Federer and Djokovic - The Cold War?

This relates to something discussed on the Rafa Not Backing Down thread but it's off-topic, so I'll give it its own thread.

Interesting blog about the Roger-Novak relationship:

http://tennis-column.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/the-relationship-between-federer-and.html

I do find the dynamic between the two players very interesting. It seems to have been noticeably warmer the last 18 months or so but there's still a frisson there, I think.

They have very different personalities. It's clear that Roger has been irked by some of Novak's (or his family's) behaviour in the past. Likewise, it's clear that Novak has never been enraptured by Roger in the way that many other of his rivals have been.

I think if Novak had hit his peak a couple of years earlier, this relationship had the potential to get really heated!

Interesting article HM. I think that as Novak has matured and grown into his role as one of the eminent players on tour, so too has Federer mellowed and become accustomed to actually having competition that can beat him on a semi-regular basis. At his peak, he was frequently spiky when it came to Novak (and Nadal before him, to a lesser extent), and some of his comments demonstrate pretty poor form, even if Novak was fairly trigger happy with the MTOs back in the day.

Still, what that article doesn't mention is that these days Federer has nothing but good things to say about Djokovic in interviews, and they do seem to get on a lot better in recent years. Djokovic has also softened his tone on Federer. Murray also follows the Novak example - notably, refusing to concede that Fed is the undisputed GOAT most of the time - and there's still some underlying antipathy there as well, similarly involving stiff competition and a lack of adulation. But again, Fed is quite glowing in his appraisal of Murray these days as well which is in direct contrast to how dismissive he could be at times when Murray was an emerging force - interesting. Perhaps he views himself as a bit of an elder statesman, these days?

Nice find good to have some fire in the rivalries at the top, it's a good contrast to Fedal which in itself is excellent.

Silver, yes. I though Federer's post match comments in the WTF were pretty classy when he said to Novak "you're the best".

I think part of it from Fed's view is that now he has won a slam at 31 against younger rivals and got the 300 weeks at number, there's nothing left to prove. He can sit back with a more impartial view. Almost like a fan in some ways.

for those of us with little to write about in the blogosphere, to turn to the age old endeavor of Poopie-stirring.

Is this not true of some of the threads on 606v2?

HM Murdoch wrote:He can sit back with a more impartial view.

Impartial or Imperial?

laverfan wrote:for those of us with little to write about in the blogosphere, to turn to the age old endeavor of Poopie-stirring.

Is this not true of some of the threads on 606v2?

HM Murdoch wrote:He can sit back with a more impartial view.

Impartial or Imperial?

Bit of both in truth.

Can you imagine the pressure that Wimbledon took off? Beating Djokovic and Murray at 31 when they're at their peak puts him something chunky in the bank when it comes to the ifs and buts debates, and getting past Pete on the weeks things, passing 300 as he did, just put the top hat on.

It's like he's playing not just with his winnings, but he's put a load of winnings in his pocket and he's playing with the stuff he never intended to keep anyway.

As a result I can see why he'd be relaxed and generous. It doesn't actually say Roger is generous per se, just that it costs him nothing to do so. I suspect if he hadn't got that Wimbledon and was losing out all the time he might be a bit more prickly.

Djoko, right from the start, was never reverential to Rog, nor was Murray who beat the great man regularly when still quite young.
Remember that time when Djoko, admittedly jokingly, said Fed was "going down" in a match they were due to play. Nole, in fact, lost that particular encounter but so many of the others of the mid-2000s period were beaten before they even started against Fed.
Easier for Fed to now show more respect to Nole and Andy given what they have achieved now and for the fact that he can still, from time to time, beat both of them.
On another point, isn't it time the Nole camp calmed down a bit ? Their over enthusiasm doesn't sit well with a number one.

Fed has got a big ego and he does not like to look stupid; if he feels superior on Court, I think he likes to express that off court if he feels his opponent is trying to engage with him off court too. Nadal has always offered more on court than off court, so I think Fed knows there's no point going there off court - he'll only look dumb as well as cheap.

