England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Calum Clark whilst unsurprising is completely undeserved at the moment in my eyes. He is talented no doubt but has shown little this season. It also looks like Lancasters pet project of pretending his pet project is a second row continues as Slater, Launchberry and Lawes are the only three locks in the squad. With Kitchener, Attwood and Garvey available that isn't right IMO. As for the back row player who could've replaced him Fraser has done a hell of a lot this season...

You must have missed Dave Attwood's selection.

Ahh shoite. Cheers LT, that's my mistake. Still stand by my views on whether Clark should be in the squad and on how much of an International second row he really is! Corrected that in my post now.

Not really sure what to make of the squad to be honest. There are some selections we're all very pleased with, but let's be honest, if Burns, Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Wade, May etc weren't included then we really would need start asking serious questions. It's the fringe selections and the lingering squad members that are frustrating.

Corbs, Marler - right choices if Corbs is fit enough, but perhaps he could have done with a rest then full pre season to get his knee right.

Webber, Paice, Buchanan - Paice is a poor choice and Lindsay should have his place. The Lancaster thinking will be that he does not want to take 2 uncapped young guys in the same position. But that's a short sighted and conservative approach. Paice will offer nothing and gain nothing.

Wilson, PDJ, Thomas - PDJ hasn't looked like an international player for about 2 years now. Same situation as above really with Knight the other option, but again Lancaster makes the wrong call.

Attwood, Slater, Lawes, Launchbury - good choices. Might have been tempted to give Launchbury a rest and taken Kitchener but overall happy with this group. Hopefully one or more of the other 3 step up and challenge Parling for the long term spot (I don't rate Parling at all).

Wood, Johnson, Kvesic, Clark - Wood will hopefully stand out as the best 6 in the NH that he is, and stake a claim for long term captaincy. Johnson is a solid player but not quite international class. Clark is the least deserving member of the squad. Aside from his violent tendencies he has had a pretty quiet season. Would have preferred Fraser (inj?) and Wallace. Savage another option to cover 4/5/6.

Morgan, Vunipola - no complaints.

Dickson, Wigglesworth - would have liked Danny Care to tour and think he deserves a chance to start and finish some games. Not sure he needs a rest either. These 2 are a bit dull but perhaps their experience isn't a bad idea with the youth elsewhere in the team. I'd have taken 1 of these and 1 of Robson/Spencer if Care really needed a rest.

FH's - Burns - really glad he's being given the chance to stake a claim. I think he's the best of the young 10s and should be first choice. Lack of cover slightly concerning but if he doesn't get injured and plays 4 full games he should emerge as the star of the tour and be starting in November.

Twelvetrees, Eastmond - England's best 12 by a mile and a very exciting wildcard prospect. Glad he's chosen these guys but if he didn't he'd have been mad. Twelvetrees to start (and star) and Eastmond on the bench cover 10/12 would be good. Very pleased Barritt has been left at home as I believe he has been stifling England's attack - lets keep these guys permanently.

Tompkins, Joseph - Tompkins will definitely start and I think he will form a nice midfield with Burns and Twelvetrees. I like Joseph as a player but I'm not sure this tour has come at the right time for him. He's had limited gametime this year and hasn't been great. Lowe, Trinder and Daly will all be disappointed to miss out and are all better options in my view.

Wade, May, Strettle, Yarde - we're all getting excited about May and Wade (including me) but lets just hope he starts them. There is still the potential for a Brown, Strettle, Goode back 3 which would be disastrous. Not sure what Yarde has done to leapfrog Sharples, Biggs and Varndell but he obviously has talent. Strettle has had his best 6 months for Sarries but he's not an international winger and he never will be. Sharples and Biggs for Strettle and Yarde.

Goode, Brown, Foden - please please please anyone but Alex Goode!!!

Thomh
I think wood calls the line at saints.
Could be a good opportunity for launchbury to call it against baabaas to gain some experience .

Calum Clark doesn't belong on a rugby pitch

I think we can now say the international careers of palmer,dowson,deacon,waldrom,botha,monye,jth and varndell are over.

sickofwendy wrote:I think we can now say the international careers of palmer,dowson,deacon,waldrom,botha,monye,jth and varndell are over.

It might be the case - we'll know for sure when the next EPS squads are announced.

My only real gripe is with the lack of cover at 10. Ford maybe should have gone, but the 10 cupboard (quality wise) is pretty thin. Unless SL takes a gamble at some point on trying to rehablitate Cipriani.

