England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

Aye, it COULD be threatening if the different combinations are playing together and gain confidence in each other.

I personally think Gray is quite an underrated player. He may not be a destructive carrier like Lindsay but he does the basics very well. Saying that, I reckon he might be surpassed by Buchanan in the future.

Yeah Lindsay is defo one to watch if he can get some consistency and play like that. His throwing is worse than Youngs though...or it was. I hope he can improve that.

Im just not a big fan of Gray...though i accept he must be decent playing for the champions etc.

Ah Bucanhan looks quality. Real prospect.

I like Gray, I do, but I just want a 'nasty' hooker, who carries like a brute. Youngs, Lindsay, and Hartley to a degree, do that.

Yeah to be honest Eddie, i probably underestimate Gray. He's good at the basics of his role...and quins are no slouches, in the scrum etc.

But yes i too prefer a bit more confrontation and more dynamism from hooker. ...though i could put up with a lack of carrying and more basic skills if that person was a really destructive beast of a scrummager alongside his two props. The art of actually hooking seems to have dissapeared these days with all the crooked feeds...just the norm.
Having the likes of Mako Vunipola or Marler (if he can bring his carrying game to the international scene) would make up for that lack of carrying.

Hartley seems to have gone the other way from a dynamic ball carrier and confrontational player to one who is pretty good at all the basics and excells in the rucks and breakdowns etc. Yet im not convinced hes a great scrummager as he repeatedly pops up? Though i confess to not being a guru of the front rows..

I thought Jamie George might have kicked on...and wait to see what Webber can really offer.

Youngs probably has this spot at the moment but we need to see if his lack of genuine size could be an issue...which might have been highlighted v the much larger Hibbert....though im not convinced it will be.

Yeh, there's a few peripheral hookers in the premiership at the moment, but none proven to be able to make the step up really.

I really like Youngs at hooker, but I understand what Hartley offers as well. He does pop up a lot, but lot of the time it's when his scrum is on the front foot and moving forward. Not sure why he does it, because he certainly isn't under pressure.

Jamie George is an odd choice. So much talent, and some good experience now under Brits and Smit, but surely it's time to start getting some first team action?? I very much think his future there depends on Smit's retirement plans.

What are the full options at 2? :

Tom Youngs
Dylan Hartley
Lindsay
David Paice
Webber
Lee Mears
Gray
Buchanan
Jamie George
Chris Whitehead
Briggs (London Welsh)

Any others?

Chris Whitehead at Chiefs is very handy, and Briggs at London Welsh (coming to Tigers) was also on the Saxons radar

Thank you eddie. Of all those i have to say the ones who i actually see as potential for the next level is...

Tom Youngs
Dylan Hartley
Lindsay (Possibly)
David Paice
Webber
Lee Mears
Gray
Buchanan(Possibly)
Jamie George (Possibly but time is running out and needs to be 1st choice at his club now)
Chris Whitehead
Briggs (London Welsh)

Chris Whitehead has only just come back from injury, he is very good though. I quite like his radio show.

Completely agree GF

I think Webber's injury came at a very unfortunate time for him, and the England pecking order has certainly changed. He also doesn't look too match fit...?

Gray is a very good club player, but I can't see him doing much more.

I would love to see Lindsay kick on this summer, especially with his throwing!

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Chris Whitehead has only just come back from injury, he is very good though. I quite like his radio show.

He was being touted for last summer's SA tour wasn't he EE? I remember Baxter being incredulous at his exclusion

Not sure how the South Africans would have taken his earthy banter, are the radio stations in SA all English speaking or are some Afrikaans only? If he does go to Argentina he'll have to be careful what he says on their radio stations as El Presidente is a nutter.

Effervescing Elephant.


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I'm confused.

Sorry mate.
He's been presenting a radio show in Exeter for a while now (the Pow Wow..) and has been injured for so long he's more famous for that than hooking. It's also been a very long and boring day at work so i'm dancing right on the edge on sanity at the moment...

