Do the Irish players lack courage?

First topic message reminder :

Before anybody begins jumping up and down having read the title of this thread, let me give some context to the question.

In 2007 England went to the World Cup. In game one we were completely annihilated by South Africa, and there were clear issues within the camp. These appeared to be largely to do with a lack of unity of purpose between the players and coaching staff. The gameplan didn' t suit those pulling on the shirt, and there appeared to be a breakdown of communication with the then head coach Brian Ashton.

Now details differ depending on what source you go by, but what is clear is that the players came together, no punches were pulled and they changed the gameplan themselves. Despite not being a great side by any stretch of the imagination, they somehow off the back of the change fought through to the final, narrowly losing to South Africa. It was not pretty. For many it was anti-rugby, but one thing is clear. When it was all going wrong, as a group, they stood up, decided that the coaches tactics were not going to get the job done, and they changed things themselves.

That cannot be an easy thing to do, as there is a clear risk that going against the coach may lead to you finding yourself out of the side. It takes a certain amount of courage, and also selflessness, as if it all goes wrong, that could well be your international career over. I accept that in a tournament environment such as the World Cup, it's probably easier, as the coach can't really bin player entirely, until the competition is over, but it takes some balls nonetheless.


Now fast forward to 2009. Ireland win the Grand Slam. In the intervening 4 years, they have failed to reach those heights, and there have been many questions asked of Declan Kidney, and his inability to promote an effective gameplan in the modern game. This is something that has been raised by Ireland fans on this forum on a number of occasions, most recently to my knowledge on my Lions thread where this is just one comment pertaining to the Irish gameplan.

theslosty wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

gleesonisgod wrote:
Squad/Starting

Welsh 14/5
English 9/3
Irish 9/6
Scottish 5/1

I hesitate before asking this question, but do you really feel that the biggest national representation in the test XV should be from the side that finished lowest of the constituent nations in the 6 Nations?

No.

However...

A) Ireland's injury list. Whilst this could be more than a coincidence, and is not an excuse for Ireland's poor show, you'd think they'd still beat Scotland and Italy with a near to full-strength side.
Also, some of the Lions contenders can't take responsibility for the defeats, POC, Sexton, Bowe, Zebo, although it is a judgement call if they can make it for the Lions.

B) Although Irish fans will obviously believe this more than others, Kidney and co. have not given Ireland an effective gameplan, particularly in attack, and have no clue how to utilise Healy, SOB, POM, Sexton and Gilroy in particular. So I think it is fair to say, to at least some extent, Ireland are less than the sum of their parts.

C) After a couple of rounds of the Heineken Cup, and unusually for Leinster, the Amlin Cup, the players will most likely be playing well again before Gat's selection, whereas the other Home Nations may struggle. Would the 6N still be indicative of form? The bigger question is will the players replicate their provincial form or their national form for the Lions.

I agree with gleesonisgod, Healy and Sexton are nailed on, SOB, Best and BOD are probables, whilst Bowe/Zebo and POC/Ryan have decent shouts.

I've highlighted point B, as it's the relevant one, and to be fair, it is not a point that I can disgaree with. This however leads me to my initial question - DO THE IRISH PLAYERS LACK COURAGE?

I am not talking about physical bravery. Having seen them throwing their bodies forward against France, where they chalked up injury after injury, it would be crazy to suggest that. What my question really asks, is why have they as a group not had the cojones to come together and do what England did in 2007 - CHANGE THE GAMEPLAN!!! Now I do not want this to descend into and England v Ireland debate, so here endeth reference to 2007. The fact however remains that there are players in the Ireland side who are vastly experienced, and could and should be performing better on the international stage than they are. If something is clearly not going right, then you change it. In rugby terms, if the coach cannot or will not see that, then the players have to be brave and make a stand. These guys have not. Therefore I have to conclude by answering my own question in the positive, yes they do lack courage, otherwise they would have done something about their own underachievement over the past 4 years.

Younger?........... we've become greener than a baby's bile in recent months. How much younger do we have to get before we lose the old men tag? I saw an old team playing in the 6N...and it was France.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:There is a winning never say die mentality that we see in Leinster, in recent years Munster but not so much Ireland.

