Aviva Premiership - Round 18

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Round 18

Fri 22nd Mar 13
20:00 Sale Sharks v Bath Rugby Salford City Stadium Preview

Sat 23rd Mar 13
15:00 Gloucester Rugby v London Welsh Kingsholm Preview
15:00 London Irish v Worcester Warriors Madejski Stadium Preview
15:15 London Wasps v Northampton Saints Adams Park Sky Preview
17:00 Exeter Chiefs v Leicester Tigers Sandy Park ESPN Preview

Sun 24th Mar 13
14:00 Saracens v Harlequins Allianz Park ESPN Preview



Table

1 Saracens 59
2 Harlequins 55
3 Leicester 54
4 Northampton 49
5 Gloucester 46
6 London Wasps 46
7 Bath 42
8 Exeter 41
9 Worcester 32
10 London Irish 24
11 Sale 19
12 London Welsh 17


As we enter the run in to the season, Harlequins victory over Sale in the LV cup means that 6th place will still earn an HEC spot. Strong representation in the HEC and Amlin 1/4 Finals means there is a chance that 7th place could be good enough. Round 18 brings an intriguing set of clashes affecting Play-Off spots, European places and even the relegation battle.

Victory for Sale over a Bath team that would have been disappointed by the manner of their loss to Quins A in the LV makes life very difficult for London Welsh at the bottom - even if they do get their points deduction over-turned. Bath will be hurting though and are certainly not pushovers. Heineken Cup rugby is still very much on the agenda, whilst a good run of results could even see them sneaking into the play-off spots.

For a little while now it has looked as if Gloucester, Northampton and Wasps have looked as if they are fighting for the 4th spot. Gloucester will be confident of a win at home to London Welsh but the meeting between the other two could be a cracker.

Against a Worcester side with very little to play for, and a lot of departing players, London Irish will be hoping to secure the win that would all but guarantee survival.

Tigers will have to decide how many of their battered England contingent to take down to Devon. They will hope to repeat the home victory where Exter were outmuscled and ultimately well beaten. A win for Exeter though and Tiger's fans will be looking nervousley over their shoulders at the chasing pack, whilst Exeter fans will start wondering if they could get another HEC campaign.

The round closes on Sunday with the tie of the round. Table toppers host champions and a win for Sarries would make them clear favourites for a home play off semi. A win for Quins (especially if accompanied by a Tigers win) would make things very interesting at the top.


The quality and ambition shown by the four LV semi-finalists suggests we may have a good weekend, I hope so.

Will he be defending against Monye or Williams?

Williams has looked almost back to his best in the LV while Monye aside from being very good at restarts looks like he's lost that attacking spark. (Apart from the awesome try to cap his 200th Quins appearance.)

yappysnap wrote:Will he be defending against Monye or Williams?

Williams has looked almost back to his best in the LV while Monye aside from being very good at restarts looks like he's lost that attacking spark. (Apart from the awesome try to cap his 200th Quins appearance.)

Williams is injured, so it will be Monye or Smith

Great to see Tom Palmer back for Wasps & we have a decent bench with the likes of Launch, Haskell & Massi to come on.
Big game this one COYW.

Strettle will be vs Monye. Ashton vs Smith.

Strettle's one of the form wingers at the moment and will be extra motivated by playing his old club. I would be wary of him.


Yappysnap I agree. I think if Quins are to win you'll have to build a decent lead to win the match because Saracens in their last few games have been finishing very strongly.

yappysnap wrote:If any one is feeling like they need a big game it's Brown, he's just played a whole tournament out of position and never got a change to show the form he's capable of and will be playing opposite the plodder that has his rightful place.

Kelly Brown?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Great to see Tom Palmer back for Wasps & we have a decent bench with the likes of Launch, Haskell & Massi to come on.
Big game this one COYW.

No doubts, this match is going to be real big boy Rugby. Not for the faint of heart.
Great clash of styles: Wasps trying to get the ball wide. Saints to pound it up the gut. Will be fun to watch.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

yappysnap wrote:If any one is feeling like they need a big game it's Brown, he's just played a whole tournament out of position and never got a change to show the form he's capable of and will be playing opposite the plodder that has his rightful place.

Kelly Brown?

I thought he had a very good 6N's!

Doesn't Brown play for Sarries though? So he'll be playing against his direct competition for a lions shirt...

The same could be said for T.Youngs, Cole, Parling, Croft, B>Youngs and Tuilagi Sam. All were poor against Wales.

I personally don't think any of the England boys need a big game particularly, but if you are saying one does, then surely that applies to all of them.