Has he? God, had no idea. Might give it a listen.

Likewise with the day- mine has been incredibly mundane. Still, 1 more day then a 4 day weekend!

Yeah it's on Radio Exe Wednesdays at 8pm. He does it with Carl Rimmer. It's really quite good. I believe they do a rerun on Saturdays just before match time. Also podcasts occur. Simply cannot wait for the weekend!!!!

Really don't see the hype about George, he played for Sarries a couple of weeks back when they lost to Sale and A. Looked massively over weight and B. Showed nothing special at all that would set him apart.

I really think the fact he isn't playing is the only thing keeping the hype going about him, if we watched him more often we'd see he was poor.

Oh and I think the centres will be 12. Twelvetrees and 13. Tomkins they'd be a quality pairing.

George could have been good, he always mixed mobility with a fair bit of flair and power at age grade level. I seem to remember him scoring a number of good tries. He just hasn't kicked on at all. Along with Alex Gray he is one the major disappointments from recent age grade teams IMO. Still, he is only 22 so it is a little early to write him off, he doesn't look the most well conditioned of players though (probably never will).

Just realised I'd left 6 empty in the opening post so have edited it to include Brand Haskell there.

Looking at the centres I'd always like to see guile over power as it gives you far more options in attack and therefore makes the side much harder to defend against. For me to pick a power centre I'd either want them next to a very creative partner (i.e. Greenwood/Tindall) or that power player needs to be truly exceptional in the contact area - to be fair Tuilagi is already very strong there so if available I'm happy to see Manu at 13.

For the summer with Tuilagi presumably away I'd love to see 12.Twelvetrees 13.Lowe as they should complement each other very well and actually get some ball to the wings.

Lowe is solid but I suspect Daly has got a bit more up his sleeve.

In theory if Andy Farrell ensures that all the boring Sarries players get packed off to the Lions for Gatlandball then we might actually have a pretty exciting backline.

.....Care
May.........Burns...Eastmond....Daly....Wade
.......Brown

Id like to see a tad more power in there mind Wi11...Twelvtrees at 12 would give that...and maybe a more robust winger...just gives a few more options when skill isnt quite breaking down the defences.

Daley has pace to burn and can kick enormously long and is a match winner, downsides are his defence and decision making but both can be worked on and I think he'd flourish in a young England backline.

lowe is also very quick (fastest player at Quins), has a very solid defence and an underrated off loading game. He'd bring a little more balance and control to a potentially electric backline.

Both would add a lot to the England attack.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id like to see a tad more power in there mind Wi11...Twelvtrees at 12 would give that...and maybe a more robust winger...just gives a few more options when skill isnt quite breaking down the defences.

36 has to play 12 for the whole tour. Any other choices are just silly at the moment when the coaches need to be tinkering with 13 and the wings.

yappysnap wrote:Daley has pace to burn and can kick enormously long and is a match winner, downsides are his defence and decision making but both can be worked on and I think he'd flourish in a young England backline.

lowe is also very quick (fastest player at Quins), has a very solid defence and an underrated off loading game. He'd bring a little more balance and control to a potentially electric backline.

Both would add a lot to the England attack.

Jesus, I had no idea he was that quick! I'm a big fan of Lowe- thought he was excellent on the SA tour midweek before his injury. Good blend of speed and power. He could combine really nicely with 12T as someone has said above.

I'd also like to see how Twelvetrees and Joseph go in the centres too- that could be a really creative partnership.

So in all honesty...who will definately be going for the Lions. For in all honesty...i dont think there'll be massive experiementation.

IMO the Definates are Robshaw, Cole, B.Youngs, Tuilagi,
The possibles...Wood, Parling, Launchbury, T. Youngs

If we go on the basis that those 8 will travel to Oz, then Lancs will pick as many first teamers as possible....for the sake of continuation. I can see something like this taking the pitch for the first test in Argentina.

