England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/videohub/video/clipDeportes?id=1815921&cc=7586

LeinsterFan4life wrote:can anyone give me a link please?

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/videohub/video/clipDeportes?id=1815921&cc=7586

only 5 mins left you are not missing much

Starting 10 for Jeff finalists,beat off the challenge of Ryan lamb

Myler was a late addition after Alex Goode pulled out from injury. Not sure if Goode or 36 would have been covering FH, but it certainly wouldn't have made much sense to add another FB after Goode dropped out.

Given they wanted Flood to have the summer off and to leave Ford to his preseason at a new club, there really weren't that many notable FH alternatives to Myler.

not a bad result for the south american 15. Rugby is really coming along there.

But why not just give Burns all three games? Fair enough if you want someone with experience on the bench put Myler there. I want to see Burns play as much as possible on this tour.

hope we dont defend like that vs argentina though

Cumbrian wrote:But why not just give Burns all three games? Fair enough if you want someone with experience on the bench put Myler there. I want to see Burns play as much as possible on this tour.

It would have been 4 games in a row (including the Barbarians) at the end of a long season and with reduced comparable rest on return before joining preseason. The CONSUR game was always going to have someone different at FH to not overwork Burns and allow him to be at his best for the far more significant Argentina games.

True, but there were plenty of players today that also played against the Barbarians and Burns hasn't actually played for Gloucester since early May. I just don't think Myler is going to be anywhere near the England first in the future and I'd have preferred to see Burns play at least a half.

The question is will those who started both matches (just Johnson & Wigglesworth) also definitely feature for the last two though? I don't think they will.

I think the main thing is they just want Burns to be fresh for the Argentina games as they really want to give him his opportunity on this tour in those matches and what is he going to prove against a side like CONSUR (who also may have been the type of side that was inclined to get a bit hard and nasty with cheapshots like the SA Barbarians sides on tour last year)?

I agree Myler won't be in the running in the future, but then given they didn't want Burns to play all 4, there weren't many significant other options and that it's also about more than the FH, providing a platform for the other players getting an outing to perform, with Myler knowing a number of them and the setup from the Saxons, I'm really not that surprised or concerned that he was turned to after injuries created a space.

For one reason or another my stream wouldn't work
Positives?

Billy V didn't seem to put a foot wrong, Foden looked sharp and the set piece was ok.

Foden on the wing next week or no.23?

The way Daly played Vs England and The Lions I would like to see him around the England set up.

Given how inexperienced the squad is as a whole and how keen Lancaster has been on getting Foden back in the frame this tour I'd be quite surprised if he didn't start, and with Brown's form I expect he'll be on the wing. Whilst I wouldn't be overly upset with that I would prefer to see Yarde given a go in the tests as his power offers a threat in short side attacks that we've lacked in recently I feel.

1.Corbs 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Launchberry 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Dickson 10.Burns 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Joseph 14.Yarde 15.Brown
16.Buchanan 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Lawes 20.Vunipola 21.Thomas 22.Eastmond 23.Foden

That would be my side for next week but I wouldn't be surprised to see SL start Foden and Lawes. I am hopeful that following Paice's fairly innocuous showing today that Buchanan will get the bench sport however.

It is one problem with the current squad that however you look at the selection one of Yarde or May are going to miss out on the 23 which is a real shame. If Yarde starts Foden will get the bench spot I feel and if Foden starts May will get that bench spot. Despite being a huge fan of May I feel he may well have fallen behind those two despite not really doing anything wrong!

hodge wrote:The way Daly played Vs England and The Lions I would like to see him around the England set up.

Agree with that hodge. Whilst I don't think Burrell is in any means a bad player or prospect I would've much rather seen Allen, Lowe or Daly on the tour prior to him and probably Joseph at the moment given his lack of form this season. In fact I'd probably consider all three better players than Eastmond as well. Thinking about it the centres were one of the few parts of this squad I was pretty disappointed with.

12.Twelvetrees 13.Daly and 12.Allen 13.Eastmond/Lowe - that would've looked a much better 1st and 2nd partnership for the tour than what we have IMO.

Agree with that, 12. Allen//36 13.Lowe/Easstmond looks far more balanced

I did not watch much of the second half.

After steamrollering them in the 2nd quarter, was shocked we did not win by more. Who came off the bench and were they an improvement on the person they replaced?

I was just reminded that Billy V is only 20 years old. How big is he going to be when he stops growing?

Anyone know if highlights are posted anywhere yet? I missed the live stream event.

Aside from scoring a try - how did PDJ get on?
Saw that a penalty try was scored and that Corbis was sin binned - was our pack really on the back foot?