Generally I think the squad is pretty good. I agree with other posters on some of the choices.

Paice - As some have said not really a choice for the future and along with GF etc i'd like to have seen Lindsay travel even if only as 3rd choice.

Clark - has done little to really impress this season and i'm leaving aside any issues with his ban. Be it at 6 or 7 (at SR is a joke) there are much more deserving players at present including Kvesic and Wallace at 7 and Wood, Savage, Fearns (who I accept is injured) etc.. at 6.

Johnson - He is in the EPS still and he has played some excellent games for Exeter and England, particularly against the Barbarians. It's a bit left-field but i'd actually like to have seen Baxter have some input and take Dave Ewers from Cheifs. Check him out if you get the chance, a unit.

Yarde - I wouldn't personally have selected him. I'd rather Sharples not be left out in the cold and likewise Biggs. I can see why Lancs has picked him though he's physical (a new Monye) and pretty quick. I don't think we can judge his try-scoring record in a very poor LI team.

Thus replacing those guys i'd like to have seen: Savage/Wallace, Lindsay, Ewers, Sharples.

I'm pleased for Dave Attwood and Ed Slater they have both put in some really strong performances this half of the season and deservedly travel. Does anyone know whether Slater is fit again yet? It's a position we need to strengthen and with the likes of Morgan, Vunipola, the SRs and Kvesic does that mean that beefing up the pack is starting to dawn on Lancs?!

Here's the team I would pick from that squad:

1. A Corbisiero
2. R Buchanan
3. D Wilson
4. D Attwood
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. M Kvesic
8. B Morgan
9. R Wigglesworth
10. F Burns
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. K Eastmond
14. C Wade
15. M Brown

16. R Webber 17. J Marler 18. H Thomas 19. E Slater 20. B Vunipola 21. L Dickson 22. A Goode 23. J Tompkins

I've kept the usual idea of balance at the fore. I selected Buchanan over Webber for his dynamism around the field against what is a pretty heavy English pack. Corbs and Wilson could actually be England's best propping options for a good scrum going forward.

In the SR Lawes becomes the 5 he should be with Attwood giving much more weight around the park and set-piece. We actually don't have a true line-out SR and Wood will be charged with running the line-out. Lawes is an excellent jumper as is Wood and Kvesic.

BR I think has the best balance I have seen of any England back-row since the holy trinity. Kvesic really is a superb player and excellent carrier and Wood's work-rate is eye-watering. Morgan has played well since coming back and adds another carrying option.

That's Corbs, Buchanan, Wilson, Attwood, Kvesic and Morgan who are all excellent carriers. That gives us so many more options than the Wales game.

The backs are good but like other's I don't think i'd have picked Dickson to tour. At HB Wigglesworth gives some stability and good service to Freddie who is a maverick and will certainly get a lot of game time! I think Goode will back up but I wouldn't mind seeing Eastmond have a stab.

In the centre I wanted a foil for 36 rather than a similar player in Tomkins who I think is getting better each game. Eastmond is quick and is used to playing alongside a heavy-duty centre. His time at 12 means he can also pass when necessary!

The wings. Well the wings are just awesome and if they can gel with the excellent Mike Brown they could be one of the best back three in the world in a few years time. I like Foden but he's still not back to top end I feel.

The bench provides impact and Slater/Vunipola also have some nice hands. Dickosn can up the tempo and Tomkins can offload to his heart's content. Marler is a bit more dynamic and in that pack might shine a bit more. Likewise Thomas is another who has the sort of potential that M Vunipola does.

A few people have been questioning Yarde's inclusion, personally I think he's a great addition to the squad. In terms of try scoring he's been hampered by playing in a severely struggling side, but almost every time I've seen him play he impresses me with his workrate, speed, footwork and power. I particularly think that more powerful aspect is an important option to have amongst the other quality wingers we have coming through (it's a shame injury prevented Benjamin from making his case in that regard this season). And statistically I think he compares very well to those left behind.