True Ozzy, no England player had a good game. Farrell must be concerned, he is in the squad because of his ability with the boot and under pressure. Yet he showed he is fallible off the tee, no tactical master and was lucky not to see yellow for a shoulder charge in the second half. Flood showed his creative talents off the bench. If consistency between the two is no longer in Farrell's favour then he has as good as lost his shirt. Farrell is there to keep the team in the right area of the pitch and too keep the scoreboard ticking. Perfect game to show those skills on Sunday.

yappysnap wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

yappysnap wrote:If any one is feeling like they need a big game it's Brown, he's just played a whole tournament out of position and never got a change to show the form he's capable of and will be playing opposite the plodder that has his rightful place.

Kelly Brown?

I thought he had a very good 6N's!

Doesn't Brown play for Sarries though? So he'll be playing against his direct competition for a lions shirt...

Well, no Brown and Robshaw would be a pretty good flank combo IMO

14-13 win to Sale over Bath sees them go 6 points clear of London Welsh.

Final nail in the coffin for Welsh?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

yappysnap wrote:If any one is feeling like they need a big game it's Brown, he's just played a whole tournament out of position and never got a change to show the form he's capable of and will be playing opposite the plodder that has his rightful place.

Kelly Brown?

I thought he had a very good 6N's!

Doesn't Brown play for Sarries though? So he'll be playing against his direct competition for a lions shirt...

Well, no Brown and Robshaw would be a pretty good flank combo IMO

Not sure about that, both need a much more physical player opposite them to let them get on with their jobs.

yappysnap wrote:Final nail in the coffin for Welsh?

A lot will depend on the outcome of their appeal - its ironic the decision is currently pending....

HongKongCherry wrote:Looking at those 2 sides it is clear why Sale are where they are, as they really don't have that much quality. The only player I'd have from Sale in that Bath side would be Seymour at 7 with Fearns going to 8. I'm sure Henry Thomas will surpass Wilson given time, but at present Wilson is the better player. Having said all of that Sale will probably go and win now!

I didn't intentionally jinx Bath, honest...

Despite the loss Bath are still in for a shout of getting into HC as Saints, Glaws, Wasps and Bath all have tough run ins and 4th, 5th and 6th could go to anyone.

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah, I looked at the Bath lineup and thought "hmmmm", yet my gut says Sale will win this.

Perhaps I was responsible HKC .

LondonTiger wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah, I looked at the Bath lineup and thought "hmmmm", yet my gut says Sale will win this.

Perhaps I was responsible HKC .

In which case, thanks LT

Bloomin hell Bath are rubbish! Just a pack full of lumps without any ball skills and a backline that's the same! Ford must be licking his lips with anticipation for next season #ragdoll

Funny but shows that Sale are more than capable at home. I'm already slightly concerned about our coming visit!

Good game between Wasps and Northampton at the moment.

Yeah, this is a good 'un. What's with all the snow?

Good game, awarding that Hartley try is silly though...

Firstly Dowson plays the ball for the line, doesn't make it, Togahuia is clearly on hands and knees over the ball/grounded player playing the ball back = 1) no contest seling off. The Hartley is the first man into the ruck, and essentially becomes the ruck 2) is Hartley allowed to play the ball as he's the ruck?, finally as Hartley pushes over he is clearly pushing one of his own men over in front of him, and as he places the ball the NS players arm and head is clearly still in front of him 3) obstruction/offside.

Am I being harsh on NS or should that not have stood?

Great game though, as a neutral I hope wasps get more ball, theyre excellent to watch

Good game and really well reffed as well. Makes me feel cold just watching it though.

Saints backline really is struggling. Waldouck seems to have neither exceptional power, pace or skill. He really isn't a 12, surely a game for Burrell.

I think Saints' biggest disappointment of this season is Waldouck. Really shows nothing. Tom May should be on soon.

I'm falling in love with the way Wasps attack

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm falling in love with the way Wasps attack

Only seen the second half. Jesus they play some tidy stuff. The hooker Lyndsey/Lindsey? He looks amazing.

Henson late injury withdrawal?

Heartbreak for wasps, what a game to watch though!!

Hartley scored a dodgy try first half, then proved canny to run a block for the try second too...

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm falling in love with the way Wasps attack

Me too. Such a shame they lost to an increasingly turgid and one dimensional Saints team. They're regressing into the Sarries team of a few seasons ago - all forward set piece grunt and nowt else. Lindsey's carrying was immense. God i wish he could throw.

His throwing has definitely improved on last year, if he carries on improving he could be worth a look by England. He is just so hard to put down in the carry. Imagine having Youngs on for the first 50-60 minutes and then bringing Lindsay on against tired defences.

The only redeeming fact for Glaws was that we won, everything else was dire. We will be thumped by Quins if we play like that again. Utter tosh!

HongKongCherry wrote:The only redeeming fact for Glaws was that we won, everything else was dire. We will be thumped by Quins if we play like that again. Utter tosh!

