Centre problems for the Lions

First topic message reminder :

Does anyone see any glimmer of hope for the lions in their possible centre pairings?
Looking back on the Wales v. England game the best piece of centre play was the run, dummy and offload by Tipuric for Cuthbert's 2nd try.
Who does anyone realistically see as the 1st choice pairing?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

While we're on the subject I would love to see a lions centre pairing of Jenkins and Gray!!!!

We've got Bath available on AP game Blue, mustard squad

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You obviously dislike him Maes, I'm not going to change your opinion. He's a special player imo.

No I really rate him, just not as a centre. Thought that was very clear.

I can't see how you rate him as a winger when he is clearly not quick enough, nowhere near agile enough and has never played wing for club or country outside his very fresh beginings at Leicester!!!

If he was playing for Samoa he would be on the wing or used as an impact 12 off the bench. Manu is a bit inconsistent for me and would be a better player for England on the wing.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

No it isn't at all like saying that.

I think Manu has all the attributes playing as a centre to be a very good winger. Same as Gatland saw that Jamie Roberts didn't have the pace for Fullback/Wing and moved him, successfully to centre.

We'll have to agree to disagree Maes, why move a world class centre to wing??

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

No it isn't at all like saying that.

I think Manu has all the attributes playing as a centre to be a very good winger. Same as Gatland saw that Jamie Roberts didn't have the pace for Fullback/Wing and moved him, successfully to centre.

Maes

What attributes do you determine Tuilagi to have to allow him to excel on the wing?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree Maes, why move a world class centre to wing??

I wouldn't, in my mind Tuilagi is most definitely not a world class centre. A world class centre wouldn't have butchered a try in the opening five minutes of a Grand Slam finale, I can't remember O'Driscoll or Conrad Smith doing that, can you?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

No it isn't at all like saying that.

I think Manu has all the attributes playing as a centre to be a very good winger. Same as Gatland saw that Jamie Roberts didn't have the pace for Fullback/Wing and moved him, successfully to centre.

Maes

What attributes do you determine Tuilagi to have to allow him to excel on the wing?

Self confidence, pace, strength and a hunger for the try line.

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

No it isn't at all like saying that.

I think Manu has all the attributes playing as a centre to be a very good winger. Same as Gatland saw that Jamie Roberts didn't have the pace for Fullback/Wing and moved him, successfully to centre.

Maes

What attributes do you determine Tuilagi to have to allow him to excel on the wing?

Self confidence, pace, strength and a hunger for the try line.

I'll give you 3 of the 4, but pace He's pretty hefty and struggles to get going.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

No it isn't at all like saying that.

I think Manu has all the attributes playing as a centre to be a very good winger. Same as Gatland saw that Jamie Roberts didn't have the pace for Fullback/Wing and moved him, successfully to centre.

Maes

What attributes do you determine Tuilagi to have to allow him to excel on the wing?

Self confidence, pace, strength and a hunger for the try line.

I'll give you 3 of the 4, but pace He's pretty hefty and struggles to get going.

I thought he looked very quick last year vs Wales at Twickers, and for that try against France. His strength will make up for any lack of pace he has. He is quick enough.

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

No it isn't at all like saying that.

I think Manu has all the attributes playing as a centre to be a very good winger. Same as Gatland saw that Jamie Roberts didn't have the pace for Fullback/Wing and moved him, successfully to centre.

Maes

What attributes do you determine Tuilagi to have to allow him to excel on the wing?

Self confidence, pace, strength and a hunger for the try line.

I'll give you 3 of the 4, but pace He's pretty hefty and struggles to get going.

I thought he looked very quick last year vs Wales at Twickers, and for that try against France. His strength will make up for any lack of pace he has. He is quick enough.

He does turn like an oil tanker too, the test would be seeing Cuthbert, Visser, Ioane chip 50 yards behind him and watch a footrace... That'd be pretty tough viewing I think.

But that said I was partly wrong about him to begin with, so for arguments sake I wouldn't mind seeing if he could play wing.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand how you can rate him but not as a centre, he's only ever played centre.

It's like me saying I rate Adam Jones but not at prop

In all fairness I would love to see Jones at 13 or FB!!!

No it isn't at all like saying that.

I think Manu has all the attributes playing as a centre to be a very good winger. Same as Gatland saw that Jamie Roberts didn't have the pace for Fullback/Wing and moved him, successfully to centre.

Maes

What attributes do you determine Tuilagi to have to allow him to excel on the wing?

Self confidence, pace, strength and a hunger for the try line.

I'll give you 3 of the 4, but pace He's pretty hefty and struggles to get going.