I also agree with BB and HM, after the Wimbledon win bringing the 287 with it Fed can afford to mellow a bit. I hope it means he can still keep his intensity up - I'd love to see him genuinely challenge again at Wimbledon this year and pick up a tournament win or two.

What has Djokovic done to harm Federer? What can he do in the future to harm Federer? Even when his mother was claiming Djokovic was the new king to Federer all that boasting was no more irritating than a pesky fly. Pfft!

But that must and sometimes appears to drive Djokovic crazy. I bet he would like to rip his shirt off and jump up and down to "prove" to Federer and all the doubters that he really is superman... Oh wait a minute he's actually done that!

It doesn't help that Rafa for all his modesty and declarations that "my opponent is better than me" will never put him on the same pedestal as Federer. Federer and Nadal will be nice to him but no matter what he does they won't let them join their small very select group. And that's what Djokovic really, really wants.

I hope this doesn't sound like I don't like Djokovic because I do...

The two don't like each other, they do respect each other but you can tell when they play on the court from Fed's body language and from the intensity of it that isn't just another match. I don't think I have seen fed more animated even in his Nadal matches while the points are actually going on. Fed gives more cmons and fist pumps in those matches and he has a look on his face like he is really into it. This isn't to say he doesn't care when he plays the other big rivals, I think he still enjoys wins over Rafa more than Novak. But with Novak there is something beyond just the result of a tennis match. Yes they have both mellowed over the years but they are more like the US and Soviet Union in the 70s in some sort of detente.

Roger as others have said can now afford to be generous, he is clearly the most accomplished player of this or any other generation and has proven his mettle over and over again. Not having anything to prove and knowing his time is limited he has no reason to sow discord or controversy with a rival of Novak's stature. Just enjoy the ride.

I get the feeling that Fed's not to keen on Rafa or Murray either.

Eric, murray I agree with, but with Rafa, Rafa has been so self depracating and overflowing in praise for federer that over the years it has softened any harsh feelings. Djokovic just isn't that kind of guy and gives you ammunition to dislike him if you are so inclined.

By the way this dispells the nasty rumor that Djokovic's parents were yelling out during the point. Fed yelled at them because AFTER THE POINT WAS OVER THEY YELLED OUT THAT THE SHOT WAS IN AND THE MARK SHOULD BE CHECKED. In fact, Roger kicked the mark and it turns out the Djoko box was correct. This article is further proof that the urban myth of them yelling out during the point is simply not true.

Ha, I was actually at the Indian Wells final of 2011, and walked out on the handshake as I was in a hurry to get somewhere. Thought they never say nothing interesting in these interviews. And yet Nadal identified as the greatest ever by Djokovic - apparently.

I think the detailed article is worth reading http://tennis-column.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/the-relationship-between-federer-and.html

Although Djokovic and Federer are saints compared to Connors.

socal1976 wrote:By the way this dispells the nasty rumor that Djokovic's parents were yelling out during the point. Fed yelled at them because AFTER THE POINT WAS OVER THEY YELLED OUT THAT THE SHOT WAS IN AND THE MARK SHOULD BE CHECKED. In fact, Roger kicked the mark and it turns out the Djoko box was correct. This article is further proof that the urban myth of them yelling out during the point is simply not true.

I thought we all knew that and that the urban myth of them yelling out was created by Djoko fans in an attempt to discredit Fef/Fed fans? Why would they yell out for one of Djoko's shots - to try to get him to lose the point?

Federer has definitely relaxed a bit in his relationship with Djokovic and Murray. He's much more complimentary of both nowadays. I think as BB states that might be because he has beaten both to win a slam recently.

Before that I guess he might have wanted to put this pesky new generation in their place. Now he seems a bit more settled, all of his stats now state that he's the best ever so why should he bother with any animosity?

Of course, we don't see what goes on behind closed doors and there's always the possibility that Novak and Andy were a55holes to him!

I wonder how the relationships between Novak, Rafa and Andy will develop over the years. They are quite pally and respectful right now, but as they contest more and more slams will that change?