Yarde - Elliot
19 Matches 15
3 Tries 9
2 Try assist 0
36 Kicks From Hand 15
43 Passes 21
141 Carries 97
1100 Metres carried 643
22 Clean breaks 8
14 Offloads 2
50 Defenders beaten 15
97 Tackles 43
13 Missed tackles 12

Sharples - Biggs
17 Matches 19
3 Tries 4
0 Try assist 3
22 Kicks From Hand 17
49 Passes 8
85 Carries 86
466 Metres carried 606
4 Clean breaks 8
12 Offloads 5
18 Defenders beaten 24
47 Tackles 44
7 Missed tackles 12


Think the squad is a good one overall. In agreement with most others Johnson & Paice wouldn't have made my selection for various reasons, and I suspect they are going principally to shore up the perceived lack of experience and won't be retained past this tour. Would have preferred Lindsay over Paice, and although Johnson is a quality club player, he hasn't played since january and not at openside (what he is meant to be going as), I'd have gone for Wallace instead with Fraser injured (would have been interesting if Johnson would have gone if Fraser was available).

The only real disappointment for me is that Kitchener isn't going, I think that lock contingent is lacking in the quality lineout technician front and we need to develop a backup to Parling. This would have been an ideal time to see if Kitchener could step up to the plate, I would have had him in over Attwood.

I guess you can see where Lancaster is coming from, going with faces who have been around previous squads such as Paice, Doran-Jones, Johnson, Dickson, Joseph and Alex Goode. While not wildly exciting in my opinion (some lacking in form, most lacking in quality at the very top level) they offer a stability and a familiarity.

For me now, most of the right faces will be on the plane to South America, injuries permitting, so the important thing is who gets in the first test squad. I'll be interested to see what Lancaster tries to do with his two warm-up games, whether he tries to blood his first team or tries to give everyone game time. Obviously the Barbarians game will be affected by the AP final the day before.

Against the Barbarians, I'd like to see Buchanan, Thomas, Attwood, Kvesic, Vunipola, Eastmond, May and Wade all given starts as they'd all be in my 23 and pushing for starting selection, but (with the possible exception of Attwood) are all uncapped. With the possible exception of Buchanan, none will be in the AP final the day before.

Against the South American XV, I'd like to see as close as we can to the test 23 get a run-out. Start the tour right with a big win and a big performance and more importantly allow combinations time to gel. Depending on performances in the Barbarians game, my 23 for this game would look something like:

Corbs, Buchanan, Wilson, Launchbury, Attwood, Wood (C), Kvesic, Morgan
Wigglesworth, Burns, May, Twelvetrees, Tomkins, Wade, Brown
Webber, Marler, Thomas, Lawes, Vunipola, Dickson, Eastmond, Foden.

BigWilly wrote:Robshaw might find himself out of the Eng team for good. He will certainly not be called up as injury cover for the lions...R Jones is in pole position there.

Really? Rowntree has said that Robshaw was incredibly close to selection and that he hopes he will be the first player called up in case of an injury.

thomh wrote:

BigWilly wrote:Robshaw might find himself out of the Eng team for good. He will certainly not be called up as injury cover for the lions...R Jones is in pole position there.

Really? Rowntree has said that Robshaw was incredibly close to selection and that he hopes he will be the first player called up in case of an injury.

I'd say Robshaw is in a pretty good position to go as an injury replacement but with Brown and Jones also versatile back-rowers to be called up we can't be sure. Personally I'd have had him or Brown in the original squad over Lydiate currently but all three are good players if fit and on form.

In terms of England I'd say he definitely has a future in the side. He's a natural leader if inexperienced at Int level as seen in the 6N. He's also got a huge work rate which is very important if we want to play at a high level. Looking towards 2015 I'd want Robshaw and Kvesic competing for the 7 shirt and Croft/Wood fighting over the 6 shirt with someone like Haskell or Fearns offering a good utility option in the squad. Alongside Morgan and Vunipola I'd say that we could, injury and selection permitting, have a very good back row on our hands soon.

1.Corbs
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Slater or Atwood - Big lumps who can offer go forward and physicality
5.Parling or Launchberry - Both athletic players with great work rate, Launchberry probably bit better round the park, Parling stronger in set-piece
6.Croft or Wood - One a good line out option the other exceptional in that area. Both have very high work rates with Wood better in defence and Croft stronger in attack with his pace.
7.Robshaw or Kvesic
8.Morgan or Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Burns or Farrell - Contrasting options in some ways but both very talented and Flood offers a good 3rd option

11.May
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Wade
15.Brown

With Care, Barritt, Daly, Yarde, Foden and Goode amongst others backing up that backline and Vunipola, Marler, Webber, Lindsay, Buchanan, Thomas, etc hopefully kicking on the front row I'd say we have the making of a decent side and squad with Robshaw could fit into well. We do need them playing with a gameplan that will utilise of utilise Morgan, Tuilagi, Wade, etc in attack however...

