England : Are We Chokers?

A lot is made of English mental fortitude over the years with the claim that we are a "tournament team" who always deliver the best when it matters most.

But, with just one world cup to our names and one 6N grandslam in the professional era, compared to Wales' three and France's three despite having a higher aggregate rating, is the truth that we have become the chokers of world rugby? it seems that way to me.

This England team seemed unstoppable as they mauled world champions NZ and then steam-rolled the opening 4 rounds of the 6 nations.

So how on Earth were we so inept last night? Tuilagi couldn't catch or pass, Ashton couldn't attack or defend, the scrum was destroyed and the lineout was unable to provide anything but rudiementary short ball. And the worst thing of all is how little depth we seemed to have when the bench was emptied and we found the likes of Haskell, Hartley and Armitage coming on - all penalty conceding machines. Add to that, behind the nepotiscally selected Farrell, we drop down to Flood who in my opinion would struggle to get into the Scottish side.

The English media dont help,a couple of wins and they are world class,a couple of defeats and they are labeled clueless chumps.

Yes.

GloriousEmpire wrote:
This England team seemed unstoppable as they mauled world champions NZ and then steam-rolled the opening 4 rounds of the 6 nations.

May want to revisit that somewhat exaggerated statement.

Ok then, apart from a forgivable half hour against Italy with the game well won.

Don't think that game was well won.If Italy got there conversion it would have given them the confidence to win the game.people have been saying not a lot of tries this year,thwts mainly down to them stepping up to the Mark .

sickofwendy wrote:The English media dont help,a couple of wins and they are world class,a couple of defeats and they are labeled clueless chumps.

What do you mean SoW? I thought that the likes of the Guardian's "Stuart Lancaster's selfless England warriors on brink of confirmation" was quite a a low key and rational build up to the game. You don't think so?

Looseheaded wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:
This England team seemed unstoppable as they mauled world champions NZ and then steam-rolled the opening 4 rounds of the 6 nations.

May want to revisit that somewhat exaggerated statement.

You hardly steam-rolled anyone to be honest. I do not think you chokers, you need to realise that you were not as great as you thought.

Wales had a difficult time of things, a new stand-in coach, many injuries and a horrific run of 8 defeats because of this. Despite some Welsh here, I observed the slow regeneration of the Welsh side. I also saw the great connection between the Welsh players, the strength in depth and the desire. It came together on Saturday. We have two more 6 Nations games before the big World Cup clash, Wales have just crushed you and have a 3 - 0 lead.

England are not good enough at present but I am sure they will get stronger, but so will Wales. The next few games will be interesting, it will not be a choke for the losers but victory for the better team.

Your right,I can't argue with cold hard facts like that little gem
Seriously though some of these journos make me want to

I don't think you could call it choking. England have a very good side in the making and although this loss hurts like hell now it will only serve to make them stronger as a unit. Its not the manner of defeat but how you respond to it. England are going to improve and as cocky as we feel right now realistically if that ball had gone to tuilagis hands instead of his head we could easily be talking about a grand slam. Small things in a game add up and had England scored the early try it might have been the other way round.

don't be too hard on them at least you've never had to witness England losing 96-0. And for all the cockiness us Welsh fans put out the fear that it might happen again is always in the back of our minds

76-0 wasn't much fun similar feelings of shock,horror and nausea I would of imagine.

I refer you also to this "gem" http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/mar/15/england-wales-grand-slam

"England must learn from grand slam chokes of the past to win in Wales"

I can't help but think lessons were not learned and this can only be ascribed to a Choke. Wales were there for the taking and grew in confidence only as England slumped to inadequacy, led by Farrel who clearly lost all composure on the day. Don't get me started on Ashton who needs a psychiatrist.

Wow I forgot about that. Was a very good Aussie side though

Who said Ashton needs a Psychiatrist

this should be a quick thread

chokers?

how much more evidence do you need?

Yes.

It's too bad more England fans didn't read this following article. It might have given them a reality check before yesterdays big game.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/9932980/Six-Nations-2013-Heres-why-the-whole-of-Wales-and-Scotland-and-Ireland-want-to-see-England-humiliated.html

Lancaster said before the game that in order to win 2015 players needed the experience of competing in, and winning these kind of defacto finals.

Well on all evidence, and based on Wales performance in distant and difficult NZ in 2011, it will be Wales with the experience and pedigree in 2015. I can see serious changes ahead for us - behind the scrum, in the back row, in the front row, the midfield, the wings, and fullback. Will we have time to become the all-conquering juggernaut prior to 2015 that we were touting ourselves as just two days ago?

Great article Morgannwg. I think a lot of truth exposed there.

Nope, a choker would suggest that you should always win,
the reality is England are just a consistent but average team who like to keep the score close more often than not.