I find it amazing that Novak and Andy have had so many matches separated by tiny margins over the last 15 months yet still don't have any animosity. I'd almost like a bit of needle between them. I like rivalries with edge.

Roger was down right nasty to Novak in some of those past match interviews, he had no reason to jump in and go after Novak for withdrawals against Roddick or MTOs against Wawrinka. By the way didn't wawrinka take a couple of MTOs in his five set match against Djoko, was Roger so equally offended? Roger took great joy in calling Novak a quitter, although now it is pretty much proven that Novak did have serious allergy and respiratory issues including having nasal surgery and food allergies. I remember watching the first sets of matches sometimes where he couldn't breathe and was losing focus, and it was not from lack of conditioning or hardwork. So in retrospect those criticisms actually look pretty stupid right now.

Silver wrote:Interesting article HM. I think that as Novak has matured and grown into his role as one of the eminent players on tour, so too has Federer mellowed and become accustomed to actually having competition that can beat him on a semi-regular basis. At his peak, he was frequently spiky when it came to Novak (and Nadal before him, to a lesser extent), and some of his comments demonstrate pretty poor form, even if Novak was fairly trigger happy with the MTOs back in the day.

Still, what that article doesn't mention is that these days Federer has nothing but good things to say about Djokovic in interviews, and they do seem to get on a lot better in recent years. Djokovic has also softened his tone on Federer. Murray also follows the Novak example - notably, refusing to concede that Fed is the undisputed GOAT most of the time - and there's still some underlying antipathy there as well, similarly involving stiff competition and a lack of adulation. But again, Fed is quite glowing in his appraisal of Murray these days as well which is in direct contrast to how dismissive he could be at times when Murray was an emerging force - interesting. Perhaps he views himself as a bit of an elder statesman, these days?

Nice find good to have some fire in the rivalries at the top, it's a good contrast to Fedal which in itself is excellent.

I always found Fed's attitude to Murray and Novak highly amusing and becasue of it some thought I was some kind of anti-Fed demon - memorable stuff was thrown at me on the old 606

It was quite simple. All Roger had to do was accpet the special younger talents. Instead and with delicous irony, when you consider that he was seen as the most holy person on the planet - we got little if no praise and daft pithy comments. I mean we all agree that, back in early 2008, Andy needed to up his game a bit, but did we need to hear it from Roger just after he'd lost to him? Better would come a year later when, discussing Nole's Miami win over him he came out with the memorable "his worst was better than mine"!! Couldn't he just say 'Novak played better'?

All this did was win those two up, to get better and better - it was obvious they wanted to rub Roger's nose in it etc

Happily Roger reverted back to type - i.e. a warm considered thinker with good points to make.

Not certain that Roger has much time for Novak, even today though

Exactly, Banbro and I don't think Novak wants to pal around with Roger either. He just wants to beat him whenever they play and stay clear of media controversy surrounding his holliness, which is precisely the proper attitude to have. The thing with Djokovic is that he waded into controversy with Novak, even prior to the socalled King is dead comments, he couldn't wait to call him a faker and quitter, when he could have said I don't know or have no comment. Other players without the sense of entitlement and self-importance would have graciously skirted those issues. But he waded in to attack Djokovic a rising star with what was even at the time a well diagnosed respiratory and allergy issue.

Sorry I disagree socal1976. I think Novak would like nothing better than to pal along with Federer. Or at least Pal along with him in the same way that Rafa does. He would love it if Federer implied he was just as good as him. Strangely although I'm sure Rafa enjoys being acknowledged by Federer or anyone else I doubt he would take it to heart if he wasn't. But Djokovic really craves approval. And approval from the best of the best perhaps the most?

I wonder if Federer is aware of this?