As I said on the previous page, Marland Yarde probably put in the best display I have seen from a visiting winger to Welford Rd this season. He was quick, strong and always looking for work. Niall Morris who has been exceptional for us this season was really struggling with him.

Yarde has consistently looked one of the best players in the team for Eng age grades. He may not get many opportunities to shine for London Irish but he'll be a quality wing for England.

Otherwise i'm only dissapointed to see Clarke in there, not just for the dodgy past antics but also for his total and utter lack of form or skills. He was utterly anonymous against Quins on the weekend, I literally didn't hear him mentioned once and he let Wallace and Guest do what ever they liked all game.

In fact with his line out skills, pace and power and ability to cover 6 and 8 Guest can probably feel a little peed off.

I don't really get the inclusion of Tom Johnson. He hasn't played since January, how can he be match fit? Perhaps he is still in there so they can use injury dispensation?

To be honest yappy, if Guest had moved clubs when he contract last ran out he may well have progressed further internationally.

Looking towards 2015 I'd want Robshaw and Kvesic competing for the 7 shirt

Carlos, I think Will Fraser and Wallace will have something to say about that...

RE Yarde, Its nice having skillfull players, but you need a bit of muscle in there aswell as this gives you different options. Yarde gives us a bit of both skill with raw pace and power. I wanted him in the squad and am glad he's been selected...a nice foil for the likes of Wade and May.

Yarde might not have scored many tries, but look how many Irish scored in general. For most of the season their pack was on the backfoot. Elliott has scored a lot for Saints but for example he got a hatrick when Saints were dominating Irish at Franklins Gardens. Yarde's stats are probably the best of the English wingers, maybe bar Wade, in terms of defenders beaten, metres made, clean breaks. If he was playing for a top side he would have a lot more tries. Thoroughly deserves his call up.

It might not be a popular idea but I can definitely see Lancaster picking something like:

09. Lee Dickson
10. Freddie Burns

12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Joel Tompkins

11. Mike Brown
14. David Strettle
15. Alex Goode

Cumbrian, sadly I can see that too.

What i'd like though is 11. Yarde 14. Wade 15. Brown (23. May); that would give us a good mix of pace, power and a bit of experience, Brown would be happy to cover tackle for both of those two and could more then cope with the high balls for the back three, allowing the two youngsters to run the Argentinians ragged.

A Brown, Strettle, Goode triumverate shows us nothing that we don't already know, and is a further backwards step.

11. May
14. Wade
15. Brown

thomh wrote:

BigWilly wrote:Robshaw might find himself out of the Eng team for good. He will certainly not be called up as injury cover for the lions...R Jones is in pole position there.

Really? Rowntree has said that Robshaw was incredibly close to selection and that he hopes he will be the first player called up in case of an injury.

He won't be. Gatland sees him as the same kind of player as Brown and Wood and they are both captaining their countries Summer tours. I can see Robshaw losing his England place in theory as well.

Is this side good enough to displace Australia in the rankings?

Surely some of the Argentines need a rest too!

Do people really see Robshaws place at risk?
Are you saying if Kvesic looks the real deal and this back row set up is outstanding...would he not get back in?
That would suggest that an out and out 7 is still the way forward...

Interesting, but i guess no player is irreplaceable.

greytiger wrote:Is this side good enough to displace Australia in the rankings?

Surely some of the Argentines need a rest too!

In a years time, with the lions in the mix, and the new caps from this tour 5-10 caps experienced then yes it certainly could...as long as he gets the balance right. I suspect many answers will come out of this tour as to what we will be looking like in 2015.

Ie Will we have a playmaking 12 (36) or a defensive captain (Barritt)
At 7 will we have 6.5 or will they have decided you must have out and out 7 to compete with the Ozzies and Kiwis etc
Do we play 2 full backs or a quality Fb and 2 actual wingers?
Do we go for an athletic pack...or has he realised that you still need a certain degree of muscle and power in there...

Robshaw's problem (despite his work rate) is that there are better 7s out there, better 8s out there and better 6s out there. England's problem is that they don't have anyone world class in any of these positions so Lancaster has defaulted to throwing in the likes of Robshaw, and to some extent Wood, who does a bit of everything to an ok level. If someone like Kvesic does well against Argentina, Robshaw will be out.

