Ewen McKenzie touted as next Ireland coach.

First topic message reminder :

Well more than touted as apparently a senior IRFU official has said that he will be the next Ireland coach.

He won the World Cup in 1991 as a prop playing for Australia. He is currently the main man at Queensland Reds but it is believed that he has no chance of coaching Australia after Robbie Deans on the basis that an ARU board member said....

"As long as my backside is pointing to the ground, Ewen McKenzie will not coach Australia. You cannot have a front-row forward in charge of the Wallabies because they know nothing about backline play."

So he's been told he can't coach Australia on account of being a prop, but his goal is to become an international test level coach, which is where the vacant Ireland head coach role comes in.

What do Ireland fans think if this appointment came to be?

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/178989.html

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:The Ireland pack did alright in the 6 nations. Looking at the stats they had plenty of possession and territory. Like fly I think the problem is with the attack.

Ireland need a more holistic approach to the attack like the provinces have. Forwards and backs need to combine more (begin to combine would be more accurate) and be on the same wavelength. Thats where Les Kiss comes up short.

The Holy Grail. The Holy Grail

That's where Ireland is falling down. There is too much compartmentalisation. The backs wait in a boring obvious string waiting for a line break to be made somewhere and it seldom appears. Why? Because our forwards are coached to take up ball and run headlong into trouble and recycle...repeat as desired. Our forwards are eternally followed by the proverbial flock of birds circling around their heads. Give them a plan to avoid unecessary collisions, give them a plan to evade and to become part of an attacking platform with the backs. It's too much rugby by ancient numbers right now... it's survival rugby when the creators know time is running out.

I don't recall seeing either Sean O'Brien or Stephen Ferris running any other way than headway for their clubs. Heislip has a bit of a step though (as those POM).

The standout offloaders for Leinster over the years have been Hines, Thorn & Nacewa. Interesting that they all have come from the SH.

Actually Ferris is one of the few guys who does offload the ball out of contact for Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:The Ireland pack did alright in the 6 nations. Looking at the stats they had plenty of possession and territory. Like fly I think the problem is with the attack.

Ireland need a more holistic approach to the attack like the provinces have. Forwards and backs need to combine more (begin to combine would be more accurate) and be on the same wavelength. Thats where Les Kiss comes up short.

The Holy Grail. The Holy Grail

That's where Ireland is falling down. There is too much compartmentalisation. The backs wait in a boring obvious string waiting for a line break to be made somewhere and it seldom appears. Why? Because our forwards are coached to take up ball and run headlong into trouble and recycle...repeat as desired. Our forwards are eternally followed by the proverbial flock of birds circling around their heads. Give them a plan to avoid unecessary collisions, give them a plan to evade and to become part of an attacking platform with the backs. It's too much rugby by ancient numbers right now... it's survival rugby when the creators know time is running out.

I don't recall seeing either Sean O'Brien or Stephen Ferris running any other way than headway for their clubs. Heislip has a bit of a step though (as those POM).

The standout offloaders for Leinster over the years have been Hines, Thorn & Nacewa. Interesting that they all have come from the SH.

Rubbish. Drico has a great offload as did Hogan.

Sin é wrote:
The standout offloaders for Leinster over the years have been Hines, Thorn & Nacewa. Interesting that they all have come from the SH.

Good shout sin...we should pick Tom Court, Isaac Boss, Robbie Diack and Marcus Bent .

Guns - BOD had 2 offloads in the 6Ns.

Hines would have 3 or 4 a game for Leinster.

Do you not think that would come down to a difference in how Ireland play and Leinster play?

To offload there needs to be a man on your shoulder, which means people running good support lines, and you need to get the ball in the first place! So a comparison between a lock playing Pro12/HC and a centre playing test rugby in teams with different game plans is rather moot.

Notch wrote:Do you not think that would come down to a difference in how Ireland play and Leinster play?

To offload there needs to be a man on your shoulder, which means people running good support lines, and you need to get the ball in the first place! So a comparison between a lock playing Pro12/HC and a centre playing test rugby in teams with different game plans is rather moot.

Guns derailed my point a bit by mentioning BOD.

The difference between Leinster's play was that they had Hines & Thorn (forwards who could bash it up the middle) and offload in contact.

Billy Holland & Denis Hurley have great offloads at Munster, but they lack other things. DOC has started doing it a bit with Munster.

See, thats the thing- you can't make your facts fit the point!

Your point isn't even changed by the fact BOD can offload, really. It's still pretty much correct. Except the offloaders in Leinster aren't limited to one or two players. They generally coach it and there's plenty of Irish lads offloading the ball. Sure, the likes of Thorn were good at it...

My problem with Ireland is we don't look for the offload. Ever. Just take it into contact which, when we aren't getting the ball recycled quickly or winning the collisions, is a bit pointless.

This is a Gert Smal thing as much as a Kidney thing. Smal and Feek have been disappointing in what they have brought to the table for me, albeit our forwards have admittedly lacked quality of late.

