the bulk of the Italian squad, but is the Italian national team improvment really down to playing more players from the 2 teams in the Pro 12?

Or is it other factors that happened at around the same time?

Treviso will soon challenge for a play off place - watch it happen

The short answer is yes. Good club rugby teams result in good international rugby teams.

I am delighted for Treviso. Shows Edinburgh what can be achieved when a teams plays as a collective and practices things like scrums and lineouts.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The short answer is yes. Good club rugby teams result in good international rugby teams.

I am delighted for Treviso. Shows Edinburgh what can be achieved when a teams plays as a collective and practices things like scrums and lineouts.

Or vice versa perhaps?

Maybe the promise of a chance to take a seat the top table is the spur required to encourage Unions to develop their clubs. The glass ceiling keeps the T2/3 teams down permanently in the nether regions.

Don't forget that one Italian club side has yet to win a game.

Yes.

When they entered it was predicted their fitness would improve, and regularly playing better opposition would also drive up their standards. That's exactly what has happened.

If a large chunk of the Italian team were playing in the Italian league now rather than the Rabo they would not have been within a score of England at the weekend.

I think when you look at Treviso then you have to say yes, it has helped a lot. Rather than playing against the best players in Europe 6 times a year in the HC and getting smashed, Italian players are now exposed to playing against top players weekly. It’s not really fair to compare Zebre with Treviso as it take time for clubs/regions to grow organically (RGC1404 are a good example of how to do this) and Treviso have money where as I believe that Zebre/Aironi are backed by the FIR. I'd like to see where Zebre are in 5 years when they've had the same amount of time to develop as Treviso. Another strong nation in Europe helps to truly spread Rugby. We should really start planning down the line to see which country is the next practical option for target development to become a Tier 1 Nation.

Zebre were not far off winning a few games this year - failed to close out about 4 they should have won.

I think winning somewhere between 4 and 6 next year is the most likely spread bet

Since they have been in the Rabo (and half the squad are in Treviso) three things have been affected.

1. They are now able to play for 80 mins where as before it was at most 60mins.
This is down to higher level each week for the players in order to compete. Also their combinations have to be at a higher level rather then in the Super10 as to be a star does not require the same focus for the whole match so they now can't turn off during a game.

2. They are beating people (well half the team) on a regular basis.
The Celts hold no fears for the players as they beat them every week. This has helped them to believe more in themselves and not be in awed by the players

3. They have alot of young players coming through that can be given a higher level quirker.
Before they had to be good to get an oversea's contract. Now they just need to show are good enough in the squad to get in the team.

4. Strenght in depth
They now are able to bring through players like the rest of the countries by using squads rather then only the first 15. Italy now has a bench which they didn't have before.

Not wanting to be disrespectful, but I think that the fact this is probably the worst 6 Nations on record has made Italy look to have improved. Ireland and France have seemed to have gone backwards at a rate of knots this year, the Scottish have had a decent performance against England and Italy, but looked lucky versus Ireland and average against Wales. And Wales have been dire, with no real attack, but are somehow still in the hunt of the championship. So as such I am not too sure if it is fair to say Italy have improved as such, as opposed to the rest have just been poop. I guess this weekend will clear that up maybe.

However there is no arguing that Treviso are definately growing since being in the Rabo, and to be fair I don't think it will be too long before they are in the play-off chase going into the last few rounds. And in all fairness to Zebre they are no walk overs, they have picked up a few losing bonus points , and will IMO be targetting the Dragons and Edinburgh (unless they improve dramatically) next season.

What improvement?

HammerofThunor wrote:What improvement?

Sunday's improvement, Hammer...

Thunor - this weekend could see Italy finish in 3rd place. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility. Italy must fancy themselves to beat Ireland, especially in Rome. So that will put them onto 4 points, which will mean a minimum of 4th place (best placing ever). Then it will all come down to France v Scotland. If, and I would assume it is likely, France want to save some face, tehy are going to have to really make an effort to put Scotland to the sword. If the score line is big enough in Frances favour that could push Italy up to 3rd, which must be classed as an improvement (albeit in the worst 6Ns to date).

Argentina seems to have improved exponentially nationally compared with Italy.

How does that support the OP?

People who live under glass ceilings are well advised not to throw stones.

greytiger wrote:Argentina seems to have improved exponentially nationally compared with Italy.

How does that support the OP?

People who live under glass ceilings are well advised not to throw stones.