Hawkeye, maybe years ago, but what does Djokovic gain by having Roger's approval? I mean if he takes Roger's approval down to a pizza parlor can he redeem it for a free slice of glutten free pizza? That ship has sailed and sure who doesn't like approval from their peers and one as accomplished as Federer. But I doubt it has ever been even a minor driving force of Djokovic. If it was he would have fawned all over Roger in 06 and 07, and 08 like everyone else.

socal1976 wrote:Roger was down right nasty to Novak in some of those past match interviews, he had no reason to jump in and go after Novak for withdrawals against Roddick or MTOs against Wawrinka. By the way didn't wawrinka take a couple of MTOs in his five set match against Djoko, was Roger so equally offended? Roger took great joy in calling Novak a quitter, although now it is pretty much proven that Novak did have serious allergy and respiratory issues including having nasal surgery and food allergies. I remember watching the first sets of matches sometimes where he couldn't breathe and was losing focus, and it was not from lack of conditioning or hardwork. So in retrospect those criticisms actually look pretty stupid right now.

Ye, I have suffered from allergies for years (got rid of them recently yahoooo!!!!!) and they can make you feel totally exhausted. I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to do sport at a professional level in that condition, so credit to Djokovic.

I also remember Federer saying after he beat Djokovic somewhere in 2007, that he didn't look anything special. I was really surprised how a guy like Federer couldn't see the abundance of talent Djokovic had. I didn't feel at ease during the US Open 2007 final, even prior to the match, Djokovic with his confident slightly cocky attitude frightened me. Only when he started visibly choking I could relax.

Good post chydremion, I remember that 07 match and I was cheering for crazy for Novak. He had set points in every set if I remember and some how choked away all of them. Well he was a work in progress but what a work progress it turned out to be. I used to be a federer fan in 07 and a djoko fan if you can believe it. But the more Roger bullyied Novak and made little divaish comments questioning his ability, his veracity, and his heart the more I began to not appreciate. The day I stopped being a fed fan completely was that clay court match in 08 when he yelled into Djoko's box.

Don't get me wrong, I give the man his due, best player of all time a sheer magician Federer. And overall he has been a huge positive for the sport and done great things off the court with charity. He is a good and successful person on every account. Yet, I slowly soured on the man for his divaish behavior and the almost worshipful one sidedness of the coverage he received. And Roger has some very charming fans online who have conducted a smear campaign against Nadal another tennis great of humble demeanor, to the extent that I can't say their conduct hasn't impacted my view of the player either. I know Roger doesn't control his fans but hey rooting for someone is emotional, it isn't logical and rooting against them is also emotional.

Agreed Chydremion, it was obvious right from the start that Novak had all the talent to go a long way. I remember seeing him lose to Federer at the AO that year, nowhere near the player he grew into in 2007 at that stage but his gifts were evident, some of the ball striking and easy power really impressed me at the time even in heavy defeat. I think Fed's conduct did him a disservice throughout 2007-8 regarding Novak, I can understand and see why it happened but certainly didn't think it was right at the time or since, even as an ardent fan of Federer. The media and fans do trump him up to be perfect (peRFect, right?) and of course he's not - great ambassador for the game and I do firmly believe that he's a good person, but he does have his character flaws and Federer fans need to accept that the man isn't beyond reproach or criticism.

socal1976 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I give the man his due, best player of all time a sheer magician Federer. And overall he has been a huge positive for the sport and done great things off the court with charity. He is a good and successful person on every account. Yet, I slowly soured on the man for his divaish behavior and the almost worshipful one sidedness of the coverage he received. And Roger has some very charming fans online who have conducted a smear campaign against Nadal another tennis great of humble demeanor, to the extent that I can't say their conduct hasn't impacted my view of the player either. I know Roger doesn't control his fans but hey rooting for someone is emotional, it isn't logical and rooting against them is also emotional.

I respect you a lot for posting this, socal, considering I know how Fed and his fans get your goat at times (no pun intended) - very considered.

This is Fed's post match interview after losing to Novak at Montreal in 2007.

It's typical of their relationship at the time. There's nothing in it that you can say is insulting or even factually incorrect... but the antipathy comes off it like steam!

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=44847

Thanks Silver, I mean I don't know the man personally and no one can deny his rightful place at the top of the game (until Nadal gets within a slam or two and then I will be denying it) he earned it. And he has been great for the game. But I can't warm to his personality or persona in regards to certain conduct. Maybe I am particularly sensitive because I am an intense Novak fan.

