England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

Seeing as he's not been picked for the Lions I wonder if we'll see Robshaw tour but only play a little part in the Tests. His presence with the squad will be very usefull to help bring on the youngsters and impart his experience. Also it'd give the coaches to have a dabble at 6. Robshaw 7. Wallace/Kvesic/Fraser 8. Morgan

Personally i would just say Chris...have a nice long summer off...and get ready because we then begin a two year intense run to the 2015 WC.

Yappy, no thats 3...im a big fan of Lowe as well...i think quins backs look far more fluid and effective with him at 13.

I don't think my players to call up has really changed since the start of this thread so I won't just repeat what has been said above.

Generally speaking most people seem to have broadly similar squads (which is a rarity in itself!). It will be interesting to see what Lancaster does as he has put a big emphasis on making the squad like a 'club', so for that reason I sadly feel that he might not make as many changes as some (myself included) would like.

For example, in my mind Sarries are probably the favourites to win the league and with that in mind, it would be wishful thinking to assume that Goode and Ashton would be told to take an extended break.

I really hope that the absence of Tuilagi allows a real alternative to emerge. I had thought it might be between Trinder and Lowe, but both seem to have fallen away a bit. Tompkins will be very interesting to watch.

Speaking of Exe, am I the only one who wouldnt have complained if Arscott got the 15 shirt for the non-tests? I think he's a very good player.

Any one know when SL will announce his tour party?

Next Wednesday mate

Cheers GF.
I like that they can get the play-off games out of the way for one last look at those players.

I'm currently trending towards a back line like this for England -

Care, Burns, Wade, Twelvetrees, Tompkins, May, Brown

SL may opt for the club pairing of Barritt and Tompkins though.

Forwards are a bit trickier - but personal preferance at present -
Corbis-Webber-Wilson
Slater-Lawes
Wood
Fraser
Morgan

(Robshaw being rested) Guys like B.Vaunipola, Kvesic, Launchbury on the bench.

You think there's a chance they may try Daly at full back or just go with the tried and tested (or even play Brown in his position!)?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You think there's a chance they may try Daly at full back or just go with the tried and tested (or even play Brown in his position!)?

I hope not, Daly is an excellent young centre but looks like a liability at 15 from the matches I've seen

ChequeredJersey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You think there's a chance they may try Daly at full back or just go with the tried and tested (or even play Brown in his position!)?

I hope not, Daly is an excellent young centre but looks like a liability at 15 from the matches I've seen

Have to admit I've only seen him at outside centre for Wasps but think he came through Engladn U20s at full back. Too much comp at OC at moment though.

I would like to see Brown to have a run out in the 15 spot.
Daly is a possibility for the squad, I'd be happier taking him over Goode.

SL may opt for the club pairing of Barritt and Tompkins though.

Prop David,

Id be dissapointed if he went for this one. There isnt a better chance to have a look at a more creative 12...and in 36 we have a guy who "potentially" (im not saying he is the saviour or anything) who has both the physicality and the creativity that many England fans are looking for.

Besides as per Robshaw etc, Barritts had a huge tiring season and i think he deserves a good summer off.

CJ, Daly played 15 for the Saxons game v Scotland...nothing outstanding...but there have been murmurs that this is the position that they ultimately see him as.

Daly played full back for the saxons against Scotland.
I didn't see the game bug the reports sails he was poopie

GeordieFalcon wrote:

SL may opt for the club pairing of Barritt and Tompkins though.

Prop David,

Id be dissapointed if he went for this one. There isnt a better chance to have a look at a more creative 12...and in 36 we have a guy who "potentially" (im not saying he is the saviour or anything) who has both the physicality and the creativity that many England fans are looking for.

Besides as per Robshaw etc, Barritts had a huge tiring season and i think he deserves a good summer off.

CJ Daly played 15 for the Saxons game v Scotland...nothing outstanding...but there have been murmurs that this is the position that they ultimately see him as.

Shame we have loads of 15s (Brown, Goode, Fode, May, Tait, Pennell was great against us, Abs, Miller,then all the young flyers) and fewer centres (though Trinder, Lowe, Tomkins, Tuilagi not exactly a poor selection)

Any news on Barritt's ankle. I guess he might not make the arg tour anyways

Geordie - I'd be dissapointed with that combo too.

I saw that saxons game against Scotland. I dont think that any of the players that day did themselves any favours.
They had their arses handed to them-not on the score board- they just failed to play the conditions.

Yeah i was at the game...only Fraser, and when he came on Slater did anything of Notice.

CJ its all very well having all those FB's and centres (dont forget Joseph and Banahan)....but its pointless if we dont have any yardage from the forwards and a fh who cant pass the length of himself....

I really hope Burns is selected and shows what he can do on this tour.

