England summer tour of Argentina

First topic message reminder :

Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

What about Tait going to Argentina?

lostinwales wrote:What about Tait going to Argentina?

I'd like Tait to travel. He'scertainly finding some form now, and was excellent at the weekend, especially under the high ball. He hasn't played there in a while, but he's useful in the centre too, and on the wing, so offers some good cover should there be any injuries.

Full back is a competitive position though, so we'll just have to see.

I wouldnt take him as a FB...not when we have Brown, Foden and Goode. Id Start Brown at 15 in Argentina.

I wouldnt take him at all to be honest. I think we have other youngsters to look at first. IF he continues to perform, impress...STAY FIT and UNINJURED, then look at him next season, but for this tour players like Joseph, Daly, Tomkins, Wade, Eastmond, Thompstone, Yarde, Varndell, have all had good enough seasons to warrant a tour.

Think you're probably right GF, though I'd fully expect him to be in the Saxons.

I would love to see a Twelvetrees and Joseph centre partnership in Argentina. I'd start with them.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah im not saying that LIW,

I merely saying hes not your traditional 6 so people question him...and always will. As i said i see his value, and if 'we' being England decide to use him at 6 i wouldnt be unhappy so long as i saw some serious size being brought in to the engine room to cover.

As, personally, having a back 5 of:
4- Parling
5 - launchbury
6 - Croft
7 - Robshaw
8 - Morgan

whilst having many +ves would be lacking a fair bit of bulk for my liking.

That really is the essence of it. Again it comes back to our old coinage 'balance'.

In my opinion I couldn't think of a forward more suited to playing a Lions test in Australia than Tom Croft. Hard grounds, a traditional open style of play and a good line-out team. He's a real quality asset to have in those conditions. I agree with GF he's a player who to some extent has to be catered for and perhaps that's why some people don't accept him as blindside.

For England he's had some excellent performances and was superb in SA for the Lions I think that really says enough about him. England went backwards against Wales because a) they were beaten technically at the breakdown and b) across the pack were too lightweight.

For the Lions i'd like to see Croft start he's done enough in my view to justify his fitness. Here's my pack built with Croft in mind:

1. A Sheridan - good carrying game and puts the fear into the Ozzies
2. R Hibbard - again a strong carrying game and I was impressed with him in the 6N
3. A Jones - just technically so accomplished, Cole to come on for breakdown work
4. N Hines - some may say a fad choice but he adds weight and superb hands
5. I Evans - could make the perfect allround lock good in traffic and the lineout
6. T Croft - if he makes the test he could win MOM at a canter
7. S Warburton - i like a traditional openside and he's physical as well (Fraser seems the coming man for England, superb on the w/end)
8. B Morgan - not enough fitness at the moment but Faletau doesn't do enough heavy close carrying for my liking (i appreciate he will prob start though)

16. R Best - technically very good and will step up for the Lions (not much competition though - Youngs to tour midweek)
17. C Healy - great around the park (If Corbisiero had made this 6N he could've made a real case)
18. D Cole - lost out to Jones in the 6N but you can't fault his park work
19. J Launchbury - young but with a huge future almost faultless work can cover BR and would work well with SOB
20. S O'Brien - Excellent carrier and breakdown work covers across the BR and keeps balance with Launchbury

There we have it highly subjective as always but they key point i've tried to retain is the concept of balance in the pack.

Apologies for cluttering this thread with that Lions stuff by the way but it has some relevance here...

On the w/end Dewi Morris was saying that he'd spoken to Lancs and he intends to take a team of players he doesn't already know about. That would rule out some of the more usual names like Hartley etc. I think he'll genuinely be looking at some of the alternatives particularly in light of the Wales defeat.

For me Fraser, Kvesic, Kitchener, Slater have all put their hands up. Wallace, Buchanan, Kruis, Attwood and Fearns are all outside bets although I think Fearns and Attwood are injured at present.

Prop-wise Thomas and Wilson need to go along with Mullan, Catt and Corbs if fit.

