Do the Irish players lack courage?

First topic message reminder :

Before anybody begins jumping up and down having read the title of this thread, let me give some context to the question.

In 2007 England went to the World Cup. In game one we were completely annihilated by South Africa, and there were clear issues within the camp. These appeared to be largely to do with a lack of unity of purpose between the players and coaching staff. The gameplan didn' t suit those pulling on the shirt, and there appeared to be a breakdown of communication with the then head coach Brian Ashton.

Now details differ depending on what source you go by, but what is clear is that the players came together, no punches were pulled and they changed the gameplan themselves. Despite not being a great side by any stretch of the imagination, they somehow off the back of the change fought through to the final, narrowly losing to South Africa. It was not pretty. For many it was anti-rugby, but one thing is clear. When it was all going wrong, as a group, they stood up, decided that the coaches tactics were not going to get the job done, and they changed things themselves.

That cannot be an easy thing to do, as there is a clear risk that going against the coach may lead to you finding yourself out of the side. It takes a certain amount of courage, and also selflessness, as if it all goes wrong, that could well be your international career over. I accept that in a tournament environment such as the World Cup, it's probably easier, as the coach can't really bin player entirely, until the competition is over, but it takes some balls nonetheless.


Now fast forward to 2009. Ireland win the Grand Slam. In the intervening 4 years, they have failed to reach those heights, and there have been many questions asked of Declan Kidney, and his inability to promote an effective gameplan in the modern game. This is something that has been raised by Ireland fans on this forum on a number of occasions, most recently to my knowledge on my Lions thread where this is just one comment pertaining to the Irish gameplan.

theslosty wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:
Squad/Starting

Welsh 14/5
English 9/3
Irish 9/6
Scottish 5/1

I hesitate before asking this question, but do you really feel that the biggest national representation in the test XV should be from the side that finished lowest of the constituent nations in the 6 Nations?

No.

However...

A) Ireland's injury list. Whilst this could be more than a coincidence, and is not an excuse for Ireland's poor show, you'd think they'd still beat Scotland and Italy with a near to full-strength side.
Also, some of the Lions contenders can't take responsibility for the defeats, POC, Sexton, Bowe, Zebo, although it is a judgement call if they can make it for the Lions.

B) Although Irish fans will obviously believe this more than others, Kidney and co. have not given Ireland an effective gameplan, particularly in attack, and have no clue how to utilise Healy, SOB, POM, Sexton and Gilroy in particular. So I think it is fair to say, to at least some extent, Ireland are less than the sum of their parts.

C) After a couple of rounds of the Heineken Cup, and unusually for Leinster, the Amlin Cup, the players will most likely be playing well again before Gat's selection, whereas the other Home Nations may struggle. Would the 6N still be indicative of form? The bigger question is will the players replicate their provincial form or their national form for the Lions.

I agree with gleesonisgod, Healy and Sexton are nailed on, SOB, Best and BOD are probables, whilst Bowe/Zebo and POC/Ryan have decent shouts.

I've highlighted point B, as it's the relevant one, and to be fair, it is not a point that I can disgaree with. This however leads me to my initial question - DO THE IRISH PLAYERS LACK COURAGE?

I am not talking about physical bravery. Having seen them throwing their bodies forward against France, where they chalked up injury after injury, it would be crazy to suggest that. What my question really asks, is why have they as a group not had the cojones to come together and do what England did in 2007 - CHANGE THE GAMEPLAN!!! Now I do not want this to descend into and England v Ireland debate, so here endeth reference to 2007. The fact however remains that there are players in the Ireland side who are vastly experienced, and could and should be performing better on the international stage than they are. If something is clearly not going right, then you change it. In rugby terms, if the coach cannot or will not see that, then the players have to be brave and make a stand. These guys have not. Therefore I have to conclude by answering my own question in the positive, yes they do lack courage, otherwise they would have done something about their own underachievement over the past 4 years.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:
i think you are spot on their dave. good post. Kidney is definitely accountable. the ireland job just didnt work for him. we have remember though that he is a good coach and has proved this at munster

Has he though? Or did the players and coaches he had mask his tactical weaknesses? He went to Leinster and failed and won a GS with a team he inherited from EOS.

I don't believe he is a good coach or ever has been, he's a good motivator and man manager but he's lacking in too many other aspects to be a good coach.

Kidney built a way to win with Munster, those tactitcs maximised the talents they had with ROG and the pack. He failed to develop his tactics or move post his old style but at Musnter he did a good job.


Hard for us to say if the guy s a good motivator unless we've actually been in the dressing room with him, but the reports are good on that front.

Thomond wrote:Kidney built a way to win with Munster, those tactitcs maximised the talents they had with ROG and the pack. He failed to develop his tactics or move post his old style but at Musnter he did a good job.

He left Munster with an aging side and in a worse place than he found it so no I don't believe he did a good job at all. McGahan carried him tactically in the latter days and then was left with a mess after Kidney left.

The mark of a good coach isn't just the trophies they win but the legacy they leave behind.

rodders wrote:

Thomond wrote:Kidney built a way to win with Munster, those tactitcs maximised the talents they had with ROG and the pack. He failed to develop his tactics or move post his old style but at Musnter he did a good job.

He left Munster with an aging side and in a worse place than he found it so no I don't believe he did a good job at all. McGahan carried him tactically in the latter days and then was left with a mess after Kidney left.

The mark of a good coach isn't just the trophies they win but the legacy they leave behind.

rodders come off it will you. give the man credit where it is due. he won two hc's and given someone else that credit is unfair. he left that munster team when they were close to their pomp. munster have been extremely unlucky with the injuries they suffered since kidney left and to say he didnt bring players through is just not true.

From a leinster supporter

Let that be the first question on the new application form:

"Do you.....coach?"

I don't think a 'cheerleader' should ever get the job - and that's not me accusing Kidney of being one. That was often the only line of defence used by those who actually supported his continued involvement - he doesn't do the coaching but he can motivate.

Is that really enough in a Professional sport? Some people obviously think so - I don't.

rodders wrote:

Thomond wrote:Kidney built a way to win with Munster, those tactitcs maximised the talents they had with ROG and the pack. He failed to develop his tactics or move post his old style but at Musnter he did a good job.

He left Munster with an aging side and in a worse place than he found it so no I don't believe he did a good job at all. McGahan carried him tactically in the latter days and then was left with a mess after Kidney left.

The mark of a good coach isn't just the trophies they win but the legacy they leave behind.

He wasn't erfect, he could have brought in a couple of new guys but McGahan was the guy who needed to rebuild in aroudn 2009/10, he ignored it until he had to face it, McGahan is the man guy who should have been rebuilding, Kidney could have helped but that is more on Dumper then Kidney

Bit late to the party lads and didn't read through everything but....

I do believe that O'Driscoll, Sexton, Kearney (I know Sexton wasn't there for all of it) should have stood up to Kidney and said that they were not happy and that they were going to change things on the attacking front.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Bit late to the party lads and didn't read through everything but....

I do believe that O'Driscoll, Sexton, Kearney (I know Sexton wasn't there for all of it) should have stood up to Kidney and said that they were not happy and that they were going to change things on the attacking front.

They would have had to change things on the forward play front for that to make any difference.

I think it comes down to the responsibility on Jamie Heaslip to provide that kind of leadership in the pack.

I never think of any Irish team as lacking in courage or fight, but i do feel that DOUBT is one of their greatest obstacles to moving up in the rugby world.

Declan kidney also seems to be a divisive figure, and it seems that many of the top Irish players do not wish to play for him, but lacking courage, no!!