England summer tour of Argentina

First topic message reminder :

Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

Can someone please tell me what the score is with Clark.
What do the coaches or selectors see in him?

Saints fans any input??

Chequeredjersey and Bluestonevedder I think Fraser is injured. Out for the season I believe.

He certainly hasn't been in any Saracens game since being injured vs Gloucester.

propdavid_london wrote:First impressions are good. There are some names that I would question though -
Calum Clark, PDJ, Tom Johnson, David Paice, Wigglesworth, Yarde.

Would have liked to see -
Wallace, Trinder, Sharples, maybe Rupert Harden,

Only 1 stand off!

On paper the team could look quite good though - I would like to see -
Corbis, Webber, Wilson
Launchbury, Slater,
Wood, Kvesic, Morgan
L.Dickson
Freddie Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tompkins
May
Brown

Exactly the team I'd have too.

Harden is injured btw. He won't be back in the frame for another month.

propdavid_london wrote:First impressions are good. There are some names that I would question though -
Calum Clark, PDJ, Tom Johnson, David Paice, Wigglesworth, Yarde.

Would have liked to see -
Wallace, Trinder, Sharples, maybe Rupert Harden,

Only 1 stand off!

On paper the team could look quite good though - I would like to see -
Corbis, Webber, Wilson
Launchbury, Slater,
Wood, Kvesic, Morgan
L.Dickson
Freddie Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tompkins
May
Brown

It's a good team. However in my pessimistic mood I expect to see Goode at 15, Brown on one wing, probably Strettle on the other, Clark at 7

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey and Bluestonevedder I think Fraser is injured. Out for the season I believe.

He certainly hasn't been in any Saracens game since being injured vs Gloucester.

Shame, much rather have him (or Wallace, but Fraser deserves it more) than Clark

sickofwendy true no Daly is surprising.

I suppose he's now seen as a FB by Lancaster - he ain't getting past Brown,Goode or Foden in that position.

Strettle is in there because he's shown some good form in recent months - scored 8 tries this season.

I would rather see Jamie Elliott in the wing spot instead of Yarde. Yarde has just 3 tries in 19 matches.

Elliott has 9 tries in 15 matches but is on no one's radar.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:First impressions are good. There are some names that I would question though -
Calum Clark, PDJ, Tom Johnson, David Paice, Wigglesworth, Yarde.

Would have liked to see -
Wallace, Trinder, Sharples, maybe Rupert Harden,

Only 1 stand off!

On paper the team could look quite good though - I would like to see -
Corbis, Webber, Wilson
Launchbury, Slater,
Wood, Kvesic, Morgan
L.Dickson
Freddie Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tompkins
May
Brown

It's a good team. However in my pessimistic mood I expect to see Goode at 15, Brown on one wing, probably Strettle on the other, Clark at 7

As Clark plays there for his club that seems unlikely to be part of the plan. Far better to shoehorn him in elsewhere.

Joking aside, that is a good team and I would be happy to see that get a run out. With my slightly biased Bath hat on Attwood at lock would be nice, but no changes from me otherwise.

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey and Bluestonevedder I think Fraser is injured. Out for the season I believe.

He certainly hasn't been in any Saracens game since being injured vs Gloucester.

Didn't realise, thanks beshocked

A team of those left behind
Daly
Ashton
Trnder
Barritt
Monye
Flood
Care
Mullan
Lindsay
Knight
Garvey
Kitchenor
Haskell
Robshaw
Dowson


Which would you rather represent ENGLAND

sickofwendy wrote:A team of those left behind
Abendanon
Ashton
Daly
Barritt
Monye
Flood
Care
Mullan
Lindsay
Knight
Garvey
Kitchener
Haskell
Robshaw
Easter


Which would you rather represent ENGLAND

Think this one's better. I'd rather have SL's team though, except with a few players swapped over. Plus our Lions back. Except Stevens

A team of those left behind
Daly
Ashton
Trnder
Barritt
Monye
Flood
Care
Mullan
Lindsay
Knight
Garvey
Kitchenor
Haskell
Robshaw
Dowson


Which would you rather represent ENGLAND

Yes, Yarde was a bit of a surprise to me too. He didnt stand out as anything better than others that could be selected.

That Eliot Daly has played on the wing - scoring an exceptional try down the 5m channel.
Jamie Elliot from saints.
Sharples
Monahan - that young looking Glouces kid.

Heck, Tom Williams has scored a good number of trys this season - more than Yarde.

