Excuses if Wales win the championship?

First topic message reminder :

43 minutes into round one, the championship was something of an unimaginable dream. The odds were probably 250 billion-1 for Wales to even make a top half finish. It went from France / England being tournament favourites to a certain Irish grand slam.

Looking back I think the ineptitude Wales showed for 43 mins was a blessing in disguise. A kick up the backside, a motivator.

3 and a half matches later we find that Wales are just a gnats pube away from back to back championships. England are unbeaten, but that is less of a surprise. If England win it will be deserved. If Wales win it will be the comeback of all comebacks.

Both teams can do this. My question is, what will the excuses be if Wales do win?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:What I've found mildly disconcerting this week is that I've actually missed Warren Gatland's "mind games" in the media!

You can usually bank on some outrageous comments from Gats in the week before a big game, and so far this week there's been a void.

Very disappointing!

H's saving all that for the Lions tour. The week before the first Test, he's going to call Julia Gillard a plank and push her off a ladder.

He will as well! I can only imagine the sort of nonsense Gatland will come out with to wind up the Aussies, can't wait!

Gatland is not needed for the press right now, have any of you read the 'headlines' in the beeb site.

"England ready for ultimate test - Farrell"

"Jones hails match 'of a generation' "

Has anyone told them it is really just a 6 Nations championship decider (possible GS decider) in the last two seasons both sides have played in one of these matches before.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Gatland is not needed for the press right now, have any of you read the 'headlines' in the beeb site.

"England ready for ultimate test - Farrell"

"Jones hails match 'of a generation' "

Has anyone told them it is really just a 6 Nations championship decider (possible GS decider) in the last two seasons both sides have played in one of these matches before.

I don't think Many of the England team have. I think there are only five in the current starting line up that lost in Dublin.



2011 England Team vs ireland for last GS attempt.

Foden 5: Not a day for a full back in a white shirt. Probably enjoyed his stint at scrum half more.

Ashton 5: Made one of those lovely breaks off Flood's inside but threw it straight to D'Arcy. Summed up England's day.

Banahan 5: Taught a lesson by the master O'Driscoll. Shackled at every move. Needs to play outside centre more for his club.

Hape 4: Like Banahan had an uncomfortable evening, from which inevitable questions will arise about his international calibre.

Cueto 4:Thoroughly anonymous. Tried to get involved, but just couldn't.

Flood 5: Stood flat as ever but was just throwing out passes that created nothing. Only lasted 50 minutes before Jonny Wilkinson was
summoned.

Youngs 3: Sniped and probed but found no way through. Yellow card for throwing ball away was silly, if a little harsh. Did not return.

Corbisiero 6: Had a decent match all things considered. England have unearthed a quality prop here.

Hartley 4: Some gutsy throws to tail at the start but could never impose himself in the loose.

Cole 5: An evening to forget for the Leicester man. Maybe needs to stop a bit-part player at club.

Deacon 5: Is a committed performer but was shown to be a notch below the highest class here.

Palmer 4: Lasted just 26 minutes before being replaced by Simon Shaw. Neither made any impression.

Wood 5: One lovely jinking break in the second half but was outmuscled. Has had a fine tournament but slipped at the final hurdle.

Haskell 6: Never shirked for a moment but the truth is that England need Lewis Moody back at openside.

Easter 5: A day when it became clear sheer bulk is not enough. Ireland had the dynamism.

Replacements: Thompson scored a try, Jonny Wilkinson missed a kick. Tom Croft knocked on. It didn't really matter by then.