Penalty try was from a deliberate knock on by May 2 yards out (hence the YC)

I am still not entirely sure why Corbs was given a YC (dodgy feed - I am not claiming he was innocent of what he did - just not sure what he did) - but it wasnt scrum related.

Scrum overall was one of the more positive aspects I think. One particular scrum in the 2nd half went forward 15-20m with Bully V controlling the ball well with his feet.

Consur looked pretty handy running with the ball when they had a chance, although I think the English defensive organisation was poor. I think it was one of those games where, particularly after the 6 minute Bully hat trick - that England had it won and then thought it was all going to be too easy and switched off. It was all about individuals trying too hard.

propdavid_london wrote:Aside from scoring a try - how did PDJ get on?
Saw that a penalty try was scored and that Corbis was sin binned - was our pack really on the back foot?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22748419

It was May who was sin binned for a knock on and penalty try according to this. It also mentions the forwards were very much on top. Didn't see any of it but so looking forward to the Argies.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Aside from scoring a try - how did PDJ get on?
Saw that a penalty try was scored and that Corbis was sin binned - was our pack really on the back foot?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22748419

It was May who was sin binned for a knock on and penalty try according to this. It also mentions the forwards were very much on top. Didn't see any of it but so looking forward to the Argies.

Both were sin binned

Penalty try was for a deliberate knock on by May, not sure why Corbs was sin binned. We had the advantage in the pack for the most part

I was really disappointed with England's performance last night. Respect to The CONSUR XV I thought the started and ended the game very well, and played with ambition. Their pack was very good, and the had some electric backs.

England's set piece was poor at times, and Henry Thomas' scrummaging looked a little vulnerable at the start. Corbs sin-binning was shocking, but deserved. What was he playing at? I rate him very very highliy, so was expecting his scrummaging to be a grade higher than the oppositions.

Lawes was good in the lineout, but fairly innocuous in the other departments. Myall turned out well, but slipped off a few tackles. He ran the lineout well.

Wood does what he does. Very good.

Kvesic wasn't as prominent as I would have liked him to be. He's playing the link man role well, but I would also like to see him take on the opposition with his trademark bulish carries. Pretty anonymous at the breakdown I thought.

Despite his hatrick, Vunipola disappointed me. He tackled well, but I thought his carrying game overall was pretty poor. He didn't seem to penetrate the opposition as much as we have all come to expect from him.

Was excited to see May start, but the wings didn't really get too much ball. Sublime offload by May for Vunipola's second?

Burrell was anonymous in attack, but good in defence.

Eastmond showed up well, but his physcial limitations were shown when he got bundled into touch in the second half right on the opposotion's line.

Foden was very good I thought, and did his chances of startig the tests no harm at all.

Marler showed up very well too, and put in a real shift in the loose. Made loads of tackles.

Paice. Don't get me started.

Lots of changes to be made I think, and in retrospect I actually don't think this looked like a cohesive England squad on paper.

I dont think Eastmond being bundled into touch had anything to do with his size, but he is small.

I do think he is going to work best matched with another center who is a monster (e.g. Banahan at Bath, Burrell here) but his distribution looked very good. You can see why he might make a good FH -if he could develop a good kicking game. He is someone you want to see with the ball in his hands as much as possible.

bluestonevedder wrote:
Kvesic wasn't as prominent as I would have liked him to be. He's playing the link man role well, but I would also like to see him take on the opposition with his trademark bulish carries. Pretty anonymous at the breakdown I thought.

I only saw the first half - how much time did Kvesic get off the bench?

OK - thanks guys. Glad that the pack went well. If they'd folded against CONSUR then I didn't hold out much hope for the test matches!
I think Gustard needs to work his magic a bit then - sounds like they were rather loose in defence - although hopefully that's down to the mix and match selection.
Doesn't sound like anyone really put their hands up for selection

Test side will probably look very different

lostinwales wrote:I dont think Eastmond being bundled into touch had anything to do with his size, but he is small.

I do think he is going to work best matched with another center who is a monster (e.g. Banahan at Bath, Burrell here) but his distribution looked very good. You can see why he might make a good FH -if he could develop a good kicking game. He is someone you want to see with the ball in his hands as much as possible.

I think a lot of other guys could have finished from where he was, but to be fair, he didn't seem to drop the shoulder.

He showed some excellent footwork, and really nippy acceleration. He would need to work on his kicking game to be a FH, his miss last week from in front of the posts was pretty poor!

LondonTiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:
Kvesic wasn't as prominent as I would have liked him to be. He's playing the link man role well, but I would also like to see him take on the opposition with his trademark bulish carries. Pretty anonymous at the breakdown I thought.

I only saw the first half - how much time did Kvesic get off the bench?

