England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

Barrit is one of the best defenders in the northern hemisphere most people aren't as good as him in comparison, a wilko, barrit 10,12 would probably be the best defensive paring in the world (attacking would be a wee bit further down the list though !) So in comparing 12trees to barrit, billy is definately second best, but he has proven more than capable at defending at international level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Thomh

But players like Brown and Foden ARE the best english FB's imo so im happy to continue with them and work with them.

I agree, my point was that I think one of them will be starting on the wing.

Beshocked,

As i said it was solid...not exceptional like a Farrell, Barritt Defence...however potentially it could be vastly different offensively..with Burns and Twlevetrees...

We need balance.

Now maybe its the tactics that stiffling the team...but we just look so very poor with ball in hand...and seem devoid of any attacking ideas.

I have been a big defender of Barritt (not of Farrell) and think he has been one of the key players for England...but we must sort this midfield out now - and a Farrell / barritt one is not the answer .

Maybe even a Burns, Barritt midfield could offer what we need...balance

I would love to see Burns, 36, Tomkins, May, Wade and Brown play though just to see what they do. We wouldn't lose too much and could fall back on its a development team if they themselves get ripped apart!

But i really dont think a backline of the below would get ripped apart...

9 Wigglesworth
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tomkins
14 May
15 Foden / Brown

Then a full strength lineup

9 Care / Youngs
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 36 / Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 May / Ashton
15 Brown / Foden

has a lot more balanced look about it...strong defence and yet potent attacking ability.

I do like the line ups. It's what a lot of people have been hoping for a think. In a lot of ways I think this squad has the ability to be better than the one from the last 6 nations now. A lot of it is the potential they have though and they need to replicate some of the form they have for their clubs. Really looking forward to it though.

I am expecting to see something like:

9. Wigglesworth
10. Burns
11. Foden
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tomkins
14. Wade
15. Brown

22. Goode
23. May

Big test but also a big chance for Twelvetrees, as the most experienced player in the midfield, to show that he can organise a defensive line. The combination of Burns/Twelvetrees' passing range with Wade's pace and agility out-wide is exciting. When Quins went to Gloucester this season we really struggled at times to prevent guys like May and Sharples from finding space even on first and second phase, and the speed that the 10/12 combo were getting the ball to them in the outside channels was a big part of that.

Are these games televised?

Apparently not ......at the moment

Unbelievable, thanks!

The IRB should have cameras at every internat tional match,whether a broadcaster picks up the rights or not.



For the good of the game.

Id be pretty amazed to be honest if we dont get to watch the games...even through internet streams. There must be someone covering it.

And what times are the games actually on...Uk time?

Sorry Wendy just seen the other thread...

They're all at watchable times not the middle of the night. Don't understand why a major broadcaster hasn't picked them up though. ITV have Premiership highlights, BBC 6 nations and Sky most of Englands matches so you would have thought it would fit their mould and generate interest.

Is there a rule about matches which may compete with the Lions ie Sky aren't allowed to show football matches at 3pm on a Saturday?

Just been reading back through the sort of backlines that people are naming as their preferred line-ups going forward and one thing that is very refreshing to see is plenty of pace on offer in many positions which we've been lacking in recent years.

9.Youngs, Care and Simpson are all very fast and Robson also has pace to burn
10.Burns
11.Wade, Yarde, Sharples are all young and very fast
12.
13.Lowe and Joseph may be down some peoples pecking orders but offer pace if wanted
14.May, Strettle, Monye all quick, quick players
15.Foden and Tait both have raw pace to burn and Brown is quicker than many realise now as well

Throw in guys such as Farrell, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Goode who can hopefully help use those players in whatever capacity and we should have a very fast backline for the coming year. That is also what will make me pull my hair out if we see the below back three come the Argentina tests:

11.Brown 14.Strettle 15.Goode

Hopefully wade and may will perform out of their skins against baa baas that lancs will hav e to play them.

I think full back is interesting. If Tait continues his form, and/or Foden finally finds the form that made him England's most consistent player for a couple of years then Goode and Brown may well find themselves out of the team. Then there is Daly biting at their heals too...

I would qualify what I say that both Brown and Goode have their qualities. Brown in particular is such a strong guy for his size, but despite all the claims about his improved pace I just cant see him offering the same kind of threat as Foden or Tait, because they are faster. And they are both better playmakers.

What's quite nice about these teams is that if we'd been asked at the beginning of the season which players we were really hoping would push for England selection most of us would have included Launchbury, May, Wade and Twelvetrees. After years of everybody changing their minds about who our best young players are every 5 minutes it's encouraging that there's now a more clearly defined group of younger players coming through.

thomh wrote:What's quite nice about these teams is that if we'd been asked at the beginning of the season which players we were really hoping would push for England selection most of us would have included Launchbury, May, Wade and Twelvetrees. After years of everybody changing their minds about who our best young players are every 5 minutes it's encouraging that there's now a more clearly defined group of younger players coming through.