1 Marler / Vunipola
2 Hartley - Captain
3 Wilson (Henry Thomas getting game time)
4 Lawes
5 Deacon
6 Croft
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Foden
12 Twelvetrees
13 Barritt
14 Ashton
15 Goode / Brown

I hope we see a little more variation in the squad to be honest GF. I'm undecided over whether Ashton will even tour. I think he needs the summer off to go and train hard and rediscover some form.

I hope Burns is given a run out as well to be honest. He should start for me, with Flood there as the experience.

Don't think Deacon has a chance of touring either to be honest. Attwood for me.

Hartley as captain is a good shout.

If Wood doesn't tour he should be captain. I can't see him not going with the Lions though.

I'm a little 50/50 on Burns at the moment, looked great pre injury but now looks massively out of form, would rushing him in to the Internationals help or hinder.

Bluestone, yeah Lowe is danger fast he just doesn't get to show it often being at 13 for Quins where generally we'd moved away from wider attacking play. Probably his best asset is composure, if you watch Quins with him at 13 and then with Hopper you'll see a massive difference in when we run, when we kick and how we defend, Lowe helps settle the backline and get us moving through gears while Hopper runs sideways a lot.

Yeh, Hopper is a little hot headed isn't he? I like him too because he's creative and pretty aggressive, but Lowe is just sound (other than that performance on the wing....we won't mention it)

Hopefully he'll tour.

Out of interest (as this is purely hypothetical) if people were to pick an EPS and Saxons squad at the moment regardless of player missing with the Lions, who Lancaster wont select etc what would it be?

EPS (33)

Prop - Corbs, Sheridan, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson
Hooker - Young, Hartley
Second row - Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Deacon
Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Haskell, Kvesic
Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
Fly half - Farrell, Burns, Flood
Inside centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt
Outside centre - Tuilagi, Lowe
Wing - May, Wade, Foden
Full back - Brown, Goode

Saxons (33)

Prop - Marler, Wood, Catt, Thomas, Knight
Hooker - Gray, Webber
Second row - Garvey, Kitchener, Slater, Attwood
Flanker - Fraser, Armitage, Gibson, Johnson, Kruis
Number 8 - Waldrom, Crane

Scrum half - Dickson, Simpson, Robson
Fly half - Ford, Clegg
Inside centre - Allen
Outside centre - Joseph, Tomkins, Daly
Wing - Ashton, Monye, Biggs, Sharples
Full back - Abendanon, Tait

I expect Will Fraser has moved into pole position for that 7 shirt for the Argentinian tour with his man of the match display vs Ulster on the weekend.

englandglory4ever wrote:"6.Croft- Lineout leader and jumper"

I can't tell you how irritating, annoying and just plain wrong-thinking this sort of statement is. It crops up time and time again.

No6s aren't picked in a team because they are good at lineouts FFS!

They have to be good at ball winning at the breakdown, destructive ball carrying and destructive tackling first and foremost and if they aren't good in those areas then they should not be selected. Lineout work is secondary for a No6.

If that's all Croft is good at then he should not be anywhere near the England squad IMO.

Croft is a key line-out operator for Tigers playing at 6 as well, should he be nowhere near the Tigers squad either?

Look, we get it that you're not a fan of Croft, really we do. Honestly, we do.

Not sure Lawes is firing at the moment...saxons maybe, but not 1st team squad.

Deacon? Id rather go with Slater, Kruis, Attwood or one of the young guns who are performing well.

On the weekend Croft was dominant in the lineout and Parling was nowhere... when Croft went off Leicester lost that dominance and the game turned.

Croft is far superior in the lineout to Parling.... helped by equal height and 2st lighter in weight.

Personally thats where I saw the game lost.

Croft I reckon will tour with the lions anyhow. I'd take him over Wood... he's more polished and his presence allows the team he plays in to field less proficient lineout operators i.e. bigger/more forceful locks which both England and the Lions could do with.

fa0019 why do you think Croft will tour in the really competitive Lions backrow?