You dont rate Tom Wood?
Sorry to disagree but i think he is a world class 6.

And i think Robshaw proved in the 6n that he too is a top class operator...in fact we genuiniely only missed a bruising 8 as both Morgan and Billy were both out injured

IF Kvesic proves that a genuine 7 is required and he plays superbly this tour then hey Robshaws place does become questionable...no player is irreplaceable.
But to say him and Wood do a bit of everthing to an ok level is wrong...

Disagree... The whole issue (more so with robshaw, I admit) is that he DOES do a LOT of things ok, but DOES NOT do really well the few things a 7 should do. My point is therefore that Robshaw does not even make a list of top three 7s in the uk & ire, let alone the world... Same for wood at 6

Cumbrian wrote:It might not be a popular idea but I can definitely see Lancaster picking something like:

09. Lee Dickson
10. Freddie Burns

12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Joel Tompkins

11. Mike Brown
14. David Strettle
15. Alex Goode

I was expecting SL's squad to be more conservative than it is and so whilst this is the back 3 you'd expect him to pick I hope he surprises us all. Ultimately that back 3 doesn't tell us anything. This is the only chance prior to the World Cup where he'll have a chance to try different combinations. It seems a bit pointless to take the likes of May, Wade and Yarde and not give them a start, but the fact Strettle is there indicates SL has picked him due to his experience and he's likely to be one of the starting wings. I feel this is a real step backwards as Strettle simply isn't good enough; he may have had a decent season, but he still runs with blinkers on and butchers chances too often. In fact, I'd rather have Mike Brown on the wing than Strettle!

What is it that Robshaw does well, and what does he not do that a 7 should?

We'll just agree to disagree regarding Tom Wood...

Just ignore BigWilly lads, he's just looking for a bite. Supposedly a Welshman who's been a member since the beginning of the 6N, but with only 6 posts to his name and principally only on English threads.

11. Mike Brown
14. David Strettle
15. Alex Goode

Defensively that is a very poor back 3

It's pretty poor offensively as well Ruby!

Effervescing Elephant wrote:It's pretty poor offensively as well Ruby!

Yeah, I didn't want to cause offense on an english thread so played safe

Not being anti-english... Let's just wait and see if he's playing for England in the autumn and next year's 6N

Id put my mortgage on it,....the youngsters will be brought through gradually...Robshaw will be there in the AI's...

Yep.

Croft
Robshaw
Morgan/Vunipola

That's the probable AI back row.

Team for the BaaBaas -
Corbis,Pace, Wilson
Launchbury, Slater
T.Wood, Kvesic, B.Vaunipola
L.Dickson
Burns
Foden
Twelvetrees, Eastmond
May
Brown

Team for the Combo side -
Marler, Buchanan, PDJ
Slater, Attwood
T.Johnson,C.Clarke,B.Vaunipola
Wiglesworth
Eastmond
Yarde,
Tompkins, Joseph
Strettle
Goode

Team for the Pumas -
Corbis, Webber,Wilson
Launchbury, Lawes
T.Wood, Kvesic, Morgan
L.Dickson
F.Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees, Tompkins
May
Brown

The thinking behind this is that there are 2 games against invitational sides and 2 test matches. I've tried to include all in starting positions at some point. I think the only one that misses out is H.Thomas but he can easily make appearances off the bench in one of the early games.
I've worked on the assumption that the BaaBaas game is going to be much closer to Test intensity than the S.American combo team.
Hopefully the BaaBaas will pick most of the team that will face the Lions in HK and give England a real high tempo game.
The tests against Pumas should be the strongest side possible - with any players standing out in the previous games perhaps earning a bench spot etc.

I think because we've not seen him play for a month or so now and because his final Eng game was that Wales game. A lot of people on here are forgetting just how good Robshaw is.

He's been one of Englands best players since SL took over. He's regularly got MoM for both club and country and does make turn overs when the game plan allows it and he isn't doing everything for everyone else.

BigWilly wrote:Disagree... The whole issue (more so with robshaw, I admit) is that he DOES do a LOT of things ok, but DOES NOT do really well the few things a 7 should do. My point is therefore that Robshaw does not even make a list of top three 7s in the uk & ire, let alone the world... Same for wood at 6

Wood is fast, strong, good in the lineout, a big tackler, exceptional at the breakdown for a 6 and has good hands. May not quite get as high in the air as Croft or have the bulk of Lydiate but as an all-round player I'd have him down as the best blindside in the Six Nations.

