England summer tour of Argentina

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Updated prior to Consur XV game:

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 18 caps)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain, 18 caps)

Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 11 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens, uncapped)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
Christian Wade (London Wasps, uncapped)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)

With Kearnan Myall and Haydn Thomas added to the squad for the Barbarians game.

Sides for the Consur XV game - KO 19.30

England: Ben Foden (Northampton Saints); Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens); Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens); Joe Marler (Harlequins); David Paice (London Irish); Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks); Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints); Kearnan Myall (Unattached); Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, captain); Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Replacements: Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors) 21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)

CONSUR XV: Tomás Carrió (Argentina); Belisario Agulla (Argentina), Francisco Sansot (Argentina), Juan Socino (Argentina), Leandro Leivas (Uruguay); Benjamín Madero (Argentina), Tomás Cubelli -C- (Argentina), Bruno Postiglioni (Argentina), Arturo Ávalo (Uruguay), Mario Sagario (Uruguay), Cesar Fruttero (Argentina), Pablo Huete (Chile), Tomás de la Vega (Argentina), Javier Ortega Desio (Argentina), Antonio Ahualli (Argentina)

Replacements: Alejo Corral (Uruguay), Óscar Durán (Uruguay), Nicolás Klapenbach (Uruguay), Diego Magno (Uruguay), Juan Gaminara (Uruguay), Agustín Ormaechea(Uruguay), Mosiés Duque (Brasil), Santiago Gbernau (Uruguay)

http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/184014.html

The game contains plenty of developing players on both sides who won't have played together much so should be interesting. From an England perspective I can't to see how Foden does back in the 15 shirt and also really looking forward to Jonny May getting a chance on the wing as I've been pushing for him to be selected all season (and before that even!).

To be completely honest I know little about most of the Consur XV players but as a Tigers fan I'm looking forward to seeing Horacio Agulla's younger brother Belisario on the right wing. I always rated Horacio very highly and enjoyed his style of play so I'm hoping for much the same from Belisario!

How will we know if he will cut it at the highest level unless we actually trial him in an International?

ChequeredJersey wrote:How will we know if he will cut it at the highest level unless we actually trial him in an International?

That's a simple one - You'll never know unless you try him at international level - glad to be of help on that one

Ruby

How do you know he wont cut it on 1 game v the Baa Baas and 20 mins off the bench v a South America select? And you obviously havent seen much prem games as you would have seen he has been very good indeed.

He has to play these two tests...and i also dont buy the idea if we want to win we have to play Johnson? Really? On what evidence?

RubyGuby wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:How will we know if he will cut it at the highest level unless we actually trial him in an International?

That's a simple one - You'll never know unless you try him at international level - glad to be of help on that one

So on that basis, as one player is unlikely to be the difference between winning or losing against the Pumas, why wouldn't we test him there? If he's doing poorly, bring TJ on off the bench? If we just wanted to win without learning anything we'd have brought Robshaw along as a 7!

Calm down - I like this kid and if you read my post that is evident. For me he is a Tom Rees at best and not a Dallaglio; its just my opinion and I have seen a lot more of him that you actually know. Josh Navidi is a welsh 7 out with Wales at the moment and I have the same view of him. Like I said I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong here.

Tom Rees looked pretty good at INT level before injury though!

Well i think Tom Rees would have been sensational but for all those injuries...hopefully Kvesic can avoid those injuries....and TOm Rees was a 7, Dalaglio was a 6/8...so different players...

We'll see what happens...he'll have to contend with Will Fraser and Luke Wallace aswell (aside from displacing Robshaw of course)...but he could leave Argentina in the driving seat for that battle.