I think Gatland will go for Brown,SOB,Robshaw,Warburton,Tipuric and Faletau.

Croft hasn't played much international rugby recently. Fighting for the 6 shirt with Wood should be his immediate priority.

Backrow options for Argentina in my opinion.

6.Croft/Wood
7.Fraser/Ksevic
8.Morgan/Vunipola

Jimpy,

Croft alas is one of those who just divides opinion so much. Everyone sees his qualities...even England Glory...its just many question his skills for that position 6.

Many see the 6 as the tough guy of the pack...the massive carrier, the huge tackler...the animal that is like a machine...The Terminator

Croft obviously isnt that, and the constant argument of his pace and lineout ability doesnt really back up why he should be at 6 over a physical guy like Haskell, or my personal favorite Tom Wood - who can mix it physically...but is also a lineout option.

Now i m not daft...the Tigers of all teams arent gonna have a guy at 6 who cant ruck or do the physical stuff...its just maybe sometimes the way they use him as a big tackler in the backs etc...sometimes raises questions how much time he spends away from the rucks and mauls.

I dont dislike the the guy, he impressed me hugely in last years 6n, so i know he can do it...

EDIT - I also understand that by having him in there means you can afford a bit more balast in the enginer room...

Its the old 'The Ferrari is Useless because the boot is too small' type argument. There is a lot of it about around Tuilagi as well at the moment.

Croft is pretty good all round - just absolutely exceptional at some aspects -but he is not as good in heavy traffic as, say, Alberts - so obviously he is rubbish

Ah im not saying that LIW,

I merely saying hes not your traditional 6 so people question him...and always will. As i said i see his value, and if 'we' being England decide to use him at 6 i wouldnt be unhappy so long as i saw some serious size being brought in to the engine room to cover.

As, personally, having a back 5 of:
4- Parling
5 - launchbury
6 - Croft
7 - Robshaw
8 - Morgan

whilst having many +ves would be lacking a fair bit of bulk for my liking.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah im not saying that LIW,

I merely saying hes not your traditional 6 so people question him...and always will. As i said i see his value, and if 'we' being England decide to use him at 6 i wouldnt be unhappy so long as i saw some serious size being brought in to the engine room to cover.

As, personally, having a back 5 of:
4- Parling
5 - launchbury
6 - Croft
7 - Robshaw
8 - Morgan

whilst having many +ves would be lacking a fair bit of bulk for my liking.

Well Morgan doesnt lack bulk - to be honest all that is needed to get the bulk into that 5 is to replace Parling with an ogre/ Simon Shaw clone

beshocked

He's seems to be playing well (from the weekends match) and has a lot of net benefits. He gives coaches options due to his lineout prowess esp. at lock.
He also was one of the few players who came out of SA with any credit in the last tour.... from a SA point of view he's respected here (the best you'll ever get from a saffa). I think Biltong will also vouch for that.... unlike a lot of players who the NH hail but no one else does.

Same with O'Connell.

I'd take both of them, from what I understand both are well respected by Gatland and co.

fa0019 wrote:beshocked

He's seems to be playing well (from the weekends match) and has a lot of net benefits. He gives coaches options due to his lineout prowess esp. at lock.
He also was one of the few players who came out of SA with any credit in the last tour.... from a SA point of view he's respected here (the best you'll ever get from a saffa). I think Biltong will also vouch for that.... unlike a lot of players who the NH hail but no one else does.

Same with O'Connell.

I'd take both of them, from what I understand both are well respected by Gatland and co.

You would take them instead of whom though?

I think O Connell has a better chance because the 2nd row is less competitive than the backrow.

Croft is obviously a good player but I wouldn't take him ahead of Wood,Brown and SOB as a 6 for the Lions.

He is not a traditional blindside. Sure he's good in the lineout but that should be an additional bonus.

Making a pack with Croft included which is balanced nicely is not easy.