Well thats interesting Chjw

If Dewi is correct, i thought lancs would go with the strongest team possible but im glad to see he is taking a common sence rule and resting senior players and using this tour correctly. lets not forget it wont be an easy tour...so it will show him how some of the pretenders can cope.
Excellent news....

It could be very much a Saxons tour with fringe Senior EPS players.

Although having said that...i wasnt impressed at all when i saw the Saxons at kingston park in Feb....

So something like:
1 Vunipola
2 Buchanan
3 Henry Thomas
4 Slater / (Garvey anyone?? )
5 Kitchener
6 Kruis
7 Fraser / Kvesic
8 Vunipola

9 Care / Youngs - for a bit of experince
10 Burns (Flood bench for experience)
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Joseph
14 Yarde
15 Daly

I'm glad to hear that, and glad that Lancaster has decided to take a relatively inexperienced squad.

Like the look of that lineup GF. I'd take Garvey for sure!

Only change for me would be May on the wing in place of Yarde. I'd also be tempted to start Lindsay at hooker with Bucanhan on the bench.

Agree GF I thought the Saxons were poor across both games actually. Ireland was a tough one admittedly but Kitchener and Fraser really stood out in the forwards and many others have come on a bit since then notably Joel Tomkins in the backs.

Some players need to be moved on from the Saxons and a view taken on their likely development in the future. Some players such as George Robson don't seem to me to be the future on the international stage and it might be worth moving him on.

Matt Mullan should tour Argentina but on a last chance saloon from a development point of view. Young Nathan Catt has had some excellent games for Bath and there are others coming through at LH who might justify a place.

The same may be said for Joe Gray. Excellent line-out and a solid player but Rob Buchanan looks to have much more about him and again should be getting some game time in Saxons style games.

Yeah I did forget about May...but i confess to liking one skilled pacy winger...and another maybe a bit physical and robust...more route one...with pace. Just means you can vary the play abit, bringing the winger on a crash ball or spinning wide etc.

You know guys in all honesty theres so many possibilites that its actually a problem.

Just look at hooker.
Buchanan has impressed for Quins
Lindsay has always impressed me...but seems to be getting even better
Webber is a decent hooker
Joe gray is very technically good
Who do you choose?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So something like:
1 M Vunipola
2 R Buchanan
3 H Thomas (D Wilson)
4 E Slater
5 G Kitchener
6 G Kruis (C Fearns)
7 W Fraser
8 B Vunipola (B Morgan)

9 D Care
10 F Burns
11 C Wade
12 B Twelvetrees
13 J Joseph
14 M Yarde
15 E Daly (B Foden)

Yes I particularly like the backline GF but i'd be tempted to bring in one or two senior players who need either to start a run of form or re-establish themselves. Thus i'd go with the changes in bold. I think Morgan needs to get back in the saddle with Billy V the coming man. Davy Wilson is a great scrummager and needs a run to keep his spot in the test team, he does deserve it.

Fearns I appreciate is not established in any way but if he's fit and doesn't play at 7 he could be the perfect bench option for England during the AI's. He's a really strong carrier and combined with Fraser/Kvesic at 7 and Morgan/Vunipola at 8 would make up a backrow of some real go forward.

Foden has had a hard time with his injury and lest we forget he put in some excellent performances for England both in attack and defence. With fitness he deserves a shot back in the shirt. Particularly with Bill at 12.

Here's my bench:

16. T Lindsay (J George needs some gametime!) 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. G Kruis 20. M Kvesic 21. J Simpson 22. G Ford 23. J Tomkins

Bluestone Lindsay could be really good but I don't think his all round game is there yet and starting a test against the Argies you need some serious strength in all departments of your game.

As far as the likes of Rob Webber, Matt Garvey, Dave Attwood and the like I think they probably need a bit more game time to cement form. Garvey has been great but recently at BS I haven't seen quite so much of his carrying. Moving to Bath he'll have a chance to kick on I feel.