The five left behind look very much like those who are on standbye for the lions. If so it's a smart decision from Lancaster in that it should minimise potential disruption to the tour.

sickofwendy wrote:A team of those left behind
Daly
Ashton
Trnder
Barritt
Monye
Flood
Care
Mullan
Lindsay
Knight
Garvey
Kitchenor
Haskell
Robshaw
Dowson


Which would you rather represent ENGLAND

Like the backs but not a big fan of that pack bar Robshaw and Kitchener.

My backline would be

15.Daly
14.Ashton
13.Lowe
12.Barritt
11.Varndell
10.Flood
9.Care

If you include pack left behind

1.Wood
2.George
3.Harden
4.Borthwick
5.Kitchener/Kruis
6.Robshaw
7.Fraser (he's not going after all)if not him then Wallace.
8.Easter

sickofwendy wrote:A team of those left behind
Daly
Ashton
Trnder
Barritt
Monye
Flood
Care
Mullan
Lindsay
Knight
Garvey
Kitchenor
Haskell
Robshaw
Dowson


Which would you rather represent ENGLAND

Lancaster's

Does Gloucester just have a conveyor belt of class backs coming through....??

You know, really, its not a bad squad when at most we can only pick 3/4 who we wouldnt really want in there...Clark, Paice, Tom Johnson...and even Johnson is a cracking club player, to be fair to him...

propdavid_london wrote:Yes, Yarde was a bit of a surprise to me too. He didnt stand out as anything better than others that could be selected.

That Eliot Daly has played on the wing - scoring an exceptional try down the 5m channel.
Jamie Elliot from saints.
Sharples
Monahan - that young looking Glouces kid.

Heck, Tom Williams has scored a good number of trys this season - more than Yarde.

He's more likely to be playing USA and Canada with the Irish squad.

How many tests is it? You think we could see a different FB in each test? (not a particularly good way of comparing them, tbh)

propdavid_london wrote:Yes, Yarde was a bit of a surprise to me too. He didnt stand out as anything better than others that could be selected.

That Eliot Daly has played on the wing - scoring an exceptional try down the 5m channel.
Jamie Elliot from saints.
Sharples
Monahan - that young looking Glouces kid.

Heck, Tom Williams has scored a good number of trys this season - more than Yarde.

Yarde has played well this year in a LI team that has been struggling for most of the season. He's a young guy with alot of potential too, which fits if this is supposed to be a developmental tour.

Daly isn't really a winger from what i've seen, and I've much rather England play with 2 wingers, rather than what we've had in the past. Shane Monahan is Irish, and Tom Williams is 30 this year, so perhaps a bit too old to be making a debut it a rebuilding squad. Sharples would have been a good call.

Ah, fair enough. He looks like a bright prospect - tore it up in last seasons JP Morgan 7's.

Isnt Tom Johnson a bit past it too - thought he was relatively late to get recognition.
Playing devils advovate here a bit - I dont expect Tom Williams to get in the squad. Although I feel that Sam Smith may be good enough in a short space of time (certainly infront of Yarde).

Sharples seems to have gone from 1st choice to about 9th in 6 months.

sickofwendy wrote:Sharples seems to have gone from 1st choice to about 9th in 6 months.

I think he managed it in one game. Started against Australia and hasn't been seen since.

England summer 2013 squad

If you break it down in to positions...its not actually too bad at all...

LH- Corbs & Marler
Hooker- Paice & Buchanan & Webber
TH-Wilson & PDJ & Thomas
SR- Attwood, Slater, Lawes, Launchbury
Bs's - Wood & Johnson
OS's - Kvesic & Clark
No.8's - Morgan & Vunipola

SH's - Dickson & Wigglesworth
FH's - Burns (Goode Back up)
IC's - Twelvetrees,
OC's - Joseph, Tomkins, Eastmond
Wings- Wade, May, Strettle, Yarde
FB's - Goode, Brown, Foden

thomh wrote:

sickofwendy wrote:Sharples seems to have gone from 1st choice to about 9th in 6 months.

I think he managed it in one game. Started against Australia and hasn't been seen since.

He was poorly positioned for one try. if only SL had taken the same tack with Ashton...

Sharples did pick up a knock against Chiefs, but I can't imagine it would have ruled him out. He's actually had a pretty decent season for Glaws. He may have not scored a hat full of tries as he has rarely been given the ball in any kind of space, but his defensive work rather ironically has been excellent.