I've just checked the Clermont v Leinster semi final which had all the top offloaders in it. This is the way the offloads went (lots of 1 offloads from Clermont which I've not included).

Rougerie: 5
Malzieu: 2
Hines: 4
Buttin: 3
(Clermont 21)

O'Driscoll:2
Kearney: 1
Sexton: 1
Boss: 1
Healy: 1
(Leinster 6 offloads)

You can't argue with a stat like 21 Clermont, Leinster 6.

In the Final: Leinster 8, Ulster 9 offloads.

Some random matches:
Gloucester 16; Toulouse 10.
Clermont 12; Ulster 7. (Wanneberg had 3).

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:The Ireland pack did alright in the 6 nations. Looking at the stats they had plenty of possession and territory. Like fly I think the problem is with the attack.

Ireland need a more holistic approach to the attack like the provinces have. Forwards and backs need to combine more (begin to combine would be more accurate) and be on the same wavelength. Thats where Les Kiss comes up short.

The Holy Grail. The Holy Grail

That's where Ireland is falling down. There is too much compartmentalisation. The backs wait in a boring obvious string waiting for a line break to be made somewhere and it seldom appears. Why? Because our forwards are coached to take up ball and run headlong into trouble and recycle...repeat as desired. Our forwards are eternally followed by the proverbial flock of birds circling around their heads. Give them a plan to avoid unecessary collisions, give them a plan to evade and to become part of an attacking platform with the backs. It's too much rugby by ancient numbers right now... it's survival rugby when the creators know time is running out.

I don't recall seeing either Sean O'Brien or Stephen Ferris running any other way than headway for their clubs. Heislip has a bit of a step though (as those POM).

The standout offloaders for Leinster over the years have been Hines, Thorn & Nacewa. Interesting that they all have come from the SH.

Rubbish. Drico has a great offload as did Hogan.

Healy.Strauss and Boss are also all very good at offloading,Dave Kearney looks like he can use it at the right times too.

Sin é wrote:You can't argue with a stat like 21 Clermont, Leinster 6.

Yes you can. That was a game in which Clermont had the majority of the possession and the attacking ball for huge portions of the match. Leinster had to play on the backfoot for nearly the whole game. What possession they got was put under tremendous pressure.

There's a reason why statistics are only useful for wide data sets. No point in looking at individual matches if you want to see a trend- say it happens to be raining that day, or no possession to attack from, leads to skewed stats re. offloading. Need to analyse seasons worth of data.

I don't understand the relevance of this anymore though, kind of off-topic.

Well the stats do show that in that one game Bod made the same amount of offloads for Leinster as he did in all 5 matches for Ireland. It's all down to tactics

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:You can't argue with a stat like 21 Clermont, Leinster 6.

Yes you can. That was a game in which Clermont had the majority of the possession and the attacking ball for huge portions of the match. Leinster had to play on the backfoot for nearly the whole game. What possession they got was put under tremendous pressure.

There's a reason why statistics are only useful for wide data sets. No point in looking at individual matches if you want to see a trend- say it happens to be raining that day, or no possession to attack from, leads to skewed stats re. offloading. Need to analyse seasons worth of data.

I don't understand the relevance of this anymore though, kind of off-topic.

The possession was 55% Clermont. 45% Leinster. Not 15 offloads difference there.

For the Leinster v Ulster final:
Possession: 49% Leinster. 51% Ulster.
Offloads: Leinster 8. Ulster 9.

The relevance to the topic is that apparently Ireland doesn't have an offloading game like Leinsters. Seems to me to be pretty similar.

Forget everything I said Sin, Ireland are just fine. We moaners overdo the faults....and that's all our fault.

How many times have we been 8th, 7th or now 9th in the professional age? That's all bad criticism that does that in recent years, not bad playing and coaching. Correct.

606V2 bad criticisms have ruined Ireland's reputation in the world. And I for one am shamed for my part in that.

No need to feel sorry for yourself Fly. You have diagnosed lots of Ireland problems, but you have apportioned the blame incorrectly and are a bit deluded if you think Leinster have a great offloading (in the tackle) game. They might have - but their best proponents of the art have all have left (or are leaving) Leinster.

The way things are looking at Leinster at the moment, they need Joe Schmidt more than Ireland does.

Leinster always have a lull in the fireworks stuff.... they weren't all that bright in the fancy dan stuff under Cheika either, but he got them a HC all the same.

You never know, they might feel they want to change back to a more blunderbuss style for the next season or two as they wait for another streak-of-lightening coach to come and re-energise the arty stuff.

Sin, you do a good job of defending a certain way and certain personel (coaches or players) but I have absolutely no doubt that you yourself know what Ireland needs to be a much more competitive force in International, and that you know what you'd like to see when watching them play. You're Irish. A proud one. You don't want humiliation, you want pomp and circumstance, and Zebo and Earls (and maybe one or two Leinster men and Ulster men too!!!), running at sides and bamboozling them, chasing after games...and most important of all...not taking the foot off the gas when capable of keeping the foot on it. Aggressive, attacking Ireland is what you'd like to see too.