Webber will tour I think and is a unit but has only just come back and didn't look fit even when he was in the EPS! He could be a real handful though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not sure Lawes is firing at the moment...saxons maybe, but not 1st team squad.

Deacon? Id rather go with Slater, Kruis, Attwood or one of the young guns who are performing well.

Deacon I really rate to be fair. He does the basics very well, can run the line-out and adds balast to the scrum. The latter of which is often overlooked in locks but it's also something Parling is very good at technically - when Parling had to go off for Lawes in the 6N the scrum suffered significantly IMO.

Looking at the summer tour I'd actually take Parling with the Lions and bring Deacon in as a direct replacement.

Lions locks - POC, Parling, Wyn Jones, Hines, Ryan (assuming Gray won't make it)

Argentina tour locks - Launchberry, Deacon, Lawes, Garvey, Slater

That's looking at who I'd take not who I think Gatland and Lancaster will take however.

Agree with Geordie on Tom Lindsay - a rough diamond and England should look to use him in the summer. Sure, there are deficiencies to his game, but he's a monster ball carrier and is really starting to throw his weight around in the loose. I'm a fan of Webber as well.

With Gray and Buchannan, I see them as more solid than remarkable. Possibly better technical players now, but I see more potential in Lindsay.

Ed Slater has got to be there, he's the only lock we've got who is as big (probably bigger) and as mobile as Launchbury. He needs to get some international experience to see if he can hack it. Plus we're going to Argentina and Slater is good in the lineout and a work horse around the park, just what we'll need.

Buchanan looks immense, as physical as youngs but better throwing. I'd have him straight in there as third choice but then i'm also massively biased.

Seriously he does look class though. He's all about the physicality.

I would also say that if he isn't away with the Lions (I don't think he will be) then Mike Brown has to be at 15.

In two horrible team performances and on the losing sides both times he made the most metres ball against Munster (36) and probably the most line breaks of any one player in one game against Sarries (11!!!).

Needs to be given an extended run in his favourite position.

Agreed on Brown yappy. He's the best 15 we have on offer so let's play him there please!

The thing that bothered me with Lancaster playing Brown on the wing wasn't so much the picking of a full back to play wing (something I don't like anyway) but the fact that Lancaster's gameplan seems to be playing with two full backs rather than two wingers.

If you look at how the back three played Brown was rarely brought into play when we had the ball. He wasn't brought in field during attacks and there seemed to be no effort to get the ball to him. Whilst Brown did exceptionally well fielding kicks and returning them that's all he really seemed to be expected to do in the game plan - which shows an almost embarrassing lack of ambition from an international side IMO!

1.Vunipola 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Launchberry 5.Deacon 6.Haskell 7.Fraser 8.Morgan 9.Wigglesworth 10.Burns 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Lowe 14.Foden 15.Brown
16.Gray 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Slater 20.Kvesic 21.Simpson 22.Flood 23.Joseph

Excluding the players that I'd take on Lions tour - Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood, Robshaw, Youngs, Care, Farrell, Tuilagi and Corbs due to injury that's the side I'd pick.

I have left Croft out of both lists as I'm currently right on the fence over whether he's shown enough for me to want him on the Lions tour yet (I'm hoping he does show enough to go!).

king_carlos wrote:Agreed on Brown yappy. He's the best 15 we have on offer so let's play him there please!

The thing that bothered me with Lancaster playing Brown on the wing wasn't so much the picking of a full back to play wing (something I don't like anyway) but the fact that Lancaster's gameplan seems to be playing with two full backs rather than two wingers.

If you look at how the back three played Brown was rarely brought into play when we had the ball. He wasn't brought in field during attacks and there seemed to be no effort to get the ball to him. Whilst Brown did exceptionally well fielding kicks and returning them that's all he really seemed to be expected to do in the game plan - which shows an almost embarrassing lack of ambition from an international side IMO!