HongKongCherry wrote:

He was poorly positioned for one try. if only SL had taken the same tack with Ashton...

One try yes, but I seem to remember Australia repeatedly making breaks down his side in the first half.

Yarde was one of the best wingers I have seen in opposition teams at WR. As I have seen little else of LI hard to say how he has gone across the whole season. Sharples face clearly does not fit however.

Garvey looked really poor this weekend.

Also, with Robshaw not touring (admittedly, he probably does need the rest)- what odds on Wood or Brown (Kelly) being called up for the Lions now?

thomh wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:

He was poorly positioned for one try. if only SL had taken the same tack with Ashton...

One try yes, but I seem to remember Australia repeatedly making breaks down his side in the first half.

Sharples was at fault twice in that game for his positioning. There is the argument that he was playing on the unfamiliar left wing, but I feel a winger should be able to play both sides. I have no argument that he could have been better in that match, but he's dropped out of all recognition since then and I feel SL has treated him pretty poorly. If only he had a copy of those photos Clark has...

I think it's a good squad on the whole, and I am happy.

Despite his lack of recent form and fitness, I am glad to see Joseph retained.

How many of Clarke, Johnson and Paice are due to EPS restrictions? Are they in place for this tour? As much as i like TJ he really isn't the future for England at BS.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:How many of Clarke, Johnson and Paice are due to EPS restrictions? Are they in place for this tour? As much as i like TJ he really isn't the future for England at BS.

I don't think EPS restrictions play a part. Anyone can be picked for England, but the EPS players are guaranteed to be released typically outside of the ?International windows. As it is the end of the season for most of the players the EPS shouldn't make any difference at this time. (But I stand to be corrected)

I think you're right.

So I make that:

Saracens - 4
Leicester - 1
Quins - 3
Northampton - 6
Glaws - 4
Exeter - 1
Bath - 4
Wasps - 3
London Irish - 4
Sale - 1
Worcester - 1


While the other 3 play-off sides almost contribute a whole team, Leicester supply 1 player. Frankly they should be ashamed of their inability to support for the England team

The thread on the Leicester board of rugbynetwork has gone into meltdown about it. Posters there have never forgiven Lancaster for replacing Martin Johnson. Seems inevitable though given how many of their players who might otherwise have gone are going with the Lions.

Interesting,

Clark is listed as 6'4 and 17st 4. Almost identical to Tom Wood.

Likewise he is described as "abraisive, physical and equally athletic in the lineout as he is in the loose."

Do you think the coaches are hoping he turns out as good as Tom Wood who for me is world class, equally adept in the 7 role.

Is that the way we are going...two identikit flankers who do it all, with aggression and physicality yet able to scale the heights in the lineout...combined with a monster 8.

LondonTiger wrote:So I make that:

Saracens - 4
Leicester - 1
Quins - 3
Northampton - 6
Glaws - 4
Exeter - 1
Bath - 4
Wasps - 3
London Irish - 4
Sale - 1
Worcester - 1


While the other 3 play-off sides almost contribute a whole team, Leicester supply 1 player. Frankly they should be ashamed of their inability to support for the England team

Absolutely! The 1 player sent over is injured and the 6 who should be playing are going to be warming a bench for 5 weeks!

That pesky Richard Cockerill, manipulating selectors to his advantage

thomh wrote:The thread on the Leicester board of rugbynetwork has gone into meltdown about it. Posters there have never forgiven Lancaster for replacing Martin Johnson. Seems inevitable though given how many of their players who might otherwise have gone are going with the Lions.

Well if they are in meltdown they are silly then. TBH I thought that only Kitchener, Slater and Ford stood any chance of going. Based on form not surprised Ford is left behind - and personally while I like Slater, I do feel Kitchener is more likely to have a decent international career.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:First impressions are good. There are some names that I would question though -
Calum Clark, PDJ, Tom Johnson, David Paice, Wigglesworth, Yarde.

Would have liked to see -
Wallace, Trinder, Sharples, maybe Rupert Harden,

Only 1 stand off!

On paper the team could look quite good though - I would like to see -
Corbis, Webber, Wilson
Launchbury, Slater,
Wood, Kvesic, Morgan
L.Dickson
Freddie Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tompkins
May
Brown

It's a good team. However in my pessimistic mood I expect to see Goode at 15, Brown on one wing, probably Strettle on the other, Clark at 7

As Clark plays there for his club that seems unlikely to be part of the plan. Far better to shoehorn him in elsewhere.