Tom Wood came off at about the 55 minute mark I think, along with two others. KVesic had a decent run out in terms of time, but he didn't really do too much. His link play was good, but no stand out runs or turnovers. He was slowing down some ball at the breakdown, but towards the end, England were getting pretty battered in that department. The CONSUR XV were breaking our line at will in the last 5.

I would like to see how a backrow of 6. Wood 7. Kvesic 8. Morgan gets on against Argentina. I think the work load of Wood would allow to Kvesic to pick and choose his breakdowns and get down to some jackling.

Very harsh to judge Eastmond's physical attributes based on being bundled into touch there. From what I remember he was already basically in touch when he got the ball and had two men pushing him on the drift. I don't think you would find many players that would have got in from that situation.

I liked the fact that he ran from deep and delayed his passes during the game. He reminded me of a rugby league player challenging the line, considering how many league defence coaches there are, this could be a good thing?

Don't get me wrong he had a good game! If you read up I said he played well. From the very limited camera angles, I thought it looked like he received it in field, and was then forced out, but it's hard to tell.

He tackled very well, and that is the more important thing regarding his physical limitations.

Agree about the running from deep and his passing. Running from deep isn't something we've seen a lot of from our England backs recently, so if was a refreshing change. He's very 'in your face', which I like too. Guess it also comes from his league background.

Commentary was feckin' ace!

'Rrrrrrrrrriiiicharrrrrd Wigglesworrrrrrth'

Bill-aye Vuuunipoolaaaaaaaaaa

It'll be interesting to see if Eastmond can play centre at International level from a physical sense. He is after all basically the same size as Shane Williams which is a couple of inches shorter than George Gregan was!

For his size he is built like a tank no doubt but I do fear he may be too small to realistically play centre at the highest level. His tackling is good for his size but there are times in Int rugby given how strong defences are these days when a centre does need the strength to smash the ball up which Eastmond may be lacking.

On the wing he could be an interesting prospect however given his acceleration of the mark and strength in the tackle. That would also be a handy role to fill in the EPS given that we are likely to see 3 FB's in it with the strength in depth there someone capable of covering wing and centre may be in with a shout for the squad.

Without jumping the gun yet (he is still a bit behind and doesn't look as devastating) but I do feel like Eastmond could be our Folau...

I think Eastmond could be a potential great weapon...but i think at the moment i would suggest he has to pass Barritt and Twelvetrees at 12. But he is very different to those, more the creator so if he can settle at 12 for Bath then who knows. Eastmond and Banahan will be an interesting combo...then add Joseph to the mix...

Eastmond definitely has potential, no doubt. I agree with you though king_carlos, in that I would like to see him play against a higher quality opposition before I pass judgement on his physicality. He certainly wasn't brushed off in defence, and his pace means that he certainly takes some stopping. Haven't seen him play wing before, but guessing he probably can? Can any Bath fans confirm whether he has played FH?

Earlier in the thread I posted what Lancaster had said about where he was choosing to play Eastmond.

"He has got great feet and balance and he is very strong and powerful but what he has also got is great timing and execution of his passing," Lancaster said. "His ability to put people through holes is right up there at the highest level and we have to find the tools to allow him to execute that. He has an opportunity to do that from 12. He is different to Jason Robinson. Jason was a strike-running outside back. Kyle is very much a ball-player. He is very comfortable at first receiver and that is what makes him dangerous."

Lancaster is open-minded about where the 23-year-old's future lies. "With a strike-running fullback in Foden you ideally need a ball-player at 12 and Kyle provides us with that," Lancaster said. "I am open-minded about Kyle's development. This is a long-term opportunity for Kyle."


That last part seems to be key, his selection at 12 & 15 are clearly very much linked. Twelvetrees straddles the ball-player and carrying 12 roles, so Lancaster can play who he wants at 15. Players like Barritt, Burrell, JTH & Allen aren't first receiver types and he obviously feels that pushes him down the direction of someone like Goode at FB. If he wants to go more with Foden or Brown at 15 therefore, Eastmond is an attempt at finding another first receiver type player as back up to Twelvetrees in the squad or maybe on the bench in the 23 shirt.

If that's his rationale, I'm very happy to see horses for courses. Though Eastmond could also technically (though I wouldn't) be a playmaker 15

If we're going for all these playmakers...

Wade, and May, Eastmond, Burns etc...then we're gonna be lacking serious muscle...so Barritt needs to play.

There are plenty of option stacking up for the EPS next Autumn with players returning from the Lions, injury and rest periods this summer plus guys that stand out in the Arg tests it could be a very interesting squad. Below would be my hope but given form, fitness, etc it's obviously just speculation for the sake of it at this stage!