That Saxons team was -
Elliot Daly (London Wasps);
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby),
Joel Tomkins (Saracens),
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins),
Tom Biggs (Bath Rugby);
George Ford (Leicester Tigers),
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens);
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors),
Joe Gray (Harlequins),
Paul Doran-Jones (Northampton Saints),
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers),
George Robson (Harlequins),
George Kruis (Saracens),
Will Fraser (Saracens),
Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers, captain).

Replacements: Rob Buchanan, Nick Wood, Kieran Brookes, Ed Slater, Jamie Gibson, Joe Simpson, George Lowe, Kyle Eastmond.

Yeah they were poor...but then im just not a fan of the likes of Robson, Gray, and even PDJ who looked poor. (i know i put him in my squad but who else is available...do we take a youngster for experience?)

There was no oomph in the pack and Ford was possibly the worst FH performance ive seen in a long time.
The conditions were poor...but the Scots were just like a pack of raging passionate celts that wanted to win.

England like the saxons need a couple of bulldozers in their pack...

Saxons were definately lacking power in that game.
As a quins fan im not happy about PDJ coming to the stoop - not an equal to Johnston. He has had plenty of oportunity to develop, playing in big scrummaging teams like Gloucester and Saints and failed to step up.

Would prefer that SL takes Wilson and 1 other, younger TH. H.Thomas is an option there.

H.Thomas will probably be in there after Wilson.

Then its just youngsters really...Scott Wilson, whos been seriously good...but thats only in random games in the championship for us...and Sinkler and Knight (for Quins and Glos) who i wouldnt like to comment on if they were ready for a tour or not...

Disappointing

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/english-rugby-premiership/9189/elliot-daly-benefits-from-15-love-at-first-sight/

Personally I see Daly as centre foremost but given his versatility, pace and great kicking game I think he'd be a perfect player for the last bench spot. Trying new partnerships in tests could always see something go wrong, so having a guy with experience at 13/15, the pace to play wing and the kicking game to take pressure of the half-backs would only be an asset off the bench.

9.Care 10.Burns 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Lowe 14.Wade 15.Brown
21.Wigglesworth 22.Flood 23.Daly

In my eyes that has a very good mix of experience, talent and plenty of pace! Add in the huge boots of Twelvetrees and Brown to take pressure of Care/Burns if necessary and I'd love to see that backline given a go.

Realistically I wouldn't be surprised to see something more like this from Lancaster though:

9.Care 10.Flood 11.Wade or May 12.Barritt 13.Tomkins 14.Ashton 15.Goode or Brown
21.Dickson 22.Burns 23.Twelvetrees

If Corbisiero were on form and playing, and we had one of our hookers back, this England team could probably beat the Lions (as long as they don't play, and figure out how to use, Tuilagi)

Swainston and balmain and brookes MIGHT kick on in the next couple of years.
Whatever happened to tom mercey,he was one touted for big things cant even make saints bench,hardly any game time since he left sarries.Rupert harden was another sniffing around before his injury,plus don't forget shaun knight.
Plenty for Rowntree to work with.

There is a thread on the Leicester unoffy forum that says that Ed Slater has a torn tricep which may need an operation.

The same thread says that they are going to take a look at Daniel Bowden next season (he qualifies on residency) which I am really not impressed about.

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s103.htm?106,14012337

maybe he got his months mixed up and thought it was April 1st

The thread also says Flood will be left behind. But it could just be someone making it all up.

Daly at FB does make sense - as the article says he has everything you need to play there, which I don't think any of the other contenders do, and he can really use the space to good effect. It looks like he himself hasn't made his mind up - but what chance in the short-term of displacing Tuilagi?

No point in taking Robshaw - there is plenty of experience in the coaching group and the best way to gain experience is to play, not to have a 5 minute chat with Robshaw (something which can happen back in England) having watched him in training and in your position in the matchday side.

Daniel Bowden????!!!!! Really...FFS!!!!!

Can we not please pick ENGLISH players....

Burns, Farrell, Ford, Flood, Slade at Exeter, Joel Hodgson, Clegg....surely we can get a top FH group out of those...and im sure theres more coming through...

Dissapointing that Slater may be out...but that would mean Attwood v Slater becomes Attwood starts...

I am hoping as Dave says it is just rumour/ someone telling porkies. It would be a massive shame if Slater wasn't fit.

With Bowden, I would be sceptical but I've heard whisperings about this before from other sources. I was actually under the impression (misguided it seems) that he is already qualified through English ancestry. I'm hoping it is not true, because I'm sick of the stick we already get on this score.

England's interest in Bowden goes back to his time at LI, when Martin Johnson was supposedly keeping tabs on him.

He's certainly got the talent, but needs to stay injury free.