I thought he looked very quick last year vs Wales at Twickers, and for that try against France. His strength will make up for any lack of pace he has. He is quick enough.

He does turn like an oil tanker too, the test would be seeing Cuthbert, Visser, Ioane chip 50 yards behind him and watch a footrace... That'd be pretty tough viewing I think.

But that said I was partly wrong about him to begin with, so for arguments sake I wouldn't mind seeing if he could play wing.

I think Gatland has a good eye for moving players and selecting them in the right place. I don't care who's in or where they play as long as we win.

maestegmafia wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree Maes, why move a world class centre to wing??

I wouldn't, in my mind Tuilagi is most definitely not a world class centre. A world class centre wouldn't have butchered a try in the opening five minutes of a Grand Slam finale, I can't remember O'Driscoll or Conrad Smith doing that, can you?

Can I imagine a 21yo Smith or BOD making a mistake in high pressure match....yes I could.

He's 21! He's has some outstanding attributes that put him in the top bracket but he scarily he can and will get better.

Once he starts getting a bit more awareness he'll be even more of a threat, remember he's 21.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree Maes, why move a world class centre to wing??

I wouldn't, in my mind Tuilagi is most definitely not a world class centre. A world class centre wouldn't have butchered a try in the opening five minutes of a Grand Slam finale, I can't remember O'Driscoll or Conrad Smith doing that, can you?

Can I imagine a 21yo Smith or BOD making a mistake in high pressure match....yes I could.

He's 21! He's has some outstanding attributes that put him in the top bracket but he scarily he can and will get better.

Once he starts getting a bit more awareness he'll be even more of a threat, remember he's 21.

BOD Scored a hat-trick on his six nations debut in Paris and kind of went onwards and upwards from there Player of the tournament three times.

Here is smiths debut, he was exceptional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPKSH73xCwk

Those lads are World class centres Tuilagi is not.

I can show you clips of Tuilagi destroying Smith also, is Smith not world class now?

Tuilagi makes mistakes as does any young player, he is top draw and will 100% travel with the lions as a centre.

Tuilagi is a distinctly limited player. Not fit to lace BODs shoes. Its only 'cos of the dearth of decent centres in England he is considered so good

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can show you clips of Tuilagi destroying Smith also, is Smith not world class now?

Tuilagi makes mistakes as does any young player, he is top draw and will 100% travel with the lions as a centre.

He has already gone from World Class to top draw in your opinion on this thread.

Please show me some clips of Tuilagi "DESTROYING" Conrad Smith, who I am pretty sure everyone would agree is still a world class player.

If you are searching for clips of when the remains of Britain's infamous stomach bug had kept Smith and his Kiwi team mates in bed all week then I don't think anyone will take you seriously.

Tuilagi is world class.

I'll agree to disagree, we obviously watch different sports.

Lets see who Gatland takes on the plane eh

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tuilagi is world class.

I'll agree to disagree, we obviously watch different sports.

Lets see who Gatland takes on the plane eh

I haven't said he wont or that he shouldn't go.

I'm saying if I were choosing I'd take him as a winger and that I do not think he is a world class centre. To be frank he is not even one of the top centres in the northern hemisphere. He has good days and bad.

In my opinion he and we, Lions supporters one and all, would all have a lot more good days if he was on the wing.



No where are your clips of Tuilagi destroying Conrad Smith?

Type Tuilagi in YouTube or watch Eng v NZ.

He doesn't play wing, he's a centre and he'll rightly travel as a centre. It's a pointless debate as your opinion means little as he won't play wing.

I think Phillips would make a better 6 than 9 but it won't happen.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Type Tuilagi in YouTube or watch Eng v NZ.

He doesn't play wing, he's a centre and he'll rightly travel as a centre. It's a pointless debate as your opinion means little as he won't play wing.

I think Phillips would make a better 6 than 9 but it won't happen.

Pooly we have seen such mixed performances from Tuilagi that he may well be another Matt Banahan or Barry John Mather type player.

He is inconsistent, he will likely make the tour but I don't expect him to displace better centres without either improving his ability to play others into the game.

His plus points are very apparent, but his negatives are more apparent each big game.

Tuilagi on his day offers something completely different to any other centre in the NH. I think against Wales he had a real off day and looked a shadow of what he is capable on his day. Roberts on the other hand was superb and it was nice to see him actually throw a pass for once, one set up North for his run and the second sent Tips on his way I do believe? He also defender superbly and if he can continue that form through till the Lions then he would start for me. Lions experience counts for allot also.