Even Ulster are becoming a European force once again. All these Heineken cup wins by 3 out pf the 4 provincial teams, but only one six nations trophy.

Ireland have a class first XV but lack depth everywhere! Gatland identified this with Wales and in 5 years has given us 2 or 3 excellent players in each position.

With ROG approaching retirement we can see how frail Ireland are on the half backs. Wales have Biggar, Hook, Priestland and a plethora of other tens to call upon. Even double grandslam winner Henson can be added to the list.

OH was a bad example surely. Sexton will probably be starting Lions 10, Madigan beat rabo league leaders Glasgow virtually by himself on saturday and Jackson showed in parts a lot of promise in the 6N. Ireland have three quite decent out halves two of whom just lack experience. I'd rather have Madigan and Jackson than Hook and Priestland and Sexton is better than Biggar even though I think he is an excellent player.

Ireland lack depth at 2nd centre and tight head prop. We have dept at scrum half but none of them are outstanding.

Youth and inexperience are not the same fly.

GunsGerms wrote: Ireland lack depth at 2nd centre and tight head prop. We have dept at scrum half but none of them are outstanding.

They are indeed the areas of weakness - 10 is fine by comparison

Youth and inexperience are not the same fly.

I did a quick calculation of our average caps and ages for the italy game (note this is rough, as I just took the years the players were born in rather then their precise age):

Average Caps for starting 15: 34
Average Caps for 23 man squad: 21

Average Age for starting 15: 27.2
Average Age for 23 man squad: 26.3

Compared to Wales ' team against England:
Average Caps for starting 15: 43
Average Caps for 23 man squad: 33

Average Age for starting 15: 26.6
Average Age for 23 man squad: 26.5

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Age wise we around the same, but Wales has more experience as they trusted youth earlier. And they will reap the benefits of the next few years, while we are a year or so behind, with more dead-wood still to be cleared

Ozzy3213 wrote:What my question really asks, is why have they as a group not had the cojones to come together and do what England did in 2007 - CHANGE THE GAMEPLAN!!!

Good response George Carlin.

Ireland (allegedly) did change the gameplan against Argentina last Autumn contrary to Kidney's plan, so presumably they do indeed have the requisite cojones in attendance.

OTOH it's hard to see apart from the most rudimentary tactics how the players on the field can consistently play contrary to how their coach is directing them - should they be practising backs moves after midnight in secret? (Maybe something they could do in their sleep!). It's one thing to implement a gameplan that suits the player abilities but that also requires the right selection, total team buy-in and practice - lots of practice.

Changing the gameplan needs to come from the coach - the presence/absence of cojones doesn't really feature.

One must remember how big a deal winning the GS was, not just for us but for the players aswell. It would take alot for them to revolt, which I think they should have . No better time to revolt than during WC.

wolfball wrote:

Youth and inexperience are not the same fly.

I did a quick calculation of our average caps and ages for the italy game (note this is rough, as I just took the years the players were born in rather then their precise age):

Average Caps for starting 15: 34
Average Caps for 23 man squad: 21

Average Age for starting 15: 27.2
Average Age for 23 man squad: 26.3

Compared to Wales ' team against England:
Average Caps for starting 15: 43
Average Caps for 23 man squad: 33

Average Age for starting 15: 26.6
Average Age for 23 man squad: 26.5

-----------
Age wise we around the same, but Wales has more experience as they trusted youth earlier. And they will reap the benefits of the next few years, while we are a year or so behind, with more dead-wood still to be cleared

Thanks Wolfball that is the point I was making. Wales and England have young squads but their young guys have already accumulated good experience. We are at least a couple of seasons behind imo.

Which only goes to prove that changing the coach is the biggest single change required.

We have the talent it is not being given the opportunity

Interesting comment about Game Plans from Paul O'Connell in today's paper (talking about Munster).

“You need to play error-free rugby, it doesn’t matter what game plan you are playing, whether you are playing one-out runners or whether you are playing wide or whatever you are doing. I think sometimes when we don’t play well, people just like to blame the game plan for some reason, at the moment, and I don’t think that’s the case.”