Pretty much sums up my feelings about our match

HongKongCherry wrote:The only redeeming fact for Glaws was that we won, everything else was dire. We will be thumped by Quins if we play like that again. Utter tosh!

I couldn't make it today, what on earth happened? No disrespect to Welsh but we've played some decent rugby of late, yet couldn't find the try line against the bottom placed team?

Don't watch any English rugby but watched Northampton v Wasps today and have to say I would rather watch paint dry than watch Northampton every week. Has to be the worst form of rugby I have seen. Yes they won but who wants to watch 8 man rugby week in week out - BORING !!!!!

True Pyle but it was still a good game.

Hope the weather clears up for the big draw with multiple citings tomorrow.

EnglishReign wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:The only redeeming fact for Glaws was that we won, everything else was dire. We will be thumped by Quins if we play like that again. Utter tosh!

I couldn't make it today, what on earth happened? No disrespect to Welsh but we've played some decent rugby of late, yet couldn't find the try line against the bottom placed team?

We were utterly clueless with incredibly poor control and management. The backrow were anonymous in the first half and the backs didnt know how to pass,kick or run straight. Burns missed some sitters and we just looked like a team playing together for the first time. It was only our scrum dominance in the second half that saved us.

LondonTiger wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:The only redeeming fact for Glaws was that we won, everything else was dire. We will be thumped by Quins if we play like that again. Utter tosh!

Pretty much sums up my feelings about our match

Having watched your game you were infinitely better than us!!

Regarding Saints today, they decided early on if they were dominating the forward battle, they would continue to play to that strength. Was very windy and snowy. Clearly would have been a bad decision to get in a running competition with a team like Wasps.

Wasps Dai Young:
"They were dominant up front, that was their one weapon. They did not try and play, or need to play, any other way. You will always struggle to win any game if you cannot stop a driving line-out.

Northampton's Jim Mallinder:

"We would have been kicking ourselves if we had not have won. But a team like Wasps can score points very quickly and we gave away too many penalties to allow them to keep the scoreboard ticking.

"Our maul was exceptional and it was an area we targeted. Conditions can change and you have to have more to your game than that, but today the conditions were bad out there.

"It was blustery, it was snowing and if you have a weapon like that then why not use it?

Why not, indeed?

doctor_grey wrote:Regarding Saints today, they decided early on if they were dominating the forward battle, they would continue to play to that strength. Was very windy and snowy. Clearly would have been a bad decision to get in a running competition with a team like Wasps.

Wasps Dai Young:
"They were dominant up front, that was their one weapon. They did not try and play, or need to play, any other way. You will always struggle to win any game if you cannot stop a driving line-out.

Northampton's Jim Mallinder:

"We would have been kicking ourselves if we had not have won. But a team like Wasps can score points very quickly and we gave away too many penalties to allow them to keep the scoreboard ticking.

"Our maul was exceptional and it was an area we targeted. Conditions can change and you have to have more to your game than that, but today the conditions were bad out there.

"It was blustery, it was snowing and if you have a weapon like that then why not use it?

Why not, indeed?

I wanted so bad to use the phrase 'Wasps put pay to the phrase 'It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog''!!! Then Hartley cheated his way for 2 tries

formerly known as Sam wrote:True Pyle but it was still a good game.

Hope the weather clears up for the big draw with multiple citings tomorrow.

A draw would be fantastic compared to what I'm worried may happen!

Sarries are a tough team to beat. Quins need to get their offloading game going and play in the right areas of the park and they'll cause Sarries problems. Remember the pitch will be hard under foot tomorrow so running rugby is on.

doctor_grey wrote:Regarding Saints today, they decided early on if they were dominating the forward battle, they would continue to play to that strength. Was very windy and snowy. Clearly would have been a bad decision to get in a running competition with a team like Wasps.

Wasps Dai Young:
"They were dominant up front, that was their one weapon. They did not try and play, or need to play, any other way. You will always struggle to win any game if you cannot stop a driving line-out.

Northampton's Jim Mallinder:

"We would have been kicking ourselves if we had not have won. But a team like Wasps can score points very quickly and we gave away too many penalties to allow them to keep the scoreboard ticking.

"Our maul was exceptional and it was an area we targeted. Conditions can change and you have to have more to your game than that, but today the conditions were bad out there.

"It was blustery, it was snowing and if you have a weapon like that then why not use it?

Why not, indeed?

Why not? Because a sole focus on 8 man rugby has seen Saints slip back into also rans territory at HC level, and because the other top three teams know how to counter it.

As bluesman said - really wanted to see Wasps, err, waspish approach pay off.

Saints have clearly regressed this season. That is due to personnel losses in the midfield, on the wing, and even Roger Wilson at number 8. Its still enough to be fourth in the table, at least for now.