Murdoch lets just say they will never be friends, around 07-08 the hot period your great link documented with the heatedness of their rivalry I made a choice, before I was a djoko and fed fan. But at some point I decided being a djoko fan and fed fan was like supporting Man united and city, or liverpool and everton. And there was no question in my mind which way I would be going.

I prefer Djokovic's open minded cockyness to Nadal's fake humility any time. Whether or not he likes Djokovic over Nadal, guess we won't find out. When I've seen Federer and Nadal on camera together it does seem forced and that they would rather be somewhere else. Federer and Djokovic have a similar sense of humour, and they don't pretend to be humble.

Watching Federer and Nadal last night I couldn't help but feel a little sorry for Djokovic. The ranking points indicate that he is the number one player but you never would guess that he is by the schedule, the fans and the electric atmosphere that they bring to the court.

Djokovic is no Lendl and IMO he does care about such things. I would guess judging from his personality maybe a little more than he does about collecting trophies. The trophies are just a means to an end. That's one of the reasons I like him but it also explains his coldness towards Federer. I think it could also explain the shirt ripping too. "Look at me I'm superman" or "please, please look at me too"

hawkeye wrote:Watching Federer and Nadal last night I couldn't help but feel a little sorry for Djokovic. The ranking points indicate that he is the number one player but you never would guess that he is by the schedule

Yes, how unusual for the number 1 player to be scheduled for the evening session. That's the graveyard slot of tennis.

By the way, when is the Federer-Nadal QF scheduled for?

First match of the evening session I think, HM. Not before 7pm.

Murdoch and Hawkeye, Djokovic has gotten used to this type of scheduling and other forms of discrimination from the tournament and organizers. But he has managed to fight through these adversities and preferential treatment his rivals receive to get to where he is. Still at the end of the day it is about ratings and he has upped his profile quite a bit and as he gets more exposure they will give him more respect. It is the business of the sport, but he was peed off in that match you could tell. He was taking like 14 seconds per point and in the first set he was taking it out on poor Querrey. He was not happy during the match at all.

I think I was a little subtle in my sarcasm!

The biggest matches often get the evening slot. Novak got the evening slot.

I think Hawkeye missed the irony that she said Novak didn't get the scheduling of a number 1 but the Fedal QF is scheduled for the equivalent session!

The scheduling did become farcical yesterday though.

Well murdoch I don't know about that in this case because the way the schedule was written the last match of the day session, ie Nadal v. Gulbis is the headliner. The night session is shorter and often less well attended. But in general your point is correct. At least they didn't kick him onto Stadium 2 at anypoint, he doesn't get any outside court treatment anymore.

HM Murdoch wrote:I think I was a little subtle in my sarcasm!

The biggest matches often get the evening slot. Novak got the evening slot.

I think Hawkeye missed the irony that she said Novak didn't get the scheduling of a number 1 but the Fedal QF is scheduled for the equivalent session!

The scheduling did become farcical yesterday though.

I definitely missed it! Duly embarrassed

Well Socal, you're our reporter on the ground for schedule!

But if the much-anticipated Fedal match is being put on at 7 and Novak was on at 8:30, I don't view that 90 mins as the difference between "the players everyone loves" and "that other guy we're less bothered about" as Hawkeye was inferring!

socal1976 wrote:Eric, murray I agree with, but with Rafa, Rafa has been so self depracating and overflowing in praise for federer that over the years it has softened any harsh feelings. Djokovic just isn't that kind of guy and gives you ammunition to dislike him if you are so inclined.

I think Fed's fed up with Nadal's, "I'm not the best player" routine. Whenever they play, even all those times at the French, Nadal always said "I'm not the favourite" taking the pressure off himself. Then acting like it's a big surprise when he wins

Makes you wonder what he'd be like if he actually broke the slam record. Would all of it come off and he'd finally say he's the best?

erictheblueuk wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Eric, murray I agree with, but with Rafa, Rafa has been so self depracating and overflowing in praise for federer that over the years it has softened any harsh feelings. Djokovic just isn't that kind of guy and gives you ammunition to dislike him if you are so inclined.