Last game England vs Italy 2013

Alex Goode - He’s had a great tournament but for the first time errors crept in to his game and at times he lacked conviction. 5/10

Chris Ashton - Another frustrating day for the Saracens wing, who was denied a try by a superb tackle by Furo and saw few other opportunities. 6

Manu Tuilagi - England didn’t win enough front-foot ball to use his line-breaking skills and he was well-marshalled by Canale. 6

Brad Barritt - A quiet afternoon for the Saracens centre who surprisingly missed a tackle and also failed to give a pass when a try opportunity looked on. 5

Mike Brown - Made one fantastic break but couldn’t get the pass away to Chris Ashton that would have led to a try. Sound under the high ball. 7

Toby Flood - Perfect kicking display at goal, with six penalties, but not so accurate out of hand and wasted an overlap opportunity. Seemed to lose his way in second half. 6

Danny Care - Busy at times but his display likely to be defined by the poor box kick that led to Luke McLean’s try for Italy.

Mako Vunipola - The Saracens prop was England’s stand-out forward in the first half, with powerful carries and defence before running out of steam. 5

Tom Youngs - Aside from one line-out wobble, the Leicester hooker, scrummaged well and made his presence felt in the loose. 6

Dan Cole - Not as prominent in the loose as he has been and had a hard shift at scrum time. England missed his poaching skills at the breakdown. 6

Joe Launchbury - Not the day for his rangy runs but was solid in the line-out and never stopped working. 6

Geoff Parling - Was one of England’s most effective forwards and his presence at the line-out was missed. 6

James Haskell - Did not manage to have the same impact as his last start against Ireland but not at fault for effort. 6

Chris Robshaw - Tried to keep England going forward and kept his cool when the pressure came on during the final quarter. 6

Tom Wood - Another display full of commitment and heart but outshone by his opposite number Sergio Parisse. 6

Havent fans been saying on here what a poor showing the six nations has been this year? All this when it looked likely England would win, now people are starting to talk up the tournament now another team has a big chance at winning it?

nathan wrote:Havent fans been saying on here what a poor showing the six nations has been this year? All this when it looked likely England would win, now people are starting to talk up the tournament now another team has a big chance at winning it?

I don't know about anyone else, but to be honest the championship will be more of a shambles if Wales are crowned the champions than if England win the GS. If England win, whilst the rest of us have been poor, atleast they have played decent enough. Whereas if Wales win then it is a rather sad day, as they have been toothless this season so far, and have not really looked like a team that deserve to win.

I think I can help out here. Regrettably Wales won't win the game, and England will happily accept the GS - whatever anyone wants to call it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

nathan wrote:Havent fans been saying on here what a poor showing the six nations has been this year? All this when it looked likely England would win, now people are starting to talk up the tournament now another team has a big chance at winning it?

I don't know about anyone else, but to be honest the championship will be more of a shambles if Wales are crowned the champions than if England win the GS. If England win, whilst the rest of us have been poor, atleast they have played decent enough. Whereas if Wales win then it is a rather sad day, as they have been toothless this season so far, and have not really looked like a team that deserve to win.

+1 for me.

England winning the slam makes sense, everyone played poorly but England have been consistent with an effective gameplan.

Wales taking it on final day would be a bad joke for the tournament, theyve been poor and very conservative.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

nathan wrote:Havent fans been saying on here what a poor showing the six nations has been this year? All this when it looked likely England would win, now people are starting to talk up the tournament now another team has a big chance at winning it?

I don't know about anyone else, but to be honest the championship will be more of a shambles if Wales are crowned the champions than if England win the GS. If England win, whilst the rest of us have been poor, atleast they have played decent enough. Whereas if Wales win then it is a rather sad day, as they have been toothless this season so far, and have not really looked like a team that deserve to win.

+1 for me.

England winning the slam makes sense, everyone played poorly but England have been consistent with an effective gameplan.

Wales taking it on final day would be a bad joke for the tournament, theyve been poor and very conservative.

An accurate, if disturbingly depressing summary. I may have to watch that Barry John documentary again, just to cheer myself up.

Regardless of whether Wales win or (as is likely) lose, this has been a grim 6N.

Casartelli wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

nathan wrote:Havent fans been saying on here what a poor showing the six nations has been this year? All this when it looked likely England would win, now people are starting to talk up the tournament now another team has a big chance at winning it?