“I think we always looked for space,” O’Connell said, “we probably weren’t that good at finding it! “I remember one of the first things Deccie (Kidney) was saying whenever I came into the squad, ‘we’ll attack space, whether we have to kick it there or run it there, that’s what we’ll do’. That’s what Rob is trying to give us, maybe an easier framework to find that space.

“Very early on when Rob came in the biggest thing he was talking about was all about our kicking game, and how a good kicking game allows you find space with the hands easier. “I just think at times we haven’t mixed it up as well as we needed to and I think Rob would probably be the first one to say that as well. It is all positive from the players point of view, from the players I speak to anyway it is all positive. Hopefully it continues that way now as things move on.”

Sin é wrote:Interesting comment about Game Plans from Paul O'Connell in today's paper (talking about Munster).

“You need to play error-free rugby, it doesn’t matter what game plan you are playing, whether you are playing one-out runners or whether you are playing wide or whatever you are doing. I think sometimes when we don’t play well, people just like to blame the game plan for some reason, at the moment, and I don’t think that’s the case.”

“I think we always looked for space,” O’Connell said, “we probably weren’t that good at finding it! “I remember one of the first things Deccie (Kidney) was saying whenever I came into the squad, ‘we’ll attack space, whether we have to kick it there or run it there, that’s what we’ll do’. That’s what Rob is trying to give us, maybe an easier framework to find that space.

“Very early on when Rob came in the biggest thing he was talking about was all about our kicking game, and how a good kicking game allows you find space with the hands easier. “I just think at times we haven’t mixed it up as well as we needed to and I think Rob would probably be the first one to say that as well. It is all positive from the players point of view, from the players I speak to anyway it is all positive. Hopefully it continues that way now as things move on.”

That is interesting because Ireland neither have a good kicking game nor do they attack space.

That would suggest that Kidney is either picking the wrong players or that the players are doing the wrong things in training...or both.

I think the players need to learn how to play heads up rugby (which is the kind of rugby Kidney always coached).

Sin é wrote:I think the players need to learn how to play heads up rugby (which is the kind of rugby Kidney always coached).

I think Keith Earls, Peter O'Mahoney, Gordon D'arcy, Conor Murray, Fergus McFadden and co have had long enough to do that.

If he wants heads up rugby he should pick players who actually play with their heads up.

And who would you replace them with during the 6Ns?

Sin é wrote:And who would you replace them with during the 6Ns?

Madigan, Paul Marshall, Cave, Trimble, McSharry, Marmion, Henderson, Diack, Ronin, O'Donnell, Keatley, A.N Other.... take your pick.....

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:And who would you replace them with during the 6Ns?

Madigan, Paul Marshall, Cave, Trimble, McSharry, Marmion, Henderson, Diack, Ronin, O'Donnell, Keatley, A.N Other.... take your pick.....

god forbid i am about to agree with Sin on this one.

Only two players i would take from that list is Henderson and Madigan, maybe cave too.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:And who would you replace them with during the 6Ns?

Madigan, Paul Marshall, Cave, Trimble, McSharry, Marmion, Henderson, Diack, Ronin, O'Donnell, Keatley, A.N Other.... take your pick.....

Rodders seriously Marshall, Diack are not good enough and I am an Ulster fan.
Trouble is Murray and, as a prospect, Mamion no Irish 9 is good enough.
Also Ronin and Keatley falls short as well

Mind you in Sin e list Earls has been a massive disappointment and McFadden falls short.

So I would take some of your list and some of his

Thats not my list Geoff.

My point is that the players should get most the blame for the failure of this infamous gameplan.

Heads Up rugby gets coached. You'll never get past the fact that coaches are paid to work for a living. Heads Up rugby is a philosophy that if alive on the Irish training ground, it'd be second nature during gameplay itself.

Heads Up rugby is something Ireland have tried a few times when the criticism became steepest...and that's when we fluff our lines most! Bad passing, over-running, knock-forwards, players mis-reading each other in all the 'creative' flurrying etc.

Heads Up rugby needs design work too. But because nobody in camp Ireland seems to be able to get the philosophy up and running............................................. well, we're back to square one.

I think the players are employed by the union to do what the coaches want them to do. And paid well too. It's not up to them to decide the coach is useless and they're not going to listen to him. It's up to the union to decide the coach is useless and sack him. Until then, the players have to keep doing their job as best they can.