One of the main +ve's coming from Croft being in there means you can build a mean engine room without focusing too much on who the lineout guy will be.
Who then do you pick as monsters in the second row?

O'Connell if fit would be the first lock on my teamsheet. Other locks I'd take are Launchbery, Evans, Gray and then a toss up between Jones and Ryan.

Croft isn't a luxury player, he's decent with the ball in hand, a good tackler and even for his size he no stranger for physical confrontation.

Its about balance and options.

Whats the point of taking Brown and Robshaw for instance... very much the same player. Taking both isn't going to widen your scope.

Wood vs. Croft... well Croft is the better ball carrier and lineout option. Wood probably beats him with his floor work but if the lions go with a traditional openside then here his necessity lessens.

For backrow selections I'd probably go with Beattie, Faletau, Warburton, Tipuric, Croft, Robshaw & O'Brien.

Parling was non existant in the Toulon match whilst Croft was on the pitch. For all his plaudits, England did have the poorest record in securing their own lineout in the 6N.
I thought he didn quite well with the ball in hand but they need a bit more grunt from their locks. Lawes and Launchbery together is also too lightweight.

I'd leave Lawes at home for the summer and get him to work on his conditioning.... too much like a basketballer, in test rugby locks need bulk not complete agility.

Don't get much AP so can't really recommend any others... although on here I've heard a lot about a guy called Garvey?

We're going to be missing a lot of caps/ leadership (had few enough to begin with) with the likes of Chris Robshaw, Dan Cole, Tom Wood, Ben Youngs/ Danny Care potentially away with the Lions. I think we could do with the extra caps/ expeience that Croft offers. I know fringe players are being tested out, but you don't want to be too inexperienced.

Brown can cover 6,7 and 8. Robshaw covers 6 and 7.

Croft just plays 6. He doesn't add balance easily though. That's the problem.

Plus Croft hasn't played much international rugby recently.

fa0019 wrote:Parling was non existant in the Toulon match whilst Croft was on the pitch. For all his plaudits, England did have the poorest record in securing their own lineout in the 6N.
I thought he didn quite well with the ball in hand but they need a bit more grunt from their locks. Lawes and Launchbery together is also too lightweight.

I'd leave Lawes at home for the summer and get him to work on his conditioning.... too much like a basketballer, in test rugby locks need bulk not complete agility.

Don't get much AP so can't really recommend any others... although on here I've heard a lot about a guy called Garvey?

He is a bulky player, but athletic enough to play in the back-row. Some believe he is reaching messiah status like Dave Attwood was a couple of years back.

http://www.rfu.com/squadsandplayers/englandsaxons/mattgarvey.aspx

Cumbrian

I think Fa's talking about him being a lion tourist. Not the England tour.

And Fa, dont mention Garvey...ive said for a long time now i dont understand why he aint in the England sqaud...well actually i know there must have a been a huge bust up during the half time of an England saxons game that Lancaster was in charge of. MOM performance 1st half, never came out for the second...never wore an England shirt since.

Garvey is a monster, with an awesome work rate...defensive leader for LI for two seasons running and LI fans have openly admitted they can cope with losing the likes of Corbisieru going to Saints etc...but Garveys the one that they're all gutted about. That says something.

Some believe he is reaching messiah status like Dave Attwood was a couple of years back.

Cumbrian, guess im probably one of those

..maybe not a messiah, but i would like to see him given a shot. If we were to go with Croft on the flank then he could be a valuable addition alongside say Launchbury. For me its his consistency that is noticeable...he very rarely if ever has a bad game.....something he has in common with Launchbury.

Ah right, I should perhaps read more of the thread before responding. :Doh!:

You're not alone on Garvey; I’d like to see him given more of a shake for England too. Perhaps his time will come again this summer, I will be a bit disappointed if he isn't included in the wider squad.

I just wonder with Slater performing very well, Attwood seemingly finding the form of his Gloucester days, Kruis on the Radar and a few others...maybe he might miss the boat...especially if there was something serious in that Saxons half time.