I don't know about anyone else, but to be honest the championship will be more of a shambles if Wales are crowned the champions than if England win the GS. If England win, whilst the rest of us have been poor, atleast they have played decent enough. Whereas if Wales win then it is a rather sad day, as they have been toothless this season so far, and have not really looked like a team that deserve to win.

+1 for me.

England winning the slam makes sense, everyone played poorly but England have been consistent with an effective gameplan.

Wales taking it on final day would be a bad joke for the tournament, theyve been poor and very conservative.

An accurate, if disturbingly depressing summary. I may have to watch that Barry John documentary again, just to cheer myself up.

Regardless of whether Wales win or (as is likely) lose, this has been a grim 6N.

grim might be a bit harsh, but it hasn't been one you'll want to remember for too long!

Dire then. Rugby wise. Some of it's been quite exciting, I suppose.

It’s a fair point. The 6N is a special and exciting competition with lots of bragging rights. But given its attritional and unpredictable nature, looking at the bigger picture winning it carries somewhat limited global kudos IMO (a bit like the Lions – there, I’ve gone and said it). Always nice to win it, but it’s all about consistency over the 4 years and in particular the RWC for me.

Mind you we're still gonna win it

I do wonder if the presure of the Lions tour has had anything to do with it (other than Italy and France of course)

nathan wrote:I do wonder if the presure of the Lions tour has had anything to do with it (other than Italy and France of course)

You mean not making mistakes = lions spot. Might be a decent point!!!

Back to the question

In all honesty this has to be one of the worst 6 nations in terms of skill, and excitement I can remember.

It all started so brightly, with the first weekend bringing some great exciting games, but since then it has been terrible

Who wins, who knows. Both will deserve it as they were the best of a bad bunch

RubyGuby wrote:You mean AngloSafferpolynewzealanesian

i take exception to the use of Saffer.

Riskysports wrote:Back to the question

In all honesty this has to be one of the worst 6 nations in terms of skill, and excitement I can remember.

It all started so brightly, with the first weekend bringing some great exciting games, but since then it has been terrible

Who wins, who knows. Both will deserve it as they were the best of a bad bunch

+1 For me.

Totaly agree with you 100%. The first week end it was looking pretty good, then it all went down hill.

"And oftentimes excusing of a fault
Doth make the fault the worse by the excuse."
~William Shakespeare

And Mr Howley

Biltong wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:You mean AngloBothapolynewzealanesian

i take exception to the use of Saffer.

No you don't but I'm happy to change all the same

RubyGuby wrote:

Biltong wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:You mean AngloBothapolynewzealanesian

i take exception to the use of Saffer.

No you don't but I'm happy to change all the same

Is Steve Walsh the Ref?

Churchill on Refs:

"If you have ten thousand regulations, you destroy all respect for the law. "

In terms of excitement I disagree that it has been grim or poor, there have been some thrilling games, they don't need to be high scoring to be exciting. England vs Italy was a corker. Italy vs France too. England vs France was frantic, manic brilliant, Scotland vs Ireland frustrating but so tight so much passion, Wales vs Ireland had two separate brilliant halves depending on who you were supporting.

Though the two top teams have not been the most thrilling, they have been pragmatic, and France more self implodingly bizarre than ever before, they have been missing for 90% of their games so far and what a shame it has been as so many times before they always added so much flare and brilliance.

As great as it has been to see such revery from italy and Scotland the two shining lights, on their day, the opposite can be said for much of what the others have done.

The biggest plus point has been that there have been no easy games.

I agree with Maes (not for the first time in this thread). I have found the games very compelling to watch as the teams have been so closely matched and the winner anything but a foregone conclusion. I think that this will be the case in the final round too and as previously said whoever comes out on top truly deserves to win the championship.

Ozzy3213 wrote:maesteg

Give it a rest will you. From what I've seen this week the Welsh and English idiots have been as bad as each other. Myself and the other mods are watching, and if they carry on, then some from both sides won't see the end of the week on here.