Not deciding to lock the coaches out of the dressing room and throw a hissy fit, does not mean they are not courageous. The whole premise of the OP is nonsense.

Anyway, I think people will be surprised by how quickly Ireland will improve with a new coaching team. Even fans of the current one would have to admit it's gone stale at the very least. Some of us are much more apocalyptic than that when discussing Deccie.

And yet, if we were 8 points better per game we'd have won a Grand Slam. That's a challenge but it's not mount Everest.

Coaches are signed to get the best out of the players they have. Kidney failed to do that. The players gave 100% but he failed to get the best out of them.

Sin é wrote:Thats not my list Geoff.

My point is that the players should get most the blame for the failure of this infamous gameplan.

I agree, thats why I am blaming Earls and Murray. I would blame ROG but I'd rather remember him for the good times.

what is heads up rugby?

going out there and playing things how you see it or else a style of rugby based on offloading, moving the point of contact and keeping the ball alive?

If it is the latter Declan Kidney is certainly not a disciple of it nor is Gert Smal.n

Kidney tried for a few games to get us playing attacking offloading rugby but reverted to type after a couple of games. France at home a few years back and we fluffed our lines.

The fact that our forwards pass the ball and offload the ball less than any other pack would lead me to believe we do not play heads up rugby. Also that Conor Murray box kicks almost constantly. Are you telling me that is not part of our game plan?

gleesonisgod wrote:I think we are overrating the Welsh and English sides. A bad Irish team was very close to being in contention on the final day. The irish pack (bar vs Italy for obvious reasons) got the better of their opposite pack in every game of the 6N.

Once Deccie goes I am positive that we will see an immediate improvement.

1. Healy, Kilcoyne, Court
2. Best, Strauss, Cronin, Kilcoyne
3. Ross, Archer, Fitzpatrick
4/5. POC, Ryan, Tuohy, McCarthy, Stevenson
6. Henderson, Ferris, Ruddock, McGlaughlin
7. Henry, O'Donnell, Ryan
8. SOB, Coughlan, Murphy, Heaslip, Wilson
9. Murray, Reddan, Marmion
10. Sexton, Madigan, Jackson
12/13. Marshall, BOD, D'Arcy, Cave, JJ, McFadden, Fitz, McSharry
11/14/15. Bowe, Gilroy, Zebo, Earls, Trimble, Henshaw, Kearney

I don't see why we cannot mount a serious challenge for next year's 6N with a group of players like that. I know some of them are untested at the highest level but I believe they will rise to the occasion.

Sin é wrote:I think the players need to learn how to play heads up rugby (which is the kind of rugby Kidney always coached).

You mean telling the players to play whats in front of them without giving any real specific instructions? It's a paradox. Players need coaching in skills and decision making to be able to improvise. They can only improvise whats in front of them. And they need to have calls and know what players are going to do. And there are clearly conflicting messages between whoever is coaching the pack and whoever is coaching the backs.

Heads up rugby is one thing, no discernible gameplan and visible panic is another thing entirely.

The bottom line is that the irish players are not as talented as their one eyed supporters would like to believe.

Johnny Sexton is the only irish player likely to be selected in the lions test xv this summer, although even he is vastly overrated and still unproven at international level.

Sean O'Brien and Cian Healy may make the bench as impact players. Otherwise the irish squad is very ordinary assuming odriscoll is set to retire.

Scrumdown wrote:The bottom line is that the irish players are not as talented as their one eyed supporters would like to believe.

Johnny Sexton is the only irish player likely to be selected in the lions test xv this summer, although even he is vastly overrated and still unproven at international level.

Sean O'Brien and Cian Healy may make the bench as impact players. Otherwise the irish squad is very ordinary assuming odriscoll is set to retire.

Seconded.