So, despite the differences of attitudes to how that happens, you're in the same club as us.

The front runner as I see it is Les Kiss. No self respecting international coach is going to take a job which entails implementing a game plan dictated to him by the IRFU (amateur era dinosaur committee). As it stands they influence team tactics and selection way too much. I see Les Kiss being offered the job and his staff selected for him by these ****ing idiots.
Ireland will continue to loll around the doldrums of international rugby until these guys are replaced by forward thinking individuals who understand the make-up and responsibilities of a proper union.

God help us all.

Mckenzie is 1/4 too get the job

Nathan's Hind wrote:The front runner as I see it is Les Kiss. No self respecting international coach is going to take a job which entails implementing a game plan dictated to him by the IRFU (amateur era dinosaur committee). As it stands they influence team tactics and selection way too much. I see Les Kiss being offered the job and his staff selected for him by these ****ing idiots.

I'd say Kiss will be the caretaker coach to NA, while the IRFU deliberate...

I can see the headlines if Les gets the post

"Ireland get Kiss of Death"

The Great Aukster wrote:

Nathan's Hind wrote:The front runner as I see it is Les Kiss. No self respecting international coach is going to take a job which entails implementing a game plan dictated to him by the IRFU (amateur era dinosaur committee). As it stands they influence team tactics and selection way too much. I see Les Kiss being offered the job and his staff selected for him by these ****ing idiots.

I'd say Kiss will be the caretaker coach to NA, while the IRFU deliberate...

I would imagine that is true or else Bradly. The IRFU love Bradley.

He married well, did Michael Bradley. But his father-in-law is no longer President of the IRFU, however well connected he still is (IRB position now isn't it?), so we may dodge that particular bullet.

The IRFU only use Michael as a decoy.

They already have him told to wait by the phone as something big is about to happen. Either Leinster or the Ireland International job is up for grabs.

In about a month he'll get the call he was waiting on: "Same as usual Michael. You don't qualify for either job and you really shouldn't waste your time sitting by a phone. We'll be on to you again if something else comes up"

SF - do you think there's a Sky1 mini series to be written in the right hands, or does it need to have a happy ending?

Oh if Sky want a mini series from it, I'll do the writing myself!!!! (I'm not adverse to a big paycheck) and as I have an inside line on the whole story because Gerry Thornl............................ as I have an inside contact at IRFU........

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28869.php

Les Kiss for the Summer tour.

Kidney gone!

Golden wrote:http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28869.php

Les Kiss for the Summer tour.

Kidney gone!

Is he though?? thats the IRFU official statement but the kidney clock is still on!

http://kidneyclock.net/

Kidneys gone

Miss him already Its a brave new world out there!

Go easy on the s Golden. There are still three amigos left and Kidney didn't DO the coaching, we're told.....................

I'm not happy yet. I'm reserving judgement.

Interim coach seems to be half a step from getting the top job.. So I am pretty worried that hammering Canada will mean we have two more years of Kiss..

wolfball wrote:Interim coach seems to be half a step from getting the top job.. So I am pretty worried that hammering Canada will mean we have two more years of Kiss..

Exactly. Beating USA and Canada should be expected of Ireland. But, if they do put in a good performance, will that be seen as an audition passed by the interim crew?

I don't think it should be. I never said Kidney deserves all the blame. He had coaches with him (advising and giving their ten cents worth) and the bad issues that Ireland kept repeating ...kept repeating themselves.

So although I wouldn't point a finger at Kiss directly, he has questions to answer too - as do the others. The process of trying to find an alternative should be a genuine one. Everyone should be asked to explain their philosophy of how they want Ireland to play and how they see themselves as being the coach to get it done. Kiss will have to explain away some of past he was involved in before he has an opportunity to say how it would all change in the future.

The IRFU would be dull to consider North America a telling trial for appointing a full-time coach. If I were them I'd wait out the AI's before deciding whether to keep Kiss or not.

Les Kiss and Gert Smal.

Sounds like a proposition in Dutch.

George Carlin wrote:Les Kiss and Gert Smal.

Sounds like a proposition in Dutch.

We told you lot we were trouble years ago. Now maybe you're starting to believe we were right all along! No proper Rugby Nation can have a Smal Kidney Kiss coaching ticket and expect to be taken seriously

McKenzie 1/2 favourite to get the job.

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/rugby-union/rugby-specials?ev_oc_grp_ids=1192515

Schmidt is still being very coy. He's not killing the talk but keeps saying he's worried enough right now about Leinster to be worrying about all the Ireland talk. He sat stone faced on Isa leaving too...said he'd known it for quite a while before it was announced.

I tend to think his attitude seems to suggest he's still being talked to intensely behind the scenes. If not main coach, perhaps backs/attack. He's certainly had things thrown at him which seems to have put his certain intention to go back home next year put on hold at least.