Then you have JD who played well against England like many, seemed to regain some form after his dreadful start at the beginning of the campaign. He was my starting 13 before the 6N now i'm not so sure. We'll have to see in the warm up games.

BOD has been hot and cold and is past his best but again Lions experience and if he could reignite that partnership with Roberts the Lions are onto a real winner. I wouldn't personally start him but for experience he will tour.

I think i'd go with 12. Roberts 13. Tuilagi but this could change in the warm up games like many other selections can.

Liam - I don't think Tuilagi had an off day against Wales he was just well shackled and the defenders did their job well. I appreciate his game awareness and distribution was poor that day though. He needs space to be destructive and that's why I would play him alongside BOD who can create that sort of space for him. I can even see Gatland playing North and BOD together in the centre, how do you think the aussies would like that

Why do people keep taking about playing people out of position. Tuilagi is a centre, North is a wing, SOB is a flanker not an 8 as I keep reading on other posts, if they travel which they should its because of the job they do in their position not for another position

welshboii15 wrote:Why do people keep taking about playing people out of position. Tuilagi is a centre, North is a wing, SOB is a flanker not an 8 as I keep reading on other posts, if they travel which they should its because of the job they do in their position not for another position

If you stuck by that rule, Jamie Roberts is a Fullback and Tom Youngs a centre.

Some players are picked in a position for their country or club out of either necessity or naivety. Tuilagi has only one attribute suited to being a centre, and thats strength. He only works if he has a good player next to him making the gaps and the mismatches. The making the gaps and mismatches is what centres are meant to be doing.

Tuilagi looking terrible at centre today.......

welshboii15 wrote:Why do people keep taking about playing people out of position. Tuilagi is a centre, North is a wing, SOB is a flanker not an 8 as I keep reading on other posts, if they travel which they should its because of the job they do in their position not for another position

So you won't play Warburton and Tups together then as they both are openside flankers

More terrible centre play by Tuilagi

BamBam wrote:More terrible centre play by Tuilagi

So bad, such a poor centre lol

Scored two wingers tries... I watched the game earlier.

They weren't winger tries, he played centre.

Caused havoc in the Saints back all day, cracking CENTRE performance.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:They weren't winger tries, he played centre.

Caused havoc in the Saints back all day, cracking CENTRE performance.

Why was it a cracking centre performance in your opinion?

Risca Rev wrote:I think Gatland will be licking his lips at the potential for Roberts and BOD linking up so well again.

which is exactly the sam mistake SCW made thinking RWC 2003 players ould perform in 2005. Neither Roberts or BOD, but particularly BOD, are in form.

100%beefy wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I think Gatland will be licking his lips at the potential for Roberts and BOD linking up so well again.

which is exactly the sam mistake SCW made thinking RWC 2003 players ould perform in 2005. Neither Roberts or BOD, but particularly BOD, are in form.

Roberts was looking pretty handy in the last two games. Fantastic in defence but he threw his weight about a bit in attack too.

Bod again was sublime in the Wales match, though I think injury forced his hand in the remaining fixtures. We need an outside centre that can create tries like the one BOD did for Zebo.

maestegmafia wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I think Gatland will be licking his lips at the potential for Roberts and BOD linking up so well again.

which is exactly the sam mistake SCW made thinking RWC 2003 players ould perform in 2005. Neither Roberts or BOD, but particularly BOD, are in form.

Roberts was looking pretty handy in the last two games. Fantastic in defence but he threw his weight about a bit in attack too.

Bod again was sublime in the Wales match, though I think injury forced his hand in the remaining fixtures. We need an outside centre that can create tries like the one BOD did for Zebo.

Get away with throwing a forward pass you mean?

Seriously, BOD was outstanding against Wales but faded badly as the 6N went on, to the extent that he looked a long was past his best. One season too far?

Seagultaf wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I think Gatland will be licking his lips at the potential for Roberts and BOD linking up so well again.

which is exactly the sam mistake SCW made thinking RWC 2003 players ould perform in 2005. Neither Roberts or BOD, but particularly BOD, are in form.

Roberts was looking pretty handy in the last two games. Fantastic in defence but he threw his weight about a bit in attack too.

Bod again was sublime in the Wales match, though I think injury forced his hand in the remaining fixtures. We need an outside centre that can create tries like the one BOD did for Zebo.

Get away with throwing a forward pass you mean?

Seriously, BOD was outstanding against Wales but faded badly as the 6N went on, to the extent that he looked a long was past his best. One season too far?