Healy, Sexton, SOB, Best, BOD will defintely go and all could start.
Who is Healy behind
Who is Best behind
Who is BOD behind
Who is a better 6 than SOB
Who is a better 10 than Sexton

Only lack of game time will deny POC and Bowe
Zebo has every chance if fit a well
Ryan, Kearney, Heaslip have a chance
Marshall could be a bolter

So my guess would be about 7

Ireland problem, beside poor coaching, is a lack of class/cover in certain areas
Very poor at TH
After POC and Ryan not great in the 2nd Row.
Henry who is a decent HC standard player is the best 7
Poor at 9
Lack of experience behind Sexton at 10
No cover for BOD

There is a core of quality but a few injuries and the gaps appear

Cian Healy "might" make the bench?

lets give deccie another 4 years so

We simply must know our place. God willing we can get the wooden spoon next year.

I have no doubt that a change of management will get us back on track. We may not be world beaters but hey presto neither are our other northern hemisphere rivals no matter how highly they rate themselves.

Wales may rule the 6 nations but they have beaten nobody in the Southern Hemisphere in a big game. They played extremely well in 1 game this year but lets not get carried away about their ability.

England are young strong and dour. We lost narrowly to them playing like drains.

there are enough decent players in Ireland to be in contention for Triple Crowns and Grand Slams on a regular basis.

On our 2nd row issues.8 have advocated moving henderson in there due to our lack of mobility in the tight 5 but with ferris rumoured to be off is he destined to be at 6 from here on?

Henderson will be a 6 at Ulster for, at least, next year.

Could find himself in the 2nd Row for Ireland and at 6 for Ulster

Is that really feasible though geoff? I agree, no ferris means he has to be used at 6 for ulster

spot on geoff. have a word with rodders. He has gone dark and lost all hope. Hopefully its just the weather

Kearneys form has been so poor he is in danger of missing the trip altogether no issues there. SOB has been ok and is no longer guranteed a start.

I would have Hibberd over Best primarily due to then line out. Its not that Best misses a few but they always seem to come at the most frustrating times in games i.e we are under the cosh win a turnover penalty, great touch finder by out half into oppostion 22 boom line out botched. He is class in the lose and defensively

As for Sexton being miles off international class. Name me better fly halves in international rugby with the obvious exception of a Mr Dan Carter.

Sexton should be your captain for a start

geoff998rugby wrote:Healy, Sexton, SOB, Best, BOD will defintely go and all could start.
Who is Healy behind
Who is Best behind
Who is BOD behind
Who is a better 6 than SOB
Who is a better 10 than Sexton

Only lack of game time will deny POC and Bowe
Zebo has every chance if fit a well
Ryan, Kearney, Heaslip have a chance
Marshall could be a bolter

So my guess would be about 7

Ireland problem, beside poor coaching, is a lack of class/cover in certain areas
Very poor at TH
After POC and Ryan not great in the 2nd Row.
Henry who is a decent HC standard player is the best 7
Poor at 9
Lack of experience behind Sexton at 10
No cover for BOD

There is a core of quality but a few injuries and the gaps appear

Healy is behind g jenkins and will be competing with vunipola for a bench spot.
Best is behind hibbard and the hard grounds in australia will suit tom youngs.
Obrien will lose out to one of woods, warburton, lydiate and robshaw.
Odriscoll hasn't done anything since the wales game to justify selection.
Sexton would be my pick at 10.

Only a one eyed irishman would pick luke marshall as their lions bolter. He's not even first choice at ulster!What about ashley beck? Twelvetrees?

Scrumdown wrote:

Healy is behind g jenkins and will be competing with vunipola for a bench spot.
Best is behind hibbard and the hard grounds in australia will suit tom youngs.
Obrien will lose out to one of woods, warburton, lydiate and robshaw.
Odriscoll hasn't done anything since the wales game to justify selection.
Sexton would be my pick at 10.

Only a one eyed irishman would pick luke marshall as their lions bolter. He's not even first choice at ulster!What about ashley beck? Twelvetrees?

What about Gatland? A one eyed New Zealander? Gatland will decide what Irish man or men he takes with him...and he'll decide if they play in the tests...and I doubt if he'll be ringing you for advice on any of it, scrum

But if you turn out to be right and Sexton is our only call from Lions Head Office ...then you just go ahead and enjoy your British Lions jaunt downunder - we don't really belong at that party anyway, do we? Don't worry about us, we'll look after ourselves.

lydiate like ferris has had an injury ravaged season. cannot see him travelling

If hard grounds suit the carrying of Tom Youngs they will certainly suit the Tullow tank. Id start with Warburton,Tipuric,Faletau with SOB on the bench. It is harsh on Robshaw but SOB would be a better impact sub and more explosive. Robshaw to captain the midweek team.