Argentina have improved so much due to having Argentinian players playing in the Rabo. There have been Argentinians playing in Ireland, Wales and Scotland (and Italy although those ones call themselves Italian ).

Anyhow lets drop this glass ceiling nonesence, after all their is not way to get promoted above the Jeff, so technically that is a glass ceiling.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - this weekend could see Italy finish in 3rd place. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility. Italy must fancy themselves to beat Ireland, especially in Rome. So that will put them onto 4 points, which will mean a minimum of 4th place (best placing ever). Then it will all come down to France v Scotland. If, and I would assume it is likely, France want to save some face, tehy are going to have to really make an effort to put Scotland to the sword. If the score line is big enough in Frances favour that could push Italy up to 3rd, which must be classed as an improvement (albeit in the worst 6Ns to date).

Which would emphasise the rationale for a multi-divisional Euro Nations competition.

There has been big improvements in Italy because of being in the pro 12.

Argentina have better players playing all over the world so you can't compare.

greytiger wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - this weekend could see Italy finish in 3rd place. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility. Italy must fancy themselves to beat Ireland, especially in Rome. So that will put them onto 4 points, which will mean a minimum of 4th place (best placing ever). Then it will all come down to France v Scotland. If, and I would assume it is likely, France want to save some face, tehy are going to have to really make an effort to put Scotland to the sword. If the score line is big enough in Frances favour that could push Italy up to 3rd, which must be classed as an improvement (albeit in the worst 6Ns to date).

Which would emphasise the rationale for a multi-divisional Euro Nations competition.

Actually it doesn't but there you go

greytiger wrote:Argentina seems to have improved exponentially nationally compared with Italy.

How does that support the OP?

People who live under glass ceilings are well advised not to throw stones.

Have they really, grey? I thought Argentina always provided a hefty challenge of sorts for European sides...not exactly a major shift in abilities going on around there.

Plus, they now play against a shower of sides from Southern Hemisphere Land, don't they? I'm told that's a tough club to be part of...it's bound to harden and quicken them up...just like Rabo, with three HC winners, two of them multiple winners, does for Italian sides.

It can only be good for the majority of Italian players to play together in a league week in week out and long term this is bound to cause an improvement in quality. I think the increase in popularity of rugby in Italy will help too.

But to the original point, have Italy really looked that great this 6 nations? They played a bit of rugby against France and only just won that despite France seemingly not playing at all. In the other games they have been the usual plucky losers, good in patches but still lacking that bit of quality.

So I guess what I'm saying is that while playing in the rabo will help Italy I don't think there has been a sudden jump in the quality of their national team in the last year or so.

The good thing about the Italian team is that they now have two players per position so before when the bench was emptied they dropped now they don't.

They also have alot of young players coming through. And I think that the two teams in the Rabo help in that.

Also when you take out the two breakaway tries for scotland when has it looked like men against boys when Italy were playing. That is why they have improved. Every year they have had one or two games that they did ok. This year they have had four.

The Agries have always been up there and have been touring for years compared to Italy. You could say that Italy only came to the top table when the six nations started where as the Agries even though they may not have been in a 1st rate competion where regularly playing the top sides.

They marginly worse then any team this year.

Also we need to look at their games v Aus and Nz. They showed up well against NZ and were unluck against Aus so surely this year is the year they can no longer be taken for granted in every game.

No one is saying they are world beats but they would be considered to be a challange by all teams not just the PIs as before

greytiger wrote:Argentina seems to have improved exponentially nationally compared with Italy.

How does that support the OP?

People who live under glass ceilings are well advised not to throw stones.

That maybe raises the Question "how good could Argentina become if it had its own teams, playing at a high club level"

Players playing together more often, but more important is that players won't just be released for min time under IRB rules, they would get more and longer training camps before tournaments, and team bonding sessions, work on more developed tatics, and spend more time as a unit, which will only improve them further, coaches can view players easier, all these things can only make them better.

Imagine how much better the national team would be, if instead of the min time required by the IRB release window, they got the time to prepare on a level with all the other top nations, who give themselves a week or two extra to prepare.

If they had thier own teams, with most of the national players in them, they could prepare to the same level as other top nations.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - this weekend could see Italy finish in 3rd place. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility. Italy must fancy themselves to beat Ireland, especially in Rome. So that will put them onto 4 points, which will mean a minimum of 4th place (best placing ever). Then it will all come down to France v Scotland. If, and I would assume it is likely, France want to save some face, tehy are going to have to really make an effort to put Scotland to the sword. If the score line is big enough in Frances favour that could push Italy up to 3rd, which must be classed as an improvement (albeit in the worst 6Ns to date).