Joking aside, that is a good team and I would be happy to see that get a run out. With my slightly biased Bath hat on Attwood at lock would be nice, but no changes from me otherwise.

How good is it that we actually have some internationals? Albeit in a hugely depleted squad.

HongKongCherry wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:How many of Clarke, Johnson and Paice are due to EPS restrictions? Are they in place for this tour? As much as i like TJ he really isn't the future for England at BS.

I don't think EPS restrictions play a part. Anyone can be picked for England, but the EPS players are guaranteed to be released typically outside of the ?International windows. As it is the end of the season for most of the players the EPS shouldn't make any difference at this time. (But I stand to be corrected)

Cheers HKC, was hoping that would explain it but ho-hum!

Good squad - I'm pleased SL went with youth and particularly pleased Barritt has been rested. We should see a combination of Twelvetrees and Eastmond at IC, which will make a nice change. It'll be interested to see who SL will use as the second FH - I reckon Goode but wouldn't totally rule out Eastmond.

I think JJ is lucky to be there ahead of Daly, and I'd probably have taken Wallace instead of Clark, but coaches are allowed to have their favourites.

Wallace instead of Clarke would be my choice too DaveM. I really don't think he fits in anywhere, and certainly hasn't justified his choice with recent form. Still, SL clearly sees something in him.

LondonTiger wrote:

thomh wrote:The thread on the Leicester board of rugbynetwork has gone into meltdown about it. Posters there have never forgiven Lancaster for replacing Martin Johnson. Seems inevitable though given how many of their players who might otherwise have gone are going with the Lions.

Well if they are in meltdown they are silly then. TBH I thought that only Kitchener, Slater and Ford stood any chance of going. Based on form not surprised Ford is left behind - and personally while I like Slater, I do feel Kitchener is more likely to have a decent international career.

Meltdown may be overstating it in fairness. I was under the impression that Ford's form had improved by the way? Am I wrong about that?

anyone know the UK KO times and who is showing?

Apparently Fraser needs a shoulder op this summer. Still, this is a good opportuity to have a really good look at Kvesic.

Can any of Launchbury, Lawes and Wood call a lineout? If so, it could be a hell of an athletic pack, especially if Buchanan gets a game.

Robshaw might find himself out of the Eng team for good. He will certainly not be called up as injury cover for the lions...R Jones is in pole position there.

Pleased to see that Lancaster has gone with youth but disappointed to see quite SO little experience in the side. I feel Care and Flood could have done with traveling given they've lost their places in the 6 Nations so would be very hungry for a start. Also disappointed with some of the selections elsewhere:

Dickson - With Care rested I guess he is next in line but would rather have seen Robson or Simpson travel with Wigglesworth as the first choice.

Joseph and Eastmond over Lowe and Daly in the centres also frustrates me as I don't feel Eastmond has the all round game quite yet and Joseph hasn't done anything this season really. Lowe is a really clever player with bags of pace who could allow us to play in a different way and Daly is just electric.

Paice over Lindsay is simply failing to look to the future IMO.

Calum Clark whilst unsurprising is completely undeserved at the moment in my eyes. He is talented no doubt but has shown little of note this season. As for the back row player who could've replaced him Fraser has done a hell of a lot this season to deserve a go.

Also only one FH in the squad is pushing it even for a short tour - whilst Goode and Twelvetrees cover ten they only cover it and we shouldn't be looking at a situation where they start at FH.

1.Corbs
2.Webber
3.Wilson
4.Slater
5.Launchberry
6.Wood
7.Kvesic
8.Morgan

9.Wigglesworth
10.Burns

11.May
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tomkins - Would have loved Lowe or Daly there!
14.Wade
15.Brown

16.Buchanan 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Lawes 20.Vunipola 21.Dickson 22.Goode 23.Joseph - need someone who can cover centre so Joseph takes that last spot

That's what I'd go for. By the time we're in Argentina I wouldn't be surprised to see Clark at fly half just before opening the batting with Alastair Cook for the first Ashes test though

king_carlos wrote:Calum Clark whilst unsurprising is completely undeserved at the moment in my eyes. He is talented no doubt but has shown little this season. It also looks like Lancasters pet project of pretending his pet project is a second row continues as Slater, Launchberry and Lawes are the only three locks in the squad. With Kitchener, Attwood and Garvey available that isn't right IMO. As for the back row player who could've replaced him Fraser has done a hell of a lot this season...

You must have missed Dave Attwood's selection.