1.Vunipola 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Launchberry 5.Deacon 6.Haskell 7.Fraser 8.Morgan 9.Wigglesworth 10.Burns 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Lowe 14.Foden 15.Brown
16.Gray 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Slater 20.Kvesic 21.Simpson 22.Flood 23.Joseph

Excluding the players that I'd take on Lions tour - Youngs, Cole, Parling, Wood, Robshaw, Youngs, Care, Farrell, Tuilagi and Corbs due to injury that's the side I'd pick.

I have left Croft out of both lists as I'm currently right on the fence over whether he's shown enough for me to want him on the Lions tour yet (I'm hoping he does show enough to go!).

Completely agree. When you think back and consider the drivel that Brown was given to work with, he performed unbelievably well. He wasn't on the end of any flowing backs moves, and rarely received the ball in space. To perform as he did on the back of opposition kicks and mistakes is a testament to his quality. And he did it all on the wing! HAS to be the starting full back for me.

Agreed bluestonevedder, just because a player plays well doesn't mean they can't be dropped if they aren't the best player for the team in that position is basically what I'm getting at.

Yes Goode performed well but if we want to pose an attacking threat (which we should to be successful) then we need some out and out pace in the back three. As such Brown shouldn't be on the wing and when it's a straight shootout between Brown and Goode for one place MB wins IMO.

The same goes for Barritt. He's exceptional in defence yes but he can't be consistently played in a centre partnership with Tuilagi if we want to get the ball to the wings. As Tuilagi is the most potent weapon we have he shouldn't be dropped so Barritt needs to make way for Twelvetrees or even Anthony Allen (a much underrated player).

Barritt is a wonderful player in some ways but yeah I just dont think we will lose that much in defense with a 36/ maturing Tuilagi combo, yet gain so much more in attack.

I think Allen's ship has sailed as far as internationals goes though. I wish they had persevered more with him when he was first selected. I never knew what he did to get dropped. Of that generation of players the ones who may have the best chance to reappear are Tait and dare I say it - Bannahan?

Allen's only just under 4 months older than Tom Youngs lostinwales! If given a chance he's certainly got the time to return. I'd also love to see Tait's form improve to the stage where he's challenging Brown for the FB shirt.

He played brilliantly at the weekend and the amount his game has improved since the start of the season shows a remarkable volume of hard work has gone into his core skills at 15.

BOD rated Allen highly after a match a couple of years agon in which Allen stepped BOD.

I do think that Twelvetrees offers more though.

If Twelvetrees does not take Barrit's place soon I am going to be less than happy.

We must do something with Tuilagi also. He can actually pass perfectly well but has a horrible habbit of either not seeing or ignoring overlaps. Can/will this change?

All things going well our best backline at the RWC2015 will be…

Youngs
Burns
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
May/Foden
Wade
Brown/Daly

Anthony Allen has done great things for us, and Tait is getting better each match. Neither should be touring though.

The Quins, if they don't go to Aus, that I'd send to Argentina are Brown, Care, Marler, and maybe Buchanan, Guest and Wallace. Brown has to play 15, it's basically criminal not to even let him show his wares

Triangulation wrote:BOD rated Allen highly after a match a couple of years agon in which Allen stepped BOD.

I do think that Twelvetrees offers more though.

If Twelvetrees does not take Barrit's place soon I am going to be less than happy.

We must do something with Tuilagi also. He can actually pass perfectly well but has a horrible habbit of either not seeing or ignoring overlaps. Can/will this change?

All things going well our best backline at the RWC2015 will be…

Youngs
Burns
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
May/Foden
Wade
Brown/Daly

Daly looks much better at 13 than 15 tbh

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:BOD rated Allen highly after a match a couple of years agon in which Allen stepped BOD.

I do think that Twelvetrees offers more though.

If Twelvetrees does not take Barrit's place soon I am going to be less than happy.

We must do something with Tuilagi also. He can actually pass perfectly well but has a horrible habbit of either not seeing or ignoring overlaps. Can/will this change?

