Wales real rivals?

Ask a military historian and he'll tell you Rourke's Drift was nowhere near as militarily significant as the trouncing the red coats got at Isandlwana in the Anglo-Zulu Wars of 1879. Yet, the former is much more readily recalled in the public imagination, probably thanks to Stanley Baker and Michael Cane.

Historically of course it's always been nice to get one over the English, but that is in social and historic terms. Just what are we saying is the sporting significance of yesterday's much lauded showdown in Cardiff?

In sporting terms I'd suggest that actually it was a side show. Yes, it was a far better spectacle in terms of entertainment and intensity, a fitting almost climax to the whole shing bang; but I suspect rugby historians a century hence will point to the opener in Cardiff against Ireland as the most significant match in this year's championship. That first forgettable half of rugby which cost Wales back to back Grand Slams.

Lets face it, our biggest rugby rivalry is now with Ireland. The spring board to the 2012 Grand Slam was beating Ireland away in the opener. The Rubicon we had to cross in 2011 to mount a meaningful assault on the Webb Ellis trophy was Ireland in the quarters. We play our domestic rugby against them or under their referees. Take out France, who defy pattern and convention, and from '08 to date (Wales' fourth Golden Age) it's been us and them.

England on the other hand have suffered the latest in a succession of false dawns since Woodward's departure. It seems that once they believe they can do it, they power on into overconfidence. That balance of gaining confidence but avoiding complacency was hard for them before 2003, but seems to have been impossible since.

But they've beaten New Zealand? In athletics there is a note made of results that are "wind assisted". New Zealand have refused to blame the Norovirus for their loss. However they picked their strongest team to face Wales the week before because they knew, despite the succession of narrow misses against Australia, where their biggest challenge lay. Of course, as usual, they were right.

So on St Patrick's Day, lets not forget our main rugby rivals. Next year we travel to Dublin. It will be the biggest match of our campaign. The current Irish set up will have gone and we will face the kings of European Cup rugby on their home turf. Yes, Twickenham will be tough, the French always have the capacity to lift their game if they chose to do so. But if we are to consolidate our position as double Six Nation Champions and get on a rising plane into the 2015 WC, then we have to do well in Dublin.

See you there. I may even take a Pith Helmet...

I think our big rivals will always be England, as will Scotland, Ireland and France biggest game be against England.

I think for the normal rank and file Welshman who watches the 6 Nations and only the 6 nations then he would laugh if you suggested Ireland are our biggest rival. Most Welsh rugby fans thinks the rugby season starts and ends with the 6 Nations. A lot really have no idea what regions are or that we don't have a club set up anymore.

But for the rugby fan who takes an interest in regional rugby and looks at the sport as a bit more than the annual 6 Nations píss up, then I agree that Ireland and Wales are pretty even and knocking seven bells out of each other has developed a rivalry, and helped strengthen both countries. But from what I can gather if Ireland play England I can assure you every Welshman is behind Ireland. I think the Welsh appreciate the class of the Irish and the fact playing against their quality players and talent enhances Welsh rugby, the Irish allies and rivals, and were all smart enough to understand the matches are mutually beneficial.

Though of course the Welsh would rather be in the Aviva Premiership smashing the English.

Glas a du wrote:
But they've beaten New Zealand? In athletics there is a note made of results that are "wind assisted". New Zealand have refused to blame the Norovirus for their loss. However they picked their strongest team to face Wales the week before because they knew, despite the succession of narrow misses against Australia, where their biggest challenge lay. Of course, as usual, they were right.

ABs v Wales:
15 FB Israel Dagg
14 W Cory Jane
13 C Conrad Smith
12 C Ma'a Nonu
11 W Julian Savea
10 FH Aaron Cruden
9 SH Aaron Smith
1 P Tony Woodcock
2 H Andrew Hore
3 P Owen Franks
4 L Luke Romano
5 L Sam Whitelock
6 F Liam Messam
7 F Richie McCaw (c)
8 N8 Kieran Read

Result 10-33

ABs v England
15 FB Israel Dagg
14 W Cory Jane
13 C Conrad Smith
12 C Ma'a Nonu
11 W Julian Savea
10 FH Dan Carter
9 SH Aaron Smith
1 P Tony Woodcock
2 H Keven Mealamu
3 P Owen Franks
4 L Brodie Retallick
5 L Sam Whitelock
6 F Liam Messam
7 F Richie McCaw (c)
8 N8 Kieran Read

For me the 3 changes (i enforced) made ABs stronger against us. Not sure how you can say that during the autumn Wales were a bigger challenge. At that point they were low on form and confidence - after all Argentina and Samoa had joined Australia in beating them.

As thr 6Ns has progressed Wales have grown stronger and are clearly the best NH team - but back in November they were a long way from that. Your suggestion that Wlaes offered a bigger challenge back then is a touch, hmm, insane?