Agreed, I am not sure whether it is because people are paying more attention to age grade rugby or we have a genuine golden generation coming through, but people seem to have been able to pick these guys out from a long way off. If they can be bedded to create a spine for the team good things will start to happen. When I look to the future, I think about who will be around for the next two World Cups and I can't help but think we are going to have a very experienced and still decently aged team in 2019 and after.

lostinwales wrote:I think full back is interesting. If Tait continues his form, and/or Foden finally finds the form that made him England's most consistent player for a couple of years then Goode and Brown may well find themselves out of the team. Then there is Daly biting at their heals too...

I would qualify what I say that both Brown and Goode have their qualities. Brown in particular is such a strong guy for his size, but despite all the claims about his improved pace I just cant see him offering the same kind of threat as Foden or Tait, because they are faster. And they are both better playmakers.

Agreed there lost. There is no replacement for a lack of pace overall in a backline. If you look at the best backlines worldwide on a regular basis, Australia and NZ, they both have plenty of pace in them especially in the back three. I'd love to see a side such as the one below running out next year. The best way for a side to pose a threat is to have players who can both make a break themselves and create one for someone else. The current side has lacked that hugely with Youngs/Care and Tuilagi the only players in the backs I'd put in that category who have regularly played.

1.Corbs
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Slater or Atwood
5.Parling or Launchberry
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Burns

11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.May
15.Brown - but would love to see a return to form for Foden and a continuance of Tait's current form to see them challenge as well

From the above backline I'd say everyone but Brown have a huge ability to make a try for others as well as take a chance themselves. On top of that Youngs, Burns, Tuilagi and Wade are the sort of guys who can make something from nothing. At the back Brown may not have electric pace but has shown, even out of position, that he's now very good at beating the first man then staying on his feet and working through tackles. He's also brilliant under the high ball and has a huge left boot on him.

In the pack the front five would be well balanced offering plenty of grunt plus mobility (but not a lack of one in favour of the other!). The back row also looks very balanced to me with Robshaw offering a world class work rate and physicality, Morgan giving a big ball carrier either in tight or flying onto the ball in the centres, and Croft us gives one of the best line-out operators in the world, a good work rate and electric pace to go with Wade and May.

Carlos do you want to update the OP with the actual squad that's touring mate? Unless that is the squad... but I don't think Lowe is going to Argentina is he?

On the FB talk. I was thinking yesterday that we could well see a backline of:

11. Foden (is he in the squad?)

14. Wade

15. Brown

Foden has the pace to easily cover wing and plays like a winger a lot of the time anyway, the way that he'll try to burn a player on the outside and back his pace over hitting the line at an angle is classic wing play. He is very similar to Cory Jane, Nacewa or Medard.

Wade is a sensation, he can create something from nothing like no one else and get's out of tight spaces like Harry Houdini. Might have a few issues in D and under the high ball, but with two FB's there to support him he should be more then capable. Tackles well for a little'un as well.

Brown is Mr Solid and in his favourite position can cover the high balls, be the last line of defence and hit the line where ever he is needed. Adds a little more power to the back three as well.

I'd then put May in the .23 shirt and keep the Argentinians guessing at where he's going to come on to cause havoc.

Argentina have picked a fairly inexperienced squad,I hope we're not too conservative with our selections

I agree Wendy, if we get the same drudge selections as Brown on the wing...my support for Lancs will begin to wane...

EDIT: I dont want to see Foden on the wing...why when we have the likes of Wade, varndell, May, Yarde etc.

Let Brown and Foden fight it out for the FB spot...

Goode and Tomkins have withdrawn. Replaced by Myler and Burrell.

thomh wrote:Goode and Tomkins have withdrawn. Replaced by Myler and Burrell.

Just heard that on the news. Should mean no chance of seeing Brown on the wing.

Don't see why. Indications are that Goode was only there as a second choice fly half for this tour anyway. Could still see Brown and Foden.

Though I guess if it's those two that Foden would be the one on the wing.

thomh wrote:Don't see why. Indications are that Goode was only there as a second choice fly half for this tour anyway. Could still see Brown and Foden.

Why?
As he played throughout the 6Ns, I would have thought that more likely he was first choice FB but also the FH cover.

Surprised about the callups,burrell plays 12 tompkins 13.
Will eastmond now cover 13 and not 12?
Lowe and trinder can feel very hard done by.
I'm now going to baa baas thread to growl over the other call ups.

Myler......wow

A big knock to fords confidence I would imagine.

To be fair Ford isn't ready to tour, his all round game is hardly AP standard never mind Int.

Your right to say that but he was starting for the saxons this year and I feel it would have been good for him to be in the environment and to get some coaching rather than discarded after one bad game.

Bloody hell we just don't produce many decent 10's!