All things going well our best backline at the RWC2015 will be…

Youngs
Burns
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
May/Foden
Wade
Brown/Daly

Daly looks much better at 13 than 15 tbh

Yes but that aside i am spot on arent i?
I have nailed it?

Maybe, unless new faces appear

lostinwales wrote:Barritt is a wonderful player in some ways but yeah I just dont think we will lose that much in defense with a 36/ maturing Tuilagi combo, yet gain so much more in attack.

I think Allen's ship has sailed as far as internationals goes though. I wish they had persevered more with him when he was first selected. I never knew what he did to get dropped. Of that generation of players the ones who may have the best chance to reappear are Tait and dare I say it - Bannahan?

I think that's probably about right lostin. Tait looked to be getting into that high pressure game very well and put in a superb performance for someone who has been out of the game for two seasons recently. He will only get better and the Tigers is the best place for him to do that.

As far as Banahan goes it's really not an off the wall suggestion. No he wasn't ready for the centre role under Johnson and he wasn't used particularly well by England as a physical winger. At Bath he's added a kicking game and some much better handling to his game. Whether we'll see him on the international stage again though I don't know. With the likes of Tomkins coming through Banners may be a bit late.

In keeping with the boards recent attempt to make XV's for everything I feel a 'misused talent XV' coming along:

1.Stevens - not a loosehead
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.Sanderson - not an 8

9.
10.Cipriani - picked a player without a complete game then dropped him for not having a complete game...

11.Varndell - played to early then discarded
12.Allen - see above
13.Tait - see above
14.Banahan
15.Monye

I have found this topic really interesting, but the responses do highlight one of the big problems that England have - which is too many decent players.

In every position 5 or 6 players are being put forward. It is easy to see why the likes of Tait, Allen, Varndell, etc get a few games and then get dropped when things go slightly wrong. Other countries like Wales just don't have the luxury of the number of players England have. If Cuthbert had been English, after the poor defensive errors he made in the first games of this years 6Ns he would probably have been dropped, so wouldn't have been there to score tries against England, et al. However, Wales seem to persevere either through good selection, or necessisty and more often than not it pays off.

I am not sure it does Youngs and Care any good for them to seemingly be rotated when one of them slightly goes 'off the boil'. The mutch criticised Mike Phillips seems to be consistently selected and it paid off against England.

Whilst it is an enjoyable way to pass a few hours suggesting possible players and backrow combinations, I just think that England would do better sometimes picking 3 players and sticking with them for a while. England's best teams always seem to do better with settled combinations - Back, Hill & Dallaglio - Winterbottom, Teague & Skinner, etc.

So excluding Lions selections, I hope England go with the tried, the next in line and just one or two wildcards.

nlpnlp

It's true that with a lot of pro teams and academies we seem to have a production line of good players lining up to compete for positions. I think many people also agree with you that we need to select certain players and stick with them, hence why their is so much frustration and argument when people feel that the wrong players are being stuck with!

Wing would be my main point in case here with May, Wade, Varndell, Biggs and Monye all seemingly preferred by most posters yet ignored for Ashton, Strettle and Brown (though Clark may have been covering the wing as well we can't be sure...).

king_carlos wrote:In keeping with the boards recent attempt to make XV's for everything I feel a 'misused talent XV' coming along:

1.Stevens - not a loosehead
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.Sanderson - not an 8

9.
10.Cipriani - picked a player without a complete game then dropped him for not having a complete game...

11.Varndell - played to early then discarded
12.Allen - see above
13.Tait - see above
14.Banahan
15.Monye

To be fair Monye played one game at FB which we know was awful. He played 15 times (?) as a wing for England and did reasonably ok but I don't think we could say he was a vast talent who was misused by England.

I agree that Varndell and possibly Allen were played too early. Also Stevens probably not a top end loosehead but lest we forget that most of his appearances were at TH or on the 22 man bench for England when we had to have a prop to cover both sides.

