England : Are We Chokers?

First topic message reminder :

A lot is made of English mental fortitude over the years with the claim that we are a "tournament team" who always deliver the best when it matters most.

But, with just one world cup to our names and one 6N grandslam in the professional era, compared to Wales' three and France's three despite having a higher aggregate rating, is the truth that we have become the chokers of world rugby? it seems that way to me.

This England team seemed unstoppable as they mauled world champions NZ and then steam-rolled the opening 4 rounds of the 6 nations.

So how on Earth were we so inept last night? Tuilagi couldn't catch or pass, Ashton couldn't attack or defend, the scrum was destroyed and the lineout was unable to provide anything but rudiementary short ball. And the worst thing of all is how little depth we seemed to have when the bench was emptied and we found the likes of Haskell, Hartley and Armitage coming on - all penalty conceding machines. Add to that, behind the nepotiscally selected Farrell, we drop down to Flood who in my opinion would struggle to get into the Scottish side.

whocares wrote:I was raised in the belief that the English were the arrogant ones but when I read some of the gloating/wumning from some so called Welsh fans, am happy to have changed my mind a while ago

Who cares is a good name for you and the attitude of most to what you think. Oh and it sounds like you were raised well to me

As others have posted England did not choke.They came up against a better side and lost.This usually happens in sport.The better team usually wins.

England did not choke, but certain players lost their composure largely down to inexperience, intelligence, or in Ashton's case cowardace. Elements of "composure" can be a learned, unfortunately intelligence is harder to overcome. Manu was clearly thrown (literally on occasion) by the Welsh defences refusal to jump out of his way, and does not have the skill set or intelligence to vary his game. Ashton cuts almost a comical figure when faced by an opponent running at him and this too is a hard thing to change. With Farrell it is a talent thing really, when his kicking goes, well there isn't much left is there. I would be astonished if he is the starting 10 come 2015 when there are players like Burns and Ford to yet fully develop.

The front row are just babies really (early 20's) and the 2nd row similarly have yet to acquire the bulk needed at this level, but are likely to do so given their age. Many of the others were inhibited by being played out of position. So no they did not choke, as others have said this game came a bit too soon for them. The pool game in the WC (provided others are discovered to plug obvious weaknesses) will be some game. Wales too are a young side and in 2015 both sides should be at their peak.

And that important game will be at twickers

However the 6nations game before it that year will be a cardiff. that will be very interesting

mystiroakey wrote:We are not chokers.

But there is deffinently something about certain match ups where an opposition can get up for a fixture more than the other side..

All teams can choke. But its more about the other side tbh.

Wales have choked against aus for sure.

Eng did the same against SA last year in a couple.

Wales this time round won and won well. No choking- if they put half of that drive and determination against the ozzies they would have won one.

Truth is yes england can choke, so can every team as well.

England certainly arnt 'chokers' though.They Just can..

problem horsey?

mystiroakey wrote:And that important game will be at twickers

However the 6nations game before it that year will be a cardiff. that will be very interesting

like last years first triple crown victory for wales at twickenham....where england failed to score a try again...that's no tries in 2 games

How much more evidence of choking do you need...in 2011 England went to Dublin last game on a Slam and were soundly beaten 24-8...in 2013 England went to Cardiff final game on a Slam and were thrashed 30-3!

And that is just the recent years....want to go back to the turn of the century? 3 more occassions when England let the hype get to them at Slam time. Failed under pressure in the last game i.e. choked.

Its been 10 years since England won a Slam and they have now only won the 6 Nations once since 2005 during which time Wales have won it 4 times with 3 Slams....the Welsh side will come to Twickenham for RWC with a vastly more experienced side and no fears about England or Twickeham.

We just got beat by the better side on the day pal.(30-3)- I can accept this

thats all. Choking is when you have the upper hand but fail to convert in game. I have mentioned when i have felt that is the case. Eng v SA end of last year. Wales v Oz on more times i can mention.

As I said none of our teams are chokers, however all teams can choke- and especially against certian oppostion..

So using the thread as a straw poll, it appears most people believe we did choke.

Choking is not definitive as strokey oakey thinks, it i snot just losing a lead, it is more than that, it is folding under pressure when the hubris has overtaken the performance and England are masters of it...pehaps the thread should be Are England Grand Slam chokers? If so we can be definitive, a resounding YES!

I would allways put that down to bad preparation.

You see pigeon holing teams is usless unless you can learn from the mistakes.

they are two different problems..

Preparing for the Wales game as if it was the NZ game was 1 mistake As I stated last week - Against NZ there was little pressure on them, psychologically it was a win win, a brave defeat and people say well played, psychologically this freed them up. Versus Wales there were a different set of expectations and BOTH teams had huge pressure on them. England appeared mentally unprepared for this and they seemed genuinely shocked and unable to cope. Whilst people talk about them learning from this experience it may also damage the confidence of a lot of them in the future, particularly players like Marler.

"England appeared mentally unprepared for this and they seemed genuinely shocked and unable to cope."

This is true. Its so annoying because we did turn the tables on the french..

Anyway. The England choking message devalues the welsh performance tbh.

Being mentally prepared for a game holds as much value as the quality of the team..

The English coaches seem to always struggle to cope with a win.

As soon as we win a game or two then a fear of losing mentality creeps in and we suddenly start selecting and playing to not lose rather then build on our wins, which is idiotic as if we just carry on with the formula that got us to that position in the first place then we'd be far better placed.