Mahis

Im getting to the stage now i dont care if they have talent if they're born and raised in another country and qualify on residency...England are in serious danger of becoming a joke. Can we not produce our OWN players....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mahis

Im getting to the stage now i dont care if they have talent if they're born and raised in another country and qualify on residency...England are in serious danger of becoming a joke. Can we not produce our OWN players....

Agreed - I made the same point myself about Ben Botica, who is also in the frame apparently

Yup he's another...

If Flood does miss out then who are the fly halves?

I don't know why but I have a funny feeling that Charlie might get a recall!

I know Hodgson has retired but we thought the same of Matt Stevens.....

I would would actually like to see this backline:

9.Care
10.Hodgson
11.May
12.36
13.Tomkins
14.Wade
15.Brown

You might say why? Why not Burns - Burns is still in experienced.

Hodgson has experience, he's still playing well. Will help this relatively inexperienced backline.

I wouldnt like to see Charlie back - that would be a big mistake.

If Flood is rested then fine, same for Robshaw and some of the other more established guys.

I think 10 is covered - Freddie Burns is in the seat, back up could be 36 off the bench. The tour is only 3 games isnt it?

Who would be back up to Care though - I still feel that Wigglesworth would be a backwards step. Perhaps Lee Dickson.

Joe Simpson potentially PropDavid. He has world cup experience let's not forget!

If Flood doesnt go, then i gues its Burns and Ford, the two EPS FH's left.

Who would be back up to Care though - I still feel that Wigglesworth would be a backwards step. Perhaps Lee Dickson.

What about young Robson...he's played well hasnt he.
Has Joe Simpsons passing improved? I always viewed him as a winger playing SH...

Probably will be someone like Dickson though.

I don't think wigglesworth would be a backward step,good player with cool head who offers something different.
We place too much emphasis on finding the 'next big superstar',we sometimes forget about players we already have.
A lot of scrummies get better as they mature as players.
This forum can be a bit ageist

This tour is the only chance for Burns to play without any pressure on him, if we put Hodgson in at 10 instead it's just delaying Burns progression. We'll then end up having to play him in his first cap against either a top three team of the media feeding frenzy of the 6N's.

Burns can handle the pressure as he showed when he came on against the AB'S and slotted 2 pens.
Hodgson Is retired and wI'll stay that way.
Funnily enough I think if Stevens has a good tour with the lions he may make a u-turn and make himself available to England again.

Burns can handle the pressure as he showed when he came on against the AB'S and slotted 2 pens.
Hodgson Is retired and wI'll stay that way.
Funnily enough I think if Stevens has a good tour with the lions he may make a u-turn and make himself available to England again.

Surely not Stevens....time to let that one go...

We have Cole, Wilson who is steaming back to the form of his early years, PDJ who can hopefully become another of Quins TH rejuvanation stories, not to mention Sinkler, Scott Wilson, Knight, Henry Thomas etc etc all coming through...

Theres enough there to not have to revert to Stevens....

Hmm, I am undecided on Stevens. He is still only 30 years old and could easily have another 3-4 or even 5 years left in him. On the other hand, his performances for England weren't actually that good over the last few years.

Also you've got to question if the desire is there, he retired at 29 a shadow of the player he was before the ban. Lets remember, he was never the most destructive scrummager, it was his work around the field that was notable and he stopped doing that.

The Lions may light a fire in the belly for a time, but will that be enough to see him through the gruelling training schedules leading up to the World Cup? I'm not so sure.

Therefore you've got to think, do we give time to Stevens or someone like Henry Thomas? He will be around 23 by the time the next World Cup comes round and as third choice tight-head we could use the chance to give him international experience. If handled right, he could have 10-15 caps by 2015 and be ready to challenge Wilson for the back up spot on a level(ish) footing.

All I mean is that hd might get a taste for it again.
I'm not saying we should pick him.

If he could prove his desire and conditioning, I would genuinely consider him as an option. It only takes an injury to Cole and we are in serious trouble at tight-head.

Let's not forget Argentina will be a hostile land. De Kirchner has poured enough bile out towards us in recent times and the while Thatcher funeral will have fanned the flames. The Argentinean public will be baying for blood. Add to that Argentina have a good squad with experienced options.

If we go a bit to adventurous in our squad selection the young guns might find themselves out of their depth very quickly.

Indeed Sam, and with no WC points or anything really to lose....this is a great chance to test the metal of the young guns...

A team of talented, aggressive youngsters with a smattering of old heads or experience (such as Wood, Care and Foden )in certain positions could be a very interesting lesson for Lancs.

Should we start a poll if Callum Clark will be taken?

I think if we want him to be taken and whether SL will take his favourite would produce 2 diferent poll results Geordie!

I agree Bathman...!!