Tait has 38 caps for England. He played some superb games and was dropped ultimately for a run of poor form. Hardly ruined by England I would say. Banahan was more than likely misused by England and his confidence suffered hugely as a result. He didn't help himself by getting stopped by Shane Williams 5m out though.

chjw131 - I know I was just poking some fun at the number of weird and wonderful XV threads we see on these boards more than anything. Also it was a 'misused' XV rather than a 'players who were ruined' one and whilst I agree Monte played very well in most his games and Tait had some brilliant moments I'd also argue that they were misused by the management at times in how/where they were played!

Surprising that so many people see Robshaw as a certain Lion - its a marginal call I'd say, There are a number of guys ahead of him.

I'd take Robshaw as my second openside behind Tipuric currently with O'Brien and Wood travelling as blindsides who can also play there and one of Lydiate/Brown/O'Mahoney/Croft making up the 5 flankers. That could all change with performances, injury etc quite easily though.

king_carlos wrote:chjw131 - I know I was just poking some fun at the number of weird and wonderful XV threads we see on these boards more than anything. Also it was a 'misused' XV rather than a 'players who were ruined' one and whilst I agree Monte played very well in most his games and Tait had some brilliant moments I'd also argue that they were misused by the management at times in how/where they were played!

Apologies I took it a bit too seriously again. One day i'll develop a sense of lightheartedness.

Good point by another poster about 'talent' depth though. There always seem to be a plethora of choices in most positions and I have to say the academies and age groups seem to have been working pretty well. The main problem is that what we tend to be developing are good professional players without enough focus and investment in making the top end of those players into really world XV candidates.

Doing as well as NZ at U20 is one thing, repeating it on the senior stage seems to be quite another. Do we lack the vision and desire at the top of the development tree to foster world class players?

Yeah Sam i would deinately take Slater...big powerful lad.

CH i have always seen the benefits of Deacon...something that is ackowledged is the input of a Second row in the scrums...particular on the tight head side. This was something Simon Shaw was famed for...TH's said it was like having two players behind you. I just feel Deacon should remain at home and lets see if one of the pretenders can stand out.

We need to discover a new monster second row..who can bring that...but also bring the ferocity / physicality and indeed intimidation that a Johnson, Botha, Thorn etc etc used to bring.

Can Slater / Attwood / Garvey / etc etc bring that...maybe / maybe not. But we wont know until they have been given a chance. And tours like this are perfect.

RE Daly...its been said that Wasps and England see him as a 15 through his career..and whilst i listed him, if we were to take some senior EPS'ers on the tour...i too would have Brown start at 15.

Strange that all the monster second rows you mention are now retired from International rugby. Could this be because the game has moved on to the new lighter (easier to lift), more athletic round the park kind of second row/blindside wing forward. How often do commentators these days eulogise about the 'soft hands' shown by the likes of Gray and Whitelock who normally stand out on the wing.

So many second rows seem to be interchangeable with 6 these days - I could never have imagined Johnson, Botha or Thorn playing in the backrow.
Can England turn back the rugby tide and pick a big and nasty pack of forwards? Or would the multiple TV cameras have turned Johnson into a reviled card magnet?

England took a bit of a lesson from Wales, who in Evans and AWJ have a big but not 'monster' second row. I think this 'cult' of the enforcer is an outdated concept and please don't say Etzebeth - the guy is strictly handbags.

Reading through this thread and I'm surprised Tomkins hasn't appeared in more people's teams. He'd be the perfect partner to Twelvetrees in the centres and has had a superb season so far holding his own against top opposition. What's even more odd is that Joseph is still getting mentioned on the basis of very little, specially as he's playing 15 for Irish.

Nlp

You are correct there has been a shift, and personally whilst I admire the increased athleticism, I also feel sorry that this is a further move towards the rugby league style one player mould fits al
I want to see big grizzled players like thorn, Johnson, botha, and fat round props smashing each other not hanging out on the wing...