ODriscoll should start due to lack of real class in alternatives even though he is on his last legs. Who will partner him is still up for grabs. Still lots of rugby to be played. Tuilagi,Roberts,Twelvetrees,Barrit are in the reckoning. Marshall is definitely a bolter for me solid player and a good footballer. Barrit,Roberts and Tuilagi for all of their power are limited players

Marshall shouldn't be anywhere near the Lions. Surely it is obvious that the Lions need big men running straight, rather than someone who can step their opposite number and add some footballing ability?

The Aussies like the League version of the game and a 3/4 line of Cuthbert, Roberts, Tuilagi, North should endear the visitors to the locals - especially with the scoreline.


Anyway back on thread, I heard there is a strong likelihood that Les Kiss will look after the summer tour. The players really rate him so the question is do they have the courage to follow his gameplan, and maybe he will be kept a la Lancaster?

dublin_dave wrote:

Kearneys form has been so poor he is in danger of missing the trip altogether no issues there. SOB has been ok and is no longer guranteed a start.

Whilst I agree he may struggle to make the plane, when you think about it his form hasn't been all that bad. He's hardly shone but how many mistakes can you think of that he's actually made?

I reckon if we didn't expect him to continue his 2011/2012 form, he would have been labelled as solid this year, rather than very poor.

I think courage is the wrong word. For too long Ireland have relied on certain players, after 2009 they should have looked at their squad found the players that wouldn't take them to the next level and replace them with younger, hungrier players who would bring youthful exuberance and learn from the experience of older players. Instead they had a group of players mainly over 28 who were very experienced and canny as well as very gifted but they struggled against younger, fitter teams such as Wales and England last year. This year they have struggled because they have had a large amount of injuries, I expect every team would finish very low if they had that many; the difference is that the player that came in are Ireland's future and, as yet, aren't anywhere near as good but they also all came in at once, Paddy Jackson made his debut next to another debutant. Many players in Ireland are 24/25 and have very few caps whereas in any other nation they would have 20 or 30, instead good squad players were brought in.
AN example is Ian Madigan who has been superb for the last two seasons for Leinster, yet Ronan O'Gara, who seems to have lost his legs and mind (whatever mind he ever had considering his antics), continued to be picked and it took several injuries for Madigan to get a chance.
Courage is a different matter entirely, they lost to Scotland, England and Italy - Scotland had a far better team on paper yet Ireland dominated, England played the conditions marginally better and against Italy they only lost by seven points despite having forwards playing in the backs and three yellow cards. The players left on the pitch showed tremendous courage, on the matter of the gameplan Declan Kidney was a key part of the grand slam which is probably the peak of their senior players' careers and so they are unlikely to mutinee against him, that's not a lack of courage that's loyalty.

Just reading some of the things that have been said here.. where to start.

Firstly, since when did the welsh and english have such great back lines? Did nobody else recognise the complete lack of creativity from both sides? Davies and Roberts were both shocking this year, easily managed and created little. Tuilagi was disappointing also. England had one fantastic 15 out of position, and a weak back three overall. Wales have a great finisher in Cuthbert, a real world class talent in North (who isn't even been used effectively!) and the extremely solid option in Halfpenny. Though there has already been a lot of criticism directed at Halfpenny for his lack of attacking prowess. Farrell (though improving) was still rather lacklustre going forward and Biggar was decent but no more.

Where is this flair that Ireland seem to lack that these teams have? I really do not know what 6 nations people were watching. To me this 6 nations was a great example of just how woeful the NH rugby is currently. Not just for Ireland (though we are the worst) but the whole thing was a demonstration of poor rugby. A lack of good supporting runs, a lack of any good offloading game (bar Italy surprisingly) and a lack of good games worth watching, frankly.

As for lack of talented players, I see the players I listed above routinely outplayed in club games by some of the players us one eyed irish fans rate highly. There are games where the likes of Cuthbert, North, Davies and Roberts have literally been anonymous, yet they outplay their opposite numbers internationally. What does that tell you?