I think Fed's fed up with Nadal's, "I'm not the best player" routine. Whenever they play, even all those times at the French, Nadal always said "I'm not the favourite" taking the pressure off himself. Then acting like it's a big surprise when he wins

Precisely, I don't think it is an act, I think Nadal is a bit of self conscious and introverted guy who fights the way that he does because he has desperate fear of failure. Some say it is false modesty, but if it is then he is crazy like a fox.

I also dont think its an act. Like McEnroe said "Nadal plays like he is broke". I think Toni has instilled that belief in Rafa that he needs to work twice as hard as anyone else to get half as far. So it isnt out of the realm of reality for Nadal to truly believe that Federer is a better player. Especially since 17>11 in any numerical system I have ever used.

I dont think Nadal and Federer 'force' their relationship, they arent best friends, but I think they are more like Gatti and Ward, or Botham-Richards, two guys who get along well enough.

Djokovic Federer remind me, from the outside of my relationship with my boss. We dont hate each other, and we would probably throw water on each other if the other was on fire, but if I saw him at the mall and he didnt see me, I would not make an effort to greet him, and neither would he in the same situation.

Toni has brainwashed Rafa into believing he is and never will be as good as Federer.. its not false humility its what Toni has instilled in him. He has worshipped at the shrine of Federer but I do believe now that he has the respect and friendship of the Maestro. Toni also made him believe that just because he is a top tennis player he is no better than anyone else. The only time you see Rafa really believing in , and being himself ,is when he is on court.. as soon as that bandanna comes off.. he is back to the humble person he has been brought up to be.

I agree with haddie and kingraf, I mean Nadal is very humble both towards fed and to all his opponents, now the same can't be said of the diva in the cream colored monogrammed leisure suit.

Thanks for the shout out, HM Murdoch. I think the game can always benefit from a little animosity between it's biggest rivals - it's just part of the real drama. I also think that deep down, Federer still thinks he's a better tennis player than all his main rivals, and it sticks in his craw when he loses to them - even now, but he has (begrudging) respect for them. I don't think the same can be said for Berdych - I think it still pisses him off to lose to him particularly because Berdych rarely closes the deal after beating him. In fact, I don't think Berdych has won a single tournament in which he has beaten Federer.

But that's all speculation.

That was your blog MMT1? Cool.
Welcome to the forum.

Yeah that is a great and detailed blog post, I liked it as it looked to pull the curtain back on what has been a complicated relationship in a great rivalry. I like a little fire in the belly and intensity when facing off for a big trophy. The we are friends off the court stuff is fine but I know for me as a Djoko fan that a win over federer counts way more than a win even against Nadal and Murray.

There is no doubt that this has been a great rivalry in the past with all the associated intensity and 'niggle factor' that came with it ; but those days are, sadly, now gone.

Any matchup between a) a guy in the twilight of his career, so close to retirement and b) a player in the very first part of his prime tennis years with a further spell of world domination very possibly (?)still ahead just cannot have the same frisson as it once did.

I don't know lags - Connors and Lendl never got on, even as Connors walked on court with his zimmer frame.

True enough .... but I'd say things were a bit different there.

We have already seen Fed mellow somewhat in his dotage, I am convinced that the fire now burn less intensely than it once did (whatever his understandable claims to the contrary).

Plus .... I'm struggling to think of anyone who actually ever 'got on' with Lendl

Or Connors!

MMT1 wrote:Thanks for the shout out, HM Murdoch.

That was a superb article, MMT. Fantastic research.

Good to see you on this forum.

lags72 wrote:True enough .... but I'd say things were a bit different there.

We have already seen Fed mellow somewhat in his dotage, I am convinced that the fire now burn less intensely than it once did (whatever his understandable claims to the contrary).

Plus .... I'm struggling to think of anyone who actually ever 'got on' with Lendl

Lendl didn´t even get on with Lendl...the most unpopular player in the locker room