The thing with Robshaw is he is very good at a lot of things, but for me not exceptional at any one thing (other than workrate).

He makes a lot of tackles, but is not a destructive tackler.
He has good breakdown skills but is not an out and out poacher.
He has decent hands but (at international level) tends to take the ball into contact.
He is carries the ball a lot, but makes few big charges.
He is decent in the lineout but not excellent.

Now for me that is not a major issue. I think any balanced back row needs a real workhorse who just gets on and does stuff. I think it works best if that is your 7 and for me Robshaw will be back in position come the Autumn.

whjat is good is that we are perhaps starting to see real competition for places from players who could develop into really good internationals.

Oh and Danny Care should have gone on tour. What will we learn about Dickson and Wiggy? Surely we will learn more about burns if he has Care inside him, rather than a steady eddy who is 3rd choice at best?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do people really see Robshaws place at risk?
Are you saying if Kvesic looks the real deal and this back row set up is outstanding...would he not get back in?
That would suggest that an out and out 7 is still the way forward...

Interesting, but i guess no player is irreplaceable.

Think Wood may end up at 7 then the returning Croft at 6 posts Lions. Which isn't an ideal combo IMO but very possible

Maybe in the new season we'll see how Declanesque Lancaster is in his loyalties.

And Robshaw may come back renewed.

He makes a lot of tackles, but is not a destructive tackler.
He has good breakdown skills but is not an out and out poacher.
He has decent hands but (at international level) tends to take the ball into contact.
He is carries the ball a lot, but makes few big charges.
He is decent in the lineout but not excellent.

LT, Its the sheer accumulation of good traits that marked Robshaw out rather than the completeness of the individual ones.

Something that trailed off almost alarmingly in the late season.

GT agreed - hence why I think he will still be in the team come AIs. Problem when you are an allrounder is that you can start to look ordinary when not on top form.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Think Wood may end up at 7 then the returning Croft at 6 posts Lions. Which isn't an ideal combo IMO but very possible

That was probably Lancaster's preferred combination when he took on the caretaker role - but Wood's toe put paid to it. I agree, not sure it is the ideal combination at all.

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Think Wood may end up at 7 then the returning Croft at 6 posts Lions. Which isn't an ideal combo IMO but very possible

That was probably Lancaster's preferred combination when he took on the caretaker role - but Wood's toe put paid to it. I agree, not sure it is the ideal combination at all.

You'd want to see a prolonged spell of form from both Woods and Robshaw.
And in all likelihood Croft will come back knackered from Oz (as will Cole who is the man that definitely needs resting before 2015).

I wouldn't be surprised if Cockers kicks up a club v country stink before long.

I wouldnt want to see a 6.Croft 7. Wood flank combo.

Wood is sheer class...if we need something else and Kvesic / Wallace / Frasers out and out 7 skills are better then fine we can experiment, but i would say 6.Wood and 8.Morgan/Vunipola is the beginning of a very competitive back row. Robshaw at the minute gives you the workhorse aswell that compliments the other two.
But if its anything its ironically the captains position that is most at threat in the next year.

Wilson has been playing exceptionally well for Bath recently.
I was one of his biggest critics over the last few seasons and dispaired at his EPS inclusion (I saw him a bit as the Tim Payne) of English rugby.
But, his current form dictates his inclusion and I suspect that he would do well if required to step in for Cole.

Wilson was a serious prospect for us, but he seemed to stall a bit after his move to Bath.
Gold has seemingly rejuvanated him (aswell as Attwood) and a top form Wilson finally fulfilling his potential could be a bit of a coup for England.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wouldnt want to see a 6.Croft 7. Wood flank combo.

Wood is sheer class...if we need something else and Kvesic / Wallace / Frasers out and out 7 skills are better then fine we can experiment, but i would say 6.Wood and 8.Morgan/Vunipola is the beginning of a very competitive back row. Robshaw at the minute gives you the workhorse aswell that compliments the other two.
But if its anything its ironically the captains position that is most at threat in the next year.

As we (I suspect) all agree, England next year will be better next year, the skipper's role must go to the most guaranteed player in his position.
Is Cole ready yet and sufficiently verbally competent to fulfil that role?