Chjw131 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:In keeping with the boards recent attempt to make XV's for everything I feel a 'misused talent XV' coming along:

1.Stevens - not a loosehead
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.Sanderson - not an 8

9.
10.Cipriani - picked a player without a complete game then dropped him for not having a complete game...

11.Varndell - played to early then discarded
12.Allen - see above
13.Tait - see above
14.Banahan
15.Monye

To be fair Monye played one game at FB which we know was awful. He played 15 times (?) as a wing for England and did reasonably ok but I don't think we could say he was a vast talent who was misused by England.

I agree that Varndell and possibly Allen were played too early. Also Stevens probably not a top end loosehead but lest we forget that most of his appearances were at TH or on the 22 man bench for England when we had to have a prop to cover both sides.

Tait has 38 caps for England. He played some superb games and was dropped ultimately for a run of poor form. Hardly ruined by England I would say. Banahan was more than likely misused by England and his confidence suffered hugely as a result. He didn't help himself by getting stopped by Shane Williams 5m out though.

Monye was doing pretty well, and was a Lion before he was needlessly moved to 15 for England (and Quins to facilitate this) then his form magically collapsed. Read into that what you will

GF completely agree on the likes of Deacon and whilst he had some ineffectual games for England his run at 2011 6N and RWC was really very good indeed.

Slater maybe the best replacement but Attwood was genuinely showing some form prior to getting injured. Garvey going to Bath with GGold will be excellent for him I think. Fearns is another who's come on well but suffered from injury.

Chequered, I think Monye was a bit of a surprise as a Lions tourist and came in for some criticism after the first test. He had played well for England but I don't think one game at FB ruined his form/career from then on in.

Regarding the Monster second row...

I was chatting to my friends about the best carrying pack we could put out and we noticed how few genuine heavy traffic carriers England have. Who out of the current pack can you rely on to make heavy yards when the game slows down and gets close? We could only come up with Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs and Chris Robshaw (although you rarely see barging runs from Robshaw a la SO'B). It will improve when Ben Morgan comes back in, but everybody else seems to get stopped on or behind the gain-line. What we need is some:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mZ0sSStW6Y !!!!!

I personally think that the inability of England's forwards to get over the gain-line has been the reason for the lack of tries. We aren't going forward and sucking in defenders to create spaces out wide.

The enforcer (or monster) may be a myth, but the need for guys to get you over the gain line isn't.

Cumbrian wrote:Regarding the Monster second row...

I was chatting to my friends about the best carrying pack we could put out and we noticed how few genuine heavy traffic carriers England have. Who out of the current pack can you rely on to make heavy yards when the game slows down and gets close? We could only come up with Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs and Chris Robshaw (although you rarely see barging runs from Robshaw a la SO'B). It will improve when Ben Morgan comes back in, but everybody else seems to get stopped on or behind the gain-line. What we need is some:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mZ0sSStW6Y !!!!!

I personally think that the inability of England's forwards to get over the gain-line has been the reason for the lack of tries. We aren't going forward and sucking in defenders to create spaces out wide.

The enforcer (or monster) may be a myth, but the need for guys to get you over the gain line isn't.

It's interesting that in a lot of clubs this role is filled by foreigners. Especially in the backrow. Just a few examples:

Louw (Bath)
Quera/Kalamafoni (Glos)
Fa'Asavalu (Quins)
Johnson (Wasps)
Manoa/Van Velts (Saints)
Powell (Sale)
Brown/Burger/Joubert (Saracens)

Not many good EQ ball carriers playing week in week out in the backrows for their clubs who aren't A. too young/inexperienced (Fearns,Vunipola) B. Too old (Easter) C. Average (Crane, Waldrom)

yappysnap wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Regarding the Monster second row...

I was chatting to my friends about the best carrying pack we could put out and we noticed how few genuine heavy traffic carriers England have. Who out of the current pack can you rely on to make heavy yards when the game slows down and gets close? We could only come up with Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs and Chris Robshaw (although you rarely see barging runs from Robshaw a la SO'B). It will improve when Ben Morgan comes back in, but everybody else seems to get stopped on or behind the gain-line. What we need is some:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mZ0sSStW6Y !!!!!