Thank you! Mr copy n paste is one of the worst!..........sometimes. Btw,Honestly, if I read the word devalued again There is no such thing is there? Can we all put it down to a poor competition where in all seriousness, teams were not at their best,hampered by injuries to key players, the weather has been dire and we've had new and cartaker coaches. de-sodding-valued my arris....

No slam is ever devalued......unless......it is by the English after the Welsh won, so quite often in recent years. Obviously there is no chance of this Grand slam being devalued for 2 reasons 1. It is England not Wales poised to win 2. they haven't won it yet.

OK Breadvan - definitely not devalued then - whoever wins!!

No excuses from me if Wales win on Sat. Unless Walsh is high fiving the players then guest of honour at the squad lash up afterwards...

I think if Wales win then it would be an overvalued championship

Ozzy3213 wrote:maesteg

Give it a rest will you. From what I've seen this week the Welsh and English idiots have been as bad as each other. Myself and the other mods are watching, and if they carry on, then some from both sides won't see the end of the week on here.

I hope thats in reference to a certain few, and not just posters from those countries in general from an Australian POV?

RubyGuby wrote:I think if Wales win then it would be an overvalued championship

Is this a whole new world of pain? I thought that we had enough problems with undervalued!

BTW Walsh

Not that he will affect the value of the outcome of course...

stub wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I think if Wales win then it would be an overvalued championship

Is this a whole new world of pain? I thought that we had enough problems with undervalued!

BTW Walsh

Not that he will affect the value of the outcome of course...

Thats reserved for Joubert

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:maesteg

Give it a rest will you. From what I've seen this week the Welsh and English idiots have been as bad as each other. Myself and the other mods are watching, and if they carry on, then some from both sides won't see the end of the week on here.

I hope thats in reference to a certain few, and not just posters from those countries in general from an Australian POV?

Apologies, just found the original place that was posted (wheres the blushing smiley face?)

thebluesmancometh wrote:

stub wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I think if Wales win then it would be an overvalued championship

Is this a whole new world of pain? I thought that we had enough problems with undervalued!

BTW Walsh

Not that he will affect the value of the outcome of course...

Thats reserved for Joubert

Ha Ha

maestegmafia wrote:In terms of excitement I disagree that it has been grim or poor, there have been some thrilling games, they don't need to be high scoring to be exciting.

Exactly right. And who knows, maybe the final weekend will reach the heights of the first.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:In terms of excitement I disagree that it has been grim or poor, there have been some thrilling games, they don't need to be high scoring to be exciting.

Exactly right. And who knows, maybe the final weekend will reach the heights of the first.

I hope so too, the manner of refereeing could be improved dramatically.

In defence of the referees, it's not their fault the IRB have invented an offence, which is what the early engagement is. It has nothing to do with scrummaging.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:In defence of the referees, it's not their fault the IRB have invented an offence, which is what the early engagement is. It has nothing to do with scrummaging.

True, and why is one team early, is the other not late? There were plenty of instances last week where a team were holding back waiting for a penalty.

Ridiculous rule but administered poorly.

The referee has to know when and when not to apply laws. There has to be empathy with the players and the way the game develops during its course.

RubyGuby wrote:I think if Wales win then it would be an overvalued championship

+ infinity

I've said elsewhere that it's a shame we'll never get to have Nigel Owens refereeing a Wales game. Even if he's wrong or pedantic about something, he'll be equally wrong / pedantic for both teams, and his playing of the advantage is the best I've seen this season (it was spot on in the Munster - Ospreys game).

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've said elsewhere that it's a shame we'll never get to have Nigel Owens refereeing a Wales game. Even if he's wrong or pedantic about something, he'll be equally wrong / pedantic for both teams, and his playing of the advantage is the best I've seen this season (it was spot on in the Munster - Ospreys game).