Dayglo did start as a 7 though

RubyGuby wrote:On that basis Geordie Kvesic is your man - If you want to win the game against these guys then Johnson it is for me. It just depends on what the priorities are. For me Kvesic is being bigged up by a lot of people and I remain unconvinced that he will cut it at the highest level based on what Ive seen of him to date. He is however a great lad and works well in training so he has time on his side to develop and I would be more than happy if he proves me wrong

Ultimately this is the nail on the head. We rarely disagree when it comes to developing young players guys and i'm always normally in favour. In this instance I don't think it's the right call, as i've laid out in my previous posts for these reasons:

1. I want the lad to develop well at a steady pace. On the evidence so far he's been a bit off form from his Worcester displays. I don't want to drop him in to what will be a heavy forward Test and him get owned at the breakdown and his confidence blown.

2. I don't want others to form a poor opinion of his international credentials on the basis that he might not have a good game based on the evidence thus far.

3. Whilst I think he has huge potential he has not been tested in the same arena that someone like Will Fraser has so far this season. He has not had the chance to build a record of high success against top teams in top competitions. I would like to give him that chance at Glaws.

4. I want England to win the series and that is more likely playing top Test proven players. TJ is that man and those claiming he's only a 6 need to watch more of the man in action and look less at what number is on his back.

5. TJ could well be around for the RWC and is certainly not too old. It is NOT a waste of a development place.

6. There are many many development choices on this tour and some are ready others aren't quite there yet. I don't want those players to be cast aside on one poor tour a la Charlie Hodgson, Luke Narraway et al of NZ 2008.

Chjw131 wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:On that basis Geordie Kvesic is your man - If you want to win the game against these guys then Johnson it is for me. It just depends on what the priorities are. For me Kvesic is being bigged up by a lot of people and I remain unconvinced that he will cut it at the highest level based on what Ive seen of him to date. He is however a great lad and works well in training so he has time on his side to develop and I would be more than happy if he proves me wrong

Ultimately this is the nail on the head. We rarely disagree when it comes to developing young players guys and i'm always normally in favour. In this instance I don't think it's the right call, as i've laid out in my previous posts for these reasons:

1. I want the lad to develop well at a steady pace. On the evidence so far he's been a bit off form from his Worcester displays. I don't want to drop him in to what will be a heavy forward Test and him get owned at the breakdown and his confidence blown.

2. I don't want others to form a poor opinion of his international credentials on the basis that he might not have a good game based on the evidence thus far.

3. Whilst I think he has huge potential he has not been tested in the same arena that someone like Will Fraser has so far this season. He has not had the chance to build a record of high success against top teams in top competitions. I would like to give him that chance at Glaws.

4. I want England to win the series and that is more likely playing top Test proven players. TJ is that man and those claiming he's only a 6 need to watch more of the man in action and look less at what number is on his back.

5. TJ could well be around for the RWC and is certainly not too old. It is NOT a waste of a development place.

6. There are many many development choices on this tour and some are ready others aren't quite there yet. I don't want those players to be cast aside on one poor tour a la Charlie Hodgson, Luke Narraway et al of NZ 2008.

It's ok to have differing opinions - no need to take offence lads

Interestingly, in the Rugby Paper at the weekend, they were chatting to the English wingers about who was fastest, and Wade suggested they add TJ into the race too

Oooooh, Corbs has been called up to the lions. We're gonna miss his bulk around the park

flankertye wrote:Oooooh, Corbs has been called up to the lions. We're gonna miss his bulk around the park

It also means that PDJ will have to be the LH back up

Catt,wood or mullan?
Lancaster has stated he is mulling over calling someone up.
Is that code?

Well Marler starts the tests then. Front row is still strong.
1 Marler
2 Webber
3 Wilson

I'd call up Mullan. He deserves it...and his move to Wasps may catapult him back in to the eyes of the selectors....

I've heard that they are not considering calling up a replacement for Corbs.

Looks like Marler to start, with PDJ on the bench for the tests?

Marler, Webber, and Wilson is a pretty abrasive, and strong carrying front row. Quite exciting.

PDJ will be on the bench anyway, surely, as there are 23 man benches?