Prop - Corbs, Marler, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson

Hooker - Youngs, Webber

Second rows - Parling, Launchberry, Attwood, Lawes or Slater

Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Kvesic, Haskell

Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Dickson

Fly half - Farrell, Burns, Flood

Centre - Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Allen, Barritt

Wing - Wade, Yarde, May

Full back - Brown, Foden, Tait

I know that the 3 IC's will be scoffed at but given the rawness of many options at 13 (Joseph, Tomkins, Daly, Lowe, etc) I'd rather see Barritt move to 13 if we're without Tuilagi. Also I think it's about time that Allen's form over the last couple of seasons is rewarded!

bluestonevedder wrote:Eastmond definitely has potential, no doubt. I agree with you though king_carlos, in that I would like to see him play against a higher quality opposition before I pass judgement on his physicality. He certainly wasn't brushed off in defence, and his pace means that he certainly takes some stopping. Haven't seen him play wing before, but guessing he probably can? Can any Bath fans confirm whether he has played FH?

He has played a little at 10, but only in the easier Amlin games for the last 20 mins or so when the game was already wrapped up. He does however often pop up as 1st reciever, which should make him popular with SL's plans, as he seems to like to have 2 definite playmakers. From a Bath point of view, opinion is a little divided on where he will end up. He is clearly a real talent, but if he is in midfield other selections around him may have to change (or at least the coaches may feel they have to change), for example a possible Bath midfield of Ford, Eastmond and JJ next season might be seen as pretty lightweight.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If we're going for all these playmakers...

Wade, and May, Eastmond, Burns etc...then we're gonna be lacking serious muscle...so Barritt needs to play.

Or Tuilagi of course - if SL sees Eastmond as a playmaking 12 then he could have half an eye on something like:

11.Yarde 12.Eastmond 13.Tuilagi 14.Wade 15.Brown

Wouldn't necessarily be my choice but Manu and Yarde could offer some power if needed along with guys like Morgan in the pack.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Eastmond definitely has potential, no doubt. I agree with you though king_carlos, in that I would like to see him play against a higher quality opposition before I pass judgement on his physicality. He certainly wasn't brushed off in defence, and his pace means that he certainly takes some stopping. Haven't seen him play wing before, but guessing he probably can? Can any Bath fans confirm whether he has played FH?

He has played a little at 10, but only in the easier Amlin games for the last 20 mins or so when the game was already wrapped up. He does however often pop up as 1st reciever, which should make him popular with SL's plans, as he seems to like to have 2 definite playmakers. From a Bath point of view, opinion is a little divided on where he will end up. He is clearly a real talent, but if he is in midfield other selections around him may have to change (or at least the coaches may feel they have to change), for example a possible Bath midfield of Ford, Eastmond and JJ next season might be seen as pretty lightweight.

Thanks bathman

I think the prospect of Eastmond and Joseph in the same back line is really quite exciting. Joseph seems to have lost a little of his sparkle recently, but I think it's probably due to the fact he was covering 15 for so long at LI. Hopefully next season he'll be back to 13 and we see his magic once again. Eastmond is certainly an exciting prospect for the future, and where he will end up is anyone's guess.

King Carlos

Do you think Parling is the right player for England. He played well in the 6n and is a lion..but i think Launchbury is better...and we need more of a bruiser like Attwood or Slater alongside him.

Besides if we have Croft at 6 theres no need for Parling...

Dont forget Tomkins is a big guy potentially at 13 aswell...

king_carlos wrote:There are plenty of option stacking up for the EPS next Autumn with players returning from the Lions, injury and rest periods this summer plus guys that stand out in the Arg tests it could be a very interesting squad. Below would be my hope but given form, fitness, etc it's obviously just speculation for the sake of it at this stage!

Prop - Corbs, Marler, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson

Hooker - Youngs, Webber

Second rows - Parling, Launchberry, Attwood, Lawes or Slater

Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Kvesic, Haskell

Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Dickson

Fly half - Farrell, Burns, Flood

Centre - Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Allen, Barritt

Wing - Wade, Yarde, May

Full back - Brown, Foden, Tait

I know that the 3 IC's will be scoffed at but given the rawness of many options at 13 (Joseph, Tomkins, Daly, Lowe, etc) I'd rather see Barritt move to 13 if we're without Tuilagi. Also I think it's about time that Allen's form over the last couple of seasons is rewarded!

Now there's a guy who has been impressing me this tour so far. I think Attwood has been excellent the last two games. Against the BaaBaas he was so strong in the tight, and in defence. Coming off the bench last night he was very good too. He's a hell of a lump, and has really shown what England have been missing. Even better is that he has been charged with running the lineout too. Not sure what everyone else thinks, but it seems to me that locks come in two distinct types: the rangy, athletic lineout caller, and the brute. Attwood seems to be a hybrid of the two.

I hope SL has been as impressed as me!