Do not ignore how easy the transition to the international game seemed to be for the likes of Gilroy and Zebo. For Marshall and Madigan. We have problem positions, yes, but we clearly have stars in the making too. People can try and put them down if they want, but I have a feeling they will be proved wrong.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just reading some of the things that have been said here.. where to start.

Firstly, since when did the welsh and english have such great back lines? Did nobody else recognise the complete lack of creativity from both sides? Davies and Roberts were both shocking this year, easily managed and created little. Tuilagi was disappointing also. England had one fantastic 15 out of position, and a weak back three overall. Wales have a great finisher in Cuthbert, a real world class talent in North (who isn't even been used effectively!) and the extremely solid option in Halfpenny. Though there has already been a lot of criticism directed at Halfpenny for his lack of attacking prowess. Farrell (though improving) was still rather lacklustre going forward and Biggar was decent but no more.

Where is this flair that Ireland seem to lack that these teams have? I really do not know what 6 nations people were watching. To me this 6 nations was a great example of just how woeful the NH rugby is currently. Not just for Ireland (though we are the worst) but the whole thing was a demonstration of poor rugby. A lack of good supporting runs, a lack of any good offloading game (bar Italy surprisingly) and a lack of good games worth watching, frankly.

As for lack of talented players, I see the players I listed above routinely outplayed in club games by some of the players us one eyed irish fans rate highly. There are games where the likes of Cuthbert, North, Davies and Roberts have literally been anonymous, yet they outplay their opposite numbers internationally. What does that tell you?

Do not ignore how easy the transition to the international game seemed to be for the likes of Gilroy and Zebo. For Marshall and Madigan. We have problem positions, yes, but we clearly have stars in the making too. People can try and put them down if they want, but I have a feeling they will be proved wrong.

So basically, its all kidney's fault.

Yeah, I saw Kidney mentioned multiple times in there too.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Do not ignore how easy the transition to the international game seemed to be for the likes of Gilroy and Zebo. For Marshall and Madigan. We have problem positions, yes, but we clearly have stars in the making too. People can try and put them down if they want, but I have a feeling they will be proved wrong.

Bout ye Rors!

I agree that we have some cracking indvidual talent scattered around but for me a lot of it is concentrated into a handful of positions - wing, fly-half - and we have a lot of utilty types who don't seem to be able to master one position - Earls, O'Mahoney, O'Brien, McFadden - they look great some weeks but then are exposed others when taken out of their comfort zone.

In too many posititions we have a woeful lack of quality and depth - namely tight head but also hooker, no 8, lock and we can't seem to find a decent centre or backrow combinations.

Injuries have really hit us hard but look at Wales depth compared to ours. They can replace Warburton with Tipuric, Lydiate with Ryan Jones, Adam Jones with Paul James, Halfpenny with Byrne, Priestland with Biggar - they have depth across so many positions and young players too, crucially with experience.

The reason is the regions slashed their budgets and cleared out the big names and overseas signings allowing the young talent to flood through. The WRU also have had Wales on a tougher international schedule playing an additional autumn international over the last few years. We are miles behind in my opinion.

Scrumdown wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Healy, Sexton, SOB, Best, BOD will defintely go and all could start.
Who is Healy behind
Who is Best behind
Who is BOD behind
Who is a better 6 than SOB
Who is a better 10 than Sexton

Only lack of game time will deny POC and Bowe
Zebo has every chance if fit a well
Ryan, Kearney, Heaslip have a chance
Marshall could be a bolter

So my guess would be about 7

Ireland problem, beside poor coaching, is a lack of class/cover in certain areas
Very poor at TH
After POC and Ryan not great in the 2nd Row.
Henry who is a decent HC standard player is the best 7
Poor at 9
Lack of experience behind Sexton at 10
No cover for BOD

There is a core of quality but a few injuries and the gaps appear

Healy is behind g jenkins and will be competing with vunipola for a bench spot.
Best is behind hibbard and the hard grounds in australia will suit tom youngs.
Obrien will lose out to one of woods, warburton, lydiate and robshaw.
Odriscoll hasn't done anything since the wales game to justify selection.
Sexton would be my pick at 10.