Talking about chokers anyone remember the 90's club scene? i used to find them chokers women wore around that time such a turn on, low cut top large cleavage slim neck with a choker giving me a semi thinking about it.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I refer you also to this "gem" http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/mar/15/england-wales-grand-slam

"England must learn from grand slam chokes of the past to win in Wales"

I can't help but think lessons were not learned and this can only be ascribed to a Choke. Wales were there for the taking and grew in confidence only as England slumped to inadequacy, led by Farrel who clearly lost all composure on the day. Don't get me started on Ashton who needs a psychiatrist.

No Wales were not there for the taking as the scoreline suggests, we were by far the best team and smashed you. You could still be playing now and not scored a try. There are the sad and arrogant comments that makes my blood boil. Remember since we started paying against each other WALES have won more games now. You have never been that good to dominate us, suck it in and realise that fact.

The RFU have more registered refs than Wales do pro players!!!
We are a third tier nation in the world cup ceding,
The last time Wales dominated a game so much was against Namibia RWC2011.

The last time England were dominated like that was France at the wc.
I'm hoping we wont see two performances like that again for another 18 months

I wouldn't say England are a team are 'chokers' as they seem to have a good collective mindset and confidence in their ability.

However they do have players in certain positions who can get rattled on the International stage, but in different ways. Ben Youngs is one, especially in the 2011 Ireland match where he was binned, and Toby Flood in the same match. Then you have the likes of Hartley and Ashton who allow the occasion to cause aggression and moronic actions.

Remember since we started paying against each other WALES have won more games now.

No. It's evens on games won, something like 54 each? Go back to the article link and it will tell you. Inverdale also mentioned it before the match.

viewtothegym wrote:Nope, a choker would suggest that you should always win,
the reality is England are just a consistent but average team who like to keep the score close more often than not.

Talking about chokers anyone remember the 90's club scene? i used to find them chokers women wore around that time such a turn on, low cut top large cleavage slim neck with a choker giving me a semi thinking about it.

A couple of decades out. The choker was around at the time of the maxi skirt. Unless my mind was playing tricks with me back in the 70s.

Ashton needs a Psychiatrist?

Nope - no brain.

only one world cup? Should it have been more?

Hopeless in '87
Pretty good in '91. If they played 10 man rugby in the final might have won. Won't call it a choke. Maybe more of falling for Campo's mindgames
Got Jonahed in '95
Hopeless in '99
Won it in '03
Did bloody good to reach the final in '07. Exceeded all expectations, but the Bok team was too good on the day
Hopeless in '11. Struggled past Argies and the Socks. Didn't deserve to reach the semis.

Can't really see any world cup chokes

except for only 33% success rate in RWC finals...and what is the success rate for GS games? much much less

Don't think we choked, just got beaten by a better team. We didn't lose the game, Wales won it.

Didn't react well to the scrum problems, but tbh I don't know how you can react effectively when you are getting pinged every scrum!

91 would be the only one that has 'choke' characteristics. After making the final England threw the book that contained the blueprint for making the final out the window, succumbed to external pressures from media and critics alike and tried to take on the experts at the running game.

100%beefy wrote:except for only 33% success rate in RWC finals...

success rate means nothing. losing rate when expected to win is a more useful gauge

If you're local over 65s golden oldies side took on the All Blacks 10 times and lost them all they would have a 0% success rate. Does that make them chokers?

dallym wrote:

100%beefy wrote:except for only 33% success rate in RWC finals...

success rate means nothing. losing rate when expected to win is a more useful gauge

If you're local over 65s golden oldies side took on the All Blacks 10 times and lost them all they would have a 0% success rate. Does that make them chokers?

Are you saying you were expected to win on Saturday? Based on what exactly the bookies? who will adjust the odds by the amount of money placed, England bigger place more cash on England. You stuttered through 4 games and on number 5 you were found out big time is all areas of play. You base your argument on zero success.

I was raised in the belief that the English were the arrogant ones but when I read some of the gloating/wumning from some so called Welsh fans, am happy to have changed my mind a while ago

whocares wrote:I was raised in the belief that the English were the arrogant ones but when I read some of the gloating/wumning from some so called Welsh fans, am happy to have changed my mind a while ago

Who cares

Simply put, England slowly got worse throughout the competition and Wales started with dross and really improved!
But I would say England choked on Saturday. We were never favourites to win the game, but we were favourites to win the six nations.
Congrats Welsh fans! That victory must have felt pretty damm amazing.

We didn't "maul" anyone except for Scotland. Our gameplan just went out the window after we lost Morgan and suddenly we had about 4 players out of position. It was too late for SL to change things too much, so we went really defensive with the selection of Barritt & Manu, despite 36 & Barritt being so effective.

We didn't choke, we just weren't as good as Wales.

Choke? No. We got steamrolled and didn't learn from 2 years ago where England have to deal and be prepared for an away game in a hostile environment against a good, motivated team. We need to revise SCW mantra of t-cup...