Well he has a few weeks to recover from injuries and make the play offs. He showed enough to prove he is still a class act. Wouldl be a great Captain too.

look BOD at his best is a game changing legend and one of the few tourists that the aussies will respect, but we cannot, absolutely cannot, build our attack around his creaking frame, we need a general in midfield who will stay the course and we just do not have one. In the NH such players are few and far between, I mean Guscot and Carling were probably the best pair england have had in modern rugby and only greenwood looked like being a player who could fill those shoes. BOD of course 4 years ago but not now and neither wales or anyon else have a natural, JD2 perhaps but even he is a finisher not a creator....Manu creates through route 1 so i really think he might figure but it all relies on very very quick ball. This tour will have to almost circumvent midfield, using such quick ball on the front foot we can get the back 3 into play.

Judging BOD on this 6 Nations in a poor Irish team is laughable. I'd like to judge him on the previous 10 years. For me he should be Captain and 1 of the test centres. He is the one that can create space for those outside him as he has the guile and skill to do this unlike the other boshers

RubyGuby wrote:Judging BOD on this 6 Nations in a poor Irish team is laughable. I'd like to judge him on the previous 10 years. For me he should be Captain and 1 of the test centres. He is the one that can create space for those outside him as he has the guile and skill to do this unlike the other boshers

If you are judging players on their last 10 years then outside half is between Steve Jones and Wilkinson, Shane Williams must tour, etc etc.

The fact is he is 34 years of age, and his biggest asset (pace) is fading fast. He was player of the Championship 3 times, but the last time was 4 years ago. He played a stormer against Wales, but lets be honest for 50mins Wales were woeful! The Lions captain must be first choice in his position and with three outstanding centres ahead of him and a number of others looking good also, BOD will be struggling to tour.

RubyGuby wrote:Judging BOD on this 6 Nations in a poor Irish team is laughable. I'd like to judge him on the previous 10 years. For me he should be Captain and 1 of the test centres. He is the one that can create space for those outside him as he has the guile and skill to do this unlike the other boshers

it's laughable to include a player who is in poor form and has fitness questions just because he used to be good once

100%beefy wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Judging BOD on this 6 Nations in a poor Irish team is laughable. I'd like to judge him on the previous 10 years. For me he should be Captain and 1 of the test centres. He is the one that can create space for those outside him as he has the guile and skill to do this unlike the other boshers

it's laughable to include a player who is in poor form and has fitness questions just because he used to be good once

Maybe thats different in this case, he wasn't just good once, he was one of the best ever. And he showed enough of that this six nations and previously for Leinster to be seriously considered. Especially for his leadership qualities and experience.

He is the man to turn to when your chips are down.

I don't think there was any centre in the 6N who was much better than BOD in fairness.

He was superb against Wales, decent against France and Italy, was quiet against England and Scotland but considering the incompetence of Ireland and a couple of knocks he picked up, he hardly had that bad a tournament.

the fact is there is a paucity of talent at 12/13 and very little creativity or we wouldn't even be considering an out of form BOD...true no 6 nations centre did much of note and i fBOD suddenly fnds form then all well and good, but to pick him because he is a class player who is now past his best is a huge sign that we are buggered before we even begin.

100%beefy wrote:the fact is there is a paucity of talent at 12/13 and very little creativity or we wouldn't even be considering an out of form BOD...true no 6 nations centre did much of note and i fBOD suddenly fnds form then all well and good, but to pick him because he is a class player who is now past his best is a huge sign that we are buggered before we even begin.

Matt Scott had a good series showed a bit of real class. Because he is a scot and new to the scene he is disregarded tho. Few outside backs did anything much in the 6N tho for sure.

I think Matt Scott is very average personally.

I'd put Scott on par with Marshall, Williams and 12trees personally.

Roberts, Davies and Tuilagi have to travel, but another is beyond me. BOD has been squeezing the last ounces of athleticism out of his self for 12 months now!!

I think the likes of Hook and Armitage might be considered as centre options because of our lack, and if Sextons not fit we have little creativity at 10 either meaning Hook has to travel!!!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Matt Scott is very average personally.

My point made
2nd in the stats for centres in the six nations IIRC. A very good player but a newb.

Stats can be misleading, one clean break can make up for 4 poor performances.

I've seen quite a bit of Scott this 6N and last, similar for Edinburgh where he's been very poor.

I'm not a fan, I'd have him well down the pecking list for 12's and certainly not a Lions candidate.

You clearly haven't been watching the same games then or the same player. He was clearly one of the best ( of a poor bunch) of centres this six nations. Making good yards consistently, making a lot of tackles and missing very few, good hands. A top player in the making. IIRC he played one match as a sub in 2012 6N