Only a one eyed irishman would pick luke marshall as their lions bolter. He's not even first choice at ulster!What about ashley beck? Twelvetrees?

I think you are wrong on all the first 5 points you make.
Healy has been in fine form, Jenkins has been struggling in France and it is questionable whether he is even better than James
Best offers an extra breakdown operater than will be key
BOD is still head and shoulders the class act at 13
O'Brien offers a ball carrying option that none of the playrs you mention can match - some of whom are not even 6's
Sexton will get picked at 10, better all game than Farrell and no one else has stepped up
Marshall is 1st choice 12 at Ulster and has been since just before Christmas. 12 is a problem position and a number of bolters are possible - Marshall is one of them. I dont think he will go but that is true of all who are bolters - it means a'bolt out of the blue' - hence unexpected

Scrumdown wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Healy, Sexton, SOB, Best, BOD will defintely go and all could start.
Who is Healy behind
Who is Best behind
Who is BOD behind
Who is a better 6 than SOB
Who is a better 10 than Sexton

Only lack of game time will deny POC and Bowe
Zebo has every chance if fit a well
Ryan, Kearney, Heaslip have a chance
Marshall could be a bolter

So my guess would be about 7

Ireland problem, beside poor coaching, is a lack of class/cover in certain areas
Very poor at TH
After POC and Ryan not great in the 2nd Row.
Henry who is a decent HC standard player is the best 7
Poor at 9
Lack of experience behind Sexton at 10
No cover for BOD

There is a core of quality but a few injuries and the gaps appear

Healy is behind g jenkins and will be competing with vunipola for a bench spot.
Best is behind hibbard and the hard grounds in australia will suit tom youngs.
Obrien will lose out to one of woods, warburton, lydiate and robshaw.
Odriscoll hasn't done anything since the wales game to justify selection.
Sexton would be my pick at 10.

Only a one eyed irishman would pick luke marshall as their lions bolter. He's not even first choice at ulster!What about ashley beck? Twelvetrees?

I think you are wrong on all the first 5 points you make.
Healy has been in fine form, Jenkins has been struggling in France and it is questionable whether he is even better than James
Best offers an extra breakdown operater than will be key
BOD is still head and shoulders the class act at 13
O'Brien offers a ball carrying option that none of the playrs you mention can match - some of whom are not even 6's
Sexton will get picked at 10, better all game than Farrell and no one else has stepped up
Marshall is 1st choice 12 at Ulster and has been since just before Christmas. 12 is a problem position and a number of bolters are possible - Marshall is one of them. I dont think he will go but that is true of all who are bolters - it means a'bolt out of the blue' - hence unexpected

It is not all down to Kidney but that would be a big help if he went.

we have seriousl issues in certain positions which are holding us back, as well as poor coaching.

TH is the obvious one but also no adequate cover in the 2nd row or at 13.

its gone stale. his win ratio the last two years is terrible (less than 40% i think) he and his coaching staff have not done enough to deserve an extension. that is the be all and end all of it. They have all done their best to make things work but we need a change

It is not all his fault but he is accountable. I understand he does not do any real coaching but he has failed to mesh the work of Smal, Kiss/Gaffney/, Foley into a coherent game plan that works. He did this extremely well during his time at Munster

We operate in silos when our players take the field in green and have looked disjointed for much of his reign and our rare recent good performances have been based on excellent defence and an improved scrummage.

dublin_dave wrote:its gone stale. his win ratio the last two years is terrible (less than 40% i think) he and his coaching staff have not done enough to deserve an extension. that is the be all and end all of it. They have all done their best to make things work but we need a change

It is not all his fault but he is accountable. I understand he does not do any real coaching but he has failed to mesh the work of Smal, Kiss/Gaffney/, Foley into a coherent game plan that works. He did this extremely well during his time at Munster

We operate in silos when our players take the field in green and have looked disjointed for much of his reign and our rare recent good performances have been based on excellent defence and an improved scrummage.

i think you are spot on their dave. good post. Kidney is definitely accountable. the ireland job just didnt work for him. we have remember though that he is a good coach and has proved this at munster