The Killers have just released a new song, here is the chorus:

Are we England...or are we chokers?
The signs are vital, our boots are tied
And we're on our knees still searching for the answer
Are we England...or are we chokers?

One thing I would mention is the difficulty of winning GS away from home on the last day.... they are very rare.

Since 1990 there have been 20/24 final day 5N/6N where a team(s) could have won the GS. Of those 14 have been converted by a given team.
However on 4 occasions a given match has had both teams going for the GS so in the 24 years there have been 24 teams going for the GS on the final day.

Of the 24 teams an equal split of 12 teams each have been playing at home/away. Whilst those playing at home have converted 11 of the 12 (91% success rate) those converting the GS away from home has been only 3 out of 12 (25% success rate).

Its worth mentioning that since 99, all of England’s 6 GS deciding final day matches have been away from home (with a conversion rate of 17% so slightly less then the average).
If you take out England out of the away losses conversion rate the win ratio is 2 wins out of 6 attempts so ex. ENG the conversion rate is 33%.

Are ENG chokers?? I would say the only matches they choked were the 3 99-01 games. In 99 it was a definite choke with some mindless decisions at the end by ENG to go for a try rather then 3 points when 6 points up near the end of the game.
In 00 it was a bit of a Murrayfield ambush due to the weather and in 01 it wasn't very fair on ENG given they went into the game cold whereas IRE had 2 matches prior against WAL and SCO to warm up (Foot and Mouth).

Otherwise in 90, 11 and 13... they played a team which exposed their weaknesses and the away factor added to this.

I wouldn't say chokers, England were beaten fair and square by a team that wanted it more, and played far better on the day.

Shame that a certain few posters on here aren't being quite as magnanimous as their team. You can bet that if the result was the other way around, they wouldn't been seen on here for a few months.

Agree totally with BSV. England certainly are not chokers; they are a very good team but one who were soundly beaten by a better team on the day. In my opinion, they lack variation with Farrell at SH and need to use Flood to bring the outside backs into the game. Without this, there is a danger of them becoming predictable. Definitely not chokers, though.

Please people, the OP is a Welsh WUM - look at his other posts, it's obvious. My money is on that GloriousEmpire is Morg - don't rise to his pathetic wumming.

England had a very bad day at the office which lets me fair we have had more than our fair share of including a shockingly poor 1st half against Ireland.

I think the occasion did get to them and despite some of our performances of late most of the Welsh starting XV have played in the big games of late.

England have some star players in their set up ones that will be around for along time and will learn from this defeat, players like Cole, Parling, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Manu, 36 thats the corfe I think Lancaster should build around.

I like Lancaster and think he will take England onward and upward, he does need to adjust a few things, needs a proper 8 they sorely missed Morgan, needs to drop Ashton and Brown is not a winger at this level.

Not even the hardest and fervent of Welsh fans predicted that scoreline and whilst on the day England were well and truly beaten they will return.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

dallym wrote:

100%beefy wrote:except for only 33% success rate in RWC finals...

success rate means nothing. losing rate when expected to win is a more useful gauge

If you're local over 65s golden oldies side took on the All Blacks 10 times and lost them all they would have a 0% success rate. Does that make them chokers?

Are you saying you were expected to win on Saturday? Based on what exactly the bookies? who will adjust the odds by the amount of money placed, England bigger place more cash on England. You stuttered through 4 games and on number 5 you were found out big time is all areas of play. You base your argument on zero success.

I'm not a pom.

I do not know about the 6 nations. Why should I care about the minnow's cup? I just focussed on the World Cup and disputed the call that the English are chokers because of their low success rate. The French have lost more finals than the poms so their final success rate is even lower than the poms. Are we therefore to assume they choked against the brilliant '87 ABs or the majestic '99 Wallabies? Or do we use the choking term for teams we don't like?

England were well beaten in ONE game - chokers NO - they have a young developing side, time to move on

Haven't England been a side in development since 2004 though?

Looseheaded wrote:Haven't England been a side in development since 2004 though?

NO - they failed to develop until SL took over

We are not chokers.

But there is deffinently something about certain match ups where an opposition can get up for a fixture more than the other side..

All teams can choke. But its more about the other side tbh.

Wales have choked against aus for sure.

Eng did the same against SA last year in a couple.

Wales this time round won and won well. No choking- if they put half of that drive and determination against the ozzies they would have won one.

Truth is yes england can choke, so can every team as well.

England certainly arnt 'chokers' though.They Just can..

RubyGuby wrote:Who said Ashton needs a Psychiatrist

I see, so its you then Ruby all along.
He's been hypnotised on your couch and you convinced him he will die if he tackles another rugby player, esp one in a red shirt.
I was looking for an explanation, now you've provided it, thanks, .

England didn't choke against Wales. They were comprehensively beaten.

When was the last time Eng would a Grand Slam in Cardiff? I don't think it's happened in the last 50 years certainly, if at all.