Look at NZ's production line and then we go Farrel, Flood, Burns...Myler!

And after that it gets worse Lamb, Geraghty, Ford, Clegg, Cips

sickofwendy wrote:Your right to say that but he was starting for the saxons this year and I feel it would have been good for him to be in the environment and to get some coaching rather than discarded after one bad game.

I'm not saying discard a 19yo, I'm saying he's not ready so let him put some AP performances in before making the step up.

Yappy, it wasn't long ago NZ went Carter.......Donald, not much else.

What has happened with ford,hasn't really progressed this year which is a shame.Still as you say he's only 19 let's give him until Christmas then write him off.

I wonder if Heathcote might just be starting to kick himself

Whilst im highly critical of Farrell, he has played some very good games and i think he is suffering a major slump in form. He's only 20/21 so hopefully he can become the controlling FH that Johnny was. Dont forget he was the FH for the New Zealand game that everyone raves about...

Burns hopefully can really become the real deal, and we still have Flood in there aswell, who whilst im not a huge fan of...still has over 50 caps and on his day can be a quality 10...certainly very capable of getting the backline moving....just has confidence issues.

Under that...yeah we're a bit scarce...
Myler, Lamb, Clegg, Joel Hodgson, George Ford, Joe Ford?, Geraghty, Cipriani...etc etc

As for the rest...dissapointed about Tomkins, but yeah maybe Eastmond at 13 now...could be interesting...

9 Dickenson
10 Burns
11 Foden (Not my choice probably lancs though)
12 Twelvetrees
13 Eastmond
14 Wade
15 Brown

It has potential

Dont forget Joseph too Geordie

Yeah i just think he hasnt quite hit the heights this year...hopefull a move to Bath can reignite him.

But i'd settle for him or Eastmond at 13 now that Tomkins is out. Shame for Lowe and trinder...

Thing about 12 Twelvetrees 13 Eastmond means they could swap and it would give lancs a chance to see what Eastmond is like at 12. But Joseph could be electric...decisions decisions.

Im really struggling to pick the team...second row and back row is going to be very interesting...with the exception of Kvesic at 7 is a pretty much dead on now that Fraser is not touring.

Hmmm - I'm looking forward to this tour. Heard a vicious rumour that its not being televised though! Is that true?
If on internet does anyone know what site it might be streamed on?

not a scooby.

Google-fu has deserted me, have tweeted the RFU and asked

Cheers damage - can you post the reply (if you get one)

damage_13 wrote:not a scooby.

Google-fu has deserted me, have tweeted the RFU and asked

I've tweeted the RFU a few times about it now and have had zero response. I don't see the point of an England tour if the fans can't even watch it!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whilst im highly critical of Farrell, he has played some very good games and i think he is suffering a major slump in form. He's only 20/21 so hopefully he can become the controlling FH that Johnny was. Dont forget he was the FH for the New Zealand game that everyone raves about...

Burns hopefully can really become the real deal, and we still have Flood in there aswell, who whilst im not a huge fan of...still has over 50 caps and on his day can be a quality 10...certainly very capable of getting the backline moving....just has confidence issues.

Under that...yeah we're a bit scarce...
Myler, Lamb, Clegg, Joel Hodgson, George Ford, Joe Ford?, Geraghty, Cipriani...etc etc

As for the rest...dissapointed about Tomkins, but yeah maybe Eastmond at 13 now...could be interesting...

9 Dickenson
10 Burns
11 Foden (Not my choice probably lancs though)
12 Twelvetrees
13 Eastmond
14 Wade
15 Burns

It has potential

Burns is good but he can't play FH and fullback at the same time mate...

Oops....meant Brown

Eastmond Wades in and Burns Twelve Trees that are taken away in a Foden Truck - What the Dickenson is going on

Interesting that Burrell, a 12, was called up to cover Tomkins, a 13. Does this suggest that England don't want to stray from a physical presence on the inside channels and weren't comfortable with the idea of playing Eastmond in his club position, 12, thinking more of employing him in outside channels, moving Tomkins to IC if Twelvetrees wasn't available?

I think that generally Burrell is a good call up and a player worth looking at. Not sure about messing Eastmond about too much position wise though and as an outside channel player I would have preferred taking Daly on tour (though I guess he couldn't be called up to England as cover since his call up to the Barbarians).

morning niwatts,
How has Eastmond been used at Bath? I saw him in early matches playing on the wing and have seen him play 12 once.

Prop, the short answer is he has played everywhere.

He started off on the wing and has then moved inside, even playing at 10 for the second halves of the more comfortable Amlin games. Him and Banahan (when fit) have been in the centres for much of the second half of the season, mostly with Eastmond at 12, but in reality they have switched around a bit during the games with Eastmond moving to 1st reciever sometimes too.

I would think Joesph is above him in the pecking order at the moment though?
Twelvetrees and Eastmond in the centres would be 2 distributors really.