ChequeredJersey wrote:PDJ will be on the bench anyway, surely, as there are 23 man benches?

I think now he will be. But before Corbs was called out, I thought we would see Marler and Henry Thomas on the bench, covering loose and tight, with PDJ just missing out.

Now with Wilson and Marler likely starting, PDJ and Thomas will be the prop subs.

bluestonevedder wrote:Marler, Webber, and Wilson is a pretty abrasive, and strong carrying front row. Quite exciting.

I really want Wilson to carry on from his late season form. His carrying looked superb. A front row of him, Mako and A N Other would not be as good at scrumtime and scavenging but would could give us some of the tight 5 carrying I think we've been missing.

Hood83 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Marler, Webber, and Wilson is a pretty abrasive, and strong carrying front row. Quite exciting.

I really want Wilson to carry on from his late season form. His carrying looked superb. A front row of him, Mako and A N Other would not be as good at scrumtime and scavenging but would could give us some of the tight 5 carrying I think we've been missing.

Yeh, he's really found some superb form recently. Loved his carry against the BaaBaas!

So, a TH covering LH, thus defeating the purpose of the 23 man bench! I hope we call someone up!

ChequeredJersey wrote:So, a TH covering LH, thus defeating the purpose of the 23 man bench! I hope we call someone up!

PDJ covers both sides doesn't he?

bluestonevedder wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:So, a TH covering LH, thus defeating the purpose of the 23 man bench! I hope we call someone up!

PDJ covers both sides doesn't he?

In the same way that Stevens does, I think

Hood...for me the first role of a prop is to scrummage...then hammer the rucks, finally a bonus is his carrying.

Hopefully Vunipola can learn how to really scrummage properly whilst with the LIons...as then he could be a frightening proposition.
Likewise, Marler...i think he is concentrating on this aspect of his game at the moment...but we havent seen much of his carrying at all at international level. I hope he starts to show a bit.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:So, a TH covering LH, thus defeating the purpose of the 23 man bench! I hope we call someone up!

PDJ covers both sides doesn't he?

In the same way that Stevens does, I think

Ah, so he's a waterboy that is occasionally turned to in times of dire need?

Are we expecting a team out sometime today? Guessing the evening would be most likely due to time difference. I'm quite excited to see it as without most of his usual favourites on tour there aren't too many places Lancaster can go wrong. Whoever is selected should be decent. Only concern would be if Strettle sneaks into the 23 but given his minimal involvement so far it seems unlikely.

There you go:

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
14. Christian Wade (Wasps, uncapped)
13. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
11. David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
10. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
9. Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
2. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
3. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
5. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 18 caps, captain)
7. Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)

Replacements

16. David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
17. Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
18. Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
22. Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
23. Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)

Pretty happy with that squad, but very disappointed the Strettle has been given a place in the 23, after Yarde has performed much better, and with May available too. Love the backrow.

Buchanan over Paice on the bench ANY day of the week. For the love of god.

Powerful subs too. Imagine Lawes and Vunipola coming on together at the 50 minute mark?!

Excellent, glad Kvesic keeps that 7 spot. Indeed an excellent back row.
Stong second row, and powerful front row.

Backs look exciting...and he's giving the guys who may be a little out of a form a chance...like Joseph etc.

I think we should win these tests...and i think we should see some exciting rugby and tries aswell...

Strettle? Have May, Foden and Yarde picked up injuries that they're not telling us about?

Otherwise decent and pretty much as expected. I'd have probably gone for Foden over Brown and Eastmond over Joseph but those are only minor complaints based more on personal preference than anything else. Should both make a big impact off the bench along with Lawes and Vunipola as already mentioned.

jeffwinger wrote:Strettle? Have May, Foden and Yarde picked up injuries that they're not telling us about?

Otherwise decent and pretty much as expected. I'd have probably gone for Foden over Brown and Eastmond over Joseph but those are only minor complaints based more on personal preference than anything else. Should both make a big impact off the bench along with Lawes and Vunipola as already mentioned.