Didn't they come 4th in 2007? With an away win. Something they haven't done since. They pushed England hard but they were doing that before they entered the PRO12. Wasn't it 2010 that they pushed both England and Ireland hard? I think we just won by 4 points that year. Fair play they beat France this year (but who hasn't?) but they also beat them in 2011. The same year they got thrashed by England who they did well against this time round. I just don't see any significant improvement this season or last that hasn't happened in the seasons before they joined the PRO12. There should be an improvement, players focused in a couple of teams, those teams having the funding to bring in their top players, etc. It makes sense. But it's way too early to saying anything about any real improvement yet.

It's certainly played a part in how Italy are currently playing, though I believe the bigger factor has been the effect of the national Ivan Francescato academy established in 2006, which is providing a steady flow of well prepared talent and whose graduates are now forming the expanding core of the team.

I think it's unfair to say Italy had failed to make an impact in the Six Nations prior to 2011, they've had one win this year, something they also achieved in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2008 & 2010, with two wins in 2007 (their best finish to date, 4th, avoiding the wooden spoon as in 2003 & 2004, but also managing to finish above both Scotland and Wales).

HammerofThunor wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - this weekend could see Italy finish in 3rd place. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility. Italy must fancy themselves to beat Ireland, especially in Rome. So that will put them onto 4 points, which will mean a minimum of 4th place (best placing ever). Then it will all come down to France v Scotland. If, and I would assume it is likely, France want to save some face, tehy are going to have to really make an effort to put Scotland to the sword. If the score line is big enough in Frances favour that could push Italy up to 3rd, which must be classed as an improvement (albeit in the worst 6Ns to date).

Didn't they come 4th in 2007? With an away win. Something they haven't done since. They pushed England hard but they were doing that before they entered the PRO12. Wasn't it 2010 that they pushed both England and Ireland hard? I think we just won by 4 points that year. Fair play they beat France this year (but who hasn't?) but they also beat them in 2011. The same year they got thrashed by England who they did well against this time round. I just don't see any significant improvement this season or last that hasn't happened in the seasons before they joined the PRO12. There should be an improvement, players focused in a couple of teams, those teams having the funding to bring in their top players, etc. It makes sense. But it's way too early to saying anything about any real improvement yet.

This is the new look England we're talking about, Hammer.... not the constant experimental (trying to recover old glories) sides that have been England since the WC winning side. They pushed new shiny, squeaky clean and fast as lightening England this year, the one on their way to a (whisper it) Grand Slam.

Are they world beaters?...nope, not even in Rabo have they achieved consistent levels to really worry top sides in that - yet. But getting there is the point being made. Playing a more expansive game is the point being made. Gaining some consistency of performance from one game to another is the point being made. Looking a lot less like Wooden Spoon grandees every year is the point being made.
Nobody is saying they're on their way to a WC in 2015...although they might very well ruin some prospects for more favoured sides in that too.

monwy wrote:It's certainly played a part in how Italy are currently playing, though I believe the bigger factor has been the effect of the national Ivan Francescato academy established in 2006, which is providing a steady flow of well prepared talent and whose graduates are now forming the expanding core of the team.

I think it's unfair to say Italy had failed to make an impact in the Six Nations prior to 2011, they've had one win this year, something they also achieved in 2000, 2003, 2004, 2008 & 2010, with two wins in 2007 (their best finish to date, 4th, avoiding the wooden spoon as in 2003 & 2004, but also managing to finish above both Scotland and Wales).

A well functioning and structured national academy system is intrinsic to the fortunes of a national side, it's certainly what has helped start to kick England out of a serious lull.

Simple inclusion in the 6N is nothing to be sniffed at in terms of bringing the Italian side on as well, the side is seeing the benefits of over a decade of annual international rugby at a higher level, with the younger players doing the same in the U20 & U21 competition. They've also been given more regular summer tour fixtures against the top SH sides since the mid 2000s.

It's been a steady improvement, wins over Scotland and France in Rome seem to be becoming regular... Hopefully a win over Ireland to add to that this weekend . I'd say it's more down to Italy's exposure to 6 Nations rugby. Treviso are good because they have a lot of Italian internationals. The Italian franchises should be improving Italian rugby at the club levels. Do they have a youth academy?