I personally think that the inability of England's forwards to get over the gain-line has been the reason for the lack of tries. We aren't going forward and sucking in defenders to create spaces out wide.

The enforcer (or monster) may be a myth, but the need for guys to get you over the gain line isn't.

It's interesting that in a lot of clubs this role is filled by foreigners. Especially in the backrow. Just a few examples:

Louw (Bath)
Quera/Kalamafoni (Glos)
Fa'Asavalu (Quins)
Johnson (Wasps)
Manoa/Van Velts (Saints)
Powell (Sale)
Brown/Burger/Joubert (Saracens)

Not many good EQ ball carriers playing week in week out in the backrows for their clubs who aren't A. too young/inexperienced (Fearns,Vunipola) B. Too old (Easter) C. Average (Crane, Waldrom)

Agree Yappy it tends to be foreign 'go-to' guys. Vunipola is in the mould of an Alberts in terms of his carrying. Although I agree he's very raw his power is quite something. Morgan is very similar but needs a bit more steam up first. They're both quality carriers but as I and others have said hundreds of times beofre and as Cumbrian points out above, there needs to be some balance of carrying in the pack. Robshaw carries but he does so in more of a reset or 'tidying' role not a go forward carrier.

I think in a pack you need four to five good heavy traffic carriers including a hooker, prop, SR and porbably two backrowers. Fearns for example is young and untested but is another who is a great close contact carrier. Here's an idea of what I think (in an ideal world) would make a good balanced pack keeping England's traditional strengths:

1. M Vunipola
2. T Youngs
3. D Cole
4. D Attwood
5. J Launchbury
6. C Fearns
7. M Kvesic
8. B Morgan

16. R Buchanan 17. J Marler (to focus on breakdown skills) 18. H Thomas 19. E Slater 20. B Vunipola

That would give some heavy options carrying but also breakdown work and ruck clearing. Kvesic also carries well and covers across the BR. You could put Fraser in there instead and achieve similar.

Chjw131 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:chjw131 - I know I was just poking some fun at the number of weird and wonderful XV threads we see on these boards more than anything. Also it was a 'misused' XV rather than a 'players who were ruined' one and whilst I agree Monte played very well in most his games and Tait had some brilliant moments I'd also argue that they were misused by the management at times in how/where they were played!

Apologies I took it a bit too seriously again. One day i'll develop a sense of lightheartedness.

No need to apologise, one day I'll develop the ability to take things seriously!

On your last post I agree completely that without Morgan the England pack in the 6N were lacking real go forward. I'd argue that we weren't missing players who can get over the gainline in the tight exchanges, e.g. close to rucks, as Cole, Parling and Launchberry are pretty good at this and Tom Youngs is exceptional at it. What I thought we were missing was forward carriers capable of carrying the ball hard up the middle at pace. The sort of guys who can come flying onto the ball in the centres and crash over the gainline.

If we look at the pack Lancaster choose when lacking Morgan we had none of this hence why it was frustrating not to see Billy V selected when he could've been a like for like albeit raw replacement. Without Morgan we then started looking purely to Tuilagi for this go forward once again and it was simply too predictable.

I actually like the look of that pack you've selected there. It is a problem with the current guys in the squad that we've got an excellent group of forwards who don't necessarily complement each other in a pack.

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole 4.Launchberry 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan

That would be my choice at full strength but for it to be effective the game would need to be played at a huge tempo (such as the NZ game) otherwise I fear they will struggle in arm wrestles with the likes of SA and Wales.

From this weekends live games i'd have the following pack:

1. Marler
2. Buchanan
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Slater
6. Wood (c)
7. Fraser
8. Morgan

Assuming that Youngs and Robshaw are away with the Lions. Launchberry is benched so that we can see how the Slater/Parling combo works.

yappy. Is Morgan back playing again now?