But the point I was trying to make was on a cold, windy day, when kicks and passes were very tricky, and the ball hard to pass and catch, what's wrong with a little olde fashioned route 1 forward play? Especially when the Saints pack were much more powerful than Wasps. This was their plan for the day, and as Mallinder said, it worked (though barely so).

The Wasps fling it, wing it style out to Varndell and Wade is really not made for a day like Saturday. It brought them close, those two 50 yard sequences for their tries.

Mallinder mentioned that this approach is not for everyone and a team must have more to its arsenal than that. And they do. But this was the plan for the day against the runningest club in the Premiership, and it worked. On a bad day, maul after maul, it was a thing of beauty. And the match was entertaining.

Looking at each of their 4 tries again, no dirty play, (the usual allegation whenever Hartley bows his nose or is involved in anything). In the second try a great maul from which Hartley never disconnected. Clean. On the third try, Ashley Johnson comes charging in and then stoipps supporting his own weight as he laid on the Saints at the breakdown. Hartley scored, but if not, should have been another penalty try. And Hartley, Man of the Match, was excellent and clean on the day.

doctor_grey wrote: But this was the plan for the day against the runningest club in the Premiership, and it worked. On a bad day, maul after maul, it was a thing of beauty.

Oh dear, your conversion to a fully fledged 'merkin is complete


More seriously - as someone who was out for most of the game (switched on as they TMO decided on Daly's try) and then missed the final score as Tigers match had already started on ESPN, I can only talk in generalities. There is nothing wrong with adapting the approach most likely to win a specific game especially if there are rogue weather conditions. The problem only occurs if you are unable to adapt a different approach when meeting a side that can easily contain the original.

Against us in recent(ish) history Saints have been successfull when stretching the defence. However in the most recent matches Saints have adopted a very physical approach which we have absorbed quite easily, winning the last 5 matches.

The Saints attempted to use the midfield on several occasions but there's nothing in there. Waldouck is easily marshalled. Pisi is a running threat but with the 10 and 12 shut down all his space.

That midfield has two 13s they need either a creative centre or to bring in Burrell to draw in some defenders and create space.

LT,
It was late - I was tired. It was the only word which came to my enfeebled mind (made a bit more so by a few pints).

I think Wasps on a wintery day was the perfect opponent for Saints. Played completely to our strengths. By the way, it seemed to me Wasps really hadn't practised against the Maul so much as they have the players to stop it, but instead were clumsy. Really committed a lot of infringements which were not called. You think teams might not be practising against it too much any more?

I think Saints problems are pretty obvious. The centres and wings really don't have an aggressive cutting edge. Waldouck is a surprise. I thought him a brilliant signing, but he simply isn't working out for Saints. No real idea why. George Pisi is up and down.

I think next season is going to be very difficult as we have to replace Tiny and Mujati.

Looking forward to hosting you lot next Saturday.

doctor_grey wrote:Looking forward to hosting you lot next Saturday.

Should be a good atmosphere - we have just started (Exter yesterday was first) a series of sell-out fixtures. The Gardens next week is a sellout as is Stade Felix Mayol the week after. Our trip to Bath should be a sell-out and the two remaining fixtures are down to handfuls left.

We are on target for finishing in front of sell outs as well. Only exception will be in Oxford in mid-April. Unless Saints supporters go over and fill it up. I think someone is already trying to organise that.

What a great end of the season - except the merde-like weather.

doctor_grey wrote:LT,
It was late - I was tired. It was the only word which came to my enfeebled mind (made a bit more so by a few pints).

I think Wasps on a wintery day was the perfect opponent for Saints. Played completely to our strengths. By the way, it seemed to me Wasps really hadn't practised against the Maul so much as they have the players to stop it, but instead were clumsy. Really committed a lot of infringements which were not called. You think teams might not be practising against it too much any more?

I think Saints problems are pretty obvious. The centres and wings really don't have an aggressive cutting edge. Waldouck is a surprise. I thought him a brilliant signing, but he simply isn't working out for Saints. No real idea why. George Pisi is up and down.

I think next season is going to be very difficult as we have to replace Tiny and Mujati.

Looking forward to hosting you lot next Saturday.

Fair points on playing the conditions, but LT I think's right - at the moment this is the ONLY way Saints seem capable of playing. Any team with a top pack can nullify them fairly easily. You do desperately need to get that back line fixed. But would the Saints coaching team be able to bring out the best in a better collection of backs? I'm not sure.

Yeah, mate. I agree. This would be the first time since relegation (seems a long time ago!) that the team needs to be rebuilt. Having Alex King as back coach will bring change, but I suppose we have to see if that means improvement. The key is to retaining that forward power, but develop the backs play to where they can be a threat. They don't need to be ultra dynamic, just solid and somewhat creative.

It may be heresy, but I still wonder if Mallinder has reached his sell-by date at Saints. Coach-club relationships can get stale over time.