So frustrating I agree. Far better options in the squad

Overall pretty happy with that selection. Although a Saints fan I'm happy for Brown to finally get a game at 15 (although when 100% fully fit and on form I think Foden in the better player). Disappointed to see Strettle at 11, really wanted to see May given a chance and would have accepted Yarde but can't help but feel Strettle is a conservative safety first selection. Not sure what SL sees in Joseph as yet to really see anything in his previous England games or the few LI games I've seen to mark him out as a true international talent, hope he proves me wrong.

Onto the forwards. Happy with the starting 8, kind of wanted to see how a Lawes/Launchbury combo would work together but Attwood is in form so no real complaints. With Morgan starting and Billy Vunipola on the bench and both out and out 8's then I guess it makes sense for Lawes to be sub as he can cover 6 in case of emergency (note I said emergency). I guess that Attwood is also running the lineout, would have been a lot to expect Wood to captain the side for the first time and run the line. Love the starting backrow, looks very balanced.

Good squad, 21 of the 23 picks are correct in my opinion. Agree with the changes mentioned earlier, I'd have Yarde and Buchanan in for Strettle and Paice bu I suppose Strettle and Paice are there just to offer a bit more experience in case things start going wrong in an inexperienced team.

I hope we can win this test well and then maybe replace them for the second one, possibly bringing May onto the bench as well to give all three of those players a taste of international rugby.

Really excited by the squad though. We'll miss Corbs, but our pack looks really strong and we've got some real attacking talent in the backs.

I really like that pack, in many ways more balanced looking and stronger than the 6 nations one. Attwood and Launchberry is a really exciting combo for me, looking forward to seeing how they do.

Strettle... well you can't have everything can you?!

Haven't they said they will switch the team around across the two tests? In that case, better to give Brown and Foden each a start at 15 rather than sticking one of them on the wing. Hopefully the same will apply for the likes of Yarde,May, Eastmond etc.

Of course, I could have got that all wrong, in which case feel free to carry on!

That is so close to the team I would have selected - barring strettle and Paice.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hood...for me the first role of a prop is to scrummage...then hammer the rucks, finally a bonus is his carrying.

Hopefully Vunipola can learn how to really scrummage properly whilst with the LIons...as then he could be a frightening proposition.
Likewise, Marler...i think he is concentrating on this aspect of his game at the moment...but we havent seen much of his carrying at all at international level. I hope he starts to show a bit.

I know, you're right. A prop who can't scrummage is an invitation for points against us. I just think the one thing England's pack lacks is some really aggressive, effective carriers. We seem to be producing lots of players who can do one aspect very well but not the whole package. If Cole stays as a good scrummaging and scavenging TH and Mako becomes a solid but unspectacular scrummager but top class carrier I'll be happy. Corbs looks like he may provide carrying and scrummaging as well.

The good news will be two props on the bench, i think this would MASSIVELY aid England. Cole and Corbs to take their legs then Mako and Wilson to truck it up! Marler I think may end up being a very good back-up but just below top class international. It's all early days of course.

Cumbrian wrote:There you go:

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 16 caps)
14. Christian Wade (Wasps, uncapped)
13. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 4 caps)
12. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
11. David Strettle (Saracens, 13 caps)
10. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
9. Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 10 caps)
2. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
3. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 9 caps)
5. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 18 caps, captain)
7. Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)

Replacements

16. David Paice (London Irish, 6 caps)
17. Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
18. Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, uncapped)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 12 caps)
22. Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
23. Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 30 caps)

Agree with most that Strettle is not a preference. Would like to see BV come on and have a stormer. I do wonder if Kvesic and Wood is quite light at flanker as a combo, hopefully countered by some good heavyweight carrying from Morgan.

Good side, I imagine Yarde and May will come in for the next one. Awesome backrow.

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