Watching the super xv there are far more decent referees there. We get the dross, Owens has been a touch judge all six nations, in the game last Sunday Clancy over ruled advice Owens had seen right infront of him, debate able whether Clancy had a view at all. That type of behaviour can not be tolerated.

That was pride from Clancy.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That was pride from Clancy.

Awful decision, Clancy couldnt see clearly and called a knock on by Parisse, Owens said there was no knock on, Clancy over ruled it and luckily for Italy Parisse didn't swear at Clancy but blwdi well should have..

I think Clancy was evening things up following the ball boy debacle in Cardiff. In my job I am accountable and people would want to know why I made a particular decision when soemone with a better understanding and knowledge of the situation of equal ability suggested something different. It was a no brainer for Clancy and he made a mistake. It happens

Clancy wasn't involved in the ball boy incident.

RubyGuby wrote:I think Clancy was evening things up following the ball boy debacle in Cardiff. In my job I am accountable and people would want to know why I made a particular decision when soemone with a better understanding and knowledge of the situation of equal ability suggested something different. It was a no brainer for Clancy and he made a mistake. It happens

He makes mistakes and ignores good advice far too often, he ruins games with more frequency than he improves them.

Isn't the title of this thread the wrong way round? Wales' 6N started badly, but they're now in a place to win the Championship. They're the defending champions, they have the more experienced squad and they're at home. The only things really counting against them are the 7 point difference they have to overhaul (the winning margin the last time these teams met), and Lancaster's away record in the 6N.

Shouldn't we be asking what Welsh excuses will be if England win?

Poorfour wrote:Isn't the title of this thread the wrong way round? Wales' 6N started badly, but they're now in a place to win the Championship. They're the defending champions, they have the more experienced squad and they're at home. The only things really counting against them are the 7 point difference they have to overhaul (the winning margin the last time these teams met), and Lancaster's away record in the 6N.

Shouldn't we be asking what Welsh excuses will be if England win?

You should. But then nothing really makes much sense when it comes to the Anglo Welsh rivalry, does it?

Poorfour wrote:Isn't the title of this thread the wrong way round? Wales' 6N started badly, but they're now in a place to win the Championship. They're the defending champions, they have the more experienced squad and they're at home. The only things really counting against them are the 7 point difference they have to overhaul (the winning margin the last time these teams met), and Lancaster's away record in the 6N.

Shouldn't we be asking what Welsh excuses will be if England win?

Rather well put, and an uncomfortable truth for some.

Jimpy wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Isn't the title of this thread the wrong way round? Wales' 6N started badly, but they're now in a place to win the Championship. They're the defending champions, they have the more experienced squad and they're at home. The only things really counting against them are the 7 point difference they have to overhaul (the winning margin the last time these teams met), and Lancaster's away record in the 6N.

Shouldn't we be asking what Welsh excuses will be if England win?

Rather well put, and an uncomfortable truth for some.

To be honest if England win there is no need for an excuse. They have probably been the only side to have played any near decent rugby this season. If you read through a fair few of the posts above, a handful of us welsh lads have said that realistically the English deserve it more than we do, and as such there is no need for excuses. Excuses are used to justify things happening that are wrong, which to be fair Wales winning the 6Ns would be.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Isn't the title of this thread the wrong way round? Wales' 6N started badly, but they're now in a place to win the Championship. They're the defending champions, they have the more experienced squad and they're at home. The only things really counting against them are the 7 point difference they have to overhaul (the winning margin the last time these teams met), and Lancaster's away record in the 6N.

Shouldn't we be asking what Welsh excuses will be if England win?

Rather well put, and an uncomfortable truth for some.

To be honest if England win there is no need for an excuse. They have probably been the only side to have played any near decent rugby this season. If you read through a fair few of the posts above, a handful of us welsh lads have said that realistically the English deserve it more than we do, and as such there is no need for excuses. Excuses are used to justify things happening that are wrong, which to be fair Wales winning the 6Ns would be.

I did say 'for some'...