LondonTiger wrote:

Glas a du wrote:
But they've beaten New Zealand? In athletics there is a note made of results that are "wind assisted". New Zealand have refused to blame the Norovirus for their loss. However they picked their strongest team to face Wales the week before because they knew, despite the succession of narrow misses against Australia, where their biggest challenge lay. Of course, as usual, they were right.

ABs v Wales:
15 FB Israel Dagg
14 W Cory Jane
13 C Conrad Smith
12 C Ma'a Nonu
11 W Julian Savea
10 FH Aaron Cruden
9 SH Aaron Smith
1 P Tony Woodcock
2 H Andrew Hore
3 P Owen Franks
4 L Luke Romano
5 L Sam Whitelock
6 F Liam Messam
7 F Richie McCaw (c)
8 N8 Kieran Read

Result 10-33

ABs v England
15 FB Israel Dagg
14 W Cory Jane
13 C Conrad Smith
12 C Ma'a Nonu
11 W Julian Savea
10 FH Dan Carter
9 SH Aaron Smith
1 P Tony Woodcock
2 H Keven Mealamu
3 P Owen Franks
4 L Brodie Retallick
5 L Sam Whitelock
6 F Liam Messam
7 F Richie McCaw (c)
8 N8 Kieran Read

For me the 3 changes (i enforced) made ABs stronger against us. Not sure how you can say that during the autumn Wales were a bigger challenge. At that point they were low on form and confidence - after all Argentina and Samoa had joined Australia in beating them.

As thr 6Ns has progressed Wales have grown stronger and are clearly the best NH team - but back in November they were a long way from that. Your suggestion that Wlaes offered a bigger challenge back then is a touch, hmm, insane?

+1

Except I will add that before the AI's started NZ coaching staff had noted that they had to keep the squad fully prepared for Wales in particular, and that the last game up would be immensely difficult because of last game of the season syndrome.

So Wales win a 6ns tournament. And then say that their biggest rival is Ireland?...Is This the same Ireland that picked up the Wooden spoon this year.

Well based on most recent matches (ahem thats the 6Ns) its clearly England. Also ask the majority of your patriots and "as long as you beat the English you don't care"...... about anything else

Next year's England v Wales match will be England' s last chance to register a W against Wales at HQ before the WC group encounter.This game will be immense.
Wales have won the last three head to heads and a win again next season will transform Twickers into a bit of a fortress for the Welsh side.It will be a must win game for England.I hope that they cope better withhold that pressure than they managed yesterday.

majesticimperialman wrote:So Wales win a 6ns tournament. And then say that their biggest rival is Ireland?...Is This the same Ireland that picked up the Wooden spoon this year.

Turning your attentions to Ireland now you know you can't try ribbing the Welsh, are you Madge. Good luck with that.

England are definitely our biggest rivals in my opinion. Couldn't really give two hoots about a rivalry with the Provinces when we play Ireland (maybe to do with Dragons rivals being Connacht due to the standard of both teams).

majesticimperialman wrote:So Wales win a 6ns tournament. And then say that their biggest rival is Ireland?...Is This the same Ireland that picked up the Wooden spoon this year.

Yup and the same Ireland who were 30-3 points ahead of us after 42 minutes a mere 6 weeks ago!

Wales or anybody's biggest rival should slays be the team you are facing right.here, right now. Otherwise you will f up as we did against samoa and argentina. Though when.looking at the world rankings id be drawn to compare our position against england and yes ireland.

Risca Rev wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:So Wales win a 6ns tournament. And then say that their biggest rival is Ireland?...Is This the same Ireland that picked up the Wooden spoon this year.

Turning your attentions to Ireland now you know you can't try ribbing the Welsh, are you Madge. Good luck with that.

England are definitely our biggest rivals in my opinion. Couldn't really give two hoots about a rivalry with the Provinces when we play Ireland (maybe to do with Dragons rivals being Connacht due to the standard of both teams).

RiscaRev. I have all ways thought that your biggest rival is the very team you are playing against at the time.

It is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Whilst they have the potential to become rivals of the 3N... Wales are not considered rivals of any of the 3N sides.

Why... because rivalry is something when two equally strong forces come together and wins and losses are exchanged.

Wales have beaten SA once in their history and unless you're in your 70s you won't remember the last time Wales beat NZ. 1 win in 23 since 08 against the SH 3N sides does not make you a rival of anyone.

Being the best of the 6N doesn't mean you are automatically rivals of the next best teams.. i.e. AUS & SA.

Its like saying Tsonga in tennis is a rival of the quartet of Djokovic, Nadal, Federer & Murray because he's the next best player.... but given in the majors he never beats these guys he can't be considered a rival because the gulf is in fact pretty large.

Personally I think that Wales have the potential to challenge the 3N sides over the next few years... something I think England and France also can do.... but a 6N title doesn't bring respect from these teams, you have to earn it against them and at the moment, Wales have not done anything to put them on that level.

I hope they can, we need European rugby to be strong.. but at the moment its unproven.